For those who have tried a niblick

[QUOTE=famousdavis;261369]...or something similar. How did they work compared to a gap wedge? From what I have read, the niblick can be used for both chipping and pitching from as far as 100 yards out. I'm wondering how they perform, specifically from 20 to 60 yards out.

The reason I am considering a niblick is because my pitching game is beyond horrible. I'll be 40 yards from the green and I'll either come up short or hit it 40 feet from the pin. I like the idea of having one club that I can use for all shots inside of 80 yards. If I were to buy one I'd probably get the 42 degree model. Obviously, I wouldn't use it for lob shots.

For whatever reason I have never liked hitting a Cleveland 588 style wedge from the fairway. It just looks wrong to me at address. I like the idea of a wedge with a large sole that I can hit down on and make it stop quickly on the green.[/QUOTE]

I watched a bit of Playing Lessons from the Pros on the Golf Channel yesterday evening featuring short game tips With Raymond Flloyd. Watch that episode, practice some of his tips, and before long you'll be hitting your sand wedge or gap wedge or pitching wedge stiff from 40 yards.

...or something similar. How did they work compared to a gap wedge? From what I have read, the niblick can be used for both chipping and pitching from as far as 100 yards out. I'm wondering how they perform, specifically from 20 to 60 yards out.

The reason I am considering a niblick is because my pitching game is beyond horrible. I'll be 40 yards from the green and I'll either come up short or hit it 40 feet from the pin. I like the idea of having one club that I can use for all shots inside of 80 yards. If I were to buy one I'd probably get the 42 degree model. Obviously, I wouldn't use it for lob shots.

For whatever reason I have never liked hitting a Cleveland 588 style wedge from the fairway. It just looks wrong to me at address. I like the idea of a wedge with a large sole that I can hit down on and make it stop quickly on the green.

Soonerbs and Edgey are your men.

A gap wedge is typically 50-52* whereas that Niblick is more in the 37-42* range I think i.e. more like an 8-9 iron.

On the bright side a Niblick would fit in well with a set of Ping Eye2's.

Edit: just checked the Cleveland website and it's available in 42, 49 & 56

[url]http://www.clevelandgolf.com/US_niblick__niblick_2011__viewProd_wedges.html[/url]

[QUOTE=famousdavis;261369]...or something similar. How did they work compared to a gap wedge? From what I have read, the niblick can be used for both chipping and pitching from as far as 100 yards out. I'm wondering how they perform, specifically from 20 to 60 yards out.

The reason I am considering a niblick is because my pitching game is beyond horrible. I'll be 40 yards from the green and I'll either come up short or hit it 40 feet from the pin. I like the idea of having one club that I can use for all shots inside of 80 yards. [B]If I were to buy one I'd probably get the 42 degree model[/B]. Obviously, I wouldn't use it for lob shots.

For whatever reason I have never liked hitting a Cleveland 588 style wedge from the fairway. It just looks wrong to me at address. I like the idea of a wedge with a large sole that I can hit down on and make it stop quickly on the green.[/QUOTE]

Why not just practice with your 8 or 9 iron? I can't believe the greatest ballstriker on GR can't master a simple pitch shot.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player;261372]Why not just practice with your 8 or 9 iron? I can't believe the greatest ballstriker on GR can't master a simple pitch shot.[/QUOTE]

One of the reasons is that I simply don't play enough. I only play once or twice a week at most. Another strategy I could take would be to never allow myself to have those 20 to 80 yard shots by always laying up to no closer than 100 yards. I don't have a problem with chipping, in fact I'm pretty good at it. It's the pitch shots outside of 10 yards.

The perfect example of what's messing up my game: Long Par 5, I hit a great drive down the middle. I hit my hybrid to a spot in the middle of the fairway, 40 yards from the green. I take my sand wedge out and hit it thin to the very back of the green, 70 feet from the hole. I 3 putt for bogey.

Or, I'm 40 yards out and I hit a pitch shot fat and end up 5 yards short of the green. Sometimes I'm really on with this shot but too often I really have no idea how hard to hit it.

[QUOTE=famousdavis;261373]One of the reasons is that I simply don't play enough. I only play once or twice a week at most. Another strategy I could take would be to never allow myself to have those 20 to 80 yard shots by always laying up to no closer than 100 yards. I don't have a problem with chipping, in fact I'm pretty good at it. It's the pitch shots outside of 10 yards.

The perfect example of what's messing up my game: Long Par 5, I hit a great drive down the middle. I hit my hybrid to a spot in the middle of the fairway, 40 yards from the green. I take my sand wedge out and hit it thin to the very back of the green, 70 feet from the hole. I 3 putt for bogey.

Or, I'm 40 yards out and I hit a pitch shot fat and end up 5 yards short of the green. Sometimes I'm really on with this shot but too often I really have no idea how hard to hit it.[/QUOTE]

I feel terrible that you only get to golf twice a week 12 months out of the year.
I am decent from 20 - 80, but I get to play all kinds of golf, since I have 2 small children, a mostly out of town job, and live in a northern climate.
It's understandable how rust can develop in your short game if you sometimes have to go an unspeakable 4 days without playing a round of golf.

[QUOTE=Horseballs;261374]I feel terrible that you only get to golf twice a week 12 months out of the year.
I am decent from 20 - 80, but I get to play all kinds of golf, since I have 2 small children, a mostly out of town job, and live in a northern climate.
It's understandable how rust can develop in your short game if you sometimes have to go an unspeakable 4 days without playing a round of golf.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you wrote. I would be a much better player if I played 4 times a week and had time to practice. It's good to hear that you get to play golf with your kids, though. Out of town golf is great because you get to experience different courses.

Use a straighter faced club (which a niblick is anyway) and chip and run the ball. It won't take too long to develop touch with an 8 iron. Contact is the key. The higher the loft the more precise the technique has to be. It is much easier not to hit it thin or fat with a straighter faced club.
I have a mate who is a wizard with a 4 iron. He can hit it stone dead all the time from 40 meters.
Obviously sometimes a more lofted shot is called for but many times a pitch and run is the % shot.
I always smile a little when i see the young guns pitching with a high lofted wegde. Unless contact is perfect it is usually nowhere near the pin. Michelson has a lot to answer for.

[QUOTE=oldplayer;261376]Use a straighter faced club (which a niblick is anyway) and chip and run the ball. It won't take too long to develop touch with an 8 iron. Contact is the key. The higher the loft the more precise the technique has to be. It is much easier not to hit it thin or fat with a straighter faced club.
I have a mate who is a wizard with a 4 iron. He can hit it stone dead all the time from 40 meters.
Obviously sometimes a more lofted shot is called for but many times a pitch and run is the % shot.
I always smile a little when i see the young guns pitching with a high lofted wegde. Unless contact is perfect it is usually nowhere near the pin. Michelson has a lot to answer for.[/QUOTE]

Thanks OP. I think I'm going to get a 42 degree niblick and try it for awhile. I agree that running it up to the green is the % shot for someone who plays once a week.

I played a few weeks ago with a guy who bagged the whole set of these. He let me try the PW. Guess it takes a bit to get used to but it was real easy to hit.
[url]http://www.wedgewoodgolf.com/1original.php[/url]

[QUOTE=jmtbkr;261379]I played a few weeks ago with a guy who bagged the whole set of these. He let me try the PW. Guess it takes a bit to get used to but it was real easy to hit.
[URL]http://www.wedgewoodgolf.com/1original.php[/URL][/QUOTE]

One of the guys I plays with is fairly new to golf and he uses this "Black Magic" wedge. It's got a huge sole on it (probably 2.5 inches wide). He's only been playing for 2 years and he's shooting in the 80's. He's a rarity in that he plays smart and lays up when necessary. He truly plays within his limits. That wedge has made a big difference in his game. It's next to impossible to hit fat.

Well, I'm considering something along those lines myself as my iron play lately has been horrible. Chunking/fat and thin have been the norm lately. I'm really getting frustrated and after trying those Wedgewoods, I'm seriously thinking of trying at least a 8 and PW. Anything to make the game easier on the old bod'.

[QUOTE=jmtbkr;261381]Well, I'm considering something along those lines myself as my iron play lately has been horrible. Chunking/fat and thin have been the norm lately. I'm really getting frustrated and after trying those Wedgewoods, I'm seriously thinking of trying at least a 8 and PW. Anything to make the game easier on the old bod'.[/QUOTE]

A set you might want to try is the Callaway Big Bertha 2002 irons. They have a wide sole and are extremely forgiving, while still maintaining a really good feel. Get the set with the uniflex shafts.

[QUOTE=jmtbkr;261381]Well, I'm considering something along those lines myself as my iron play lately has been horrible. Chunking/fat and thin have been the norm lately. I'm really getting frustrated and after trying those Wedgewoods, I'm seriously thinking of trying at least a 8 and PW. Anything to make the game easier on the old bod'.[/QUOTE]

You gotta try one of those Alien wedges. Seriously easy mojo there.

FD,

You need to talk to Edgey about the Lovett wedge.

[IMG]http://www.scigolf.tv/images/LW-LOVETT-WEDGE.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player;261404]FD,

You need to talk to Edgey about the Lovett wedge.

[IMG]http://www.scigolf.tv/images/LW-LOVETT-WEDGE.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Lyle is a sh*t-hot guitar player but I didn't know he put his name on golf clubs.

The bump and run 8 iron from 40 and in is easy, however from further ot it requires touch and bility. Im not surprised chopper davis is getting one of thse chop sticks.

[QUOTE=famousdavis;261375][B]I agree with everything you wrote. I would be a much better player if I played 4 times a week and had time to practice. [/B] It's good to hear that you get to play golf with your kids, though. Out of town golf is great because you get to experience different courses.[/QUOTE]

This is the reason I put the Niblick in the closet. I play all the time and have learned to pitch with my sand wedge or bump and run an 8. The Niblick is mainly a bump and run 9 iron. It takes a little practice, too, to figure out how hard you need to hit each shot from varying distances. Once you get the feel for distances though, it is pretty easy to use. The only thing though, and the reason I don't use it anymore, is because it is not versatile. If you are bumping and running a shot it is fine, but if you have an obstacle in the way and need to get some air under the ball, it will not work as well.

[QUOTE=mongrel;261410][B]Lyle is a sh*t-hot guitar player [/B]but I didn't know he put his name on golf clubs.[/QUOTE]

No he fukking isnt.

[QUOTE=SoonerBS;261413]This is the reason I put the Niblick in the closet. I play all the time and have learned to pitch with my sand wedge or bump and run an 8. The Niblick is mainly a bump and run 9 iron. It takes a little practice, too, to figure out how hard you need to hit each shot from varying distances. Once you get the feel for distances though, it is pretty easy to use. The only thing though, and the reason I don't use it anymore, is because it is not versatile. If you are bumping and running a shot it is fine, but if you have an obstacle in the way and need to get some air under the ball, it will not work as well.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply Sooner. I think I'm grasping at straws here. It's probably some fundamental flaw in my setup that's causing me to mishit those shots. I think part of the problem with my pitching is that I don't treat it as a simply a shorter swing. I think I need to turn my hips and shoulders a little more instead of keeping my body so stiff.

[QUOTE=famousdavis;261415]Thanks for the reply Sooner. I think I'm grasping at straws here. It's probably some fundamental flaw in my setup that's causing me to mishit those shots. I think part of the problem with my pitching is that I don't treat it as a simply a shorter swing. I think I need to turn my hips and shoulders a little more instead of keeping my body so stiff.[/QUOTE]

I don't have all the answers for you. My pitching game is probably the weakest part of my game. My problem is that I don't get aggressive enough with the shot. I am always afraid I am going to fly the green if I take too full of a swing, so I let off and end up short a lot. Whenever I stay aggressive through the ball, I usually have good results.

All of this has got to do with bounce,If you are hitting it thin the reason is the ground is to hard & lie is to tight,and you are using a high bounce wedge,or you are just hitting way behind the ball,or your weight is on the backfoot,which should rather be on the front foot,

Hitting it fat,either your bounce is to low on soft grass,or your weight is to much on your front foot.


easy as that,

[QUOTE=jmtbkr;261381]Well, I'm considering something along those lines myself as my iron play lately has been horrible. Chunking/fat and thin have been the norm lately. I'm really getting frustrated and [B]after trying those Wedgewoods, I'm seriously thinking of trying at least a 8 and PW.[/B] Anything to make the game easier on the old bod'.[/QUOTE]

Don't you need a sex change before you are permitted to bag those wedgewoods?

[QUOTE=oldplayer;261376]Use a straighter faced club (which a niblick is anyway) and chip and run the ball. It won't take too long to develop touch with an 8 iron. Contact is the key. The higher the loft the more precise the technique has to be. It is much easier not to hit it thin or fat with a straighter faced club.
[B]I have a mate who is a wizard with a 4 iron. He can hit it stone dead all the time from 40 meters.
Obviously sometimes a more lofted shot is called for but many times a pitch and run is the % shot.[/B]
I always smile a little when i see the young guns pitching with a high lofted wegde. Unless contact is perfect it is usually nowhere near the pin. Michelson has a lot to answer for.[/QUOTE]

On the courses I play landing the ball short of the green is not a good option as it either hits the soft fringe around the green and stops dead in its tracks or it hits uneven ground and takes a bad kick left or right and ends up miles off target. I always try to get the ball rolling ASAP [B][I]once on the green[/I][/B] but I still have to fly the ball to the green.

I'm a wizard with a 4 iron out from under trees. But hey, I get a lot of practice at that shot! :)

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player;261423]Don't you need a sex change before you are permitted to bag those wedgewoods?[/QUOTE]

I think that is definately fair comment.......
A guy at the club i have played with quite a bit, 12-14 capper, hits a good drive, pretty steady, turns up the other day with a bag full of hybrid irons. Cleveland Hi-bore I think. It just looked wrong.
He said he wanted to improve his game and these were sooo easy to hit.
I just think the whole premise is wrong and I would bet he will only become more of a hacker.
The thing about golf is it demands precision a lot of the time to score well. To play precise shots you need precise tools. Learning to use traditional equipment and get good results is in harmony with the essence of a difficult game. We all know it is a very difficult game to play well.
To try and circumvent this process buy using so called super forgiving equipment is just barking up the wrong tree I believe.

whats wromg with being untraditional?
If something different will improve what you are trying to do, is it wrong? I see your point,being a traditionalist in golf, but there a sometimes physical limitations one can't get over. With my messed up spine, I have a hard time with traditional irons, thus the use of a 3 and 6 hybrid. Much easier on the back for me. So I was thinking it might make it easier to try one of those type of wedges. If it improves my game, so what?

[QUOTE=Not a hacker;261414]No he fukking isnt.[/QUOTE]

I never thought he was either until I was up late years ago watching some Public Broadcasting special show-- maybe Austin City Limits (Austin, Texas). He did like a 10 minute jam with just a drummer and bassist that was mind-blowing. Same with Glen Campbell who's music never really did much for me. Those guys would play the nitro finish off an old Tele or Gibson but that's not what their fanbase cares about so they seldom if ever really play on stage. If you are a six-string player, you'd know what I mean.

[QUOTE=oldplayer;261425]I think that is definately fair comment.......
A guy at the club i have played with quite a bit, 12-14 capper, hits a good drive, pretty steady, turns up the other day with a bag full of hybrid irons. Cleveland Hi-bore I think. It just looked wrong.
He said he wanted to improve his game and these were sooo easy to hit.
I just think the whole premise is wrong and I would bet he will only become more of a hacker.
The thing about golf is it demands precision a lot of the time to score well. To play precise shots you need precise tools. [B]Learning to use traditional equipment and get good results is in harmony with the essence of a difficult game. [/B]We all know it is a very difficult game to play well.
To try and circumvent this process buy using so called super forgiving equipment is just barking up the wrong tree I believe.[/QUOTE]

I spent most of last summer trying clubs to "make the game easier" with "super game improvement" irons; my game deterioriated the whole time until I went back to my more traditional CB and MB irons in the fall. Part of the problem was getting sloppy and lack of concentration with the thinking that "I can hit anywhere on this club face and get it there".

As far as chipping an pitches, for me, the discovery that I was going the wrong way on sole bounce, using less instead of more, has been the enlightenment that I have taken from last years struggles. I lost a favorite wedge two years ago and replaced with one with less bounce and struggled with consistency around the green. Wedges (chippers) like the Niblick, lovett, woodwedge seem to all have a wider sole in common and I would guess more bounce.

Bounce is your friend.

Just make sure you turn your chest, don't take it inside and use some wrist cock. If you need to, keep your weight on your front foot. How hard is that? I haven't broken 100 and I can do it.

A niblick? Seriously?

[QUOTE=JonT;261440]I spent most of last summer trying clubs to "make the game easier" with "super game improvement" irons; my game deterioriated the whole time until I went back to my more traditional CB and MB irons in the fall. Part of the problem was getting sloppy and lack of concentration with the thinking that "I can hit anywhere on this club face and get it there".

As far as chipping an pitches, for me, the discovery that I was going the wrong way on sole bounce, using less instead of more, has been the enlightenment that I have taken from last years struggles. I lost a favorite wedge two years ago and replaced with one with less bounce and struggled with consistency around the green. Wedges (chippers) like the Niblick, lovett, woodwedge seem to all have a wider sole in common and I would guess more bounce.

Bounce is your friend.[/QUOTE]


Mr. T, I agree with thee. Statistically, golfers who shoot in the high 70's and 80's should benefit from a game improvement club or even a super game improvement club. These clubs are more forgiving, easier to launch the ball and should have better results for missed shots. However, human beings are not robots. Instead of having a predictable pattern of both good and bad swings, we tend to react differently based on the equipment we're using at the time.

For myself, the first time I use a set of game improvement irons I hit them absolutely fabulous. I've done this with Callaway X-12, Taylormade Tour Burner and some others. However, as time goes by my swing gets sloppy and I start hitting weak shots to the right or duck hooks with even the low irons. I then switch back to a club like the Titleist 990 and my concentration level suddenly increases and my focus on hitting the ball solidly is once again important.

One could argue that I should simply concentrate on hitting the ball solidly with game improvement irons. The reality is that I don't and never will. To think otherwise would be insanity.

[QUOTE=mongrel;261439]I never thought he was either until I was up late years ago watching some Public Broadcasting special show-- maybe Austin City Limits (Austin, Texas). He did like a 10 minute jam with just a drummer and bassist that was mind-blowing. Same with Glen Campbell who's music never really did much for me. Those guys would play the nitro finish off an old Tele or Gibson but that's not what their fanbase cares about so they seldom if ever really play on stage. If you are a six-string player, you'd know what I mean.[/QUOTE]

Wow I wouldnt have guessed him or glen campbell as axe men. I dont play but know what a guitarist sounds like. Some of the best players out theee are playing in bars for strugglng bands.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker;261461]Wow I wouldnt have guessed him or glen campbell as axe men. I dont play but know what a guitarist sounds like. [B][I]Some of the best players out theee are playing in bars for strugglng bands[/I][/B].[/QUOTE]

That is true and correct. There was a guy who used to play locally and take part of his payment in liquid form. He cut a few records and then finally got a decent big label deal and was on the way to national attention and had made a couple of "Best Unknown Guitarist" lists in the 1980's. Unfortunately, he had always been a bit depressed and ended up shooting himself in the head successfully. Danny Gatton. A good many of those Nashville guys who became famous paid their dues in the studio and that's usually where the best guarists can be found whether its Nashville, Memphis, L.A., New York, London or wherever.

[QUOTE=jmtbkr;261437]whats wromg with being untraditional?
If something different will improve what you are trying to do, is it wrong? I see your point,being a traditionalist in golf, but there a sometimes physical limitations one can't get over. [B]With my messed up spine, I have a hard time with traditional irons[/B], thus the use of a 3 and 6 hybrid. Much easier on the back for me. So I was thinking it might make it easier to try one of those type of wedges. If it improves my game, so what?[/QUOTE]

If you have a back problem and these clubs help than good luck to you. I'm not opposed to clubs that help the average golfer and I'm a big fan of hybrids replacing long irons etc. But long irons are generally agreed to be among the harder to hit clubs in the bag whereas the wedges have the shortest shafts and the most loft. So to me it seems strange needing hybrid wedges. :confused:

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player;261404]FD,

You need to talk to Edgey about the Lovett wedge.

[IMG]http://www.scigolf.tv/images/LW-LOVETT-WEDGE.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This brought tears to my eyes.

Gods own eqpt :cryin:

Got to go, I am filling up with love

[QUOTE=Not a hacker;261461]Wow I wouldnt have guessed him or glen campbell as axe men. I dont play but know what a guitarist sounds like. Some of the best players out theee are playing in bars for strugglng bands.[/QUOTE]

Glen Campell is an absolute BEAST of a player. Before he was starring on his own, he was a Nashville session player for hire, and he had more work than he knew what to do. I've played for 35 years and that guy is legit.

[QUOTE=mongrel;261464]That is true and correct. There was a guy who used to play locally and take part of his payment in liquid form. He cut a few records and then finally got a decent big label deal and was on the way to national attention and had made a couple of "Best Unknown Guitarist" lists in the 1980's. Unfortunately, he had always been a bit depressed and ended up shooting himself in the head successfully. Danny Gatton. A good many of those Nashville guys who became famous paid their dues in the studio and that's usually where the best guarists can be found whether its Nashville, Memphis, L.A., New York, London or wherever.[/QUOTE]

Danny Gatton is still considered a legend and the master of the Telecaster.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player;261473]If you have a back problem and these clubs help than good luck to you. I'm not opposed to clubs that help the average golfer and I'm a big fan of hybrids replacing long irons etc. But long irons are generally agreed to be among the harder to hit clubs in the bag whereas the wedges have the shortest shafts and the most loft. So to me it seems strange needing hybrid wedges. :confused:[/QUOTE]

I'd just like to try out a hybrid wedge to see if it would help me improve my game. As FD originally pointed out, his short game gets sloppy and he's looking for a club alternative - rather than trying to improve his swing (oh $hit I sound like Larry:eek:). While I do believe in my 3 & 6 hybrids, replacing my wedges sounds a bit extreme. But hitting hybrids is sooo much less effort, I put foward the idea that hybrid wedges would be that much easier to hit too.:idea: The HW I tried was something like a 40*. I really didn't get enough time hitting it, but it did plant the thought in my head.

[QUOTE=Yaz1975;261495]Danny Gatton is still considered a legend and the master of the Telecaster.[/QUOTE]

Ace Frehley was a great guitar player. I like his riffs in Detroit Rock City and I Was Made For Loving You. The latter was Kiss' brief foray into Disco but they knocked it out of the park.

Another great guitar player is Keith Urban. Much better than Glen Campbell. Wasn't he some country singer who's only popular song was Rhinstone Cowboy? Where's the electric guitar in that one?

[QUOTE=jt1135;261501]Another pretty damn good guitar player is Kenny Vaughn[/QUOTE]

Is he related to Jimmy and his younger brother, Stevie?

[QUOTE=Yaz1975;261495]Danny Gatton is still considered a legend and the master of the Telecaster.[/QUOTE]

There was a young kid from the produce belt of cental California that Gatton took under his wing when the boy was around 11-12 years old. The child was an electric guitar prodigy. Joe Bonnamassa.

Another pretty damn good guitar player is Kenny Vaughn

Nope. Studio musician who played on that one video I posted with Lucinda Williams. Opie looking guy, now he plays with Marty Stuart.

Vaughan. spelled it wrong.

Carl Perkins, Chet Aitkens, Duane Eddy, Ry Cooder and Dick Dale are just a few of the great guitarists that a lot of younger people never heard. Most of them have their roots in rockabilly and early rock and roll.

[QUOTE=jt1135;261507]Carl Perkins, Chet Aitkens, Duane Eddy, Ry Cooder and Dick Dale are just a few of the great guitarists that a lot of younger people never heard. Most of them have their roots in rockabilly and early rock and roll.[/QUOTE]

In late 1973 (I think it was) I saw both Leo Kotke solo and John McLaughlin with the Mahavishu Orchestra at this smallish club just west of Philadelphia. Both mind-blowing guitarists. The latter with a double-necked electric and about 100 Marshalls with about a million decibels and the former just sitting on a stool with a 12 string acoustic miked to the PA.

[QUOTE=Yaz1975;261495]Danny Gatton is still considered a legend and the master of the Telecaster.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to ths tele they dont come any better than Keith Richards.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker;261514]When it comes to ths tele they dont come any better than Keith Richards.[/QUOTE]

Yes they really really do get so much better than that.

[QUOTE=Yaz1975;261519]Yes they really really do get so much better than that.[/QUOTE]

Keith just doesnt try to do fancy stuff very often. On the rare occassions he decides to open up he can really play. But generally he's more a proponent of the less is more principle. His brilliance is in his subtlety. Im sure the guys you mentioned are also awesome, but guys like keith are underrated cause they play rhyrhm.