Is putting off the green a GR biatch move

Hi

I almost never chip from around the green (I even putt from the long rough beyond the fringe) prefering to go with the old adage "your worst putt is always better than your worst chip"

I have noticed however the really good players (Woods, Mickleson, Daly, Poulter.....whoops, sorry) always chip.

On that basis should using a putter anywhere other than on the green be considered a GR biatch move.

Edgey

Hello edgey,
I'd say it depends where you are a playing. Playing a parkland course I'd say "put the putter away you punk azz biatch", but playing a links I think it's acceptable, more than acceptable I'd say it is expected.. Being as most links courses the greens are the same grass as the fairway only cut way shorter.. It's fact before anyone questions it.. Go look at st Andrews..

You really do like to prove yourself as the biggest BM on GR don't you mate

The old school philosophy on short game is getting the ball to roll as soon as possible. Putting off the green therefore is not a biatch move.

[QUOTE=BURNDOG]Hello edgey,
I'd say it depends where you are a playing. Playing a parkland course I'd say "put the putter away you punk azz biatch", but playing a links I think it's acceptable, more than acceptable I'd say it is expected.. Being as most links courses the greens are the same grass as the fairway only cut way shorter.. It's fact before anyone questions it.. Go look at st Andrews..

You really do like to prove yourself as the biggest BM on GR don't you mate[/QUOTE]

Confess early, confess often, confess loudly.

Edgey

I take it on a case by case basis depending on lie and what you have between your ball and the green.

i CHOP AND IM PROUD..

[QUOTE=BURNDOG]i CHOP AND IM PROUD..[/QUOTE]

Thats the spirit.

and make sure you do when we play.

Edgey

OH Edgey.tsk tsk tsk! Given you have been known to putt from the rough I would say if you do it then it is a b.tch move. Nuff said my b.tches

To me it all depends on what lies between your ball and the start of the green. My Dad's course for example has immaculate, fast, true running greens and the fringe is almost as consistent as the green itself. If the greens are dry and fast I almost always putt from the fringe.On my home course it is hard to judge the speed from the fringe so unless my ball is only about a foot off the green I usually chip with a 9 iron to pop it over the fringe and get it rolling. However putting from the long rough beyond the fringe is something I never do. I always chip in those situations. I have seen guys that have no confidence in their chipping putt successfully from there but I can never judged the speed correctly.

However each to their own. Whatever works for you. Not a BM in my opinion.

However if it takes you three putts to get it in the hole do you count that as a 3 putt or do you only count true putts once you are on the green?

Not a BM in my book if you use the flat stick in logical ways. If you putt from 20 foot off the green because you can't chip than yes, it's a bm.

I personally will putt off the green when the pin is in a poor location like a big downhill or a severe slope behind the pin. I'll chip more often if I can play more aggressively. I can hole out more using a wedge than putting from off the green but will usually leave the ball closer using a putt.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]However each to their own. Whatever works for you. Not a BM in my opinion.
However if it takes you three putts to get it in the hole do you count that as a 3 putt or do you only count true putts once you are on the green?[/QUOTE]

As a GR 4k legend thats good enough for me. NOT A BM

I always call it a 3 putt if i use the putter of the green and dont get down in 2, if you say it isnt a 3 putt its a bona fide BM to me.

Edgey

[QUOTE=poe4soul]Not a BM in my book if you use the flat stick in logical ways. If you putt from 20 foot off the green because you can't chip than yes, it's a bm.

I personally will putt off the green when the pin is in a poor location like a big downhill or a severe slope behind the pin. I'll chip more often if I can play more aggressively. I can hole out more using a wedge than putting from off the green but will usually leave the ball closer using a putt.[/QUOTE]

Senior members seem to agree, not a BM

I feel vindicated

Edgey

The game of golf requires a healthy "imagination." I have a sand bunker next to the green on a Par 5 at my course that I even putt out of because it has no rough lip separating it from the green. Even though I am a good sand player and don't fear being in bunkers at all, the putt out of the trap leaves me in better position than the sand wedge would.

You just have to know the course, the grass and how the greens run.

[QUOTE=edgey]As a GR 4k legend thats good enough for me. NOT A BM

I always call it a 3 putt if i use the putter of the green and dont get down in 2, if you say it isnt a 3 putt its a bona fide BM to me.

Edgey[/QUOTE]

If I three putt from off the green it is definitely classed as a 3 putt, but as I said I usually only putt from the fringe if I am only 1-2 feet from the edge of the green. From 10-20 feet off I'll almost always chip anyway.

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]The game of golf requires a healthy "imagination."[/QUOTE]

Damn right!

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]The game of golf requires a healthy "imagination." [/QUOTE]

I imagine myself to be as good a golfer as some of the legends of GR (Omen, FD, Wiggle) and yet the truth is i am a 9 handicap chopper (albeit an R & A 9 so sort of genuine)

I also imagine i can hit a blade 2 iron 220yds but when i wake up it is just my Adams Gaybrid.

I have wound down and prepared for a life of dissapointment

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]I imagine myself to be as good a golfer as some of the legends of GR (Omen, FD, Wiggle) and yet the truth is i am a 9 handicap chopper (albeit an R & A 9 so sort of genuine)

I also imagine i can hit a blade 2 iron 220yds but when i wake up it is just my Adams Gaybrid.

[B]I have wound down and prepared for a life of dissapointment[/B]

Edgey[/QUOTE]

Not if your wife truly sports double Es . . . . . . . [img]http://www.fullsmilies.com/q/Smiley/adult/Squeeze.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]Not if your wife truly sports double Es . . . . . . . [img]http://www.fullsmilies.com/q/Smiley/adult/Squeeze.gif[/img][/QUOTE]

She does and they are just as good as your wank mag images ;-)

Edgey

Is putting from off the green with your 2 iron considered a putt? I line up and stroke it exactly like I do my putter...just with my 2 iron. Or is that a chip? I think it's a chip...whoa, I just answered my own question...weird

[QUOTE=mentaloaf]Is putting from off the green with your 2 iron considered a putt? I line up and stroke it exactly like I do my putter...just with my 2 iron. Or is that a chip? I think it's a chip...whoa, I just answered my own question...weird[/QUOTE]

Leadbetter calls it a "chip putt" but then Leadbetter is a c unt

Edgey

I meant 1 iron....I put my new $10 mizuno forged blade 1 iron in the bag recently and I love to putt with it from just off the green. Pretty fun to smash it off the fairway too, I've pretty much replaced my 3 wood with it.

These results aren't binding. The thread does not say "official", and there is no poll.

Putting from the fringe is preferred, putting from a well manicured fairway is a BM after about 3 feet, and putting from the rough or sand is always a BM. Rolling a putt onto the green from 50 yards out and under trees is the stuff of legend.

You can settle for mediocrity or you can be amazing...Its your choice. If your a boring / drab kind of a guy, then you should play accordingly.

Depends on the situation in the bunker. I've seen Furyk putt out of a bunker by driving it around the sides and up onto the green. It took incredible imagination and touch to pull it up. I'd never classify that as a BM. I've seen Nicklaus putt up the face of a bunker and almost holing out for birdie at the 9th at the par 3 course of Augusta National. Again, pretty good imagination.

I think what makes it a BM is if you're using that method to get out because you're an utter pus$y and can't get out any other way. I mean technically chopping out of a bad lie is a b!tch move if you have other options. Why not flip the club upside down and advance it that way if you can?

[QUOTE=The Purist]You can settle for mediocrity or you can be amazing...Its your choice. If your a boring / drab kind of a guy, then you should play accordingly.[/QUOTE]

Damn, i have been zinged by Purist as boring/drab, mediocre, cant chip Cûnt.

Shitter

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]Leadbetter calls it a "chip putt" but then Leadbetter is a c unt

Edgey[/QUOTE]

For some reason, I can't help but like Ledbetter. Of course, I can't take him serious either. That accent (is it English or Aussie or a mix of both?), his dry sense of humor, and his "ultra-nerdy" mannerisms just keep me in stitches.

I have also picked up a few useful tips from some of his videos as well.

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]For some reason, I can't help but like Ledbetter. Of course, I can't take him serious either. That accent ([B][I]is it English or Aussie or a mix of both?[/I][/B]), his dry sense of humor, and his "ultra-nerdy" mannerisms just keep me in stitches.

I have also picked up a few useful tips from some of his videos as well.[/QUOTE]

I think there's some Seth Efrican thrown in there too.

He probably had some good tips but there's only so many golf tips. He keeps trying to come up with new ones and most of them are just lame.

putting out of rough (not fringe) in any normal circumstance makes u a b!tch !!! FACT

why go and buy a 60 degree milled ball eater if you wont use it when it is needed or simply pop a 9iron to run ! by using a putter you're just dipping your hand in the magicians hat .

I was playing a pitch n putt course in Hawaii Kai several years ago with my grandma (RIP), who was so bad at golf it was painful, when she holed out like a 50 foot putt....she was so excited that she never let go of the putter and ended up teeing off with it on the following hole. I'd have to say teeing off with a putter is a super biatch move! Unless you're my Grandma....

[QUOTE=mentaloaf]I was playing a pitch n putt course in Hawaii Kai several years ago with my grandma (RIP), who was so bad at golf it was painful, when she holed out like a 50 foot putt....she was so excited that she never let go of the putter and ended up teeing off with it on the following hole. I'd have to say teeing off with a putter is a super biatch move! Unless you're my Grandma....[/QUOTE]

LOL that is classic.

I once saw a guy play a Pitch N Putt course using only a putter because they didn't have any left handed clubs. It was one of those old style flat two sided putters so he just played it left handed. He was teeing off and playing quite well with it until the head flew off!

[quote=mentaloaf]I was playing a pitch n putt course in Hawaii Kai several years ago with my grandma (RIP), who was so bad at golf it was painful, when she holed out like a 50 foot putt....she was so excited that she never let go of the putter and ended up teeing off with it on the following hole. I'd have to say teeing off with a putter is a super biatch move! Unless you're my Grandma....[/quote]

HA! That brought a tear to my eye mentaloaf! A Hallmark moment indeed!:D

It's only a BM if your putter has a pink grip. :)

[QUOTE=poe4soul]It's only a BM if your putter has a pink grip. :)[/QUOTE]

Steady Poe or i will send CF over there, he has quite a penchant for pink dont ya know

Edgey

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it meant if you hit a putt from on the green to off the green, is that a biatch move. I was going to say "you even have to ask?"

I saw Tiger at St Andrews on the 6th hole in 2005 hit a putt from 50 yards short of the green. If the circumstances dictate that it's the best shot then it's not, but if you're doing it because you're scared of chipping it, then it's definitely a biatch move. In the opinion of some noob joker who's only got like 12 posts anyway.

[QUOTE=Ty_Webb]When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it meant if you hit a putt from on the green to off the green, is that a biatch move. I was going to say "you even have to ask?"

I saw Tiger at St Andrews on the 6th hole in 2005 hit a putt from 50 yards short of the green. If the circumstances dictate that it's the best shot then it's not, but if you're doing it because you're scared of chipping it, then it's definitely a biatch move. In the opinion of some noob joker who's only got like 12 posts anyway.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but you're a vet over at Golfrewound so your opinion is welcome. Keep the gentle ribbing of Larryrsf up. Well at least as much as the 'kids gloves' mods over there will allow! :)

[QUOTE=edgey]Hi

I almost never chip from around the green (I even putt from the long rough beyond the fringe) prefering to go with the old adage "your worst putt is always better than your worst chip"

I have noticed however the really good players (Woods, Mickleson, Daly, Poulter.....whoops, sorry) always chip.

On that basis should using a putter anywhere other than on the green be considered a GR biatch move.

Edgey[/QUOTE]

If you were a better ball striker, like myself, you would chip from off of the green. I can't tell you how many times I've chipped in. It happens all the time. I'm known for it at my club. Yes, i belong to a CC. I consider myself above using such words as biatch but I feel obligated to tell you that putting from the fringe is no different than a man wearing a bikini thong to the beach. The man in the bikini thong doesn't know that people are laughing at him and neither does the man that putts from off of the green. We are laughing and you should stop.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]If you were a better ball striker, like myself, you would chip from off of the green. I can't tell you how many times I've chipped in. It happens all the time. I'm known for it at my club. Yes, i belong to a CC. I consider myself above using such words as biatch but I feel obligated to tell you that putting from the fringe is no different than a man wearing a bikini thong to the beach. The man in the bikini thong doesn't know that people are laughing at him and neither does the man that putts from off of the green. We are laughing and you should stop.[/QUOTE]

Seems to me you know a lot about men wearing bikini thongs. Is there something more you want to confess to us?

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]Seems to me you know a lot about men wearing bikini thongs. Is there something more you want to confess to us?[/QUOTE]

That's your problem, you base all of your decisions on how things SEEM to be. I think you are jealous of my iron game and it's turned you into an angry person. You should be asking me for advice instead of getting mad.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]That's your problem, you base all of your decisions on how things SEEM to be. I think you are jealous of my iron game and it's turned you into an [B]angry person[/B]. You should be asking me for advice instead of[B] getting mad[/B].[/QUOTE]

Angry? Mad? Who is angry and mad? I am perfectly alright with you getting your rocks off watching guys wear thongs at the beach. To each his own, I always say . . . . .

[img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/sae/beer.gif[/img]

Texas wedging it from off the green is a legitimate golf shot, and a smart play. My course is a goat track, and we have raised greens so you find youself just off the green lots of times during a round, and usually in a shitt lie that would make chipping or pitching impossible, so you see the putter coming out all the time for most of the guys. I personally have trouble with touch from off the gree due I think to my left hand low putting grip, so I instead opt for the 3 wood with a conventional grip for those shots. One advantage I find with the 3 wood is that you get a slightly different roll which tends to get through the longer grass easier than a putter in the same instance. I'm actually gotten it down to a fine art and get up and down regularly with the 3 wood.

Today, we were playing in Santa Ana winds at the East Valley / PGA course in Beaumont, CA. It was WINDY; Santa Ana conditions. Today two of my buddies who are pretty good golfers ended up putting off the green when they had downhill, downwind putts to pins near the downhill end of the green. It happens.....

I think Mward and Purist have said it correctly. If you suck at chipping/bunker play and have to resort to putting out of the rough and bunkers, you are a total b!tch. Even using a chipper is a more acceptable move. If the best shot for the situation (even in the rough) requires a putter, just blade a wedge. Manhood intact.

Edgey didn't you buy that hideous Cleveland Niblick? What happened to that? Surely you could use that. It's a virtually a chipper isn't it?

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Edgey didn't you buy that hideous Cleveland Niblick? What happened to that? Surely you could use that. It's a virtually a chipper isn't it?[/QUOTE]

I did and still have it but i found that whilst useful it didnt solve the key issue. I have putted off the fringe for so long i am pretty good at it, rarely taking more than 2, so why chip?

How did your golf go?

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]I did and still have it but i found that whilst useful it didnt solve the key issue. I have putted off the fringe for so long i am pretty good at it, rarely taking more than 2, so why chip?

How did your golf go?

Edgey[/QUOTE]

You mean my golf trip? Coming up this weekend. I leave on Thursday morning and fly back Sunday night.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]You mean my golf trip? Coming up this weekend. I leave on Thursday morning and fly back Sunday night.[/QUOTE]

Sorry thought it was the weekend gone, my mistake.

Good luck though

Edgey

How did your Yes putter work for you yesterday Edgey?

[QUOTE=edgey]Sorry thought it was the weekend gone, my mistake.

Good luck though

Edgey[/QUOTE]

Thanks Mate.

I played Saturday morning (after the poll) and the blades were on song so that settled my decision.

Well, it finally happened, as I was sizing up my shot yesterday from about 15 feet off the green with about 30 feet of green to go after that, GR crept into my train of thought as I considered putting it. I called myself a biatch for even thinking it and pulled out my nine iron and proceeded to put the ball about 6 inches from the hole, then in for par. I try to keep my mind free of all the BS on GR but I don't think I can do it anymore....

[quote=mentaloaf]Well, it finally happened, as I was sizing up my shot yesterday from about 15 feet off the green with about 30 feet of green to go after that, GR crept into my train of thought as I considered putting it. I called myself a biatch for even thinking it and pulled out my nine iron and proceeded to put the ball about 6 inches from the hole, then in for par. I try to keep my mind free of all the BS on GR but I don't think I can do it anymore....[/quote]

LOL! I think you might be ready for GFF blades!
....OT I don't think you ever said. Is Bermuda the only greens you've putted on? As far as I know that's all there is on the Island....That shite causes me fits my first couple of rounds every time I go there.

[QUOTE=noshuz]How did your Yes putter work for you yesterday Edgey?[/QUOTE]

Hi

PRO'S

Great weight
Looks the biz
Very solid for lag putting

CON'S

Not sure it has enough loft for UK greens (2.5 Degree)
Not as nice off the face as my Odyssey (This could just need getting used too)
A little inconsistant from 3' compared to the Odyssey

Fair to say the jurys out but but its not on e bay yet

Edgey

I don't know grass too well......well not golf course grass anyway hint hint.....but I played a lot in California several years ago and the grass is WAY different over here, much easier on all fronts I'd say. I also had the priviledge of playing "The Country Club" in Boston years ago and that was by far the most difficult course I've ever played grass wise. That was pretty cool though, I got to play with a real caddy which is a f ucking trip if you've never done that...Yeah the grass is pretty much the same on all the courses here in hawaii but I don't know what it's called...pakalolo maybe?

[quote=mentaloaf]I don't know grass too well......well not golf course grass anyway hint hint.....but I played a lot in California several years ago and the grass is WAY different over here, much easier on all fronts I'd say. I also had the priviledge of playing "The Country Club" in Boston years ago and that was by far the most difficult course I've ever played grass wise. That was pretty cool though, I got to play with a real caddy which is a f ucking trip if you've never done that...Yeah the grass is pretty much the same on all the courses here in hawaii but I don't know what it's called...pakalolo maybe?[/quote]

Ya I think it's called something like that. It's in essence a Bermuda hybrid. They have to use that stuff as Bent grass or other species are not as disease resistant which guess is a big deal there. It's a MF to putt on.
My wife just found out that she has cousins in Maui. I miss them already! So it looks like we'll be going there sooner than I thought. If none of them play golf, they're gonna learn!

[quote=edgey]Hi

PRO'S

Great weight
Looks the biz
Very solid for lag putting

CON'S

Not sure it has enough loft for UK greens (2.5 Degree)
[B]Not as nice off the face as my Odyssey[/B] (This could just need getting used too)
A little inconsistant from 3' compared to the Odyssey

Fair to say the jurys out but but its not on e bay yet

Edgey[/quote]

Is it because of the lack of an insert?

[QUOTE=mentaloaf]Well, it finally happened, as I was sizing up my shot yesterday from about 15 feet off the green with about 30 feet of green to go after that, [B][I]GR crept into my train of thought [/I][/B]as I considered putting it. I called myself a biatch for even thinking it and pulled out my nine iron and proceeded to put the ball about 6 inches from the hole, then in for par. [B][I]I try to keep my mind free of all the BS on GR but I don't think I can do it anymore....[/I][/B][/QUOTE]

This has happened to me in the past.

I was playing with a very good golfer once and he hit a six iron to a par three and as it started out high and left of the green he exclaimed "Come on cut! Where's the cut?"

I looked at the club in his hand, saw that it was a Callaway X-18 and immediately blurted out "No wonder it didn't cut. What'd you expect with THAT shovel!"

:D

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]This has happened to me in the past.

I was playing with a very good golfer once and he hit a six iron to a par three and as it started out high and left of the green he exclaimed "Come on cut! Where's the cut?"

I looked at the club in his hand, saw that it was a Callaway X-18 and immediately blurted out "No wonder it didn't cut. What'd you expect with THAT shovel!"

:D[/QUOTE]


See Kiwi - now that you yourself are no longer playing those shovelly implements you can actually say stuff like that.

It's quite liberating, isn't it? :D



FON

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]See Kiwi - now that you yourself are no longer playing those shovelly implements you can actually say stuff like that.

It's quite liberating, isn't it? :D



FON[/QUOTE]

LOL - trouble is I was still bagging the TM R7 shovels back then. So my comment was completely out of line! :D

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]LOL - trouble is I was still bagging the TM R7 shovels back then. So my comment was completely out of line! :D[/QUOTE]


Yeah, but you were playing with a guy who was using Callaway Backhoe Berthas so it was justified.



FON

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]LOL - trouble is I was still bagging the [B][U]TM R7 shovels[/U][/B] back then. So my comment was completely out of line! :D[/QUOTE]
I think I can remember you explaining about the lofts etc. of these clubs meant they actually didn't qualify as shovels.
It's good to see that a good dose of GFF blades has lifted the veil from your eyes. :D

[QUOTE=edgey]Hi

I almost never chip from around the green (I even putt from the long rough beyond the fringe) prefering to go with the old adage "your worst putt is always better than your worst chip"

I have noticed however the really good players (Woods, Mickleson, Daly, Poulter.....whoops, sorry) always chip.

On that basis should using a putter anywhere other than on the green be considered a GR biatch move.

Edgey[/QUOTE]


My home course has the sh.ittiest green collars in the western hemisphere. Using a putter off the green there is an act of bravery.

[QUOTE=dorkman53]Today, we were playing in Santa Ana winds at the East Valley / PGA course in Beaumont, CA. It was WINDY; Santa Ana conditions. Today two [B]of my buddies who are pretty good golfers ended up putting off the green [/B]when they had downhill, downwind putts to pins near the downhill end of the green. It happens.....[/QUOTE]


So when they're alone together, how do they know which one is the bi.tch?

(Italian and Mom joke disclaimer but other ethnic and family member jokes are allowed).

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]This has happened to me in the past.

I was playing with a very good golfer once and he hit a six iron to a par three and as it started out high and left of the green he exclaimed "Come on cut! Where's the cut?"

I looked at the club in his hand, saw that it was a Callaway X-18 and immediately blurted out "No wonder it didn't cut. What'd you expect with THAT shovel!"

:D[/QUOTE]

If you said that to me I'd take that x-18 and turn you into a popscicle.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]If you said that to me I'd take that x-18 and turn you into a popscicle.[/QUOTE]

Gee whizz you shovel players certainly are a touchy, sensitive lot aren't you?

Did I hit a raw nerve? Must be an ego thing. :p

[QUOTE=oldplayer]I think I can remember you explaining about the lofts etc. of these clubs meant they actually didn't qualify as shovels.
It's good to see that a good dose of GFF blades has lifted the veil from your eyes. :D[/QUOTE]

Well the TP version are not as much of a shovel as the regular R7 and have the same lofts as most modern 'players' clubs such as the MP-32's. Also, as I have pointed out previously, they were used by Y.E. Yang to make Tiger his biatch in the PGA. Surely that must bring some kudos and street cred to these magnificent sticks?

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Well the TP version are not as much of a shovel as the regular R7 and have the same lofts as most modern 'players' clubs such as the MP-32's. Also, as I have pointed out previously, they were used by Y.E. Yang to make Tiger his biatch in the PGA. [B]Surely that must bring some kudos and street cred to these magnificent sticks[/B]?[/QUOTE]

It would if Kenny Perry didn't use them, too . . . . . .

[QUOTE=famousdavis]If you said that to me I'd take that x-18 and turn you into a [B]popscicle.[/B][/QUOTE]

Either you are able to cast freezing spells with that X-18, or you have the talents of Iceman.

I can't picture either.

[QUOTE=noshuz]Is it because of the lack of an insert?[/QUOTE]
I suspect that might be the case.

I am going to use it again on Sat if the weather holds and Sunday. If i still struggle from 3 foot its on e bay :D

Edgey

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]It would if Kenny Perry didn't use them, too . . . . . .[/QUOTE]

Kenny Perry uses the regular R7 with the ridiculously strong chopper lofts. Not the TP version.

Y.E. Yang uses the R7 [B]TP[/B] with standard lofts for modern players clubs.

Ok so the TP's are still shovels but they're not as chopperesque as the standard R7.

Here are the comparative lofts:

Lofts R7 vs TP

3 20 21
4 22 24
5 25 27
6 28 31
7 32 35
8 36 39
9 40 43
PW 45 47

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Gee whizz you shovel players certainly are a touchy, sensitive lot aren't you?

Did I hit a raw nerve? Must be an ego thing. :p[/QUOTE]

I dont know you get a set of Blades and this happens. You've changed Kiwi, its a glorious thing to see:D

Edgey