MP60 vs MP33 - blade wins hands down

I bought a mixed set of Mizuno's a couple of months ago per my sig, 3-5 irons MP-30 and 6-PW MP-33 blades. I have been hitting both the blades and the CB really well. At the weekend I picked up an MP-60 6 iron and thought that might fit into the set well with the MP-30 4-5 irons and start the blades at 7-PW. After all we need a little more forgiveness in our long-mid irons right? WRONG!

Hit both the MP-60 and the MP-33 6 iron side by side on the range and not a lot to choose between them but more solid hits with the MP-33 and a lot more feed back and accuracy i.e. straighter hits. I then took them both out on a short knocking goat track and was able to tee off with both and often hit the second shot with both. The MP-33 won hands down. Generally much straighter shots and often more distance despite being 1 degree weaker loft. The MP-60 felt ok on pure shots, but nothing to write home about. The feel of the MP-30 CB's on a pure shot is much purer than the 60's IMO. I came to a short par three that normally requires a 7-9 iron depending on wind/pin placement. Last night an 8-9 iron would have been the right club but I decided to just choke down and throttle back on the 6 iron. I hit both pin high but hit a very slight block with the MP-60 leaving it in the fringe whereas the MP-33 was dead straight and came to rest about 10 feet from the pin.

On another hole into the wind I thought that I wouldn't reach the green but decided to use 6 iron anyway. Struck the MP-60 well but it came up short and left of the green. Struck the MP-33 well but thought it was too high and would hold up in the breeze. Instead it wound up on the green about 12 feet below the hole. So so much for all the talk about cavity backs being so much more forgiving and so much EASIER to hit. Overall I hit the 6 iron blade much better and it will be staying in the bag.

Anybody else had a similar experience?

I agree blades are always more accurate and have a tighter dispersion but still are harder to hit consitently well.
It sounds like your'e swing is so solid you should forget about the odd poor shot and play blades for sure.

Kiwi

I am pleased you are swinging so well at the moment. Problem with blades is that when you arent they will let you know, big time. I dont like that as i am very competetive and want to score the best i can.

I think my MX are the best compromise, GFF magic with the forgiveness a non practicing hacker needs

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]Kiwi

I am pleased you are swinging so well at the moment. Problem with blades is that when you arent they will let you know, big time. I dont like that as i am very competetive and want to score the best i can.

I think my MX are the best compromise, GFF magic with the forgiveness a non practicing hacker needs

Edgey[/QUOTE]
There you go Edgey, being a wet blanket again. you are a self-confessed hacker who is obviously more comfortable playing shovels. That's fine, more power to you; but Kiwi is a different bird entirely. You can see he has aspirations to soar with the eagles. Don't kill that dream, don't pull down a guy who wants only GFF purity. :p

[QUOTE=oldplayer]There you go Edgey, being a wet blanket again. you are a self-confessed hacker who is obviously more comfortable playing shovels. That's fine, more power to you; but Kiwi is a different bird entirely. You can see he has aspirations to soar with the eagles. Don't kill that dream, don't pull down a guy who wants only GFF purity. :p[/QUOTE]

Thats your problem OP, optimism.

As a cyncial, miserable, battered by life, realist i have not blinded myself to the facts. Dont shoot the messenger OP, dont be a hater. :D

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]Kiwi

I am pleased you are swinging so well at the moment. [B]Problem with blades is that when you arent they will let you know, big time[/B]. I dont like that as i am very competetive and want to score the best i can.

I think my MX are the best compromise, GFF magic with the forgiveness a non practicing hacker needs

Edgey[/QUOTE]

But how much do shovels really help when you are swinging poorly? If I am swingiing poorly I don't think that a big oversized cavity back will help much. A thin/fat shot is still a cr@p shot with a blade or a shovel. I don't think it makes that much difference. As for hitting the middle of the blade, well the blade hitting area is so much smaller than a shovel that you are bound to hit it closer to the middle of the face unless you get the dreaded (S) word (which I won't mention).

This is my first foray into blades and these are my findings to date. They just aren't as hard to hit as the hype and popular opinion would suggest. I dunno, maybe the MP-33's are one of the easier to hit blades? I'm enjoying them anyway.

I'll admit it; I don't have the game to play blades without hurting my scores. I've done the side by side by side demo of CB's, muscle cavities (Player's cavity backs), and blades, both in the MacGregor and Mizuno lines. There's no question that the blades feel great most of the time, but on the occasional swing that doesn't go quite so well, I get punished disproportionately less with a more forgiving design. No, forgiving clubs don't make me a better player, but I enjoy the game more if I know I won't be pulverized for a slightly thin shot.
Again, to each his/her own. Whatever works, do it.

I've been preaching the same findings as you Kiwi ever since I made the transition from my old Burner Supersteels to my current rac MB TP's.

Shovels only really offer a benefit (and only a bit of undeserved distance benefit at that) to players who can't find the sweet spot very often. As you say, a bad swing is a bad swing - if you miss the sweet spot it's not the club's fault. If you come OTT and pull it then the shot will fly equally off line with both shovels and blades.

There is a great deal of fiction being spread around to consumers (by means of marketing hype) about how much easier shovels are to hit than blades, and unfortunately those of us in the know are losing the war in our battle against this misinformation (except here on GR).

It sure does wonders for the confidence once you realize you never needed shovels to hit quality shots in the first place... that first day you try the blades out and start puring shot after shot gets you wondering what all the fearmongers are so afraid of.

There are only two reasons most people are afraid to use blades - A) they believe all of the marketing hype which was designed to SELL these technological SGI "innovations" as making the game easier, and B) they are so hung up of their current scores that they are afraid to take one step backward even if it leads to two steps forward (in other words, they are too chicken-$hit to shoot even one measly stroke higher then their current average for a couple weeks even if it leads to long term improvement).

I know it's widely expected that we all point and laugh at the "ego" players chopping their way around the course with blades that "they have no business using"... but what is even funnier to me is watching someone using shovels with every technological advantage ever invented chop it up just as bad if not worse than the chopper using blades. I guess it just happens so often that we dismiss it, but in reality it's solid evidence that all this GI technology does little or nothing to help a hack shoot better scores.

There's a lot more to golf than the scores we shoot... anyone can thin a wormburner off the tee to a reasonable position in the fairway, lay the sod over the approach and hit it short of the green, skull a pitch into the flagstick and have it stop 3 feet away and then make the putt for par. It takes far more skill to crisply strike something resembling an actual golf shot with regularity. No matter how much GI technology they put into these shovels, they are still not designed to be thinned, fatted, toed, shanked, sliced, duck-hooked, etc... all day long. Eventually as players we all have to man up and accept responsibility for our poor play and fix our defective techniques if we truly wish to improve and reach our full potential.

Nobody should be satisfied playing "ugly" golf - even if they are scoring half decent. If you're gonna spend >4 hours on a course, why should the 10 minutes after you walk off the 18th green (seeing your final score for the round) be the only enjoyable moment you have all day? That's just me though I guess - I derive more pleasure from striking the ball than I do from posting scores... it's the good shots that I'll remember fondly years later - not the scores so much.

I think it's more important to have fun PLAYING the game than it is to always be so concerned with winning, and that's why I'll never go back to shovels. Blades are just too much fun - the shots I find myself hitting with them are what keeps me coming back for more.



FON

I've already testified many times on here about my many years of experience trying to hit shovels without success. It was not until I started playing player's clubs a year ago that I started watching my score drop. I have also moved on from the MP-52s to the MP-67s because I found that I hit the blades better than the player's cavity backs.

If there is one thing worse then a slow player its a no game club hoe! If the shoe fits wear it b.tches.............

Coulldn't have said it better myself FON, agree with everything you said. Shovels only provide a small benefit when you are swinging it good but not finding the sweetspot. If your swing is out you will not get any benefit from shovels whatsoever.

One other thing that may make people incorrectly think blades are hard to hit is that because they are supposed to be only for good players, most sets off the shelf come in S300 or stiffer shafts. Most choppers who complain about blades being too hard to hit don't have the technique or clubhead speed to use stiff shafts, and would struggle just as much if you put S300s in their shovels. If these guys hit blades with the same shafts as they normally use they would find the blade experience much more pleasant.

Bottom line is that if you get fitted correctly,almost everybody could use blades, and most would become better players for the experience.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Coulldn't have said it better myself FON, agree with everything you said. Shovels only provide a small benefit when you are swinging it good but not finding the sweetspot. If your swing is out you will not get any benefit from shovels whatsoever.

One other thing that may make people incorrectly think blades are hard to hit is that because they are supposed to be only for good players, most sets off the shelf come in S300 or stiffer shafts. Most choppers who complain about blades being too hard to hit don't have the technique or clubhead speed to use stiff shafts, and would struggle just as much if you put S300s in their shovels. If these guys hit blades with the same shafts as they normally use they would find the blade experience much more pleasant.

Bottom line is that if you get fitted correctly,almost everybody could use blades, and most would become better players for the experience.[/QUOTE]


You make a good point about how blades are perceived (marketed) to be only for good players, and a very good point about how the shafts they also tend to come standard with from the major OEM's are stiff and intended for players with higher swing speeds.

This is IMHO, just another facet of the marketing agenda being used to justify the benefits of all of these GI innovations (so these engineers who keep reinventing the wheel can get paid). In a sense - they are trying to stave off actual player improvement by creating a dependency on these innovations, which of course legitimizes all of these so-called improvements in club design.

It's all just marketing, and they are preying on the inherent laziness in all of us - our own instinctive predisposition towards doing everything the easiest way possible. By providing you with technology that corrects for your mistakes, they are in a sense catering to your inherent lazy human nature - thus "addicting" you to the technological benefit (regardless of how miniscule the real-world effects of employing these advantages actually is).

This generates a cult of faithful supporters ever willing to defend the merits of these technological advantages by presenting evidence that they don't actually suck at golf as bad as most of them think they should - which must mean that we all stand to benefit, right?

If you want what I consider to be the truth of the matter, in my own words... here it is:

The noticeable real world difference between the easiest to hit club ever made and the most difficult to hit club ever made gets smaller and smaller the worse the player is. Bad swings are so common for these players that whatever technology you put into the clubhead goes unused anyways. It really doesn't matter what a terrible player uses.

Likewise, good players tend to find the middle of the face more often than not and have good control of their club, so the technology again tends make very little difference one way or another.

The middle handicappers are the ones who see the true benefits of the technology - they get to shoot the same as they are used to, but with less effort and precision required. Either that or they drop a couple shots and plateau again... then they start getting lazy and shooting higher scores, so they go buy the latest greatest GI iron from one of the major OEM's, lather, rinse, repeat. The GI market is actively farming club ho's. Cattle, essentially... a big, profitable herd of them.



FON

Some of the posts on this thread are so "black and white" and "all or nothing" that it oversimplifies the situation. The logical fallacy is the "false dilemma." It's either blades or GI shovels. Take your pick. No middle ground. No other options.

Come on, there are blades, musclebacks, muscle cavities (player's cavity backs), cavity backs with numerous widths of soles and degrees of offset, and various degrees of "Super Game Improvement" clubs. In other words, a SPECTRUM, not black and white extremes.

But it is easier to oversimplify than to recognize that there are some subtleties and nuances on the issue.



Personally, I have minimal offset cavity backs for the long irons, muscle cavities for the shorter irons and PW, and muscleback blades for my wedges. This works for me. Do what works for you, but don't ridicule or disparage someone with a different idea.

[QUOTE=dorkman53] It's either blades or GI shovels.

[/QUOTE]

Not at all Dorkman. I wasn't comparing a Mizuno blade to a Callaway Big Bertha. I was comparing a Mizuno blade (MP33) to a Mizuno players cavity back (MP60). They aren't worlds apart and after playing GI type irons for years I thought that a players CB like the MP60 might be the best compromise for me. But in a side by side test I found that I preferred the blade. I'm as surprised by this as anybody and it has simply made me question the accepted wisdom that blades are so hard to hit and should only be played by very low cappers who are also great ball strikers. According to the conventional wisdom better players should stick to the more forgiving 'players' CB, mid handicappers should play GI irons and beginners should play SGI clubs. I was willing to 'buy into this' for years but now my recent experience has made me question the 'conventional wisdom'.

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]I've been preaching the same findings as you Kiwi ever since I made the transition from my old Burner Supersteels to my current rac MB TP's.

Shovels only really offer a benefit (and only a bit of undeserved distance benefit at that) to players who can't find the sweet spot very often. As you say, a bad swing is a bad swing - if you miss the sweet spot it's not the club's fault. If you come OTT and pull it then the shot will fly equally off line with both shovels and blades.

There is a great deal of fiction being spread around to consumers (by means of marketing hype) about how much easier shovels are to hit than blades, and unfortunately those of us in the know are losing the war in our battle against this misinformation (except here on GR).

It sure does wonders for the confidence once you realize you never needed shovels to hit quality shots in the first place... that first day you try the blades out and start puring shot after shot gets you wondering what all the fearmongers are so afraid of.

There are only two reasons most people are afraid to use blades - A) they believe all of the marketing hype which was designed to SELL these technological SGI "innovations" as making the game easier, and B) they are so hung up of their current scores that they are afraid to take one step backward even if it leads to two steps forward (in other words, they are too chicken-$hit to shoot even one measly stroke higher then their current average for a couple weeks even if it leads to long term improvement).

I know it's widely expected that we all point and laugh at the "ego" players chopping their way around the course with blades that "they have no business using"... but what is even funnier to me is watching someone using shovels with every technological advantage ever invented chop it up just as bad if not worse than the chopper using blades. I guess it just happens so often that we dismiss it, but in reality it's solid evidence that all this GI technology does little or nothing to help a hack shoot better scores.

There's a lot more to golf than the scores we shoot... anyone can thin a wormburner off the tee to a reasonable position in the fairway, lay the sod over the approach and hit it short of the green, skull a pitch into the flagstick and have it stop 3 feet away and then make the putt for par. It takes far more skill to crisply strike something resembling an actual golf shot with regularity. No matter how much GI technology they put into these shovels, they are still not designed to be thinned, fatted, toed, shanked, sliced, duck-hooked, etc... all day long. Eventually as players we all have to man up and accept responsibility for our poor play and fix our defective techniques if we truly wish to improve and reach our full potential.

Nobody should be satisfied playing "ugly" golf - even if they are scoring half decent. If you're gonna spend >4 hours on a course, why should the 10 minutes after you walk off the 18th green (seeing your final score for the round) be the only enjoyable moment you have all day? That's just me though I guess - I derive more pleasure from striking the ball than I do from posting scores... it's the good shots that I'll remember fondly years later - not the scores so much.

I think it's more important to have fun PLAYING the game than it is to always be so concerned with winning, and that's why I'll never go back to shovels. Blades are just too much fun - the shots I find myself hitting with them are what keeps me coming back for more.



FON[/QUOTE]

"There's a lot more to golf than the scores we shoot". Let me guess, you want a second score for effort? Tiger won the tournament today by 5 shots but we give the prize money to Kenny Perry. Kenny switched to blades this week and didn't make the cut but we're giving him the tournament because he wants to be just like Tiger. Keep playing your blades and I'll gladly take your money at the 19th hole. You blades guys crack me up.

[QUOTE=dorkman53]Some of the posts on this thread are so "black and white" and "all or nothing" that it oversimplifies the situation. The logical fallacy is the "false dilemma." It's either blades or GI shovels. Take your pick. No middle ground. No other options.

Come on, there are blades, musclebacks, muscle cavities (player's cavity backs), cavity backs with numerous widths of soles and degrees of offset, and various degrees of "Super Game Improvement" clubs. In other words, a SPECTRUM, not black and white extremes.

But it is easier to oversimplify than to recognize that there are some subtleties and nuances on the issue.



Personally, I have minimal offset cavity backs for the long irons, muscle cavities for the shorter irons and PW, and muscleback blades for my wedges. This works for me. Do what works for you, but don't ridicule or disparage someone with a different idea.[/QUOTE]


IMO if you can use that setup proficiently then (because I believe that forgiveness is exaggerated in its real world influence) there's no obvious reason why you couldn't use a much more purist/traditional clubhead design (blades, MB's) and shoot within a shot or two of the scores you're shooting right now.

Forgiveness translates more into your hands than it does in your shots. Those CB's FEEL more forgiving, but the shot patterns are no tighter, the distance control no better on those off center hits. You're being deceived by a sensation which was engineered by the shape of those clubheads to promote confidence - because they feel less harsh on mishits, you'll believe that you're actually striking it better than you really are and you'll maintain more confidence as a result - supposedly. It's the placebo effect. The technology does very little to actually turn those mishits into good shots other than giving you a false sense of confidence, and a little extra distance when you miss the sweet spots.

How can that not be a black and white sort of issue? Had you been born in the 30's and grew up playing in the 50's, would you have quit golf because the equipment wasn't forgiving enough? Facts are that lots of very unathletic men of the past needed far less technology than most amateurs seem to require today, yet they had no problems becoming the greats of the game in their era. This whole insecurity complex that average players have is a bunch of marketing propaganda... nothing but carefully calculated brainwashing to create a market demand for products and ideas which really had no purpose other than to be sold for profit. It's snake oil.



FON

[QUOTE=famousdavis]"There's a lot more to golf than the scores we shoot". Let me guess, you want a second score for effort? Tiger won the tournament today by 5 shots but we give the prize money to Kenny Perry. Kenny switched to blades this week and didn't make the cut but we're giving him the tournament because he wants to be just like Tiger. Keep playing your blades and I'll gladly take your money at the 19th hole. You blades guys crack me up.[/QUOTE]


The difference between you and I FD, is that while yes, I brag about my shotmaking feats, you... well you just bull$hit (yes, I openly admit to bragging about breaking apart golf balls with my enormous clubhead speed and incredibly high smash factor).

Want some proof, dipshit?

[IMG]http://gallery.golfreview.com/data/golf/500/broken_dozen1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://gallery.golfreview.com/data/golf/500/Img_1148_lo.jpg[/IMG]

Your turn Pinocchio. Put up or shut up. I bet you don't even break 90.



FON

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]IMO if you can use that setup proficiently then (because I believe that forgiveness is exaggerated in its real world influence) there's no obvious reason why you couldn't use a much more purist/traditional clubhead design (blades, MB's) and shoot within a shot or two of the scores you're shooting right now.

Forgiveness translates more into your hands than it does in your shots. Those CB's FEEL more forgiving, but the shot patterns are no tighter, the distance control no better on those off center hits. You're being deceived by a sensation which was engineered by the shape of those clubheads to promote confidence - because they feel less harsh on mishits, you'll believe that you're actually striking it better than you really are and you'll maintain more confidence as a result - supposedly. It's the placebo effect. The technology does very little to actually turn those mishits into good shots other than giving you a false sense of confidence, and a little extra distance when you miss the sweet spots.

How can that not be a black and white sort of issue? Had you been born in the 30's and grew up playing in the 50's, would you have quit golf because the equipment wasn't forgiving enough? Facts are that lots of very unathletic men of the past needed far less technology than most amateurs seem to require today, yet they had no problems becoming the greats of the game in their era. This whole insecurity complex that average players have is a bunch of marketing propaganda... nothing but carefully calculated brainwashing to create a market demand for products and ideas which really had no purpose other than to be sold for profit. It's snake oil.



FON[/QUOTE]

You are a prime example of a true believer/evangelist mentality, who wants everyone to believe in, and use the same equipment that works for you.

Don't tell me that cavity backs are not more forgiving. I have done the demos more than once; side by side, no ambiguity at all. When you make such a categorically dogmatic statement, it undermines your credibility. I have a very tight dispersion on my Player's Cavity Backs and Muscle Cavities, as I do on my wedges. I need a little forgiveness when I don't hit the ball perfectly a lot more than I need a slightly tighter dispersion on an already well hit shot.

I get a lot of distance forgiveness on SLIGHTLY mis-hit shots with a more forgiving design. In particular, a slightly thin shot will go at a lower trajectory but in the correct direction and just about the desired distance. A bad shot is a bad shot, but a SLIGHTLY mis-hit shot is where the benefits of forgiveness are enjoyed.

One Mensa candidate on this board had the response on a prior re-hashing of a re-hashing of this thread topic that the answer to preventing less than great shots was to simply stop hitting less than great shots, and hit great shots every time..........
That may work for him, but I am sorry to admit that I am human, and not every shot is perfect......

It continues to amaze me how worked up blade advocates get about this subject. I don't understand why a little tolerance of a different opinion is such a threat to some people.

I repeat: "If it works for you, fine. Do it. But don't try to convert the entire golf world to your point of view."

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]The difference between you and I FD, is that while yes, I brag about my shotmaking feats, you... well you just bull$hit (yes, I openly admit to bragging about breaking apart golf balls with my enormous clubhead speed and incredibly high smash factor).

Want some proof, dipshit?

[IMG]http://gallery.golfreview.com/data/golf/500/broken_dozen1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://gallery.golfreview.com/data/golf/500/Img_1148_lo.jpg[/IMG]

Your turn Pinocchio. Put up or shut up. I bet you don't even break 90.



FON[/QUOTE]

Wow, you must skull a lot of shots. See my thread on proper weight shift and then spend a few hours at the range. Afterward, I want a complete report on your progress. Oh, one more thing, throw away those cracked balls. The last thing you need is a reminder of your swing fault. We both know I shoot in the low 70's so stop with the jealous dialogue. Remember, I want to see that report.

[QUOTE=dorkman53]You are a prime example of a true believer/evangelist mentality, who wants everyone to believe in, and use the same equipment that works for you.

Don't tell me that cavity backs are not more forgiving. I have done the demos more than once; side by side, no ambiguity at all. When you make such a categorically dogmatic statement, it undermines your credibility. I have a very tight dispersion on my Player's Cavity Backs and Muscle Cavities, as I do on my wedges. I need a little forgiveness when I don't hit the ball perfectly a lot more than I need a slightly tighter dispersion on an already well hit shot.

I get a lot of distance forgiveness on SLIGHTLY mis-hit shots with a more forgiving design. In particular, a slightly thin shot will go at a lower trajectory but in the correct direction and just about the desired distance. A bad shot is a bad shot, but a SLIGHTLY mis-hit shot is where the benefits of forgiveness are enjoyed.

One Mensa candidate on this board had the response on a prior re-hashing of a re-hashing of this thread topic that the answer to preventing less than great shots was to simply stop hitting less than great shots, and hit great shots every time..........
That may work for him, but I am sorry to admit that I am human, and not every shot is perfect......

It continues to amaze me how worked up blade advocates get about this subject. I don't understand why a little tolerance of a different opinion is such a threat to some people.

I repeat: "If it works for you, fine. Do it. But don't try to convert the entire golf world to your point of view."[/QUOTE]


OK, fine. Look, I've got no problem with people using whatever they feel they play the best with - I'm sure I've made that very clear in the past. Sure - your cavity backs are more forgiving... but they're not saving you any more shots than any other clubhead design - even if it seems to feel like it. I also never said your dispersion wasn't tight - I did however say that it was likely NO TIGHTER than it would be with a blade or MB. Scores will not automatically shoot up by 5 shots just because a player abandons player's CB's in favor of blades or MB's - I can attest to that personally, as can many other converts. It's a blatant lie, and yes, I take issue with it. If we're to have a legitimate discussion about the merits and myths of blade irons, I do believe that the truth has a valid place in the discussion, agreed?

I have a problem with the dogma, that only the best of the best players are even remotely qualified to use blades. You don't seem to have a problem parroting that same dogma, yet you accuse ME of sounding like the evangelical.

My only agenda is to expose the fraud that is most of today's modern marketing BS. Their agenda is to perpetuate misinformation and to misrepresent the true influence of their GI technology so that they can make as much money as possible.

I can see why you'd take their word over mine. My agenda obviously seems much more sinister by comparison.

Please leave a generous donation in the collection plate which I will be passing around momentarily.



FON

[QUOTE=famousdavis]Wow, you must skull a lot of shots. See my thread on proper weight shift and then spend a few hours at the range. Afterward, I want a complete report on your progress. Oh, one more thing, throw away those cracked balls. The last thing you need is a reminder of your swing fault. We both know I shoot in the low 70's so stop with the jealous dialogue. Remember, I want to see that report.[/QUOTE]


All done with driver, right on the sweet spot. Compressed to bits - literally. You see those little red arrows in the bottom picture? Point of impact. You see those ring-like patterns emanating from the points of impact? Compression shockwave - that's what cleaves the balls in two. You are some kinda amateur if you didn't know that already.

I await evidence of your own grandiose claims.



FON

Two of our resident experts, Famousdavis and Larryrsf, have stated that 1. head type (according to Famousdavis) and 2. shaft (according to Larryrsf) don't matter. Accordingly this arguement is moot.

We should all play Ping Eye 2's with graphite shafts.

Thread Closed//

Many good players, pro's, use cb's. At some level of skill it has more to do with trajacory. For examlpe, jb holmes uses a cb while poulter uses a blade.

Many slower swingers can benefit from a higher launch cb in longer irons. This has nothing to do with ability to hit the 'sweet spot'.

Many good players, pro's, use cb's. At some level of skill it has more to do with trajacory. For examlpe, jb holmes uses a cb while poulter uses a blade.

Many slower swingers can benefit from a higher launch cb in longer irons. This has nothing to do with ability to hit the 'sweet spot'.

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]OK, fine. Look, I've got no problem with people using whatever they feel they play the best with - I'm sure I've made that very clear in the past. Sure - your cavity backs are more forgiving... but they're not saving you any more shots than any other clubhead design - even if it seems to feel like it. I also never said your dispersion wasn't tight - I did however say that it was likely NO TIGHTER than it would be with a blade or MB. Scores will not automatically shoot up by 5 shots just because a player abandons player's CB's in favor of blades or MB's - I can attest to that personally, as can many other converts. It's a blatant lie, and yes, I take issue with it. If we're to have a legitimate discussion about the merits and myths of blade irons, I do believe that the truth has a valid place in the discussion, agreed?

I have a problem with the dogma, that only the best of the best players are even remotely qualified to use blades. You don't seem to have a problem parroting that same dogma, yet you accuse ME of sounding like the evangelical.

My only agenda is to expose the fraud that is most of today's modern marketing BS. Their agenda is to perpetuate misinformation and to misrepresent the true influence of their GI technology so that they can make as much money as possible.

I can see why you'd take their word over mine. My agenda obviously seems much more sinister by comparison.

Please leave a generous donation in the collection plate which I will be passing around momentarily.



FON[/QUOTE]

I fully agree with you that "Game Improvement" clubs do not improve one's game; they merely cover flaws. However, the person who is going to buy that sort of club is unlikely to be spending lots of time on practice and on lessons. In other words, a truly recreational golfer. They may play only once a month, or even less.
But these clubs meet the needs of a particular market segment, those who don't want to be punished too severely for having a bad swing. That's their privilege in a free society.

As I've said before, I only snow ski 4-6 days per year, so I don't need, and won't benefit from, high end performance oriented skis. I need something the golf equivalent of a "player's cavity back;" a set of skis that turn well, are stable, and perform reasonably well, but aren't stiff and unforgiving if I do something stupid; they offer a little bit of forgivenss. They're a detuned version of a higher performance ski. They meet my needs perfectly. Getting better is not my ambition; I just want to enjoy myself skiing at a better than average level.

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]OK, fine. Look, I've got no problem with people using whatever they feel they play the best with - I'm sure I've made that very clear in the past. Sure - your cavity backs are more forgiving... but they're not saving you any more shots than any other clubhead design - even if it seems to feel like it. I also never said your dispersion wasn't tight - I did however say that it was likely NO TIGHTER than it would be with a blade or MB. Scores will not automatically shoot up by 5 shots just because a player abandons player's CB's in favor of blades or MB's - I can attest to that personally, as can many other converts. It's a blatant lie, and yes, I take issue with it. If we're to have a legitimate discussion about the merits and myths of blade irons, I do believe that the truth has a valid place in the discussion, agreed?

I have a problem with the dogma, that only the best of the best players are even remotely qualified to use blades. You don't seem to have a problem parroting that same dogma, yet you accuse ME of sounding like the evangelical.

My only agenda is to expose the fraud that is most of today's modern marketing BS. Their agenda is to perpetuate misinformation and to misrepresent the true influence of their GI technology so that they can make as much money as possible.

I can see why you'd take their word over mine. My agenda obviously seems much more sinister by comparison.

Please leave a generous donation in the collection plate which I will be passing around momentarily.



FON[/QUOTE]

You are just plain wrong. If the ball is contacted just off of center with a cavity back it has been proven that it will lose less distance than if the same shot was played with a blade. Tests have shown this. This could result in the blade shot ending up in a bunker while the cavity back shot hits the green. Over time, the forgiveness will indeed save shots and lower scores. I agree that huge cavity backs will lead to slopiness and defeat the purpose. Bottom line, you are wrong and have an issue with ego. Pretty silly when you consider the only goal is to finish 18 in as few strokes as possible.

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]All done with driver, right on the sweet spot. Compressed to bits - literally. You see those little red arrows in the bottom picture? Point of impact. You see those ring-like patterns emanating from the points of impact? Compression shockwave - that's what cleaves the balls in two. You are some kinda amateur if you didn't know that already.

I await evidence of your own grandiose claims.



FON[/QUOTE]

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[QUOTE=poe4soul]Many good players, pro's, use cb's. At some level of skill it has more to do with trajacory. For examlpe, jb holmes uses a cb while poulter uses a blade.

Many slower swingers can benefit from a higher launch cb in longer irons. This has nothing to do with ability to hit the 'sweet spot'.[/QUOTE]

Most of Poulter's clubs are Pro CBs.

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]All done with driver, right on the sweet spot. Compressed to bits - literally. You see those little red arrows in the bottom picture? Point of impact. You see those ring-like patterns emanating from the points of impact? Compression shockwave - that's what cleaves the balls in two. You are some kinda amateur if you didn't know that already.

I await evidence of your own grandiose claims.



FON[/QUOTE]

Holy ****, what's your swing speed, 150?

I've never seen a ball crack when hit in the middle of a driver clubface. Only the face splitting.

[QUOTE=Mizuno>Ping]Holy ****, what's your swing speed, 150?

I've never seen a ball crack when hit in the middle of a driver clubface. Only the face splitting.[/QUOTE]


Isn't it interesting that they are different models of different brands? Hmmmm......


Yeah, We've all found balls like that before, too. However, most people wouldn't bother to keep a collection.......

Oh, I forgot to mention.....someday I'll show you a photo of my collection of roadkill squirrels, skunks, and opossums.....

Then he switched during the year. The point is that there's more than just forgiveness on a cavity back design. You also get a higher launch angel. This is advantageous for many different reasons one being a slower swing speed in the the longer clubs.

[QUOTE=poe4soul]while poulter uses a blade.[/QUOTE]

Poulter = Cûnt

Therefore

Cûnts play blades

//Thread closed//

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]Poulter = Cûnt

Therefore

Cûnts play blades

//Thread closed//

Edgey[/QUOTE]

As I mentioned in another thread, Kenny Perry plays cavity backs and he is a possy, so you are losing faulty logic, my English friend . . . . . [img]http://www.getsmile.com/emoticons/heroes-smileys-64589/englishman.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]As I mentioned in another thread, Kenny Perry plays cavity backs and he is a possy, so you are losing faulty logic, my English friend . . . . . [img]http://www.getsmile.com/emoticons/heroes-smileys-64589/englishman.gif[/img][/QUOTE]

I believe the logic of my argument was flawless. I accept that throwing KP into the mix has thrown a spanner into the works. I will work on it.

Edgey

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]As I mentioned in another thread, Kenny Perry plays cavity backs and he is a possy, so you are losing faulty logic, my English friend . . . . . [img]http://www.getsmile.com/emoticons/heroes-smileys-64589/englishman.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
Clearly what is necessary to settle this argument is another list of RESPECTED players that play blades, and RESPECTED players that play cavity backs. That should settle it once and for all, don't you think?......
I can't imagine anyone ever raising this question again, if such irrefutable proof is provided.....

(Cue the Tiger lovers)

Another point about the whole technology/game improvement debate is that we are only talking irons here. For the most part irons are still essentially the same now as they were 20 years ago i.e. a forged or cast clubhead on a steel shaft. IMO irons are the one piece of equipment that has not made any real advances for most players. Lofts have got stronger and shafts have got longer to make people think they are hitting longer, but that's about it. There is no doubt that there have been significant advances in drivers, fairway woods, and especially balls, as can be seen by what the pro's use. There is also no doubt that a 460cc titanium driver with a graphite shaft and using a modern 3 piece solid ball will produce better results than a persimmon headed driver and a wound balata. But I just don't see so called SGI irons making the game any easier than blades. The only real advance in irons in the last few years has been in clubfitting, but again that improves performance in all types of iron, not just SGI or GI shovels.

I think FON and DM are both right. But DM just fails to see where FON is coming from. FON is simply saying that blades can be played by more people than is generally accepted.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]


I think FON and DM are both right. But DM just fails to see where FON is coming from. FON is simply saying that blades can be played by more people than is generally accepted.[/QUOTE]
I could play blades if I chose to do so. I've played transition sets before; the Hogan Apex FTX. It morphed from a muscle cavity in the longer irons to blades in the short irons. I agree that blades aren't as tough as some people make them out to be. I also know that they are no more difficult to hit than cavity backs in the higher lofts. Where I lose out is in the longer irons; a player's cavity back gives me better results when you take the average of 10 shots made with either club. I'm just playing my percentages to have a more forgiving club in the longer irons, and don't need the forgiveness in the shorter, higher lofted clubs, with shorter shafts allowing a more vertical swing plane.

[QUOTE=dorkman53]I could play blades if I chose to do so. I've played transition sets before; the Hogan Apex FTX. It morphed from a muscle cavity in the longer irons to blades in the short irons. I agree that blades aren't as tough as some people make them out to be. I also know that they are no more difficult to hit than cavity backs in the higher lofts. Where I lose out is in the longer irons; a player's cavity back gives me better results when you take the average of 10 shots made with either club. I'm just playing my percentages to have a more forgiving club in the longer irons, and don't need the forgiveness in the shorter, higher lofted clubs, with shorter shafts allowing a more vertical swing plane.[/QUOTE]
Your logic is perfectly acceptable. You choose to play your clubs, but it's not necessarily because blades are too hard for you tom play. What FON and the rest of us have been saying is that there is a misconception that if you aren't a good player you can't hit blades. IMO no matter what your handicap, blades should be an option you explore, especially if yau generate good chs.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Your logic is perfectly acceptable. You choose to play your clubs, but it's not necessarily because blades are too hard for you tom play. What FON and the rest of us have been saying is that there is a misconception that if you aren't a good player you can't hit blades. IMO no matter what your handicap, blades should be an option you explore, especially if yau generate good chs.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this because I often see people who shoot in the low to mid 80's hit their irons just about as good as people who shoot in the 70's. The difference is in the pitching, sand saves and blow up holes.

[QUOTE=Mizuno>Ping]Holy ****, what's your swing speed, 150?

I've never seen a ball crack when hit in the middle of a driver clubface. Only the face splitting.[/QUOTE]


Every time I've measured my driver swingspeed it's been somewhere between 120-125 mph (measured with my own Medicus Powermeter and a buddy's Beltronic radar). There may be times when it's slightly higher than that when I'm swinging really well. It doesn't take an insane amount of speed to break a golf ball - but there IS a trick to it... you have to create a swing arc which (at impact) places the center of mass of the golf ball in line with the center of mass of the clubhead, perpendicular to the loft of the clubface - and the club also has to be traveling along this same axis of alignment. That's how to generate maximum compression. If you do that and you swing fast enough, you can break pretty much any ball.

[QUOTE=dorkman53]Isn't it interesting that they are different models of different brands? Hmmmm......


Yeah, We've all found balls like that before, too. However, most people wouldn't bother to keep a collection.......

Oh, I forgot to mention.....someday I'll show you a photo of my collection of roadkill squirrels, skunks, and opossums.....[/QUOTE]

Any ball which I happen to find which I won't put in play goes in the shag bag. You'll remember from my swing vids that I'm the guy who has the giant 14'x20' practice net in his backyard... that's where I hit all those shag balls, and that's where I break them.

I understand that you're skeptical, and I actually think that's a virtue - but you aren't merely skeptical, you don't seem to believe anything. What would it take to convince you? A swing vid of me actually hitting and breaking the ball then holding it up to the camera? Fuk... you're harder to please than a woman.



FON

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Your logic is perfectly acceptable. You choose to play your clubs, but it's not necessarily because blades are too hard for you tom play. [B]What FON and the rest of us have been saying is that there is a misconception that if you aren't a good player you can't hit blades[/B]. IMO no matter what your handicap, blades should be an option you explore, especially if yau generate good chs.[/QUOTE]


That's exactly what I've been trying to say. I just haven't been trying hard enough to get my point across without ruffling some feathers a bit... :D

[QUOTE=famousdavis]I agree with this because I often see people who shoot in the low to mid 80's hit their irons just about as good as people who shoot in the 70's. The difference is in the pitching, sand saves and blow up holes.[/QUOTE]

I'm in agreement with this as well. There are lots of great ballstrikers who for one reason or another just don't seem to score as well as most of us would expect - enough to see that handicap is a relatively poor indicator of ballstriking ability. Scores are scores and shots are shots - the two can sometimes be mutually exclusive talents.

I'm starting to like you FD. You can give it as good as you take it and you've got that "larger than life" persona that just meshes well with the GR vibe. I guess you can stay...

BTW - don't think that just because I'm being nice to you means I'm through giving you a hard time...

I got my i's on u punk.



FON

So you got Mizuno blood ruunning through your veins Kiwi. As per my sig I play 57s. bagged the 60s and loved them, except I hit a gorgeous draw with them. The 57s are 3/4 inch longer and I hit them straighter and longer for some reason. I recently purchased some mp 37s in gorgeous shape with s300 shafts, dont no if I,m gonna like them after playing project x shafts for years I am going to use them for range work, and practice, Hope to get the same results you are, cause when Mizuno blades are pured its a thing of beauty. This winter gonna get a few lessons and hammer some beer, they got a bar in the training area. and work on my long irons 3,4 iron mostly and some short game problems. The other day I kept a 5 iron low into the wind, long green, tucked pin right back, greenfront left, 200 yards that day,it rolled within 5 feet of pin, on a cool day, everybody else is banging 3 wood and hybrids and there all like F&#k, gotta love it, gff forever

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]Every time I've measured my driver swingspeed it's been somewhere between 120-125 mph (measured with my own Medicus Powermeter and a buddy's Beltronic radar). There may be times when it's slightly higher than that when I'm swinging really well. It doesn't take an insane amount of speed to break a golf ball - but there IS a trick to it... you have to create a swing arc which (at impact) places the center of mass of the golf ball in line with the center of mass of the clubhead, perpendicular to the loft of the clubface - and the club also has to be traveling along this same axis of alignment. That's how to generate maximum compression. [B]If you do that and you swing fast enough, you can break pretty much any ball.[/B]


Any ball which I happen to find which I won't put in play goes in the shag bag. You'll remember from my swing vids that I'm the guy who has the giant 14'x20' practice net in his backyard... that's where I hit all those shag balls, and that's where I break them.

I understand that you're skeptical, and I actually think that's a virtue - but you aren't merely skeptical, you don't seem to believe anything. What would it take to convince you? A swing vid of me actually hitting and breaking the ball then holding it up to the camera? Fuk... you're harder to please than a woman.



FON[/QUOTE]
A few years ago I was mucking around with some cheapies, 'bullet tour' 2 piece urathane, and I found I was splitting them pretty consistently. At that time I was hitting the ball fairly solidly, but I still couldn't believe I could crack a golf ball from a legit swing. In competition I broke one with driver, and one with 5 wood. I've never split any other balls so I put it down to the ball, but it was still pretty cool to tell my buddies I was changing ball because I spit the little fukka in half.

Last week one of the retailers in Vancouver was selling all their Mizuno "fitting irons".They had a couple of barrels of them.I bought a MP 32,MP 57,MP 62, & MP 67.As they were only $10.00 each,I thought why not see which one works best.All are 6 irons, standard lie and shaft length.There was a MP 30 there but it was X flex and 1" over as opposed to the S300 in the rest.After one range session the MP 32 is my favorite,but we will see.Right now I am using Nakashima NP 1 with rifle 5.5,which are close to the MP 30 iron.