Power Fade

What exactly is a power fade? What are it's advantages? Who is able to master this technique (Are there specific flexibility or strength requirements, only i hear many commentators speak of only Tiger being able to pull it off because of his strength)?
What are the trajectory and flight charecteristics of this shot?

Hope someone can answer this, like others i hear about it but only loosely without description.

Don't think it's anything fancy.

As far as I see, it's what people call when they have a big slice & want to hit the ball as hard as they can. They aim well down the left & let rip.... usually a terrible tactic as the shape removes most of the distance advantage.

Tiger plays with a controlled (but pronounced) fade. He also hits it hard... a very different thing.

Tiger can play a power fade when he wants to, or needs to. A power fade is NOT a "big slice" hit hard. A power fade starts out left (for right handed swingers) and then moves strongly to the right, and usually has a long, high trajectory. Fred Couples hits a power fade, so does John Daly. Jack Nicklaus always preferred the fade. What it offers is more control than a draw, and lands more softly.

From your description of a power fade " A power fade starts out left (for right handed swingers) and then moves strongly to the right", I'm struggling to see the difference between this and a slice.

A slice has a similar high trajectory.

Seems like your only differentiator is that a slice totally comes across the ball, whilst a "power fade" comes slightly less across the ball, thereby making it slightly straighter.

[QUOTE=garcia is god]From your description of a power fade " A power fade starts out left (for right handed swingers) and then moves strongly to the right", I'm struggling to see the difference between this and a slice.

A slice has a similar high trajectory.

Seems like your only differentiator is that a slice totally comes across the ball, whilst a "power fade" comes slightly less across the ball, thereby making it slightly straighter.[/QUOTE]
Dumbass, there is a definite difference.

Slice is when Hackers cannot control their shots and they go out of bounds to the right with crazy roll.

Power fade is slight left to right fade that lands soft with minimum roll.

Know your facts.

[QUOTE=HappyW@*!]Dumbass, there is a definite difference.

Slice is when Hackers cannot control their shots and they go out of bounds to the right with crazy roll.

Power fade is slight left to right fade that lands soft with minimum roll.

Know your facts.[/QUOTE]


I disagree dear boy - a slice does not have to be something so wild. It has nothing whatsoever to do with control. Control is merely a function of predictability - I've played with many guys with horrific ball flights, however they know exactly where it's going & adjust their set-ups accordingly.

If you aim down the extreme left of a reasonably wide fairway & it ends up on the extreme right, that's a slice - it doesn't have to go out of bounds on the right (though if you aim straight with the same shot, it could easily happen).

Neither does a slice need "crazy roll" - Many slices are soft.

It's a very fine line between an exaggerated fade & a slice. Perhaps you play with the latter & have convinced yourself it's the former? :confused:

you can't possibly know so little about golf and have as many posts as you have on this forum. There is absolutely nothing comparable with a power fade and a slice. To even suggest that there is is ridiculous. A slice is most definitely a wild shot...and while perpetual slicers might be able to predict where the ball is going and adjust accordingly is not the same thing as setting up and hitting a power fade.
BTW: I used the wrong word in a previous post. I should have said that a power fade starts out left and then "moves" to the right in a controlled fashion. A power fade is called that because it has about as much distance as a straight shot; unlike a slice wherein you lose a considerable amount of distance as the ball bends hard to the right and away from the target, and has a definite amount of roll to the right.
How long have you been playing this game anyway?

Garcia the choker.

You have my permission to stay silence on this subject as you know nothing about golf.

Once again.

Slice : Hackers
Power Fade : Pros who shoots slight slice on purpose.

[url]http://www.leaderboard.com/GLOSSARY_POWERFADE[/url]

Anyway, please stay away as you know nothing about golf.

This issue about a slice only being wild is utterly laughable.

I've seen an endless process of (consistent) slicers in real life. They all compensate the same way (without fail). They open up their stance & aim down the left, starting the ball down the left & finishing down the right.

I'm aware there is a difference between this & a fade (& that good players do often deliberately set up to play a fade). This is not a point of contention.

What I'm disputing is a "Power Fade". Tiger hits the ball a mile - his fades go far. However, the idea that there's NO distance loss with this shot is hilarious. If you think, say for Daly, that his "power fade" goes the same as when he plays a right-left shot, this is inaccurate.

A Power Fade is simply a large fade, hit hard.

PS: How about that, I replied to your post without insulting you personally... a hard achievement certainly :)

[QUOTE=HappyW@*!]
[B]Slice[/B] : Hackers
Power Fade : Pros who shoots [B]slight slice[/B] on purpose.
[/QUOTE]

So you agree then that the only difference is between a "slice" & a "slight slice"?

That's exactly what I said above - the difference is marginal... who defines "slight"?

Or is it when an 18 handicapper does it, it's a slice & when John Daly does it, it's a power fade? :)

The "intention" behind the shot is utterly irrelevant - it is what it is.

Cheers gussie, so then i presume that the advantage is the left side is taken out of play and the old saying "you can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen" is the safety.

Thanks, but a power fade doesn't take the left side of the fairway out of play...it takes the right side out of play. That is, for a right-handed player aiming down the left side of the fariway and hitting a fade, he/she is taking the right side out of play (like avoiding a hazard or trying to move the ball around a dogleg to the right hole. Generally speaking, if a player lines up on the left side of the tee box he most likely is going to hit a fade, and if he lines up on the right side of the box he is going to play a draw (and take the left side of the hole out of play.
At the professional level, these different shots are hit at will from not only the tee box, but the fairway also. In fact, watch a good wedge player and you'll see that the ball flight is a slight fade, allowing the ball to land soft without much roll.

[QUOTE=garcia is god]So you agree then that the only difference is between a "slice" & a "slight slice"?

That's exactly what I said above - the difference is marginal... who defines "slight"?

Or is it when an 18 handicapper does it, it's a slice & when John Daly does it, it's a power fade? :)

The "intention" behind the shot is utterly irrelevant - it is what it is.[/QUOTE]
Read the post again dumbass. Im pretty sure i mentioned

Crazy roll

Slight roll.

anyway, please stop posting, u know nothing about golf.

[QUOTE=HappyW@*!]Read the post again dumbass. Im pretty sure i mentioned

Crazy roll

Slight roll.

anyway, please stop posting, u know nothing about golf.[/QUOTE]

But other than your fixation with roll, we agree completely? i.e. the difference is only the degree of slice?

How about that? I became the first person to ever agree with Happy. :D

A major characteristic of a "power fade" is that it is an intentionally shaped shot, usually from the tee box. It features a long, high trajectory and does not lose distance from a comparable STRAIGHT shot (go rerread my previous post). Yes, a draw because of the pronounced right to left overspin gets more roll, thus more distance. But I didn't compare the power fade to a draw; I compared it to a STRAIGHT shot. Check out a golf dictionary before you make the kind of wild assumptions that you do.
Also, it would do you good to learn something about the game of golf, follow the game, and maybe play a reasonably good game before responding to any post that is asking for definitions or advice about the game. It is obvious that you don't have the faintest idea about the game, exemplified, by the way, by your list of golfers that you "hate".
What a jerk.

[QUOTE=Gussie]A major characteristic of a "power fade" is that it is an intentionally shaped shot, usually from the tee box. It features a long, high trajectory and does not lose distance from a comparable STRAIGHT shot (go rerread my previous post). Yes, a draw because of the pronounced right to left overspin gets more roll, thus more distance. But I didn't compare the power fade to a draw; I compared it to a STRAIGHT shot. Check out a golf dictionary before you make the kind of wild assumptions that you do.
.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'll ignore the personal insult (once again)as you're seemingly unable to conduct a conversation without a barrage of verbal abuse. At least Happy is a self-confessed troll, you are just being spiteful - please stop it.

The answers to your points:

1) Intention has NOTHING to do with what a shot is. Someone may be trying to play a draw & end up with a fade. It's a fade. If somebody tries to play a fade & ends up with a fade.. guess what? It's a fade. If I try to hit a soaring draw & end up topping the ball, it's a top. Please STOP bringing intention into the resultant shot.

2) The only way a faded shot goes as far as a straight shot is if it is hit harder. Using the laws of physics, please explain how a straight shot hit at the same speed as a fade could possibly go the same distance. As I said, a "power fade" is simply a large fade hit HARDER.

I repeat: A power fade is a large fade hit harder. There is a fine line between a large fade & (to quote Happy) a slight slice.

:)

You're an idiot! Go learn something about golf.

I'm not surprised that you chose this route to exit this argument.

This is why my man Happy is 10 times the man you'll ever be. All you are capable of is snide comments & then a cowardly exit.

[QUOTE=19handicap]frigin A this thread and board officially suck. come on who really cares what defines what ball flight. honestly youre acting like your all 10.
golf review sucks. (hopefully we get back to the glory days :p )[/QUOTE]
I would agree that one of the biggest problems on this board is how to handle disagreements. There is a very vocal minority who simply can't disagree without being rude and inflammatory (the flamers). There is also an even smaller minority who deliberately try to be abusive and inflammatory (the trolls, who are usually also flamers). The fact that this board has not found an effective way to deal with the persistent flamers and trolls has led to the loss of many good members, who now frequent other boards instead of this one.

[QUOTE=dorkman53]I would agree that one of the biggest problems on this board is how to handle disagreements. There is a very vocal minority who simply can't disagree without being rude and inflammatory (the flamers). There is also an even smaller minority who deliberately try to be abusive and inflammatory (the trolls, who are usually also flamers). The fact that this board has not found an effective way to deal with the persistent flamers and trolls has led to the loss of many good members, who now frequent other boards instead of this one.[/QUOTE]

It's a huge problem at the moment. The trolls such as Happy are so blatantly trolling that one can easily ignore them. Others such as Gussie pose a huge problem - right from the go he is extremely abusive simply on the basis of a harmless disagreement. I wonder why these people have such anger in their lives.

Regardless of how they say it to you.... a Slice has almost zero place in a discussion on a Power Fade, especially one where people are dropping the names of Pro's.

You really are in the wrong thread on this one, be best to just drop it and move to another.

If I, a hacker, can laugh after an obvious Slice and call it a "Power Fade" as I mock myself and the shot I just blew out my rear then you should know the difference as well. Why are you arguing at all? You brought out flames through ignorance or intent? Either way, again.... let it go.

The Trolls may be a problem but again they are easy to ignore.

[QUOTE=Gussie]Thanks, but a power fade doesn't take the left side of the fairway out of play...it takes the right side out of play. That is, for a right-handed player aiming down the left side of the fariway and hitting a fade, he/she is taking the right side out of play (like avoiding a hazard or trying to move the ball around a dogleg to the right hole. Generally speaking, if a player lines up on the left side of the tee box he most likely is going to hit a fade, and if he lines up on the right side of the box he is going to play a draw (and take the left side of the hole out of play.
At the professional level, these different shots are hit at will from not only the tee box, but the fairway also. In fact, watch a good wedge player and you'll see that the ball flight is a slight fade, allowing the ball to land soft without much roll.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, i am only taking the real comments from this thread not the niggly ones....so, help me out a touch, if you stand on the right to hit a draw wouldn't your clubhead path be slight out so have no room to play with on the right, hitting a draw (vice versa for fade). So If i stand right side, play a fade worst thing that can happen, barring a double cross, is that i go straight to left fairway (plenty room to work with)....If i keep the face square to open through umpact, as intended it cuts to centre fairway.

Or maybe the difference between the two can be defined by what the clubface does at impact and the result on the ball. On a slice the clubface stays open and the energy cant
completely transfer to the ball so what you get is a pronounced slice that doesn't go very high or that far. In a power fade the clubhead is fully released like in any other shot, just that the ball is in a different position, most likely forward, and what results is a high driving shot that fades about 5 - 10 yards and is remarkably consistent distance wise.

I've gone from a slice to a draw over the summer but have learned how to position the ball for a fade, the only thing I really have to remember is to release the clubhead or a slice can result fairly easily.

a power fade is just a regular fade only hit harder...hence the reason they call it a power fade...its just when you overswing and the ball fades....same as the power draw.....

why is everyone on Garcia so bad....can't any of you refrain from child like attacks of the personal nature???

i mean seriously....happy your're a fuc.king hacker...shut the F.UCK UP.....

eveyone else piss off....f.ucking trivial differences....

no a slice is not a ball that goes crazy wild and into the woods....you can play a slice consistently

it is defined as a ball flight that moves strongly from left to right...that's it...nothing about woods or out of bounds mentioned...

A fade is produced by having a 'proper' swing path - ie coming to the ball from the inside, yet keeping the clubface slightly open through impact. Hogan found his way to do this and cure his hooks.... Coming from the inside ensures a powerful strike and the open face will produce some left to right movement.

A slice is produced by an out to in swing path - ie the standard hacker's swingpath, casting, over the top etc - with a clubface that is open through impact. The crappy swing path leaks power and the open clubface gives you the hideous slicing ball flight.


The misleading bit is that 'fade' sounds more impressive, so it gets used by anyone no matter the horrific slice they're producing.

Now then, a pull hook on the other hand .... blah blah blah.

Coops

[QUOTE=neverman]Regardless of how they say it to you.... a Slice has almost zero place in a discussion on a Power Fade, especially one where people are dropping the names of Pro's.

You really are in the wrong thread on this one, be best to just drop it and move to another.

If I, a hacker, can laugh after an obvious Slice and call it a "Power Fade" as I mock myself and the shot I just blew out my rear then you should know the difference as well. Why are you arguing at all? You brought out flames through ignorance or intent? Either way, again.... let it go.

The Trolls may be a problem but again they are easy to ignore.[/QUOTE]

Not really - the statement I'm making is incredibly simple:

[B]There is a fine line between a slice & a large fade, that's it - nothing else. [/B]

Not a single person has put forward a valid counter argument as to why there is NO CONNECTION between the 2.

- Both come across the ball (to different degrees)
- I've seen plenty of slices where there has been a release.

The argument most people seem to be making is one of intent, which is utterly irrelevant when it comes to classifying a shot.

Premise: "You can talk to a fade, a hook doesn't listen." Lee Trevino

The idea here being a fade is easier to consistantly control. Yes you'll lose a bit of distance, but it takes left out of the equation and you will always score better if you have an idea where the ball is headed (duh). If you try to hit a straight shot every time, it most often goes something to the right or left, a fade always goes to the right, thus you now know where your shot is going before you hit it. Almost all pros and better amatures are working the ball in some fashion on all shots. You should hit the shot you feel most confident with, but as a generality most players are pretty wild attempting a draw while they can hit fades fairly consistantly.

I would suggest a few practice rounds where you hit all straight shots one round, all draws the next, then all fades to finish up. My bet is your "fade" round will have the lower score.

POWER FADE

Tee the ball further forward than your normal ball position
Tee the ball higher
Aim your body to the left of the fairway (or even further left)..
Aim your clubface at the center of the fairway. Use a slightly weaker left hand grip..
Swing along the line of your feet/shoulders at address...

STAY behind the shot...do not move forward laterally because the ball is more forward than your normal ball position...

[QUOTE=Omen]
why is everyone on Garcia so bad....can't any of you refrain from child like attacks of the personal nature???

i mean seriously....happy your're a fuc.king hacker...shut the F.UCK UP.....

eveyone else piss off....f.ucking trivial differences....

[/QUOTE]
hahahahaah you loser.

stop posting.

[QUOTE=andrew7]POWER FADE

Tee the ball further forward than your normal ball position
Tee the ball higher
Aim your body to the left of the fairway (or even further left)..
Aim your clubface at the center of the fairway. Use a slightly weaker left hand grip..
Swing along the line of your feet/shoulders at address...

STAY behind the shot...do not move forward laterally because the ball is more forward than your normal ball position...[/QUOTE]

[B]RIDICULOUS![/B]

you should always tee the ball lower when you want to fade it - this encourages a steeper blow onto the ball and thus a fade/slice. when you tee it higher you are actually encouraging a draw/hook due to the shallower angle of attack.

[QUOTE=Gussie]Thanks, but a power fade doesn't take the left side of the fairway out of play...it takes the right side out of play. That is, for a right-handed player aiming down the left side of the fariway and hitting a fade, he/she is taking the right side out of play (like avoiding a hazard or trying to move the ball around a dogleg to the right hole. Generally speaking, if a player lines up on the left side of the tee box he most likely is going to hit a fade, and if he lines up on the right side of the box he is going to play a draw (and take the left side of the hole out of play.
[/QUOTE]

also [B]RIDICULOUS![/B] probably the most stupid thing i've ever heard.

you should know that when you want to take the [B]right side[/B] of the fairway (or right of the fairway!) out of play you tee up on the [B]right side[/B] of the tee box and thus you are aiming more to the left naturally. vice-versa for when you want to take the left hand side out of play.

sheesh. and you know loads about golf? [B]IDIOT[/B]

[QUOTE=garcia is god]Not really - the statement I'm making is incredibly simple:

[B]There is a fine line between a slice & a large fade, that's it - nothing else. [/B]

Not a single person has put forward a valid counter argument as to why there is NO CONNECTION between the 2.

- Both come across the ball (to different degrees)
- I've seen plenty of slices where there has been a release.

The argument most people seem to be making is one of intent, which is utterly irrelevant when it comes to classifying a shot.[/QUOTE]

I think several people have countered your argument, i.e., a power fade does not result from an "outside-in" (coming across the ball) swing path, while a slice most definitely does. It doesn't matter if the club has been released, or not. If the swing path is coming from outside-in (casting) you most likely will get a slice no matter if you release the club, or not.

Davis Love is one of the best guys on the tour. Very dedicated family man who would do anything for anybody. He has morals and values. Maybe that is the reason you dislike him. Maybe he stands for something you can not stand.

You're right about lining up on the right side of the tee box and aiming left to take the right side of the fairway out of play. I responded too fast to monty's post.

[QUOTE=Gussie]You're right about lining up on the right side of the tee box and aiming left to take the right side of the fairway out of play. I responded too fast to monty's post.[/QUOTE]

okey dokey! nobody (except for me) is perfect.

A Power Fade is Tee'd high not low. It's in front of you far enough that teeing it low would stop the desired effect of a very high launch with very little roll. You have to hold the line on a power fade which suppreses the release of the club but there is indeed a release, it's just late. Try casting on this shot and you'll get a horrible slice. It would be very difficult to hook this shot if you stay behind it.

A slice comes from a poorly struck shot. A fade is a well struck shot, shaped a certain way as to be more consistent than a "straight" shot would play. You always know which way your misses, however slight, will go. Sure, they both turn left to right. If that's what you're arguing who cares. A slice loses distance due to a total lack of a release and a crappy set-up to compensate for it's flight or a lot of trouble down the right in that players future. A slice will make people turn away nd not comment. A Power Fade is a majestic shot, it is usually only out driven by a draw that rolls on by it.

I don't know what else you want to hear Garcia... you are opposing semantics or something? I really can't tell what your point is at this time and I don't care to read back through all the rif-raf to find out, sorry.

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre][B]RIDICULOUS![/B]

you should always tee the ball lower when you want to fade it - this encourages a steeper blow onto the ball and thus a fade/slice. when you tee it higher you are actually encouraging a draw/hook due to the shallower angle of attack.

[/QUOTE]

Now you are really showing your ignorance...
We are talking about a power fade here, not a normal fade...

And for your information, the height of the ball on the tee doesn't make a damn bit of difference to whether you hit a fade or a draw. What makes the dufference is the angle of appraoch (in-to-out, or out-to-in) and whether the clubface is open or closed when it strikes the ball

Go back to basics mate, you are woefully short of knowledge....

Don't forget with a power fade you are using a weaker left-hand grip, so you can still release as normal, but when your hands release to where they would be normally (where the blade would be square to target), because of the weak grip the clubface will still be a little open.

Just go out and try it, stop discussing it and go out and DO it!................

BTW the set up I described in the post above is straight from Seve, from about 14 years ago, who was the first person I can remember using the term "Power Fade"......is he wrong then?.......:mad2:

Actually, teeing the ball lower does promote a fade with a driver...hence the reason why driver-off-the-deck almost always fades (off-the-deck is similar to teeing it really, really, really, really, low because there's no tee at all). If you tee it higher it promotes a draw...this is a fact.

A slice is a left to right shot. A power fade is a left to right shot. A fade is a left to right shot. A hook is a right to left shot. A draw is a right to left shot. A power draw is a right to left shot. Those were all assuming you're right handed. Whether or not a slice is only slightly more than a fade or a lot more than a fade depends on
a.) How good/crappy you are at golf.
b.) Who you're golfing with and how your game compares to theirs.
c.) How much alcohol you've consumed.

So, on that note, please stop writing about the difference between a BIG fade and a little SLICE. Nobody cares. Really. No, seriously. Not one single person cares. Think about it. I bet you don't even care. Just walk away from the keyboard. Or start a new thread on what the definition of "is" is. Please. STOP.

Thanks from everyone at Golfreview.

[IMG]http://666kb.com/i/ai9k1qiihis5gslv9.gif[/IMG]

Garcia, think of a slice as the result of a swing flaw, and a fade as the result of an intentional 'shaping' of the shot. (sure you can intentionally slice, but let's not get picayune here) A slice results in lost distance, while a power fade does not. There are other differences, as have been covered here, usually with snippy comments attached, for whatever reason, but a power fade & a slice, even a 'slight' slice, are indeed different.

I like my definition better...mainly because yours could prolong the life of this thread.


[QUOTE=swvaguy]Garcia, think of a slice as the result of a swing flaw, and a fade as the result of an intentional 'shaping' of the shot. (sure you can intentionally slice, but let's not get picayune here) A slice results in lost distance, while a power fade does not. There are other differences, as have been covered here, usually with snippy comments attached, for whatever reason, but a power fade & a slice, even a 'slight' slice, are indeed different.[/QUOTE]

Trevino hit the biggest banana fade you ever saw -- some may even call it a power-slice. Nicklaus? Fade...long and always in play. Gary Player? Low draw.

Mickelson played a low, natural fade when I saw him in person. 280 with no carry whatsover when he played the fade on the course I followed him around on.

I also remember seeing Payne Stewart hitting a high draw in person at the same event --around 280 with about 5 yards of carry.

To each his own.

What makes them special? Their second shots, iron play and putting.

Regards...
RS

:)

[QUOTE=RightSide]

Mickelson played a low, natural fade when I saw him in person. 280 with no carry whatsover

[/QUOTE]

No carry? Did the ball go 280 yards along the ground then?.....:D

[QUOTE=RightSide]Trevino hit the biggest banana fade you ever saw -- some may even call it a power-slice. Nicklaus? Fade...long and always in play. Gary Player? Low draw.

Mickelson played a low, natural fade when I saw him in person. 280 with no carry whatsover when he played the fade on the course I followed him around on.

I also remember seeing Payne Stewart hitting a high draw in person at the same event --around 280 with about 5 yards of carry.

To each his own.

What makes them special? Their second shots, iron play and putting.

Regards...
RS

:)[/QUOTE]

5 yard carry - so it rolled 275yards? this is nearly as impressive as the 280yard drive you described with no carry.

the TV really shows a different story.

[QUOTE=collegegolfer]Actually, teeing the ball lower does promote a fade with a driver...hence the reason why driver-off-the-deck almost always fades (off-the-deck is similar to teeing it really, really, really, really, low because there's no tee at all). If you tee it higher it promotes a draw...this is a fact. [/QUOTE]

ahem!
andrew if you were smart you would've read my post and realised it said "encouraged".

thank you, come again...

NEXT...

[QUOTE=andrew7]No carry? Did the ball go 280 yards along the ground then?.....:D[/QUOTE]
One of the greatest worm burner shots of all time.......truly one for the ages.......

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]



ahem!
andrew if you were smart you would've read my post and realised it said "encouraged".

thank you, come again...

NEXT...[/QUOTE]

It's not a question of encouraging anything, it's a function of physics.

If you hit a driver off the deck (the lowest teeing height you can think of), generally the ball is going to contact the clubface below the sweet spot. Below the sweet spot the clubface has a negative curvature, and that portion of the club is severely delofted. If you were to set up for a draw, this delofts the clubface even more and the portion of the club that actually strikes the ball would be so delofted that it would probably hit the ball into, or right along the ground.
You sense this as you set the club up, so there is a tendancy to set the club up to the ball so it appears there is more loft. Therefore the club ends up slightly open to the target line which results in the fade...
Its not really anything to do with tee height, but our reaction to the visual appearance of the clubface at setup...

As for a high tee promoting a draw. Well if you swing correctly you can get a draw, but if you do an outside-in swing the ball WILL pull/slice/fade no matter what the tee height is...

[QUOTE=andrew7]It's not a question of encouraging anything, it's a function of physics.

If you hit a driver off the deck (the lowest teeing height you can think of), generally the ball is going to contact the clubface below the sweet spot. Below the sweet spot the clubface has a negative curvature, and that portion of the club is severely delofted. If you were to set up for a draw, this delofts the clubface even more and the portion of the club that actually strikes the ball would be so delofted that it would probably hit the ball into, or right along the ground.
You sense this as you set the club up, so there is a tendancy to set the club up to the ball so it appears there is more loft. Therefore the club ends up slightly open to the target line which results in the fade...
Its not really anything to do with tee height, but our reaction to the visual appearance of the clubface at setup...

As for a high tee promoting a draw. Well if you swing correctly you can get a draw, but if you do an outside-in swing the ball WILL pull/slice/fade no matter what the tee height is...[/QUOTE]

are you agreeing with me now!? you said the complete opposite of what you said earlier in the above post.
it is physics - ofcourse. all i was saying was a lower tee height encourages a fade because you feel like you have to "chop" or whatever, higher tee encourages a draw due to you feeling like you have to sweep - in your quoted post you agreed by referencing the lofts on the clubface. i was never saying that if you tee'd it high then you'd definetely draw it - if true it'd be the end to most peoples problems on the golf course. i said [B]encouraged[/B]

Yes but this discussion is about Power Fades. a totally different thing. You have to tee them high, which was my original point....

hahahaha

Hey, I'm enough of a man to admit I made the biggest typo ever -- not once but TWICE. Carry...roll...what's the difference? :)

I admit -- that's pretty funny (and appreciate the ball-busting). The longest putts/worm-burners in the history of golf, indeed. LOL

I promise not to drink two bottles of Merlot, shoot herion and smoke crack and then post on this forum again. hahaha :)

RS

[QUOTE=andrew7]Yes but this discussion is about Power Fades. a totally different thing. You have to tee them high, which was my original point....[/QUOTE]

i beg to differ. i think you don't [B]have[/B] to tee it high.

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]i beg to differ. i think you don't [B]have[/B] to tee it high.[/QUOTE]

OK you can differ......
So a guy who won 5 Majors, 85 Tour victories, appeared in 9 Ryder Cup teams and loads of other team events, is wrong then? And you are right....doh..

The whole point of a power fade is that it is launched on the upswing, without excessive backspin. Hence the long carry distance...

I think you must be getting it confused with what you call a "fade" which in probability is more like a slice with loads of backspin on it (because you've "hit down on it", which balloons upwards and then dies a death at 180 yards out...

Anyway, I'm off to email Seve now, to tell him he's been wrong all these years.......

[QUOTE=andrew7]OK you can differ......
So a guy who won 5 Majors, 85 Tour victories, appeared in 9 Ryder Cup teams and loads of other team events, is wrong then? And you are right....doh..

The whole point of a power fade is that it is launched on the upswing, without excessive backspin. Hence the long carry distance...

I think you must be getting it confused with what you call a "fade" which in probability is more like a slice with loads of backspin on it (because you've "hit down on it", which balloons upwards and then dies a death at 180 yards out...

Anyway, I'm off to email Seve now, to tell him he's been wrong all these years.......[/QUOTE]

please show me where you are referencing from.
there is more than 1 way to skin a cat...

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]please show me where you are referencing from.
there is more than 1 way to skin a cat...[/QUOTE]
"A preposition is not a part of speech to end a sentence with........"
But you knew that, being a brilliant scholar, or at least pretending to be one.....

[QUOTE=dorkman53]"A preposition is not a part of speech to end a sentence with........"
But you knew that, being a brilliant scholar, or at least pretending to be one.....[/QUOTE]

shouldn't you be making a thread about Michelle Wie?

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]please show me where you are referencing from.
there is more than 1 way to skin a cat...[/QUOTE]

Natural Golf by Severiano Ballesteros....get a copy..

And is was the first reference I'd seen labelled as a "Power Fade".. maybe he invented the term, who knows?......

[QUOTE=andrew7]Natural Golf by Severiano Ballesteros....get a copy..

And is was the first reference I'd seen labelled as a "Power Fade".. maybe he invented the term, who knows?......[/QUOTE]

"And is was..." wtf are you on about [B]mate[/B]?

[B][U][I]more than 1 way to skin a cat[/I][/U][/B]

NEXT...

so how many yards would some characterize a slice to be? 10+ yards of lateral movement? and how about a power fade? 5-10 yards of lateral movement? this seems to be my understanding of it...

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]"And is was..." wtf are you on about [B]mate[/B]?

[/QUOTE]

Typo idiot, couldn't you see I typo'd an "s" instead of a "t" ("And it was") pretty obvious one as well.....doh.....

Guys, the proper definition of a fade is when you are a single figure golfer. "Oh, I got a bit too much fade on that one". It's a power fade when you outhit everyone in your group with the fade. Therefore, if an 11 handicap hits it past everyone with a left to right ballflight, it was a 'lucky slice'.

Need I repeat my post yet again???


[QUOTE=collegegolfer]Actually, teeing the ball lower does promote a fade with a driver...hence the reason why driver-off-the-deck almost always fades (off-the-deck is similar to teeing it really, really, really, really, low because there's no tee at all). If you tee it higher it promotes a draw...this is a fact.

A slice is a left to right shot. A power fade is a left to right shot. A fade is a left to right shot. A hook is a right to left shot. A draw is a right to left shot. A power draw is a right to left shot. Those were all assuming you're right handed. Whether or not a slice is only slightly more than a fade or a lot more than a fade depends on
a.) How good/crappy you are at golf.
b.) Who you're golfing with and how your game compares to theirs.
c.) How much alcohol you've consumed.

So, on that note, please stop writing about the difference between a BIG fade and a little SLICE. Nobody cares. Really. No, seriously. Not one single person cares. Think about it. I bet you don't even care. Just walk away from the keyboard. Or start a new thread on what the definition of "is" is. Please. STOP.

Thanks from everyone at Golfreview.[/QUOTE]

Which am I, the world's tallest midget, or the world's shortest giant?

What is the sick perversion with posting in this thread? This has to be the single worst thread in the past 2 months, yet it just won't die.
And yes, I do realize that I have added my name to this thread, thereby making me a hypocrite.

[QUOTE=Horseballs]What is the sick perversion with posting in this thread? This has to be the single worst thread in the past 2 months, yet it just won't die.
And yes, I do realize that I have added my name to this thread, thereby making me a hypocrite.[/QUOTE]
Yeah; it's like posting "Don't feed the trolls" on a troll's thread......
Or a sign that says, "Ignore this sign"......

so in retrospect....what is a power fade....let's discuss

[QUOTE=andrew7]Typo idiot, couldn't you see I typo'd an "s" instead of a "t" ("And it was") pretty obvious one as well.....doh.....[/QUOTE]

i don's tee how you could sype an [B]s[/B] intsead of a [B]t[/B]. i looked on she keyboard so sry and figure ous what you were on abous bus obvioutly i didn's figure is ous.
she lessert in quetsion aren's shas clote on she keyboard - asleats mine.

NEXS...

I'm a two finger typist mate (and partially dislexic FYI) so although the keys don't look close to you, it is easy for me to do it........

And if you can't figure out that "And IS was the first reference...." should have been "And IT was the first reference..."........

You'll make a great lawyer then..................

[QUOTE=andrew7]I'm a two finger typist mate (and partially dislexic FYI) so although the keys don't look close to you, it is easy for me to do it........[/QUOTE]

chill winston, this whole thread is dead and buried.

Hahahaaaa ! This thread is hilarious. Power fades, slices, hooks, draws.......These shots are NOT as predictable as you all might think.

What separates the single digit handicapper from a hacker is the SECOND shot and his putts. Not which side of the fairway he hits his drive to. Its a game of angles. Spend your time trying to control a straight shot and your score will go lower. Try and play some type of draw, fade, slice, hook, and you'll get higher scores. A properly hit ball will fade about 2-5 yards from simple physics. An EXCELLENTLY hit ball will go straight and far.

Play what your given on any particular day, some days your hands may be "late", if so , its a fade type day, incrporate it into your course management. But never so much as to negate the effect of a properly hit ball, in other words, dont aim so far left or right that "if" you hit it correctly it will go out of bounds. Learn how to make your days where things arent all going together as planned, good days also, or at least not disasterous to your score card. THATS how you lower your handicap

[QUOTE=Da Blade]Hahahaaaa ! This thread is hilarious. Power fades, slices, hooks, draws.......These shots are NOT as predictable as you all might think.

What separates the single digit handicapper from a hacker is the SECOND shot and his putts. Not which side of the fairway he hits his drive to. Its a game of angles. Spend your time trying to control a straight shot and your score will go lower. Try and play some type of draw, fade, slice, hook, and you'll get higher scores. A properly hit ball will fade about 2-5 yards from simple physics. An EXCELLENTLY hit ball will go straight and far.

Play what your given on any particular day, some days your hands may be "late", if so , its a fade type day, incrporate it into your course management. But never so much as to negate the effect of a properly hit ball, in other words, dont aim so far left or right that "if" you hit it correctly it will go out of bounds. Learn how to make your days where things arent all going together as planned, good days also, or at least not disasterous to your score card. THATS how you lower your handicap[/QUOTE]

Suggest you read the first post in this thread.......

[QUOTE=Zaphod1][IMG]http://666kb.com/i/ai9k1qiihis5gslv9.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Haha... wonderful, so this thread is still going? What on earth are we discussing now... probably the least structure thread in history.

This diagram is hilarious though. Does anybody on here agree with it? It claims that a fade is one that starts completely straight - so ANY single shot that starts left of centre is a slice then?

:D

A power fade is what Nicklaus hit all his career.Had he not been the longest hitter out there it could hardly have been called a power fade could it? It would have been called a lack of power fade.

Actually with the curve of the swing the 'proper' ball flight is a draw, if you bring the club back to square at impact because you are coming around your body.

Oh, BTW, a power fade is what JB Holmes hits

Garcia is God,

I'm not gonna slag you, but shaped shots (draws and fades) do start out going straight and fade or draw after the ball is on its way - I don't know how far the ball travels before it starts fading or drawing, but the sidespin imparted on the ball doesn't override the backspin until it starts to slow down due to resistance to the air. And while a mishit fade may result in a slice, the intention of the shot IS important. A slice or hook are not shaped shots, they are poorly struck shots that many hackers simply compensate for, but it's not something a pro would ever intentionally do, unless he needed to go around trees or something. He certainly wouldn't hit a slice or hook off the tee. Joe Blow, who can't fix his slice is not 'intentionally' hitting a slice, he's accounting for it by aiming way left of target. He doesn't know what he's doing wrong and has given up trying to fix his crappy swing. He may unintentionally hit a fade once in a while and wonder, "How the hell did I do that?" But is unable to reproduce the swing that gave him the fade.

A power fade is what it's name implies a powerfully hit fade that goes long and high and tails slighlty to the right and lands softly, as opposed to a regular fade, which doesn't go as far because it wasn't hit as hard.

I don't know if teeing it up higher helps acheive a power fade, but a study done by golf digest confirms that teeing higher increases distance on all drives (fade or draw) by 10-15 yards.

Finally, the term 'Power Fade' was coined to describe Ben Hogan's swing, which the idioticbizarre rightly points out he developed to overcome a nasty tendency to occasionally snap-hook shots. I don't know if Hogan used the term himself or someone started referring to his shot as a power fade after reading his books "The 5 fundamentals of Modern Golf." in which he describes his fade as pwerful or in "Power Golf" when he does the same. But Hogan definitely talked about the control this shot gave him, which assumes 'intention' I think.

From Aboutgolf.com

Definition: "Fade" describes a trajectory or ball flight in which the golf ball comes off the clubface moving to the left of the target before curving gently back to the right (for a right-handed golfer; reverse directions for a left-hander).
The shape of a fade is the same as that of a slice, however, a slice is much more severe in its left-to-right (for right-handers) movement. A slice is the most common problem for recreational golfers. A fade, however, is often a shot played intentionally and is even the preferred ball flight for some of the best golfers in the world (Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan, among others, preferred to play a fade).

Also Known As: Cut or cut shot. A ball worked to produce a fade is often called a cut shot.

Perhaps now we can talk about the difference between a fade and a 'cut shot.' LOL
Definition: A "cut shot" is a type of controlled golf shot in which a golfer induces a fade ball flight. For a right-handed golfer, that means the ball moves from left-to-right in flight; for left-handers, the ball moves from right-to-left.
A cut shot is usually played in order to get the ball around some obstruction in its flight path. For example, your drive lands on the right side of the fairway, where overhanging branches pose a problem. A cut shot will start the ball out to the left - going around the problem - before moving the ball back to the right.

Cut shots are frequently played on approaches to the green, as well, as a way of avoiding greenside hazards. For example, a right-handed player facing a green that is well-protected on the right but open on the left might to play a cut shot, bringing the ball into the green from left-to-right.

Cut shots are played either by opening the club at impact, or by swinging on an outside-to-inside swing path.

tiger is hitting cut shots these days as well as daly....hmmmmm.....and isn't the fade a more natural ball flight.....

[QUOTE=artfuldodger]
I'm not gonna slag you, but shaped shots (draws and fades) do start out going straight and fade or draw after the ball is on its way -
[/QUOTE]

So, let me clarify. The diagram posted above claims that a fade NEVER goes left of the target line (look at it!). Do you agree with this?

[QUOTE=artfuldodger]
Joe Blow, who can't fix his slice is not 'intentionally' hitting a slice, he's accounting for it by aiming way left of target. He doesn't know what he's doing wrong and has given up trying to fix his crappy swing. He may unintentionally hit a fade once in a while and wonder, "How the hell did I do that?" But is unable to reproduce the swing that gave him the fade.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should start slagging me off then, as I said a billion times that the intention of a shot is utterly irrelevant. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the resultant shot. Please stop bringing it into any argument.

I'm not going to slag you off, BUT, just because YOU insist intention isn't a factor in differentiating between a slice and fade, that doesn't mean you are right. The definitions I posted clearly state that intention is necessary in the execution of a fade (or draw), whereas people only hit intentional slices in times of trouble. You were talking about guys you know who regularly hit slices off the tee. My argument is that they aren't intending to do that, they just can't help it.

Regarding the 'target line', lets clarify. Let's say you want to land the ball in the center of the green. That's your target. Let's say there is a tree in front of you. You want to cut it around the tree. You will aim, in this case, left of the tree. You will probably pick out a target, maybe another tree in the distance behind and left of the green - what people call an intermediate target.The line between you and the intermediate target is your target line. When you execute the 'cut shot' the ball will, for a while at least, head towards that intermediate target on the target line and then tail right towards the green. If it is a big tree, you will then have to intentionally slice it, in which case the ball actually goes left of the intermediate target, before dramatically curving right towards the green. Much harder to control the amount of curve though, because there is so much spin on the ball. No pro would intentionally hit a banana ball slice off the tee, unless they are trying to bend it around a dogleg. Even then, most times, they would either fade it around the corner, or cut the corner and go over the trees or whatever other trouble is at the corner of the dogleg. All intentionally. I've seen plenty of hackers, on the other hand, who hit a banana slice on a straight hole, aiming into OB left and bending it back onto the fairway, where it inevitably rolls hard right and ends up in the right rough. They aren't intentionally doing this. They don't know any other way to hit it. They are slicing the ball and wish they could stop, as they know they are losing distance and control. If you asked one of these guys to hit a draw, they couldn't do it on a bet.

Tiger always talks about the importance of controlling ball flight. When he starts swearing after a wayward tee shot, he's bemoaning an unintentional slice or hook.

Well, I agree with a lot of your post... but I NEVER said that a pro would deliberately hit a slice or hook off the tee - merely that there was a fine line between a power fade & a slice.
What you say about the target line is correct, however one could merely extrapolate the argument to a slice by claiming the "target line" to be furthest left it reaches on the arc.


[QUOTE=artfuldodger]I'm not going to slag you off, BUT, just because YOU insist intention isn't a factor in differentiating between a slice and fade, that doesn't mean you are right. The definitions I posted clearly state that intention is necessary in the execution of a fade (or draw), whereas people only hit intentional slices in times of trouble. You were talking about guys you know who regularly hit slices off the tee. My argument is that they aren't intending to do that, they just can't help it.
[/QUOTE]

However, here is where I don't agree with you. Quite simply a shot is defined by its characteristics (be it angle of attack, amount of spin, direction of spin, ball flight... whatever). If you gave all this data to a computer it could easily categorise this shot into a certain category (depending on the definitions). Nowhere does the intention come into this. An extreme (but true) example would be a topped shot. Does anybody ever intend to hit a top? You said Tiger oftens hits wild unintentional slices... well, if he deliberately played the shot, it would still be a slice.

Intention cannot possibly form part of a shot definition - it's illogical.

i agree with garcia...you cannot call a slice something else just because you intended to hit it....a ball that moves hard from left to right whether intentional or not is still a slice.....I have seen tiger on a range and he was showing the crowd how he can move the ball and he hit some very severe left to right shots of which he intended to do....he did not call the ball flight a "controlled hard fade or power controlled cut" but a slice....which is what it is.....my .02 cents...not worth much, I know............

Thats just semantics.The point is a power fade implies intent,a slice doesn't.I think Artful's point is simple and doesn't need further analyis.

In fact,this whole thread has slipped into pure hyperbole.A power fade is a not a term that can be analysed and an agreement made as to what it is because it will mean different things to different players.If I play a guy who gets it past me with a fade to me its a power fade,but if he was trying to hit draws they weren't power fades at all.

My view is a power fade is a a tee shot hit long with a driver that fades.

He may be right and you're fine supporting him but it has nothing to do with the thread. Move onto something useless like supporting the subject or opposing it.

what is a power draw?

[QUOTE=Macgregor]Thats just semantics.The point is a power fade implies intent,a slice doesn't.I think Artful's point is simple and doesn't need further analyis.
[/QUOTE]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.. .intent has ZERO to do with the resultant shot.

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]what is a power draw?[/QUOTE]

One that you intend. If you mishit it, it's a weak hook.

[QUOTE=Omen]i agree with garcia...you cannot call a slice something else just because you intended to hit it....a ball that moves hard from left to right whether intentional or not is still a slice.....I have seen tiger on a range and he was showing the crowd how he can move the ball and he hit some very severe left to right shots of which he intended to do....he did not call the ball flight a "controlled hard fade or power controlled cut" but a slice....which is what it is.....my .02 cents...not worth much, I know............[/QUOTE]

Thanks Omen.. I get the feeling that several people on here play with a strong left to right flight, but are in denial over what they're actually hitting.

[QUOTE=neverman]He may be right and you're fine supporting him but it has nothing to do with the thread. Move onto something useless like supporting the subject or opposing it.[/QUOTE]

useless or useful?

It has EVERYTHING to do with intent re power fade.A slice is a different matter,maybe.WTF knows and does anyone care?

[QUOTE=garcia is god]One that you intend. If you mishit it, it's a weak hook.[/QUOTE]

so what's a regular draw?

please show the differences. is a power draw one where you hit it harder? if so it is a ridiculous notion and it is just a draw.

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]so what's a regular draw?

please show the differences. is a power draw one where you hit it harder? if so it is a ridiculous notion and it is just a draw.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately I don't have the diagrams to explain it. However, here's roughly how it works:

If your handicap is < 10:

- it's ALWAYS a draw, or if you mishit it & come too much from the inside, it's a Power draw.

If your handicap is > 18:

- It's ALWAYS a hook - you don't mean to hit anything, therefore the ball flight/spin on the ball/angle of attack is irrelevant.

Between 10 & 18:

It's harder to guess here. Usually a wild right to left shot is defined as a hook.

why a hook and not a draw? surely the name of the ball flight is determined by the actual ball flight and NOT the handicap of the player???

if i play to draw the ball but hook it then it is a hook. if i plan to fade the ball but hit a draw then it is a draw. the planning of a shot and your handicap is irrelevant. ball flight is the relevant factor.

this is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]why a hook and not a draw? surely the name of the ball flight is determined by the actual ball flight and NOT the handicap of the player???

if i play to draw the ball but hook it then it is a hook. if i plan to fade the ball but hit a draw then it is a draw. the planning of a shot and your handicap is irrelevant. ball flight is the relevant factor.

this is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Apparently not. Only the intent (i.e. how good you are) matters.

[QUOTE=garcia is god]Apparently not. Only the intent (i.e. how good you are) matters.[/QUOTE]

so if tiger intend to draw it put push-slices it 3 fairways right then it's a draw? i think not!

[QUOTE=theidioticbizarre]so if tiger intend to draw it put push-slices it 3 fairways right then it's a draw? i think not![/QUOTE]

I'd love to argue with you, but it's been proven without doubt in this thread that the sole factor driving a shot's classification is intent.

[QUOTE=garcia is god]I'd love to argue with you, but it's been proven without doubt in this thread that the sole factor driving a shot's classification is intent.[/QUOTE]

well idiots on this site know jack.

end.

IF tiger intends to hit a draw and actually hits a push slice three fairways over it is obviously a power fade...he just changed hit intention at the top...duhhhh

INTENT DOES NOT DICTATE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A POWER FADE OR A SLICE.......Personally if a ball moves left to right more than 10 yards it is a SLICE (no intent necessary) if it moves left to right less than 10 yards and you swung less than 85% it is a FADE (no intent necessary) if it moves left to right less than 10 yards and you swung more than 85% it is a POWER FADE (no intent necessary) vice versa for DRAW, POWER DRAW, AND HOOK (SNAP HOOK IS A DIFFERENT ANIMAL ALL TOGETHER, no intent necessary).....all of this is only TRUE FOR RIGHT HANDED GOLFERS...for left replace all right to left flights with left to right....

Any more questions.....NO INTENT NECESSARY.....

NEXT............


seriously Garcia I don't think you could have spelled it out any clearer...maybe with bigger crayons you would have been more effective......hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Some say intent has nothing to do with it,others say it has.Means nothing.In fact,the term power fade means nothing.Absolutley nothing.

Since this thread has entered the realm of the surreal, perhaps a metaphor will clarify what I'm talking about...

A fart is a fart, regardles of whether you intended to fart or not. But, someone who can fart the National Anthem is impressive, while someone who simply farts is just disgusting.

Power fade - impressive!
Slice - disgusting and to be avoided in public. Save it for when you are alone on the range!

LMAO!!!

for the most part i would agree....except i have seen tiger hit intentional slices that landed on greens....so is that disgusting and not at all impressive.....


...i do this because i am bored, i know it's obvious but i just wanted to say it.

This how many angels dance on the head of a pin debate is easily solved. If it lands in the fairway, it's a fade, if it lands in the rough (or worse) it's a slice.

and if it lands a long way down the fairway its a power fade?

so i can hit a ball that moves 60 yards left to right, but if it lands in the fairway its a fade....and if i hit a ball that moves 1 yard left to right, but it lands in the rough its a slice......hmmmmmm

not sure if i agree with that....at all.... but you are entitled to your opinion even if it is wrong.....:thumbsup: