-
you know dorkman sometimes i really love reading your work... some of these suckers dont catch all of the upper level sarcasm you weave in some of your posts.
but i always find myself reading them a few times over and getting a really good chuckle out of them.
keep up the good work
Omen, yeah dork you've made it
-
[QUOTE=Omen2]you know dorkman sometimes i really love reading your work... some of these suckers dont catch all of the upper level sarcasm you weave in some of your posts.
but i always find myself reading them a few times over and getting a really good chuckle out of them.
keep up the good work
Omen, yeah dork you've made it[/QUOTE]
Actually Omen, although Dorkie is capable of being very sharp, he engages in very low level sarcasm most of the time so the drones on this forum can get it. I guess levels of sarcasm are subjective, relative to who's reading.
-
[QUOTE=SoonerBS]Do you really want to do this? Alright . . . .
-- First of all, Christianity is a religion of the spirit. Man has been given a spirit from his creator (God) and it is individual to all of us. While the physical body we have is only temporary and will eventually die and go back to dust (Ecclesistes 3:19-20), the spirit will go on through eternity (the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 can be referenced for this fact).
-- JWs sometime reference Ecclesiastes 9:10 as proof that the "human soul ceases to exist at death." The text reads -- Eccl 9:10, "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." (NKJV) Solomon gives reference several times in the Book of Ecclesiastes to the "grave" as an ending spot for human activity. It IS an ending spot for all natural activity with our earthly bodies and this is what Solomon was saying as he also says in chapter 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the beast, which goes down to the earth?" (NKJV) How could Solomon be talking about all souls ending at death and going to the grave whenever he acknowledges here in this verse that the souls of men go upwards? Solomon, when referencing the grave, was simply talking about all earthly activities ending at death, but he understood that the soul goes on living.
-- If JWs believe that whenever we die we're like Rover -- dead all over -- then why do they try to preach to us about 140,000 souls that are going to live with God in heaven and millions more that will live on through eternity with Christ here on the Earth (which is also puzzling considering the apostle Peter said that when Christ returned the earth and everything we know will be burned up because we will no longer have use for a physical world having spiritual bodies (2 Peter 3))? Doesn't this sound contradictory to you? I have asked several JWs and get a theological runaround that doesn't explain their doctrine as being true a bit.
-- If there is no HELL or ETERNAL PUNISHMENT like JWs like to teach, then why did Christ teach about it and tell us it exists? Does that make him a liar? (Matthew 5:22-30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:5; Matthew 25:31-46; etc.)
-- IF the soul is extinguished upon death, why did Christ preach an illustration involving two souls in a "heaven/hell" scenario? Luke 16:19-31 tells about a Rich Man and a beggar named, Lazarus. Lazarus used to sit at the gate of the Rich Man and beg. Whenever he died, his soul IMMEDIATELY went to a place of comfort. Whenever the Rich Man died, his soul IMMEDIATELY went to a place of punishment. Christ never said "this is a parable, or this is a story, or this is a fable." He taught it as a true happening, and as the Son of God, he would have had access to knowing this true happening in the spiritual world. JWs will not teach you this scripture because it refutes what they want to accept and teach about heaven and hell and the spirit of man.
Now, for those who want to argue these points and tell me what you think, know that I am not going to be GR's ordained theologian. I've got better things to do. Christians claim the Bible as the authoritative word of God, therefore it is only the Bible that I accept as the standard bearer of all religions. You guys can read it if you need future answers or want to make religious claims. I deal with enough of these Bible thumping yahoos around here . . . . .
Spank, I don't know your cousin, but it looks like I OWN his arse now along with your sorry arse. Give me a real challenge next time.[/QUOTE]
Saw the religion crap going on in the main forum, and forgot about this post...
Shucks, my cousin wrote back a long time ago and I forgot about it.
I just took some and pasted some of what he said from his response, and I am probably going to screw it up. I am going against his request to keep this private. What he doesn’t know won’t hurt him. ;)
[B]Sooner wrote[/B] – “First of all, Christianity is a religion of the spirit. Man has been given a spirit from his creator (God) and it is individual to all of us. While the physical body we have is only temporary and will eventually die and go back to dust (Ecclesistes 3:19-20), the spirit will go on through eternity (the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 can be referenced for this fact).”
[B]Cousin said:[/B] “spank,” (name changed)
You really should not debate religion on the internet. I recommend you have a Bible study in person, instead. There is a lot of confusion out there, and the internet is not an appropriate venue sometimes in my opinion.
But, to answer your questions, Man has been given a soul, and the spirit is our life force from God. When we die, we become non existent, yet our spirit, life force, returns to God. We can better appreciate this conclusion by first noting from the Bible some other details about “spirit.”
The Hebrew word that is often translated “spirit” is ru′ahh. It can convey a number of distinct meanings, depending on how it is used and on the context.
For example, in some cases ru′ahh denotes an invisible movement of air and so can be rendered “wind.” (Ex. 10:13; Zech. 2:6)
Also, the word can be used for a “spirit” person, an invisible being such as an angel, or even for God. (1 Ki. 22:21, 22)
And ru′ahh can designate God’s invisible active force (holy spirit), as at Psalm 104:30, which mentions the “spirit,” or active force, that God employs in creating.
However, Psalm 104:29 illustrates another meaning of ru′ahh—life force. This is the point I wish for you to understand.
We read: “If you [God] take away their spirit, they expire, and back to their dust they go.”
As this and many other texts show, both humans and animals have an impersonal life force, or spirit, that is present in every living body cell. The Bible shows that without this vitalizing spirit a human or an animal is dead.—Eccl. 3:19; 9:10; Ps. 146:4.
We are souls, and we have the breath of life, spirit from God. Think of a fan that runs on electricity. The electricity is not the fan, but the fan is ‘alive’ when the electricity is on. Pull the plug, and the fan ‘ceases’ to exist, so to speak.
[B]Sooner wrote[/B]—“JWs sometime reference Ecclesiastes 9:10 as proof that the "human soul ceases to exist at death." The text reads -- Eccl 9:10, "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." (NKJV) Solomon gives reference several times in the Book of Ecclesiastes to the "grave" as an ending spot for human activity. It IS an ending spot for all natural activity with our earthly bodies and this is what Solomon was saying as he also says in chapter 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the beast, which goes down to the earth?" (NKJV) How could Solomon be talking about all souls ending at death and going to the grave whenever he acknowledges here in this verse that the souls of men go upwards? Solomon, when referencing the grave, was simply talking about all earthly activities ending at death, but he understood that the soul goes on living.
[B]Cousin wrote:[/B] Yes, it is true we cease to exist when we die. The Bible plainly teaches this. Yes, many are confused with regard to Ecclesiastes 3:21.
There are many many Bible verses that state the soul does die.
This verse mentions the spirit of the beast also, does this mean the beast has a spirit that lives forever too? Of course not. The spirit is the life force in all living things.
Showing that thus man’s spirit (life force) is just like that of the lower animals, the inspired wise man said these words in Ecclesiastes 3:21.
We see, therefore, spank (name changed), that the spirit or invisible, activating life force that makes animals live is the same as that which makes mankind live.
Isn’t it a wonderful thing, spank (name changed), to live forever on a paradise earth, as God originally purposed, as taught in the Bible?
[B]Sooner wrote [/B]-- If JWs believe that whenever we die we're like Rover -- dead all over -- then why do they try to preach to us about 140,000 souls that are going to live with God in heaven and millions more that will live on through eternity with Christ here on the Earth (which is also puzzling considering the apostle Peter said that when Christ returned the earth and everything we know will be burned up because we will no longer have use for a physical world having spiritual bodies (2 Peter 3))? Doesn't this sound contradictory to you? I have asked several JWs and get a theological runaround that doesn't explain their doctrine as being true a bit.
[B]Cousin wrote:[/B] spank (name changed), we learn at Ecclesiastes 1:4 that the earth remains forever. Also, there are no contradictions in the Bible. Isaiah 45:18 teaches us that the earth was created to be inhabited. Therefore humans will always be on the earth.
Think about it spank (name changed), if you owned a home and the renters were ruining your home and abusing it would you burn the home down or kick out the tenants? Jehovah will not burn down earth (his house he owns) because of a few bad tenants. Would you do this spank (name changed)? Do you see how little sense this makes?
With regard to 2 Peter 3:10: The Bible sometimes likens the ruling powers on earth to the heavens or to heavenly bodies. For example the oppressive Babylonian rulers were described as being starlike because they elevated themselves above those around them. (Isaiah 14:12-14) As foretold, the figurative Babylonian “heavens,” or ruling class, and “earth,” the supporters of that rulership, came to an end in 539 B.C.E. (Isaiah 51:6)
This allowed repentant Jews to return to Jerusalem, where a “new heavens,” a new ruling body, ruled over “a new earth,” a righteous society of people. You can see this here in Isaiah 65:17.
The Bible’s words about heaven and earth ‘passing away’ refer to the end of today’s corrupt human governments and their ungodly supporters. (2 Peter 3:7)
That will open the way for God’s new heavenly government to bless a righteous new human society, as mentioned a few verses later: “there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to [God’s] promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”—2 Peter 3:13. Remember, keep everything in context and you will find no confusion spank (name changed).
Thus, you can have faith in God’s promise that our earthly home will last forever. Moreover the Bible shows what you must do to share in that wonderful time when the earth will be transformed into a global paradise. Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3)
I hope you wish to learn more spank (name changed).
[B]Sooner wrote [/B]-- If there is no HELL or ETERNAL PUNISHMENT like JWs like to teach, then why did Christ teach about it and tell us it exists? Does that make him a liar? (Matthew 5:22-30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:5; Matthew 25:31-46; etc.)
[B]Cousin wrote:[/B] Hell is the grave where all of us go when we die; a place of nonexistence. And yes there is eternal punishment which is non existence forever.
Think about it spank (name changed) would you put your little boy’s hand over a stove and burn it if he did something bad? Why would a God of justice burn someone for eternity for 3 or 5 decades of life on earth in an imperfect body? Is that justice to you?
There is much confusion with the original words, Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, all translated as “hell” in Bibles.
Jesus did not teach that bad people burn in hell forever; how disrespectful to believe such a thing and I can teach more on this another time. NOT a Bible teaching.
I will deal with one of the scriptures you mentioned above.
Spank (name changed),
Note that “the eternal fire” mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41 was prepared “for the devil and his angels.” Do you think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures? Or was Jesus using the term “fire” symbolically? Certainly “the sheep” and “the goats” mentioned in the same discourse are not literal; they are word pictures that represent two types of people. (Matthew 25:32, 33) The eternal fire that Jesus spoke of completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.
Jesus never taught that humans have an immortal soul. However, he often did teach about the resurrection of the dead. (Luke 14:13, 14; John 5:25-29; 11:25) Why would Jesus say that the dead would be resurrected if he believed that their souls had not died?
Jesus did not teach that God would maliciously torture the wicked forever.
Rather, Jesus said: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” Why would Jesus imply that those who did not believe in him would die? If he really meant that they would live forever, suffering misery in a fiery hell, would he not have said so?
The doctrine that hell is a place of torment is not based on the Bible. Rather, it is a pagan belief masquerading as a Christian teaching.
God does not torture people eternally in hell. Think about it spank (name changed)
[B]Sooner said[/B] -- IF the soul is extinguished upon death, why did Christ preach an illustration involving two souls in a "heaven/hell" scenario? Luke 16:19-31 tells about a Rich Man and a beggar named, Lazarus. Lazarus used to sit at the gate of the Rich Man and beg. Whenever he died, his soul IMMEDIATELY went to a place of comfort. Whenever the Rich Man died, his soul IMMEDIATELY went to a place of punishment. Christ never said "this is a parable, or this is a story, or this is a fable." He taught it as a true happening, and as the Son of God, he would have had access to knowing this true happening in the spiritual world. JWs will not teach you this scripture because it refutes what they want to accept and teach about heaven and hell and the spirit of man.
[B]Cousin wrote[/B]: It is ridiculous to take this illustration literally.
It is an illustration. For example, The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
[B]Sooner wrote:[/B] Spank, I don't know your cousin, but it looks like I OWN his arse now along with your sorry arse. Give me a real challenge next time.
[B]Cousin wrote: [/B] do not email or put any of this on the internet, please. This is confidential for your spiritual benefit. In the future perhaps we can stick to just one topic instead of jumping all around the place as this is not good for learning the Bible.
--------------
Anyways, take it for it is worth, but damn he responded. I was surprised.
-
[QUOTE=spanqdoggie]Saw the religion crap going on in the main forum, and forgot about this post...
Shucks, my cousin wrote back a long time ago and I forgot about it.
I just took some and pasted some of what he said from his response, and I am probably going to screw it up. I am going against his request to keep this private. What he doesn’t know won’t hurt him. ;)
[B]Sooner wrote[/B] – “First of all, Christianity is a religion of the spirit. Man has been given a spirit from his creator (God) and it is individual to all of us. While the physical body we have is only temporary and will eventually die and go back to dust (Ecclesistes 3:19-20), the spirit will go on through eternity (the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 can be referenced for this fact).”
[B]Cousin said:[/B] “spank,” (name changed)
You really should not debate religion on the internet. I recommend you have a Bible study in person, instead. There is a lot of confusion out there, and the internet is not an appropriate venue sometimes in my opinion.
But, to answer your questions, Man has been given a soul, and the spirit is our life force from God. When we die, we become non existent, yet our spirit, life force, returns to God. We can better appreciate this conclusion by first noting from the Bible some other details about “spirit.”
The Hebrew word that is often translated “spirit” is ru′ahh. It can convey a number of distinct meanings, depending on how it is used and on the context.
For example, in some cases ru′ahh denotes an invisible movement of air and so can be rendered “wind.” (Ex. 10:13; Zech. 2:6)
Also, the word can be used for a “spirit” person, an invisible being such as an angel, or even for God. (1 Ki. 22:21, 22)
And ru′ahh can designate God’s invisible active force (holy spirit), as at Psalm 104:30, which mentions the “spirit,” or active force, that God employs in creating.
However, Psalm 104:29 illustrates another meaning of ru′ahh—life force. This is the point I wish for you to understand.
We read: “If you [God] take away their spirit, they expire, and back to their dust they go.”
As this and many other texts show, both humans and animals have an impersonal life force, or spirit, that is present in every living body cell. The Bible shows that without this vitalizing spirit a human or an animal is dead.—Eccl. 3:19; 9:10; Ps. 146:4.
We are souls, and we have the breath of life, spirit from God. Think of a fan that runs on electricity. The electricity is not the fan, but the fan is ‘alive’ when the electricity is on. Pull the plug, and the fan ‘ceases’ to exist, so to speak.
[COLOR="Red"]Jehovah's Witnesses are always trying to explain God's spiritual message by using their own physical logic and understanding. This cannot always be done. 1 Corinthians 2:6-14 says, "[I]However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 [B]But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned[/I][/B]." JWs are also notorious for spending too much time in the Old Testament -- a part of the Bible that Christians recognize is no longer pertinent to them. If he would spend more time studying 1 Corinthians 15, he would find that the entire chapter talks about the fact that we have a natural body in this life, but whenever we pass away we are given an immortal body. There is no denying this and there is no way to interpret it any other way without doing hermeneutic gymnastics -- which JWs are commonly known to do. You can read 1 Corinthians 15 for yourself it is pretty self explanatory. [/COLOR]
[B]Sooner wrote[/B]—“JWs sometime reference Ecclesiastes 9:10 as proof that the "human soul ceases to exist at death." The text reads -- Eccl 9:10, "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." (NKJV) Solomon gives reference several times in the Book of Ecclesiastes to the "grave" as an ending spot for human activity. It IS an ending spot for all natural activity with our earthly bodies and this is what Solomon was saying as he also says in chapter 3:21, "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the beast, which goes down to the earth?" (NKJV) How could Solomon be talking about all souls ending at death and going to the grave whenever he acknowledges here in this verse that the souls of men go upwards? Solomon, when referencing the grave, was simply talking about all earthly activities ending at death, but he understood that the soul goes on living.
[B]Cousin wrote:[/B] Yes, it is true we cease to exist when we die. The Bible plainly teaches this. Yes, many are confused with regard to Ecclesiastes 3:21.
There are many many Bible verses that state the soul does die.
This verse mentions the spirit of the beast also, does this mean the beast has a spirit that lives forever too? Of course not. The spirit is the life force in all living things.
Showing that thus man’s spirit (life force) is just like that of the lower animals, the inspired wise man said these words in Ecclesiastes 3:21.
We see, therefore, spank (name changed), that the spirit or invisible, activating life force that makes animals live is the same as that which makes mankind live.
Isn’t it a wonderful thing, spank (name changed), to live forever on a paradise earth, as God originally purposed, as taught in the Bible?
[COLOR="Red"]Your cousin just completed what the governor in the play "A Little Whore House in Texas" liked to sing about doing, "Oooh, I like to dance a little sidestep . . . " Solomon stated that there is a definite DIFFERENCE between the souls of humans and the souls of animals, I quote again: 3:21, "[I]Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the beast, which goes down to the earth?[/I]" Does this sound like the writer was saying that the souls are the same? There is no sense in trying to do any mental gymnastics here in figuring it out because the Bible was supposedly written for all mankind to understand, Spank, not just the JWs as they like for everyone to believe. This verse literally says the spirit of animals go down, but the spirit of man goes up. Your cousin didn't do a very good job of defending his theology here.[/COLOR]
[B]Sooner wrote [/B]-- If JWs believe that whenever we die we're like Rover -- dead all over -- then why do they try to preach to us about 140,000 souls that are going to live with God in heaven and millions more that will live on through eternity with Christ here on the Earth (which is also puzzling considering the apostle Peter said that when Christ returned the earth and everything we know will be burned up because we will no longer have use for a physical world having spiritual bodies (2 Peter 3))? Doesn't this sound contradictory to you? I have asked several JWs and get a theological runaround that doesn't explain their doctrine as being true a bit.
[B]Cousin wrote:[/B] spank (name changed), we learn at Ecclesiastes 1:4 that the earth remains forever. Also, there are no contradictions in the Bible. Isaiah 45:18 teaches us that the earth was created to be inhabited. Therefore humans will always be on the earth.
Think about it spank (name changed), if you owned a home and the renters were ruining your home and abusing it would you burn the home down or kick out the tenants? Jehovah will not burn down earth (his house he owns) because of a few bad tenants. Would you do this spank (name changed)? Do you see how little sense this makes?
With regard to 2 Peter 3:10: The Bible sometimes likens the ruling powers on earth to the heavens or to heavenly bodies. For example the oppressive Babylonian rulers were described as being starlike because they elevated themselves above those around them. (Isaiah 14:12-14) As foretold, the figurative Babylonian “heavens,” or ruling class, and “earth,” the supporters of that rulership, came to an end in 539 B.C.E. (Isaiah 51:6)
This allowed repentant Jews to return to Jerusalem, where a “new heavens,” a new ruling body, ruled over “a new earth,” a righteous society of people. You can see this here in Isaiah 65:17.
The Bible’s words about heaven and earth ‘passing away’ refer to the end of today’s corrupt human governments and their ungodly supporters. (2 Peter 3:7)
That will open the way for God’s new heavenly government to bless a righteous new human society, as mentioned a few verses later: “there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to [God’s] promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”—2 Peter 3:13. Remember, keep everything in context and you will find no confusion spank (name changed).
Thus, you can have faith in God’s promise that our earthly home will last forever. Moreover the Bible shows what you must do to share in that wonderful time when the earth will be transformed into a global paradise. Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3)
I hope you wish to learn more spank (name changed).
[COLOR="Red"]Once again, your cousin uses the use of hermeneutic gymnastics and physical logic to try and explain away the spiritual meanings of the things that does not agree with his chosen religious beliefs. In his defense, many of the Christian groups that exist within our nation today do the very same thing. You read Ecclesiastes chapter 1 sometime yourself and answer this question: Is the writer trying to convince the reader that the earth will go on forever, or is his main theme about the fact that the earth itself does not change, but the actions of mankind continue to take their course on the earth? Solomon's whole theme of Ecclesiastes is to do nothing more than talk about how useless it is to get caught up in the "goings on" of life and leave God out of our lives. He is not, as the JWs like to lead others to believe, focusing on the earth itself. Spank, there is a peculiar thing that happens in the Bible as it talks about Christ's second return to the earth -- it never says or shows Christ stepping on the earth. Go ahead, search it yourself. It talks about him meeting his saints and righteous in the air and clouds of the sky, but never on earth. You know why? Because 2 Peter 3 tells us that there is not going to be an earth left for him to stand on. Jesus said in John 18:36, [I]"Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."[/I] Christ never came to the earth to to build a physical kingdom, Spank, not then, not now, and not whenever he returns in his second coming. The stories the JWs like to tell about him establishing a physical kingdom here on this earth whenever he comes again is nothing but a fairy tale. They largely have to misinterpret the entire book of Revelation to substantiate their claims, but even then their doctrines tend to contradict with other key scriptures in the New Testament.
[/COLOR]
[B]Sooner wrote [/B]-- If there is no HELL or ETERNAL PUNISHMENT like JWs like to teach, then why did Christ teach about it and tell us it exists? Does that make him a liar? (Matthew 5:22-30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:5; Matthew 25:31-46; etc.)
[B]Cousin wrote:[/B] Hell is the grave where all of us go when we die; a place of nonexistence. And yes there is eternal punishment which is non existence forever.
Think about it spank (name changed) would you put your little boy’s hand over a stove and burn it if he did something bad? Why would a God of justice burn someone for eternity for 3 or 5 decades of life on earth in an imperfect body? Is that justice to you?
There is much confusion with the original words, Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, all translated as “hell” in Bibles.
Jesus did not teach that bad people burn in hell forever; how disrespectful to believe such a thing and I can teach more on this another time. NOT a Bible teaching.
I will deal with one of the scriptures you mentioned above.
Spank (name changed),
Note that “the eternal fire” mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41 was prepared “for the devil and his angels.” Do you think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures? Or was Jesus using the term “fire” symbolically? Certainly “the sheep” and “the goats” mentioned in the same discourse are not literal; they are word pictures that represent two types of people. (Matthew 25:32, 33) The eternal fire that Jesus spoke of completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.
Jesus never taught that humans have an immortal soul. However, he often did teach about the resurrection of the dead. (Luke 14:13, 14; John 5:25-29; 11:25) Why would Jesus say that the dead would be resurrected if he believed that their souls had not died?
Jesus did not teach that God would maliciously torture the wicked forever.
Rather, Jesus said: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” Why would Jesus imply that those who did not believe in him would die? If he really meant that they would live forever, suffering misery in a fiery hell, would he not have said so?
The doctrine that hell is a place of torment is not based on the Bible. Rather, it is a pagan belief masquerading as a Christian teaching.
God does not torture people eternally in hell. Think about it spank (name changed)
[COLOR="Red"]So, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was not smart enough to teach something to the people that was true and literal? Did he really have to revert to teaching his followers "pagan beliefs" on hell? Spank, do you understand that the JWs tend to think of Christ as a demi-God and place "Jehovah God" above all importance and creation? The Bible doesn't necessarily teach this (John 1) but the JWs do. So, they do not have any qualms about stating that "Christ didn't always mean what he taught." If this is so, doesn't it make Christ a liar?
I know what the words Hades, grave, Gehenna and Hell mean. I've studied Greek and Hebrew. It's your cousin that needs to do some further study on those words and what Jesus taught. But, that is not likely because he as already accepted the JW brainwashing.
Hey, Spank, ask your cousin sometime where the name "Jehovah" is found in all the Bible translations other than the JW translation. Tell him you searched for it, but that you couldn't find it (because you will not if you do so). Spank, can you really trust an organization of so called "Christian Believers" that call themselves after a name of a God not found in the Bible? Again, search for it yourself. And, don't let them tell you it is a "form of a Hebrew word found in the Old Testament" because Hebrew scholars cannot substantiate that claim either.[/COLOR]
[B]Sooner said[/B] -- IF the soul is extinguished upon death, why did Christ preach an illustration involving two souls in a "heaven/hell" scenario? Luke 16:19-31 tells about a Rich Man and a beggar named, Lazarus. Lazarus used to sit at the gate of the Rich Man and beg. Whenever he died, his soul IMMEDIATELY went to a place of comfort. Whenever the Rich Man died, his soul IMMEDIATELY went to a place of punishment. Christ never said "this is a parable, or this is a story, or this is a fable." He taught it as a true happening, and as the Son of God, he would have had access to knowing this true happening in the spiritual world. JWs will not teach you this scripture because it refutes what they want to accept and teach about heaven and hell and the spirit of man.
[B]Cousin wrote[/B]: It is ridiculous to take this illustration literally.
It is an illustration. For example, The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
[COLOR="Red"]Christ never called it an "illustration, parable, fable" or any other term signifying it as anything other than a literal event that just so happens to give us a glimpse into the spiritual "goings on" of the spirit world. Yes, he used the event to teach a practical lesson on spirituality to his audience, but that is no reason we have to believe that it was a fictional story. JWs just "assume" it is and you know what they say about people that "assume."[/COLOR]
[B]Sooner wrote:[/B] Spank, I don't know your cousin, but it looks like I OWN his arse now along with your sorry arse. Give me a real challenge next time.
[B]Cousin wrote: [/B] do not email or put any of this on the internet, please. This is confidential for your spiritual benefit. In the future perhaps we can stick to just one topic instead of jumping all around the place as this is not good for learning the Bible.
[COLOR="Red"]Once again, your cousin has been owned. He has the responsibility to carry on the stance of the JW drivel, I have no responsibility at all other than to try and divide the truth from fiction of all the Christian groups and their beliefs. I also study the world religions as well. It has been a very entertaining hobby of mind ever since I took studies on religion as elective courses in college (which just happened to be a "Christian" college). In my counseling, I deal a lot with people who come from different religious backgrounds and their faith is a big part of the character make-up. So, I have to continue to study and keep up with the different beliefs in order to have the overall knowledge to deal with their issues.[/COLOR]
--------------
Anyways, take it for it is worth, but damn he responded. I was surprised.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting this, Spank, . . . . . or, should I say, "My son . . . " [img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/eng/religion2.gif[/img]
-
[QUOTE=SoonerBS]Thanks for posting this, Spank, . . . . . or, should I say, "My son . . . " [img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/eng/religion2.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
Ha ha! I love how worked up you are getting...
I gotta figure out how to ask some questions without letting him on too much, with what you said...
Tee hee, how funny. ;)
Maybe in a month or so I will email with some questions derived from your post... He said he was gonna mail me some stuff, so we will see what I get.
In college, we were told to debate something that we were opposed to, as if we were in favor of it... This is the only thing that seems to get you so worked up, so, when the inclination hits me, we can continue this. ;)
|
