I found it! This is the secret to the golf swing

[QUOTE=noshuz]Yer wasting your time on him Alan. He's right and everybodys wrong.....
[/QUOTE]

Nah...

Refuting Larry's ******** with his own sources is fun!

Why is it that for most of us on GR a 100 post thread is a lifetime achievement, but for Larry it's like shelling peas?

Peas come from shells?

[quote=Not a hacker]Why is it that [B]for most of us on GR a 100 post thread is a lifetime achievement[/B], but for Larry it's like shelling peas?[/quote]

Well, considering the Official Noshuz vs. Famousdavis thread is well over that even before we have played, we have nothing to look forward to life. Yep FD, I think it's pretty much downhill from here big guy......:D

[QUOTE=noshuz]Well, considering the Official Noshuz vs. Famousdavis thread is well over that even before we have played, we have nothing to look forward to life. Yep FD, I think it's pretty much downhill from here big guy......:D[/QUOTE]

Stop it. I'm still on a natural high from exceeding 100 posts. Now I know why Larry keeps posting about his swing drills. This is more thrilling than when Hustler changed their layout.

As I continue lessons I realize that my original and continuing failing was to stay connected, to swing in sync from setup through impact. I had no chance--because when my arms disconnected from my chest--my torso turn did not power my downswing-- or if it did, the results were erratic. No telling where my hands would be when my chest was facing the ball again.

But I didn't realize I was losing connection from the first inch of takeaway. And THAT is the difference between those elite few who learned as kids-- or somehow learned later-- and the other 99% of us. They swing in sync and we don't.

When we disconnect and let our arms finish our backswing, we do what I did--which is to allow our arms to finish our backswing and put the club up over the swing plane. The brain doesn't recognize that position--and we downswing shoulders first, OTT. Again and again. Pros show us what we should do-- but we can't stop doing that. My brother has been doing that 40 years! He invents hand manipulations to get the ball to stay in the fairway (sometimes) but he careens from 75 to 95--and is too erratic to play in the top flight of even a modest golf club.

The answer all along was simply to setup in sync, backswing in sync, reach a top position that triggers a downswing in the correct sequence, and play near scratch golf --as most do who learned as kids. Duh

It is and always has been about staying connected.

Larry

[QUOTE=Larryrsf]As I continue lessons I realize that my original and continuing failing was to stay connected, to swing in sync from setup through impact. I had no chance--because when my arms disconnected from my chest--my torso turn did not power my downswing-- or if it did, the results were erratic. No telling where my hands would be when my chest was facing the ball again.[/quote]

So, in other words, when you said, "I found it", you were wrong...

...again.

[quote]But I didn't realize I was losing connection from the first inch of takeaway. And THAT is the difference between those elite few who learned as kids-- or somehow learned later-- and the other 99% of us. They swing in sync and we don't.[/quote]

Sorry, Larry, but I'm growing bored with your made up statistics.

[quote]When we disconnect and let our arms finish our backswing, we do what I did--which is to allow our arms to finish our backswing and put the club up over the swing plane. The brain doesn't recognize that position--and we downswing shoulders first, OTT. Again and again. Pros show us what we should do-- but we can't stop doing that. My brother has been doing that 40 years! He invents hand manipulations to get the ball to stay in the fairway (sometimes) but he careens from 75 to 95--and is too erratic to play in the top flight of even a modest golf club. [/quote]

Yet somehow, I'd bet on him to beat you straight up...

[quote]The answer all along was simply to setup in sync, backswing in sync, reach a top position that triggers a downswing in the correct sequence, and play near scratch golf --as most do who learned as kids. Duh

It is and always has been about staying connected.[/QUOTE]

Or, it will be until the next secret...

[QUOTE=Larryrsf]As I continue lessons I realize that my original and continuing failing was to stay connected, to swing in sync from setup through impact. I had no chance--because when my arms disconnected from my chest--my torso turn did not power my downswing-- or if it did, the results were erratic. No telling where my hands would be when my chest was facing the ball again.

But I didn't realize I was losing connection from the first inch of takeaway. And THAT is the difference between those elite few who learned as kids-- or somehow learned later-- and the other 99% of us. They swing in sync and we don't.

When we disconnect and let our arms finish our backswing, we do what I did--which is to allow our arms to finish our backswing and put the club up over the swing plane. The brain doesn't recognize that position--and we downswing shoulders first, OTT. Again and again. Pros show us what we should do-- but we can't stop doing that. My brother has been doing that 40 years! He invents hand manipulations to get the ball to stay in the fairway (sometimes) but he careens from 75 to 95--and is too erratic to play in the top flight of even a modest golf club.

The answer all along was simply to setup in sync, backswing in sync, reach a top position that triggers a downswing in the correct sequence, and play near scratch golf --as most do who learned as kids. Duh

It is and always has been about staying connected.

Larry[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this very informative post. I have just had my third lesson, and I am trying to learn how to swing relaxed, like I do in a baseball swing or handball swing; for some reason I get all tense when I swing.

I will learn from this great post.

Thanks Larry! It gives much food for thought.

[quote=spanqdoggie]Thank you for this very informative post. I have just had my third lesson, and I am trying to learn how to swing relaxed, like I do in a baseball swing or handball swing; for some reason I get all tense when I swing.

I will learn from this great post.

Thanks Larry! It gives much food for thought.[/quote]

Maybe Laree can give ya a nice long, deep neck rub there spank. And I absolutely don't mean that with any homosexual overtones what so ever! Not that there's anything wrong with that.......:cool:

[QUOTE=Larryrsf]
The answer all along was simply to setup in sync, backswing in sync, reach a top position that triggers a downswing in the correct sequence, and play near scratch golf --as most do who learned as kids. Duh

[B][I]It is and always has been about staying connected.[/I][/B]

Larry[/QUOTE]

What about flattening the shaft????

Now see the majority of that was pretty sound advice. The statistics I could live without, but the gist of the post was spot on. If you lose connection, you bring in unnecessary manipulations in order to keep things on track that are probably not going to hold up under pressure.

[QUOTE=Mward2002]Now see the majority of that was pretty sound advice. The statistics I could live without, but the gist of the post was spot on. If you lose connection, you bring in unnecessary manipulations in order to keep things on track that are probably not going to hold up under pressure.[/QUOTE]
Larry is obviously immune to pressure. Pressure gets to most people because they have a fear of failing or embarrassment.

[QUOTE=Mward2002]Now see the majority of that was pretty sound advice. The statistics I could live without, but the gist of the post was spot on. If you lose connection, you bring in unnecessary manipulations in order to keep things on track that are probably not going to hold up under pressure.[/QUOTE].

The bottom line is that you can't think of hand and arm position while you're playing golf. If you do, you won't play well. People take countless lessons and spend hours at the range but when they get to a hole with water on the left and OB to the right they screw it up every time. It doesn't matter how much you practice if you don't know how to strategically play a course. Most people would score much better if they had the right thought process prior to hitting every shot. Most people have some kind of negative thought right before they swing.

For example, at the course I play the first hole has OB to the left. Here is the thought process of most amateurs: They aim down the middle of the fairway. As they address the ball the OB comes into mind. They start moving their feet and the clubface so that they are aimed to the right side of the fairway because they fear hitting it OB. Now they feel awkward. They either duck hook it OB or push it way right into the deep rough.

Here is my thought process: I aim straight down the fairway. I have played golf for over 20 years and I'm confident in my ability. I am going to take an aggressive swing and really come into the ball hard. My grip, stance and grip pressure are all correct and I'm ready to swing. If I do hit it OB, that's OK because i did everything I could to aim properly and try to hit a good shot. The only way I'd get mad at myself is if I did change my stance or swing at the last moment in fear of hitting it OB.

When you're making any type of swing change that's drastic, you should practice it till you don't have to think about it when you're on the course. In the case of losing connection it takes a lot of repetition before it sinks in.

I agree though, if you think about don't miss here etc. it's almost a sure thing you're gonna hit it way offline. It sucks even more when you lose concentration and think about it right as you start your downswing. It just pops in your head and you're SOL.

OMG - my first post here and it's in a LarryRSF thread!

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]To me, flattening the shaft means getting stuck. It should happen automatically in a two plane swing. In a one plane swing, barely at all. Don't think flatten the shaft, think delay forward shoulder rotation.[/QUOTE]

Every good player does it-- to avoid OTT if they don't. See page 139 of SLAP.

BTW, there is no mention of two plane swings in SLAP, which is the consolidation of 100 top professional golf swings. I think there is either OTT or a move at the top that flattens the shaft-- as the golfer shifts his weight to his front leg and increases his knee bend slightly-- a "squat" move. Most amateurs do the opposite, actually stand up slightly through impact.

Larry

[QUOTE=Larryrsf]Every good player does it-- to avoid OTT if they don't. See page 139 of SLAP. [/quote]

Until you're a good player, let's hear a lot less of you telling us what "every good player" does...

[quote]BTW, there is no mention of two plane swings in SLAP, which is the consolidation of 100 top professional golf swings. I think there is either OTT or a move at the top that flattens the shaft-- as the golfer shifts his weight to his front leg and increases his knee bend slightly-- a "squat" move. Most amateurs do the opposite, actually stand up slightly through impact.[/QUOTE]

So SLAP is this month's bible, is it?

And in very advanced swings, there is a squat move at the beginning of the swing, followed by a move laterally, followed by a move back upward at impact. That's because when one is creating circular motion powered from the centre, the centre moves 90 degrees ahead of the movement at the circumference.

If you squat, you have to stand back up up to and even through impact or else you'll dig the club into the ground behind the ball. You're changing your center of gravity and your low point of the swing. You have no choice but to adjust or you're hitting the ball heavy all day.

Flattening the shaft is also something you shouldn't consciously do either. How much is too much? How little is too little? Can you do it repeatedly? I'm guessing NO.

[QUOTE=Mward2002]If you squat, you have to stand back up up to and even through impact or else you'll dig the club into the ground behind the ball. You're changing your center of gravity and your low point of the swing. You have no choice but to adjust or you're hitting the ball heavy all day.[/quote]

To be fair (to golf, not to Larry), you can squat some and not dig the club into the ground. In fact, a little squat can help you aggressively rotate your torso, because the only way to avoid hitting the ground behind the ball is for your body to rotate farther through at impact than its address position. I know this, because I've played with this very action.

You can a little, but like anything in golf it can be overdone. Squat too much and you have trouble. I'm guilty of it when I try and step on it. It's easier to try and not do it than to try and time it, IMO

[QUOTE=Mward2002]You can a little, but like anything in golf it can be overdone. Squat too much and you have trouble. I'm guilty of it when I try and step on it. It's easier to try and not do it than to try and time it, IMO[/QUOTE]

To me, it doesn't seem that it's a matter of timing, but only one of amount.

Squat a little and you need to rotate your torso through. Squat more so that you then need to come up an little as you approach impact...

...now THAT takes timing.

[QUOTE=Mward2002]If you squat, you have to stand back up up to and even through impact or else you'll dig the club into the ground behind the ball. You're changing your center of gravity and your low point of the swing. You have no choice but to adjust or you're hitting the ball heavy all day.

Flattening the shaft is also something you shouldn't consciously do either. How much is too much? How little is too little? Can you do it repeatedly? I'm guessing NO.[/QUOTE]

Teaching pros teach the squat because people stand up-- and they teach the "drop it under" or flatten the shaft move to get people to start with hips instead of shoulders, OTT. Too much of anything is bad, of course, but first learn to do it at all! Because the failure to start with hips, to "turn, post, swing" is common to 99% of amateurs--according to TPI. All but 1% of amateurs swing at least slightly OTT--

If you don't start with hips--you WILL start with shoulders. Watch Hogan explain why this is "the most important thing" in the golf swing. Pretty strong stuff from the guy most pros think is the best who ever played our game: Hogan actually pulled the butt of the club into his hip so powerfully that he wore his pants through at that spot.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0[/url]

So teaching pros try to help amateurs learn to swing "down and under" instead of OTT. The standard method is to take it up to vertical with the clubhead slightly OUTSIDE the target line, and then flatten the shaft dramatically-- point the butt of the club at the ball and then swing. If you do it with your body tilt and not by rolling arms o wrists, you will need to step on your front leg--activating your front hip-- and bring your back elbow in tight. Then you are ready to hit the INSIDE of the ball and bring the clubhead along the target line from the inside. If the cluhhead is aligned at impact-- the ball goes straight or draws. Rehearse it in slow motion, then slowly increase speed. It works.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/larryrsf?feature=mhw4[/url]

Watch the clubhead move straight back from the ball on top-- as I post to my front leg before downswinging. I can do this much more smoothly on the range. It feels like I am making the clubhead describe a "figure 8" as I exaggerate taking it up outside (which forces a full shoulder turn) and then loop around to bring it down from the inside.

If you watched the recent pro tournament, the winner Villegas did this very noticeably from the back view. He hits it 300 yards-- and bringing it from the inside is the best way to generate great clubhead speed-- your turning torso whips the clubhead through.

Larry

over analytical JA's.......:confused:

[QUOTE=Larryrsf]Teaching pros teach the squat because people stand up-- and they teach the "drop it under" or flatten the shaft move to get people to start with hips instead of shoulders, OTT. Too much of anything is bad, of course, but first learn to do it at all! Because the failure to start with hips, to "turn, post, swing" is common to 99% of amateurs--according to TPI. All but 1% of amateurs swing at least slightly OTT-- [/quote]

[I]Your current pro[/I] might be teach [I]you[/I] to squat, but it is far from universally taught. Unlike your fantasy that whatever you're being taught is some gold PGA standard, there is much disagreement even among the very top pros about how to swing a golf club properly.

If squatting and "dropping it under" help you hit it better: great!

[quote]If you don't start with hips--you WILL start with shoulders. Watch Hogan explain why this is "the most important thing" in the golf swing. Pretty strong stuff from the guy most pros think is the best who ever played our game:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0[/url]

So teaching pros try to help amateurs learn to swing "down and under" instead of OTT. The standard method is to take it up to vertical with the clubhead slightly OUTSIDE the target line, and then flatten the shaft dramatically-- point the butt of the club at the ball and then swing. If you do it with your body tilt and not by rolling arms o wrists, you will need to step on your front leg--activating your front hip-- and bring your back elbow in tight. Then you are ready to hit the INSIDE of the ball and bring the clubhead along the target line from the inside. If the cluhhead is aligned at impact-- the ball goes straight or draws. Rehearse it in slow motion, then slowly increase speed. It works.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/larryrsf?feature=mhw4[/url] [/quote]

I'm sorry, but that last paragraph is a load of codswallop.

It might work, but you haven't actually show that it does. Let's see a video of you actually hitting balls... ...and make it one where we can actually see where they go...


[quote]Watch the clubhead move straight back from the ball on top-- as I post to my front leg before downswinging. I can do this much more smoothly on the range. It feels like you are making the clubhead describe a "figure 8" as you take it up and bring it down from the inside.

If you watched the recent pro tournament, the winner Villegas did this very difinitely.[/QUOTE]

Nothing you do looks even remotely like anything done by any pro golfer, Larry

"Squat more so that you then need to come up an little as you approach impact... now THAT takes timing."

That's the kind of squat I used to do. It's terrible and I hit more blocks than anything else.

Larry, is your pro trying to teach you to swing like Jim Furyk? Cause "he has you swinging straight vertical" like Furyk and then "dropping it way inside so the butt is pointing near the ball" like Furyk. But you're not Jim Furyk. Forget this swing super vertical and drop it in BS. Why can't you just swing back on plane, and then swing through on plane? Your way is just asinine and will just lead to shanks, blocks, and snap hooks.

AB and Larry have been working hard today I see . . . . . . [img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5elf/popcorn2.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=noshuz]over analytical JA's.......:confused:[/QUOTE]

Got to agree here. Some people need to flush their mental toilet. The bottom line, to me, is that three fundamental condidtions have to be met to hit a ball straight and far.

1. The club head must be square to the target line at impact.
2. The club head must travel on the right path
3. The club head must approch the ball on the correct angle of attack

The grip is the principal factor in determining how square the club head is at impact.
The alignment at set up is the principal factor in determining the path of the club head.
Posture is the principal factor in determining the angle of attack.

When I swing I try to get swing the arms up whilst turning away form the target in one harmonious movement without any part of my whole body working independently. In the downswing I try to swing my arms down whilst getting my body out of the way, again both elements working in harmony. I'll admit, easy to say but frightfully hard to do and nigh on impossible to do 100% of the time.

[QUOTE=A V Twiss]Got to agree here. Some people need to flush their mental toilet. The bottom line, to me, is that three fundamental condidtions have to be met to hit a ball straight and far.

1. The club head must be square to the target line at impact.
2. The club head must travel on the right path
3. The club head must approch the ball on the correct angle of attack

The grip is the principal factor in determining how square the club head is at impact.
The alignment at set up is the principal factor in determining the path of the club head.
Posture is the principal factor in determining the angle of attack.

When I swing I try to get swing the arms up whilst turning away form the target in one harmonious movement without any part of my whole body working independently. In the downswing I try to swing my arms down whilst getting my body out of the way, again both elements working in harmony. I'll admit, easy to say but frightfully hard to do and nigh on impossible to do 100% of the time.[/QUOTE]


I'd add that you have to at least attempt to create some clubhead speed - can't hit the ball very far without it.

Center face contact is critical. So are face angle and angle of attack.

Smoothness of the swing really helps to create speed - every little hitch or glitch un-rounds the swing arc and robs you of speed. Swinging smoothly with the proper tempo can minimize the effects of these errors and will preserve a surprising amount of clubhead speed. Maintaining the width of your arc is also critical - the longer the lever, the greater the speed - if unloaded naturally/properly (on plane).

Staying on plane allows you to maintain the greatest clubhead speed with the least amount of effort, because the club is truly traveling the shortest possible distance. Fastest way from Point A to Point B - a straight line - or at least as straight as one can manage... inertia will do more of the work for you if you can keep the club on plane as well. The law of the conservation of momentum is important in a powerful golf swing.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum[/URL]

It's all rather important, but thankfully a lot of it happens naturally when we do the simple things correctly.



FON

[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]I'd add that you have to at least attempt to create some clubhead speed - can't hit the ball very far without it.

Center face contact is critical. So are face angle and angle of attack.

Smoothness of the swing really helps to create speed - every little hitch or glitch un-rounds the swing arc and robs you of speed. Swinging smoothly with the proper tempo can minimize the effects of these errors and will preserve a surprising amount of clubhead speed. Maintaining the width of your arc is also critical - the longer the lever, the greater the speed - if unloaded naturally/properly (on plane).

Staying on plane allows you to maintain the greatest clubhead speed with the least amount of effort, because the club is truly traveling the shortest possible distance. Fastest way from Point A to Point B - a straight line - or at least as straight as one can manage... inertia will do more of the work for you if you can keep the club on plane as well. The law of the conservation of momentum is important in a powerful golf swing.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum[/URL]

It's all rather important, but thankfully a lot of it happens naturally when we do the simple things correctly.



FON[/QUOTE]

Agreed. However there are surprising few people who do not possess enough club head speed to hit the ball well (given good health not beeing too old). There are thousands who have the speed but can't apply it properly. I also agree that getting the basics absolutely right allows other factors to happen naturally.

[QUOTE=noshuz]I alwayz thot hee wer pritee smort.....
[ATTACH]2340[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]

Glad that guy is outta there, he was SO stupid...

this new guy is MUCH better. SMARTER. :-)



[IMG]http://www.obamablog08.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/obama-phone-photo-opp-upside-down.jpg[/IMG]