Master's of Long Drive Competition April 10

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Anthropomorphism is almost as ignorant and illogical as speciesism. You show a remarkable insight into both.[/QUOTE]

My point was that hunting is nothing like those special forces operatives, snipers and regular grunts you speak of. They are soldiers who fight in armed conflicts with other humans. Comparing them to hunters is like comparing apples and oranges.

Venturing into rugged dense bush country to try and hunt deer is not as one sided and easy as you think. The deer is much faster than humans, it knows it's terrain, can scent a hunter from hundreds of meters away. You really expect humans to hunt down a deer and try and take it down with his bare hands? What about a hunting knife or spear is that permissible?

I have been into the wilderness trekking many times and it is a rugged place to be and I have never once seen a deer. So it's not like the hunters just sit at the top of a hill and pick off deer at their leisure. They have to stalk & track them for many hours or sometimes days to get a kill. I have buddies that go hunting regularly and they call guys like me (hikers who go into the bush just for the scenery) loopies. They can't understand why we would do that. Hunting & fishing is the only thing that draws them into the outdoors. The deer population needs to be culled and hunting achieves this. Also they carry out as much meat as they can, sometimes an entire carcass if possible. Not that a vegan like yourself would appreciate fresh venison but I certainly do!

[QUOTE=edgey] You cannot put to death that which is not capable of independant life. [/QUOTE]

Sure you can. In the states it's called "Partial Birth Abortion", where birth is induced, and while the head is still in the birth canal, the doctor takes scissors and punches a hole in the skull, then vacuums out the brains. This is to prevent the awkward legal conundrum of a mother who does not want to have a baby ending up with a living baby outside the womb, that then has to be killed to satisfy her request.... if it is not born alive, well then no problem. So they kill it while it's halfway through being born.

This is legal in the USA, and is called 'abortion', even though it is plainly and undeniably the killing of a baby that was in the process of being born and could have lived on its own. Many of them are done after the eighth month.

Just facts. Just reality. Happens every day over here, millions per year.

Besides, if 'capable of independent life' is the definition of humanity, lots of folks in wheelchairs and on ventilators and on dialysis and so forth would be simply dispensed with as not human. Ditto the retarded, who might be physically capable but not mentally.

No, being a 'human being' requires a bit more thoughtful definition.

[I]94.96% of all statistics are made up on the spot - Example in case[/I]

rotten example, as I was obviously choosing a number from thin air and 'betting' on it. Nothing to do with citing a false statistic, only making a guess. I stand by it as a guess and predict that it is underguessed. IF I claim it is a statistical fact, flame me if I'm wrong. I did not make that claim in this case.


[I]Not that they cant afford, more often they dont have the health care in place (much of Africa) OR the Catholic Church have indoctrinated these poor souls into believeing abortion is a mortal sin OR the state have outlawed abortion (hence why so many girls from Ireland come to the UK for an abortion) or lunatics bomb abortion centres to intimidate women from exercising their legal rights (USA)
[/I]

It is very MUCH that they can't afford. that is the same reason why they don't have the "health care" in place to perform abortions, as it is a luxury of a more developed world to be able to choose to kill its own children in safe clean clinics. Anopheles mosquitoes and AIDS will have to get the job done in Africa, but sadly, these options often kill children whose parents wanted them to live.

Was the outlawing of abortion in Ireland a matter of the popular vote? If it was, what's wrong with democracy?

I remain amazed at the public perception of lunatics attacking abortion centres. Our media certainly know how to make a rare event seem like a common one. It is approximately a thousand times more often that lunatic muslims bomb pretty much ANYONE in the name of their God than that a lunatic self-styled Christian bombs an abortion centre or even shoots a doctor. It seems to happen about every six years, give or take. But so much credit for evil goes to Christianity in general for these rare isolated events ([I]which are repeatedly cited as if they have happened over and over again like Groundhog Day[/I]), while we bend over backwards (or forwards) to NOT give credit to Islam for the evils people do in its name.

Our media cannot even plainly say that the Hassan character from Ft. Hood was a muslim doing jihad. But the George Tiller shooter gets ENDLESS coverage.

[I]People go to Africa/Romania for many reasons but it isnt that children are not desperately waiting for adoption in the USA/UK. People go to these 3rd world countrys for many reasons inc publicity (Madonna, Jolie/Pitt etc) to avoid the rigorous checks that are done on prospective adoptive parents in the USA/UK or because they feel they are doing some greater good helping disadvantaged 3rd world kids.[/I]

Nobody avoids rigorous checks when adopting here. All adoptions are a matter of enormous paperwork and checks and time. Bringing in a child from a foreign country and making a citizen of him/her is far from easy or quick, and avoids NOTHING in the way of checks.

As far as the greater good, I have nothing against a couple who not only wish to do the good of raising a child which is not their own but who also wish to do the good of alleviating poverty and suffering for the child and/or its family. Two goods make a greater good. But many adoptive families here say the wait is endless and the children are simply not available. And as Sooner mentioned, with 37 million abortions, about 2 million a year, it's no wonder there are no babies. It's too easy to just rid oneself of the inconvenience.

HB, I have defended myself. :-)

Can't we all just respect each other's values, accepting that all of this is value based and the liklihood of persuasion is low while the likelilhood of bitter disagreement is high?

I've always assumed that if you open your mind, develop your personal morals and then sacrifice to live by them, you'll do ok in some supernatural court adjudicating your life, if one does exist.

Yes, it's tempting to throw the spotlight on religious hypocrisy, just like it's easy to blame all laser users because some crewcutted, thick glassed midwesterners have to unfold the instructions every time they use one.

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]Since you are being technical in pointing out the "Extremist" bit, then allow me to point out that I have never claimed to be a Bible thumper, nor have I said "gay marriage is wrong" according to the Bible. I HAVE been well trained and educated in the Bible as well as other world religions and have expansive knowledge in that area.

But, here is the deal, "anti-abortion" and "anti-gay marriage" is not just a Christian subject. I disagree with both because of physiological and mental reasons. Physiologically and ethically it is inconsistent to put a death sentence on a man or woman who intentionally goes out and kills somebody in our society, but let a woman go scott free after aborting her 3 month year old baby. Also, have you ever counseled with women who 3 or 4 years later are having traumatic psychological reactions to what they have always felt was wrong to do, but way too convenient at the time? It's a sad ordeal, Edgey. The human mind can only rationalize what it knows to be wrong for so long before it starts eating a person up inside.

Gay marriages without children involved are just legal dick sucking sessions for all I am concerned, but whenever it involves children, there is a great deal of confusion and psychiatric effects that take place. Why put a child through all of that just to suck dick or lick muff?

There are plenty of reasons other than Bible reasons and I have to counsel the aftereffects of these acts all the time, Edgey. So, you'll have to excuse me if I end up formulating an opinion based on my ongoing experiences instead of my Bible knowledge . . . . . .[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately i have EXTENSIVE experience in counselling kids (6 - 18) who have been born into a life of utter misery, neglect and abuse by parents who have no interest in them and have no parenting skills whatsoever. 30% of these go on to parent in a way they were parented and so it goes on, generation after generation.

Point is Soon that i respect your views about abortion, gay marriage etc providing you accept that in your democracy the law states it is legal.

Do you accept that regardless of your views abortion is legal and as such you support the right of a woman to abort even though you believe it to be wrong. It is cool to express your view but ultimately you must state it is unaceptable to promote, incite or carry out any act that would seek to deny that woman her legal right.

If you do (as i accept anyones right to not abort for whatever reason) we have no disagreement.

Come on Sooner lets here you defend the womans right to legal abortion, even though you believe it to be morally wrong.

Edgey

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc][B][U]Can't we all just respect each other's values[/U], accepting that all of this is value based and the liklihood of persuasion is low while the likelilhood of bitter disagreement is high?[/B]

I've always assumed that if you open your mind, develop your personal morals and then sacrifice to live by them, you'll do ok in some supernatural court adjudicating your life, if one does exist.
[/QUOTE]

On low importance stuff like religion, of course we can.

On important matters like blades versus cavity backs or cast versus forged NEVER!

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]In low importance stuff like religion, of course we can.

On important matters like blades versus cavity backs or cast versus forged NEVER![/QUOTE]

My posts are measured, dignified, mostly fact based, and when opinionated, I always admit the validity and value of other opinions. I am no dictator. I offer food for thought, not the kind of 'take it on faith alone' silliness of which I have been accused by, ah, edgy people...

except in the case of the clear superiority of Adams irons. On this topic I brook no dissent and will take all action available to me to suppress any contrary opinions, for the good of the golfing state. All Mizuno players are subject to immediate arrest and interrogation, and confiscation of all relevant equipment.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc] it's easy to blame all laser users because some crewcutted, thick glassed midwesterners have to unfold the instructions every time they use one.[/QUOTE]

I thought the guys in crewcuts with the thick glasses were the engineers who already know how to use lasers without having to read the instructions.

Zo, I'm changin your nick to "Rodney King... can't we all just git along?"

[QUOTE=daveperkins]Sure you can. In the states it's called "Partial Birth Abortion", where birth is induced, and while the head is still in the birth canal, the doctor takes scissors and punches a hole in the skull, then vacuums out the brains. This is to prevent the awkward legal conundrum of a mother who does not want to have a baby ending up with a living baby outside the womb, that then has to be killed to satisfy her request.... if it is not born alive, well then no problem. So they kill it while it's halfway through being born.

This is legal in the USA, and is called 'abortion', even though it is plainly and undeniably the killing of a baby that was in the process of being born and could have lived on its own. Many of them are done after the eighth month.

Just facts. Just reality. Happens every day over here, millions per year.

Besides, if 'capable of independent life' is the definition of humanity, lots of folks in wheelchairs and on ventilators and on dialysis and so forth would be simply dispensed with as not human. Ditto the retarded, who might be physically capable but not mentally.

No, being a 'human being' requires a bit more thoughtful definition.[/QUOTE]

You just showed your true colors my friend. You are one of those people out there that are part of the problem, not the solution. You are extremist and will do or say anything you can to make your point. Your post above is reason enough for me to never read or respond to anything you have to say in the future.

[QUOTE=Horseballs]Dave, the reason I'm asking nicely is because of the utter hypocrisy that surrounds organized religion in general. Belief in a particular religion depends upon the neighborhood you grow up in, so to speak. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you'd be a Muslim, and eat up all their teachings with a spoon. If you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu or Muslim or Buddhist. If you were born to Jewish parents, you'd be a Jew. The radical Muslim would be the literal Bible interpreter if born in a different zip code. It's a personality flaw if you will.
Each of these religions throughout history believe that they are the one true path to enlightenment. None of them are. They are each social constructs will their own mythologies. Nothing to take seriously, and certainly nothing to justify murder.
On abortion. While it may be disgusting to think that people are killing a bunch of babies, why the need to push a moral agenda on someone else's (maybe bad) decision? Can't you just silently condemn these sinners to hell, or pray for their souls, or pray for Jesus to smite them? Plus, as Nifty once so eloquently put it, "We're ass deep in babies already." I have a child and would never consider aborting a life I helped create. But different people have different reasons for what they feel they must do, and I would never want to step in and make a choice for them.
Then again, I don't like the retarded government to step into people's lives or bedrooms. Like FD, outside or maybe 2 or 3 people, I don't know anyone on the pro-life side of the argument. I also don't know anyone against gay marriage, but apparently most people are against it. 10 billion people eat at McDonald's a year. 50 million adults smoke in the US.[/QUOTE]


"don't like retarded govt to step into people's lives or bedrooms"

or wallets, or doctor's offices. :-)

I was born in America, but did not grow up a Christian. It is not some cultural affliction forced on me by my birth or the time I've spent down here in Texas with the rednecks. I lived all over the world as a kid and had no religious influences.

It was a choice I made as an intelligent adult at 27, alone, after years of reading and inquiry, under pressure from nobody at all... and without any family history of any religiousness... no church or bible or God in my home.....

I am not like a Muslim growing up Muslim etc as you generalize.. I am self taught and a product of my own choice-- if that's worth anything in terms of legitimacy.... you seem to dismiss a lot of ideas as being less than fully thought out by those who adhere to them, on the grounds that they are culturally embedded or some such.

It is a reasonable notion, of course, given the bulk of the evidence, but as with all reasonable notions, exceptions abound. I am one, and there are lots like me. Even in California. :-)

I do not want to condemn anyone, silently or otherwise, and I have made that clear. If you think that's me, you really aren't reading what I write. Or you're making presumptions about me that are a product of your own perceptions, not what I write.

If you want to disagree with me, disagree with what I write. That's not too much to ask, even in the hallowed pages of GR.. :-)

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Holy Crap!

I go away for the Easter Break and on my return I login to find out how The Bosses long drive thread could have generated 68 responses so quickly only to find that only about 2 or 3 posts had anything to do with long drives and the rest is religion/wars/abortion etc. Was there any speciesism/hunting in this thread or was that all in Bosses [I]OTHER[/I] thread?[/QUOTE]

As if BossHoggwin, even as the skilled newbie he is, could have accomplished this. :-)

The GR threadjack tradition is upheld.

Your shocked experience is proof that one should either never leave GR or never come back. :-)

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc][B]Can't we all just respect each other's values, accepting that all of this is value based and the liklihood of persuasion is low while the likelilhood of bitter disagreement is high?[/B]

I've always assumed that if you open your mind, develop your personal morals and then sacrifice to live by them, you'll do ok in some supernatural court adjudicating your life, if one does exist.

Yes, it's tempting to throw the spotlight on religious hypocrisy, just like it's easy to blame all laser users because some crewcutted, thick glassed midwesterners have to unfold the instructions every time they use one.[/QUOTE]

C'mon, Lorenzo, where would be the fun in that? [img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/eng/dontknow.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=edgey]Unfortunately i have EXTENSIVE experience in counselling kids (6 - 18) who have been born into a life of utter misery, neglect and abuse by parents who have no interest in them and have no parenting skills whatsoever. 30% of these go on to parent in a way they were parented and so it goes on, generation after generation.

Point is Soon that i respect your views about abortion, gay marriage etc providing you accept that in your democracy the law states it is legal.

[B]Do you accept that regardless of your views abortion is legal and as such you support the right of a woman to abort even though you believe it to be wrong. It is cool to express your view but ultimately you must state it is unaceptable to promote, incite or carry out any act that would seek to deny that woman her legal right.[/B]

If you do (as i accept anyones right to not abort for whatever reason) we have no disagreement.

Come on Sooner lets here you defend the womans right to legal abortion, even though you believe it to be morally wrong.

Edgey[/QUOTE]

I will say this and leave it at this -- I pay my taxes, so I support my government. That doesn't always mean I like my government's decisions, laws or freedoms, but I support my government.

[img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/sae/themis.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]On low importance stuff like religion, of course we can.

On important matters like blades versus cavity backs or cast versus forged NEVER![/QUOTE]

I can live that.

I want to know what Godwin is; is he Samoan or Hawaiian or what, the too large bastard...

Was he adopted by Sandra Bullock?

Why can't I find a link or website to this competition?

Oh crap, this guy fooled all of you.

How can a 290lb fat guy hit a ball that far?

Fantastic detective work, River!

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]My point was that hunting is nothing like those special forces operatives, snipers and regular grunts you speak of. They are soldiers who fight in armed conflicts with other humans. Comparing them to hunters is like comparing apples and oranges.

Venturing into rugged dense bush country to try and hunt deer is not as one sided and easy as you think. The deer is much faster than humans, it knows it's terrain, can scent a hunter from hundreds of meters away. You really expect humans to hunt down a deer and try and take it down with his bare hands? What about a hunting knife or spear is that permissible?

I have been into the wilderness trekking many times and it is a rugged place to be and I have never once seen a deer. So it's not like the hunters just sit at the top of a hill and pick off deer at their leisure. They have to stalk & track them for many hours or sometimes days to get a kill. I have buddies that go hunting regularly and they call guys like me (hikers who go into the bush just for the scenery) loopies. They can't understand why we would do that. Hunting & fishing is the only thing that draws them into the outdoors. The deer population needs to be culled and hunting achieves this. Also they carry out as much meat as they can, sometimes an entire carcass if possible. Not that a vegan like yourself would appreciate fresh venison but I certainly do![/QUOTE]
I got your point, but you know the GR rules, you can't let a flame like yours go unchallenged.

I've actually had this debate with bigpun about a year ago. You speak of apples and oranges, your definition of hunting is far different from the accepted one here in Oz. You speak of a long drawn out process, pitting human against wilderness and animal for hours with the possibility of a single kill. In Oz, 'hunting' means going out bush with a carload of beer and enough ammunition to start a small war, and shooting at anything that moves. And most of the 'hunting' is done from the back of a ute, blasting kanagaroos who are momentarily frozen by the glare of the spot lights. This type of 'hunting' results in hundreds of animals being shot, with many injured animals escaping into the night to face a slow and painful death. And then there is the issue of joeys (baby roos), who are taken from their dead mothers pouches and smashed over the nearest rock and discarded, or die a slow and painful death if their mother is injured. I obviously don't agree with any hunting, but I accept your definition of hunting as a sport which is partaken by responsible adults who abide by unwritten rules which minimise damage. Jesse's comments were directed more at the type of hunters I have described above.

As for the need for culling, the species that needs culling the most from my observations is humans. The local welfare office would probably be a good place to start.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]I have to use the squat machine because my lower back acts up now and again. I would never max out on squat. Anyone who does is crazy.[/QUOTE]

No one should ever max out on a lift unless in competition; you max out, almost, on reps of 3, but since you are cycling it will be heavier weights next time.

And I don't squat much; I deadlift.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]I got your point, but you know the GR rules, you can't let a flame like yours go unchallenged.

I've actually had this debate with bigpun about a year ago. You speak of apples and oranges, your definition of hunting is far different from the accepted one here in Oz. You speak of a long drawn out process, pitting human against wilderness and animal for hours with the possibility of a single kill. In Oz, 'hunting' means going out bush with a carload of beer and enough ammunition to start a small war, and shooting at anything that moves. And most of the 'hunting' is done from the back of a ute, blasting kanagaroos who are momentarily frozen by the glare of the spot lights. This type of 'hunting' results in hundreds of animals being shot, with many injured animals escaping into the night to face a slow and painful death. And then there is the issue of joeys (baby roos), who are taken from their dead mothers pouches and smashed over the nearest rock and discarded, or die a slow and painful death if their mother is injured. I obviously don't agree with any hunting, but I accept your definition of hunting as a sport which is partaken by responsible adults who abide by unwritten rules which minimise damage. Jesse's comments were directed more at the type of hunters I have described above.

As for the need for culling, the species that needs culling the most from my observations is humans. The local welfare office would probably be a good place to start.[/QUOTE]

It is true. If they didn't hunt the deer, they would overpopulate and starve to death and wreak all sorts of havoc.

Also, 250 million ducks come down, fleeing the ghettos of Canada to come to America every year, and those in the Great Lakes, hunt them down with a vengeance.

Remember,

Life must eat life to survive.

Killing baby kangaroos is kind of screwed up though...

spank

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]........The human mind can only rationalize what it knows to be wrong for so long before it starts eating a person up inside.. . . . . .[/QUOTE]
Which is where organised religion comes in, to alleviate this pressure and remove personal accountability for what it knows to be wrong on to a higher force who moves in mysterious ways but is righteous and has reasons which we are not allowed to challenge.

P.S. Sooner, I know I am quoting your comment out of context (abortion), but it applies to things other than abortion.

[QUOTE=edgey]HB

The Christian right drip with hypocrisy. They are pro life but pro capital punishment, pro life but pro war, pro life but pro gun.

These are issues of science for me. Life begins when it can survive outside the womb. As such i am pro choice up to that point. The world is awash with unwanted children born into a life of misery and abuse destined only to become abusers. There are not enough decent foster/adoptive parents to take up the slack from the great unwashed who do not understand contraception.

The trouble with the extreme left and right is they are not prepared to reflect on the issues and answer them without dogmatic bollocks dictating the response. As i said, ban all organised religion and the world becomes a much happier place overnight.

Edgey[/QUOTE]

As usual, it's up to the mindless extremists to insist on more thought and less 'centrist dogma'... :-)

Define "survival outside the womb".. I'll stipulate normal feeding and care. What about oxygen? IV nutrients? How premature must a birth be to declare that it cannot survive? INfants as much as three months premature have 'survived' given the proper attention from adults who can and will help it do so.

Technically, NO newborn can 'survive'. So I'll ask what you mean by that. It isn't a well thought out dogma.

NOBODY is 'pro war'. [I]Nobody advocates for war as the first answer or the only answer to every problem.[/I] That is severely simplistic, a real straw man.

Some conclude war is necessary while others insist it is never necessary. As far as 'dogma' goes, it seems to be the anti war side who will [B]never[/B] be convinced they're wrong.

Pro life but pro gun? You bet. I'm pro MY LIFE and the lives of the people I care about. When you need police in seconds, they'll be there in minutes.

Guns are used to prevent or foil violent crime in America almost every day, many without firing a shot. Check out The Armed Citizen blog for daily stories from local newspapers and TV, actual news stories, not blog opinions.

Guns are used to defend people's lives, family, property, almost every day. Nobody ever hears those stories. Wonder why. In England, it used to be legal to defend your family and home. Now it's the one who defends himself who goes to prison. We are not yet there, and Texas will be the last place to go there.

as for capital punishment, let me note that my wife of one year was carjacked, raped and murdered in Cleveland, OH in 1991 by a guy with a 9mm pistol, eastern bloc, no serial number, Saturday Nite Special. shot her in the head and dumped her naked in the snow to die.. got the death penalty from the State of Ohio......

what that man did to my wife Amy cannot be forgiven. If he is given his life back ([I]as he was by an appeals court in 2005, overturning his death sentence after 15 years of beavering away at it[/I]), where do I go to get HER life back? Anyone? Anyone?

No gun laws would have prevented this man from having this gun. He bought it illegally, and it was imported illegally. Those who break laws will not obey new laws. It's a fool's game. My current wife is very good with her guns. Lesson learned.

................................................

Technically speaking, if an unborn baby is a person ([I]and some do not believe this, which is a defensible argument[/I]), it is also an INNOCENT person.

Not so for that fellow. He is guilty as sin, never repented, never admitted guilt, literally had her blood on his hands.. a genuine, hardcore, cold blooded rapist and murderer who literally does not deserve to be alive today. If they would go on and execute him I would press the button myself without hesitation.

To kill the innocent is a tragedy. ([I]if an unborn baby is a person, it is by definition innocent[/I]).

To punish the guilty, not so much. Not sure why this is some giant moral dilemma. Seems pretty simple to me. I am not 'pro death' ([I]that is to say I am not one who first and always insists on death penalties[/I]), but in cases where it is incontrovertible and self-evident, it should be an option. Manson should be dead instead of breathing taxpayer money. So should Marc Dutroux in Belgium.

Edgey, yer a bit harsh for a civilized fellow having an interesting discussion on issues. I admit here, as usual, the other side of any of these arguments is valid and defensible. I'd like to see more defending and less 'centrist dogma'. :-))

It would be nice to see your edge come off just a bit...

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]I got your point, but you know the GR rules, you can't let a flame like yours go unchallenged.

I've actually had this debate with bigpun about a year ago. You speak of apples and oranges, your definition of hunting is far different from the accepted one here in Oz. You speak of a long drawn out process, pitting human against wilderness and animal for hours with the possibility of a single kill. In Oz, 'hunting' means going out bush with a carload of beer and enough ammunition to start a small war, and shooting at anything that moves. And most of the 'hunting' is done from the back of a ute, blasting kanagaroos who are momentarily frozen by the glare of the spot lights. This type of 'hunting' results in hundreds of animals being shot, with many injured animals escaping into the night to face a slow and painful death. And then there is the issue of joeys (baby roos), who are taken from their dead mothers pouches and smashed over the nearest rock and discarded, or die a slow and painful death if their mother is injured. I obviously don't agree with any hunting, but I accept your definition of hunting as a sport which is partaken by responsible adults who abide by unwritten rules which minimise damage. Jesse's comments were directed more at the type of hunters I have described above.

As for the need for culling, the species that needs culling the most from my observations is humans. The local welfare office would probably be a good place to start.[/QUOTE]

Your Roo hunting sounds brutal as well dangerous. It's different here and no hunter I know likes to wing his prey and allow it to escape to suffer a slow painful death.

Despite our different take on hunting hunters shoot each other EVERY year and often it is lifetime mates shooting each other as they simply shoot in the direction of any movement in the undergrowth.

I imagine your wild west style Roo hunting would result in a bit of human culling each year wouldn't it?

The culling is required because deer are an introduced species and have no natural predators in NZ i.e. no wolves, mountain lions, bears or even foxes. If we didn't cull them they would overpopulate their habitat very quickly. Their introduction along with rabbits, stoats, ferrets and possums is another man made problem but that is a different discussion.

Guys..I love ya, but can we please take this to the non golf side. Please? Someone start a random politics/religion thread and all of our threadjacks will be cosolidated. I don't mind the debate, but some do, and it should be avoidable in the golf forum. I don't want myself or a new visitor to come looking for info on long drives, thrivers, ostriches, blades vs cavity back debates, and Punky Brewsters tits, to stuble onto **** this heavy.
I've got nothing against a good threadjack, but on the golf side, can we keep them in the amusing category? Please??

[QUOTE=Home-slicer]Guys..I love ya, but can we please take this to the non golf side. Please? Someone start a random politics/religion thread and all of our threadjacks will be cosolidated. I don't mind the debate, but some do, and it should be avoidable in the golf forum. I don't want myself or a new visitor to come looking for info on long drives, thrivers, ostriches, blades vs cavity back debates, and Punky Brewsters tits, to stuble onto **** this heavy.
I've got nothing against a good threadjack, but on the gf side, [B]can we keep them in the amusing category[/B]? Please??[/QUOTE]

You don't find the Religion debate amusing???

Do you have no sense of humor? :p

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]You don't find the Religion debate amusing???

Do you have no sense of humor? :p[/QUOTE]

Maybe lighthearted would be a better word. It's definately entertaining, but it gets a little too heated for the golf forum IMO.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]I agree with some of the things you say above. My only response is that I can't imagine living in a government where they would force a woman to have a baby. She may regret it later but it's her body. We clould argue all day long about term, rights of the baby, etc and that's why it's not worth arguing over. We disagree.

People argue about hunting. I think people should have the right to bear arms and the right to hunt. However, I wish the people who hunt would have the balls to admit that the only reason they do it is for the thrill of the kill. That is why people hunt. It's the thrill of being outdoors with their buddies and then killing something in cold blood...just like our ancestor's did millions of years ago. I do not believe that people hunt for meat. The meat is just a side issue and I would bet that most hunter's end up eating less than 10% of what they kill. If I went hunting I'm sure I would feel the thrill but I doubt that I would feel good when I got back home. I'm not against hunting, I just think it's bad for your health.[/QUOTE]

Some people hunt because they enjoy hunting and are respectful of the sport and the animals. Some people enjoy the power and control over the animals because they can kill them. The first type of hunter is worthy. The second should be ashamed and not be allowed to hunt. Just like my opinion on golf...some people golf for the love of the game, fun, etc and follow etiquette. Some people violate the rights of others while on the course (not letting faster groups play through, not fixing divots, ball marks, etc) and act like jerks. It's the same people who act like jerks in any aspect of life. Put them in any situation and they'll find the lowest most unworthy way to go about it.

[QUOTE=collegegolfer][B]Some people hunt because they enjoy hunting and are respectful of the sport and the animals. Some people enjoy the power and control over the animals because they can kill them. The first type of hunter is worthy. The second should be ashamed and not be allowed to hunt.[/B] Just like my opinion on golf...some people golf for the love of the game, fun, etc and follow etiquette. Some people violate the rights of others while on the course (not letting faster groups play through, not fixing divots, ball marks, etc) and act like jerks. It's the same people who act like jerks in any aspect of life. Put them in any situation and they'll find the lowest most unworthy way to go about it.[/QUOTE]

Well said and you shouldn't ban the first group because of the bad behavior of the second. It's a bit like banning alcohol just because some people abuse it.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Your Roo hunting sounds brutal as well dangerous. It's different here and no hunter I know likes to wing his prey and allow it to escape to suffer a slow painful death.

Despite our different take on hunting hunters shoot each other EVERY year and often it is lifetime mates shooting each other as they simply shoot in the direction of any movement in the undergrowth.

I imagine your wild west style Roo hunting would result in a bit of human culling each year wouldn't it?

The culling is required because deer are an introduced species and have no natural predators in NZ i.e. no wolves, mountain lions, bears or even foxes. If we didn't cull them they would overpopulate their habitat very quickly. Their introduction along with rabbits, stoats, ferrets and possums is another man made problem but that is a different discussion.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunatley not enough cowboy hunters here make it to the Darwin awards. I actually do understand what you are saying about overpopulation as in Oz we have rabbits, foxes, goats, camels, pigs, cane toads etc which have been introduced and got out and overpopulated, but our parks and wildlifes departments, in their infinite wisdom, think strategies like the indiscriminate use of 1080 and Pindone poison is the answer.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Which is where organised religion comes in, to alleviate this pressure and remove personal accountability for what it knows to be wrong on to a higher force who moves in mysterious ways but is righteous and has reasons which we are not allowed to challenge.

P.S. [B]Sooner, I know I am quoting your comment out of context (abortion), but it applies to things other than abortion[/B].[/QUOTE]

That is perfectly allowable on GR, so go ahead . . . .

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Unfortunatley not enough cowboy hunters here make it to the Darwin awards. I actually do understand what you are saying about overpopulation as in Oz we have rabbits, foxes, goats, camels, pigs, cane toads etc which have been introduced and got out and overpopulated, but our parks and wildlifes departments, in their infinite wisdom, think strategies like the indiscriminate use of 1080 and Pindone poison is the answer.[/QUOTE]

Yeah we still drop 1080 although it creates massive debate and protest. Terrible stuff. I have friends that work in conservation programmes and the 1080 is supposed to kill possums, stoats etc but they say that if they ever release Kiwi's or other endangered birds into areas where 1080 has been dropped NOTHING survives.

It should be banned.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Yeah we still drop 1080 although it creates massive debate and protest. Terrible stuff. I have friends that work in conservation programmes and the 1080 is supposed to kill possums, stoats etc but they say that if they ever release Kiwi's or other endangered birds into areas where 1080 has been dropped NOTHING survives.

It should be banned.[/QUOTE]
No argument form me. I've seen footage of animals dying form it, gruesome stuff. It makes it's way through the whole ecosystem and has a longer shelf life than an enriched unranium isotope (slight exaggeration but you know what I mean). Also has no antidote so non targets unlucky enough to ingest it eg. pet dog, cat, horse or even person, is going to die an agonising death and nothing can be done to stop it. Of all the incomprehensible, illogical, hair brained stunts pulled by our governement (and there are thousands of them) the use of 1080 would have to be near the top of the list, right next to introducing cane toads to kill cane beatles.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Which is where organised religion comes in, to alleviate this pressure and remove personal accountability for what it knows to be wrong on to a higher force who moves in mysterious ways but is righteous and has reasons which we are not allowed to challenge.

P.S. Sooner, I know I am quoting your comment out of context (abortion), but it applies to things other than abortion.[/QUOTE]

I've been trying to stay out of this, but this is too good to not acknowledge.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]I've been trying to stay out of this, but this is too good to not acknowledge.[/QUOTE]
Just let go Zo, threads like this don't come along every day. Every second post is a gilt edged zing waiting to happen.

I have been feeling like I'm at this giant buffet where everyone is pigging out and all I can do is watch.

[QUOTE=Horseballs]I'm not sure. Sure is nice to have that option, even if it means I go straight to hell in the afterlife (or nothing happens, or I get reincarnated as a dung beetle, or I only get half the amount of virgins in the afterlife, or I am forced into servitude on some alien planet).[/QUOTE]

If only we could see above this earthly plane, clarify our minds, open our thoughts to the truth, we might discover we already are dung beetles in servitude to virgin aliens.... just cuz they're virgins doesn't mean they don't need their dung rolled up into balls and moved from here to there...

you've clearly had some sort of clairvoyant experience on this one.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]You just showed your true colors my friend. You are one of those people out there that are part of the problem, not the solution. You are extremist and will do or say anything you can to make your point. Your post above is reason enough for me to never read or respond to anything you have to say in the future.[/QUOTE]

wow.

I just described common everyday occurrences in this country. It's just the facts.

is this how the other side handles tough stuff? When facts are upsetting, call the other guy an extremist and go away?

Or do you propose that what I've said is not true.... [I][B]that we couldn't possibly be so barbaric and brutal in this civilized country of ours.....?
[/B][/I]
Which is is, FD? Am I making stuff up, or are you really upset about those facts and not my 'extremism'?

This stuff happens, every day, all across the country. It's legal and normal. People on the pro choice side defend it, legislators refuse to outlaw it. It is normal. describing the normal in dispassionate narrative is the OPPOSITE of extremism.

Extremism, in fact, is an emotional and dismissive reaction to plain truth. Sometimes truth sucks. But I prefer to know it, confront it, try to change something.

This actually kind of hurts my feelings. FD has recoiled from plain truth here and shot the messenger. It would be nice if I could go through life just not knowing about the things that upset me...

Well, I did predict this would happen. The prophecy has more to reveal. The crystal ball has foretold that several people will become severely butt-hurt and hold silly grudges.

[QUOTE=Horseballs]Well, I did predict this would happen. The prophecy has more to reveal. The crystal ball has foretold that several people will become severely butt-hurt and hold silly grudges.[/QUOTE]

don't you mean the "crystalballs"?

:-)

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]As everyone on GR is probably aware, I am against hunting and have similar thoughts to you as to the motivation of 'hunters'. .[/QUOTE]

I should mention that in Texas we have a LOT of deer. I remember years back when the state wasn't doing a good job with the surveys and population control, I used to see deer by the side of the road that were runts, ribs showing through, obviously starving. I assumed at the time that this was because there were too many. There were literally thousands of deer strikes on highways, and some of them killed people. Still happens, of course. Happened to me in 1995 while on the way to a lake during predawn hours, while pulling a boat no less.... many thousands of dollars of damage...

I found out later I was right about the population of starving deer, and the state paid more attention to licensing and hunting for population control.. fewer deer, in the next generation, meant more health and better lives for them.

In this, the state of Texas now does a fairly good job. Deer hunting is big here, passed on from fathers to their kids as a family tradition.. for the most part, it's well done and with respect for the animals and the environment.

still doesn't appeal to me, but venison chili ain't bad.

[QUOTE=daveperkins]

still doesn't appeal to me, but venison chili ain't bad.[/QUOTE]

Chili? What Americans are willing to consider food never ceases to amaze me.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Chili? What Americans are willing to consider food never ceases to amaze me.[/QUOTE]

It's good stuff, Lorenzo, especially whenever it is poured over and eaten with pasta . . . .

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]It's good stuff, Lorenzo, especially whenever it is poured over and eaten with pasta . . . .[/QUOTE]

Ok, I was respectful when you were having your pointless, masturbatory discussion about Religion. Well this is a subject of even more importance. Don't make me leave the forum permanently over food.

[QUOTE=daveperkins]wow.

I just described common everyday occurrences in this country. It's just the facts.

is this how the other side handles tough stuff? When facts are upsetting, call the other guy an extremist and go away?

Or do you propose that what I've said is not true.... [I][B]that we couldn't possibly be so barbaric and brutal in this civilized country of ours.....?
[/B][/I]
Which is is, FD? Am I making stuff up, or are you really upset about those facts and not my 'extremism'?

This stuff happens, every day, all across the country. It's legal and normal. People on the pro choice side defend it, legislators refuse to outlaw it. It is normal. describing the normal in dispassionate narrative is the OPPOSITE of extremism.

Extremism, in fact, is an emotional and dismissive reaction to plain truth. Sometimes truth sucks. But I prefer to know it, confront it, try to change something.

This actually kind of hurts my feelings. FD has recoiled from plain truth here and shot the messenger. It would be nice if I could go through life just not knowing about the things that upset me...[/QUOTE]

You are an extremist. I've read your posts. You use extreme examples and portray them as the norm or that they occur all the time. It's a distortion of the truth. I don't like people who will use whatever tactics necessary to try and get other people to think the same way they do. You look for the most horrific examples you can find and then you use them for shock value. I think it's the same thing we see every day in politics. People, like you, don't really focus on the reality of the situation. You take extreme examples to make your points and you stick with them. You're not really listening to anyone. You just want to hear yourself talk. You know that 99.9% of abortions are not performed in the horrific way you described. Yet you will stick to that .1 % and keep talking about it because then you can shock people and spread your distortion of the truth without thinking twice about it. You won't talk about the methods that are used for almost every abortion in the United States, instead you'll focus on the extreme examples to make your point. In short, you have no credibility.

United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[13] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there are no precise data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[13] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[14]

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Ok, I was respectful when you were having your pointless, masturbatory discussion about Religion. Well this is a subject of even more importance. Don't make me leave the forum permanently over food.[/QUOTE]


[img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/eng/lol6.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Ok, I was respectful when you were having your pointless, masturbatory discussion about Religion. Well this is a subject of even more importance. Don't make me leave the forum permanently over food.[/QUOTE]

that Italians are still unaware of the universal superiority of that magnificent red powder does not, somehow, surprise me.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]You are an extremist. I've read your posts. You use extreme examples and portray them as the norm or that they occur all the time. It's a distortion of the truth. I don't like people who will use whatever tactics necessary to try and get other people to think the same way they do. You look for the most horrific examples you can find and then you use them for shock value. I think it's the same thing we see every day in politics. People, like you, don't really focus on the reality of the situation. You take extreme examples to make your points and you stick with them. You're not really listening to anyone. You just want to hear yourself talk. You know that 99.9% of abortions are not performed in the horrific way you described. Yet you will stick to that .1 % and keep talking about it because then you can shock people and spread your distortion of the truth without thinking twice about it. You won't talk about the methods that are used for almost every abortion in the United States, instead you'll focus on the extreme examples to make your point. In short, you have no credibility.

United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[13] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there are no precise data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[13] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[14][/QUOTE]

What is the 'point' I was making so extremely and so shockily? I just related facts, a thing that happens and is legal and normal. why is it shocking, what's the problem with it? Not me. I didn't invent it, didn't make it up. It happens.

If it's a thousand times a year, then it's three times a day on average, thus making me right when I said this stuff happens every day, all across the country.

I can understand why CDC doesn't want to calculate those numbers. Nobody wants to talk about them at all. too much 'shock value', apparently.

but if it's over a thousand times a year, and those are the ones people KNOW about, I suggest there might be a few more happening in some clinics somewhere that people are NOT talking about. Perhaps lack of admitting it happens is another reason CDC doesn't venture there... not possible to quantify, due to lack of honesty among the statistic makers. why would there be any dishonesty, I wonder.... ? It's legal and normal.

It is the fact itself that is shocking, not my dry recitation of it. Admit it. It shocked you into some fast googling to 'refute' me, although you didn't really, because I did not make assertions to be refuted, just talked about what actually happens.

I am afraid I don't get it. If the practice is normal, why would someone talking about it be an extremist? a serious question.

I do not distort anything. I describe what happens. If this is not a large part of abortions, fine. I never said it was. I said it was legal, normal and happens every day across the country. all that is simple fact and truth, which you yourself googled and proved for me.

I responded to the idea that if a child is not out of the womb and surviving, then it is not a child. this method of abortion is a legalism that was devised to dodge this issue at the last posslble second. It is kind of awful. But my saying it doesn't make it more awful. And nothing I said was in any way a distortion or an untruth or anything other than a simple description of what is.

[QUOTE=daveperkins][I]94.96% of all statistics are made up on the spot - Example in case[/I]

rotten example, as I was obviously choosing a number from thin air and 'betting' on it. Nothing to do with citing a false statistic, only making a guess. I stand by it as a guess and predict that it is underguessed. IF I claim it is a statistical fact, flame me if I'm wrong. I did not make that claim in this case.[/QUOTE]

As i said 92.43% of all statistics are made up on the spot. At least you now acknowledge that yours was a part of the 98.94%


[QUOTE=daveperkins]Not that they cant afford, more often they dont have the health care in place (much of Africa) OR the Catholic Church have indoctrinated these poor souls into believeing abortion is a mortal sin OR the state have outlawed abortion (hence why so many girls from Ireland come to the UK for an abortion) or lunatics bomb abortion centres to intimidate women from exercising their legal rights (USA)
[/I]

It is very MUCH that they can't afford. that is the same reason why they don't have the "health care" in place to perform abortions, as it is a luxury of a more developed world to be able to choose to kill its own children in safe clean clinics. Anopheles mosquitoes and AIDS will have to get the job done in Africa, but sadly, these options often kill children whose parents wanted them to live.

Was the outlawing of abortion in Ireland a matter of the popular vote? If it was, what's wrong with democracy?[/QUOTE]

Sorry i forgot that only Third World countrys that dont have the "Luxury" of decent free at the point of contact health care, and the USA of course. No children are killed in any clinics here Dave. As i have said elsewhere the last bastion of the the religous right is emotive language. Unfortunately Dave children die of disease everywhere, perhaps if God existed he would do something to stop this tragedy.

Abortion is outlawed in Ireland because they are still under the yoke of the Catholic church Dave. The church does not have to seek a mandate from the people, they just scare ignorant frightened people, thats what organised religion does.


[QUOTE=daveperkins]I remain amazed at the public perception of lunatics attacking abortion centres. Our media certainly know how to make a rare event seem like a common one. It is approximately a thousand times more often that lunatic muslims bomb pretty much ANYONE in the name of their God than that a lunatic self-styled Christian bombs an abortion centre or even shoots a doctor. It seems to happen about every six years, give or take. But so much credit for evil goes to Christianity in general for these rare isolated events ([I]which are repeatedly cited as if they have happened over and over again like Groundhog Day[/I]), while we bend over backwards (or forwards) to NOT give credit to Islam for the evils people do in its name.

Our media cannot even plainly say that the Hassan character from Ft. Hood was a muslim doing jihad. But the George Tiller shooter gets ENDLESS coverage.[/QUOTE]

Well so long as it is rare that someone bombs an abortion clinic or kills a Dr its OK. What about the lunatics that stand outside clinics taking car registration numbers, threatening and intimidating women and Drs that come to the clinic for LAWFUL proceedures.

Come on Dave lets hear you stand up for a womans LAWFUL right to abort even though you dont agree. I assume you will give the same slippery answer Sooner did, shameful.

[QUOTE=daveperkins[I]People go to Africa/Romania for many reasons but it isnt that children are not desperately waiting for adoption in the USA/UK. People go to these 3rd world countrys for many reasons inc publicity (Madonna, Jolie/Pitt etc) to avoid the rigorous checks that are done on prospective adoptive parents in the USA/UK or because they feel they are doing some greater good helping disadvantaged 3rd world kids

Nobody avoids rigorous checks when adopting here. All adoptions are a matter of enormous paperwork and checks and time. Bringing in a child from a foreign country and making a citizen of him/her is far from easy or quick, and avoids NOTHING in the way of checks

As far as the greater good, I have nothing against a couple who not only wish to do the good of raising a child which is not their own but who also wish to do the good of alleviating poverty and suffering for the child and/or its family. Two goods make a greater good. But many adoptive families here say the wait is endless and the children are simply not available. And as Sooner mentioned, with 37 million abortions, about 2 million a year, it's no wonder there are no babies. It's too easy to just rid oneself of the inconvenience

HB, I have defended myself. :-)[/QUOTE]

So if you had your way the USA would have a potential 37 million children awaiting adoption!! and you think the burden on the taxpayer is bad at the moment. Get real Dave, move on.

Your friend

Edgey

[QUOTE=daveperkins]that Italians are still unaware of the universal superiority of that magnificent red powder does not, somehow, surprise me.[/QUOTE]

You live in Dallas for Christ's sake. If you knew anything at all about food, you would 't live there. It's the Mecca of food ignoramouses. Chili is the culinary equivalent of a late term abortion. Chili should be eaten with forceps.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]You live in Dallas for Christ's sake. If you knew anything at all about food, you would 't live there. It's the Mecca of food ignoramouses. Chili is the culinary equivalent of a late term abortion. Chili should be eaten with forceps.[/QUOTE]

All great cuisine features chili (real/fresh chili's not the red powder).

In my experience Italian food is the blandest of the bland.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]All great cuisine features chili (real/fresh chili's not the red powder).

In my experience Italian food is the blandest of the bland.[/QUOTE]
Now you've done it, Kiwi. We're going to get a Dave-length post about how Italian food isn't just pasta and meatballs. You see, Lorenzo is a food extremist. He will state how Italians eat more than just red sauce and act like it's an every day occurence. Twice a year isn't everyday by any stretch.

[QUOTE=daveperkins]What is the 'point' I was making so extremely and so shockily? I just related facts, a thing that happens and is legal and normal. why is it shocking, what's the problem with it? Not me. I didn't invent it, didn't make it up. It happens.

If it's a thousand times a year, then it's three times a day on average, thus making me right when I said this stuff happens every day, all across the country.

I can understand why CDC doesn't want to calculate those numbers. Nobody wants to talk about them at all. too much 'shock value', apparently.

but if it's over a thousand times a year, and those are the ones people KNOW about, I suggest there might be a few more happening in some clinics somewhere that people are NOT talking about. Perhaps lack of admitting it happens is another reason CDC doesn't venture there... not possible to quantify, due to lack of honesty among the statistic makers. why would there be any dishonesty, I wonder.... ? It's legal and normal.

It is the fact itself that is shocking, not my dry recitation of it. Admit it. It shocked you into some fast googling to 'refute' me, although you didn't really, because I did not make assertions to be refuted, just talked about what actually happens.

I am afraid I don't get it. If the practice is normal, why would someone talking about it be an extremist? a serious question.

I do not distort anything. I describe what happens. If this is not a large part of abortions, fine. I never said it was. I said it was legal, normal and happens every day across the country. all that is simple fact and truth, which you yourself googled and proved for me.

I responded to the idea that if a child is not out of the womb and surviving, then it is not a child. this method of abortion is a legalism that was devised to dodge this issue at the last posslble second. It is kind of awful. But my saying it doesn't make it more awful. And nothing I said was in any way a distortion or an untruth or anything other than a simple description of what is.[/QUOTE]

"Just facts. Just reality. Happens every day over here, millions per year."

That's what you said...millions. The thousand or so abortions stated in the information I provided were for late term. That doesn't mean that a doctor induced birth and then poked the skull with a pair of scissors and vacuumed out the brain as you said. Why don't you show us the statistics of the abortions that are performed in that very way? Because you can't. You used an example of something that is extremely rare to make your point yet you stated that millions of them occur every year. You used an extreme example as a way to define abortion and therefore distorted the truth. There you go.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]All great cuisine features chili (real/fresh chili's not the red powder).

In my experience Italian food is the blandest of the bland.[/QUOTE]


Just what I'd expect of a country loaded with mutton and having descended from Britain. Spice has it's place. But if the food is awful, it's role grows and can even become paramount. In very rare cases spice can dominate and the food still great. My Marinara sauce for example. There's no way anyone from an English speaking country could eat the amped up version of my Marinara without tears streaming down their face from the heat.

But chili is never anything more than an attempt to cover up for culinary weakness. And red chili sauce is less fit to eat than afterbirth. Particularly late term afterbirth.

[QUOTE=Horseballs]Now you've done it, Kiwi. We're going to get a Dave-length post about how Italian food isn't just pasta and meatballs. You see, Lorenzo is a food extremist. He will state how Italians eat more than just red sauce and act like it's an every day occurence. Twice a year isn't everyday by any stretch.[/QUOTE]

If I'm ever responsible for a 50 line post (a Late Term Post if you will), hit me with one of my saucepans. Red sauce is largely for southern Italians. I'm obviously not southern Italian. I can't expect midwesterners and Texans to respect my food values when their food values are just plain dead wrong, ignorant and without compassion for ingredients (uncooked food). A sightless person can't perceive what he's never seen. In the same way, an American can't form a reasonable opinion about cuisine.

Go have another Big Mac. Maybe they'll put some chili on it for you. Sheesh....

[QUOTE=famousdavis]"Just facts. Just reality. Happens every day over here, millions per year."

That's what you said...millions. The thousand or so abortions stated in the information I provided were for late term. That doesn't mean that a doctor induced birth and then poked the skull with a pair of scissors and vacuumed out the brain as you said. Why don't you show us the statistics of the abortions that are performed in that very way? Because you can't. You used an example of something that is extremely rare to make your point yet you stated that millions of them occur every year. You used an extreme example as a way to define abortion and therefore distorted the truth. There you go.[/QUOTE]

In context, what I wrote was --

[I]This is legal in the USA, and is called 'abortion', even though it is plainly and undeniably the killing of a baby that was in the process of being born and could have lived on its own. Many of them are done after the eighth month.

Just facts. Just reality. Happens every day over here, millions per year.
[/I]

This was a dreadful mistake on my part, and I can see why you think I'm exaggerating. I should have been more careful. You are absolutely right in criticising that post for exaggerating.

I never intended to say that millions of PBA's happen every year, only that millions of abortions do, and PBAs are called abortions. and it is true that over a million abortions happen each year. This is why .08% is still a figure over one thousand, with many more unaccounted for by CDC as they admit. ([I]why is pregnancy considered a disease, I wonder.[/I].)

that was horrendously sloppy of me. I try very hard to be precise so that this kind of thing doesn't happen. Screwed up that one though. [B]I do apologize[/B] (biyotch move but necessary).

Part of the reason my posts are sometimes long enough to work as Ambien is because I am trying to be precise enough that I am not misunderstood.

This one was pure slop. You are absolutely right.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Just what I'd expect of a country loaded with mutton and having descended from Britain. Spice has it's place. But if the food is awful, it's role grows and can even become paramount. In very rare cases spice can dominate and the food still great. My Marinara sauce for example. There's no way anyone from an English speaking country could eat the amped up version of my Marinara without tears streaming down their face from the heat.

But chili is never anything more than an attempt to cover up for culinary weakness. And red chili sauce is less fit to eat than afterbirth. Particularly late term afterbirth.[/QUOTE]
Lots of talk about marinara sauce...
Ragu and Prego are the cat's pajamas.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Just what I'd expect of a country loaded with mutton and having descended from Britain. Spice has it's place. But if the food is awful, it's role grows and can even become paramount. In very rare cases spice can dominate and the food still great. My Marinara sauce for example. There's no way anyone from an English speaking country could eat the amped up version of my Marinara without tears streaming down their face from the heat.

But chili is never anything more than an attempt to cover up for culinary weakness. And red chili sauce is less fit to eat than afterbirth. Particularly late term afterbirth.[/QUOTE]

To be fair I love Asian food but I have traveled a lot through those countries and that is how I grew to love their food. When I traveled through Italy I was traveling on a shoe string budget and was probably living on pasta and pizza saving my cash for more important things like beer & red wine. When I visit Italy in June I will try and sample a more diverse range of Italian cuisine.

[QUOTE=Horseballs]Lots of talk about marinara sauce...
Ragu and Prego are the cat's pajamas.[/QUOTE]

This video documents America's approach to food.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt4rUpM19YU[/url]

For $1,000 an American will do anything.

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]To be fair I love Asian food but I have traveled a lot through those countries and that is how I grew to love their food. When I traveled through Italy I was traveling on a shoe string budget and was probably living on pasta and pizza saving my cash for more important things like beer & red wine. When I visit Italy in June I will try and sample a more diverse range of Italian cuisine.[/QUOTE]

Happy to help with restaurant recommendations depending upon the cities. Save some room for gelato.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]This video documents America's approach to food.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt4rUpM19YU[/url]

For $1,000 an American will do anything.[/QUOTE]
No argument here, Americans are admittedly a slovenly people.
I'd rather chew through week old late term abortion than eat garbage fast food.

[QUOTE=daveperkins]In context, what I wrote was --

[I]This is legal in the USA, and is called 'abortion', even though it is plainly and undeniably the killing of a baby that was in the process of being born and could have lived on its own. Many of them are done after the eighth month.

Just facts. Just reality. Happens every day over here, millions per year.
[/I]

This was a dreadful mistake on my part, and I can see why you think I'm exaggerating. I should have been more careful. You are absolutely right in criticising that post for exaggerating.

I never intended to say that millions of PBA's happen every year, only that millions of abortions do, and PBAs are called abortions. and it is true that over a million abortions happen each year. This is why .08% is still a figure over one thousand, with many more unaccounted for by CDC as they admit. ([I]why is pregnancy considered a disease, I wonder.[/I].)

that was horrendously sloppy of me. I try very hard to be precise so that this kind of thing doesn't happen. Screwed up that one though. [B]I do apologize[/B] (biyotch move but necessary).

Part of the reason my posts are sometimes long enough to work as Ambien is because I am trying to be precise enough that I am not misunderstood.

This one was pure slop. You are absolutely right.[/QUOTE]

No problem, you're a good guy in my book by admitting you may have made an error. The only point I was trying to make is that people often use extreme examples when debating any given topic. They count on illiciting fear and shock in people and it results in them making decisions that are based on the lowest common denominator.

[I]Abortion is outlawed in Ireland because they are still under the yoke of the Catholic church Dave. The church does not have to seek a mandate from the people, they just scare ignorant frightened people, thats what organised religion does.[/I]

I am a world traveler and have lived abroad, but I do not really know what 'under the yoke of the church' means. Do people not get to vote? Are they ordered to vote one way or another? Why would they accept this in the 21st century? Are the people stupid? Does the church use force or imprison the recalcitrant?

"yoke"?

[I]Well so long as it is rare that someone bombs an abortion clinic or kills a Dr its OK. What about the lunatics that stand outside clinics taking car registration numbers, threatening and intimidating women and Drs that come to the clinic for LAWFUL proceedures. [/I]

I say it's rare and overstated, and you interpret this as my acceptance of a level of violence. Nonsense, and I've said nothing of the kind. I reject and denounce any and all violence, and any threatening behavior [I]on either side[/I]. And it is on both sides.

[I]
Come on Dave lets hear you stand up for a womans LAWFUL right to abort even though you dont agree. I assume you will give the same slippery answer Sooner did, shameful.[/I]

assuming my shame again, eh... oh, the humanity. :-)

As I have said in other posts, it is legal and normal in this country, and only an idiot would insist otherwise. Facts are facts.. And I have carefully and specifically said that I admit there is a rational argument on the other side and that those who honestly believe they are doing the right thing are not morally guilty either. Like I keep asking, read what I write before deciding what I believe. .

[I]So if you had your way the USA would have a potential 37 million children awaiting adoption!! [/I]

Comedy.

all 37 million aborted babies, after 35 years of abortions, are all still infants?. Heh.

The 37 million would be part infants, part children, part teens and a[B] large[/B] part adults by now, born as early as 1974. Perhaps they'd even be taxpayers helping carry the burden. What a concept. More people in the workforce, so that the demographics of today, growing population of elderly and shrinking workforce to pay for them, could be different.

Socialism requires an ever increasing work force compared to the non-work folks, so that the workers can absorb the expense.

But socialism + abortion is a nonstarter, and the numbers are going pear shaped.

One day there will be some sort of government action against abortion on this ground, not the moral one. And many socialists will agree, seeing a need to increase the workforce so their sheite can be paid for.

It may not happen in my lifetime, but I predict western countries will one day restrict abortion so they can have a 'next generation' other than muslims.

Like the Russians paid people to have babies, and had national holidays which were offered specifically to the public for procreative behavior. They may still do this, I'm not sure.

What a world. Russians paid to have babies, and Chinese dragged off for forced abortions.

[I]Abortion is outlawed in Ireland because they are still under the yoke of the Catholic church Dave. The church does not have to seek a mandate from the people, they just scare ignorant frightened people, thats what organised religion does[/I]
[B][I]I am a world traveler and have lived abroad, but I do not really know what 'under the yoke of the church' means. Do people not get to vote? Are they ordered to vote one way or another? Why would they accept this in the 21st century? Are the people stupid? Does the church use force or imprison the recalcitrant?[/I][/B]

The people in Ireland cannot vote for any party that will legalise abortion because every party is too frightened of the catholic church. Ireland remains a deeply religous society for whom the catholic church remain a powerful force. Those that want an abortion come to the UK, they dont bomb or murder (correct use of the word Dave) those who dont agree with abortion to impose their will. In fact the church does use force, they use moral force via stigmatising those who would consider abortion.

[B][I]"yoke"? [/I][/B]

A yoke was a large wooden collar locked around the neck of a slave in european history.

[I]Well so long as it is rare that someone bombs an abortion clinic or kills a Dr its OK. What about the lunatics that stand outside clinics taking car registration numbers, threatening and intimidating women and Drs that come to the clinic for LAWFUL proceedures. [/I]

[B][I]I say it's rare and overstated, and you interpret this as my acceptance of a level of violence. Nonsense, and I've said nothing of the kind. I reject and denounce any and all violence, and any threatening behavior [I]on either side[/I]. And it is on both sides[/I] [/B]

I say it is not as rare as you say but we can agree to differ. I do not believe people who agree with freedom of choice are stood in the projects taking the registration numbers of pregnant women demanding they abort, sorry Dave.


[I]Come on Dave lets hear you stand up for a womans LAWFUL right to abort even though you dont agree. I assume you will give the same slippery answer Sooner did, shameful.[/I]

[B][I]assuming my shame again, eh... oh, the humanity. :-)

As I have said in other posts, it is legal and normal in this country, and only an idiot would insist otherwise. Facts are facts.. And I have carefully and specifically said that I admit there is a rational argument on the other side and that those who honestly believe they are doing the right thing are not morally guilty either. Like I keep asking, read what I write before deciding what I believe. .[/I][/B]

I respect this answer, it is a great deal less disingenuiness than Sooners. However, Moral guilt? What is moral guilt?

[I]So if you had your way the USA would have a potential 37 million children awaiting adoption!! [/I]

[B][I]Comedy.

all 37 million aborted babies, after 35 years of abortions, are all still infants?. Heh.

The 37 million would be part infants, part children, part teens and a[B] large[/B] part adults by now, born as early as 1974. Perhaps they'd even be taxpayers helping carry the burden. What a concept. More people in the workforce, so that the demographics of today, growing population of elderly and shrinking workforce to pay for them, could be different.

Socialism requires an ever increasing work force compared to the non-work folks, so that the workers can absorb the expense [/I][/B]

Agreed it was a little tongue in cheek. However your comments are also a little specious. 37 million additional people in the US would have dire consequences for welfare, pensions etc. If the US is like the UK adopted kids chances often have very poor prospects, many have ended up either in prison or on welfare.

America doesnt need more people for work, you have the mexicans now.....

[B][I]One day there will be some sort of government action against abortion on this ground, not the moral one. And many socialists will agree, seeing a need to increase the workforce so their sheite can be paid for.

It may not happen in my lifetime, but I predict western countries will one day restrict abortion so they can have a 'next generation' other than muslims. [/I][/B]

This sounds like something Liarry would say.......

[B][I]Like the Russians paid people to have babies, and had national holidays which were offered specifically to the public for procreative behavior. They may still do this, I'm not sure[/I][/B]

They do not

[I][B]What a world. Russians paid to have babies, and Chinese dragged off for forced abortions[/B][/I]

The first part i have dealt with, the second part, good, there are way too many Chinese.

Edgey

[QUOTE=Horseballs]Lots of talk about marinara sauce...
Ragu and Prego are the cat's pajamas.[/QUOTE]

I love Italian food. Boyardee is magnifique. I bet the spaghettios and beefaroni are REALLY good in the mother country.

That does it. I'll never cook for any of you.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]That does it. I'll never cook for any of you.[/QUOTE]

Are you in Italy? Have you ever been to Italy? Just asking...

I must confess, having eaten at the finest establishments in San Francisco and Yountville, that the best pasta I have ever had was in Italy, and also the best pizza. This is saying a lot because we have some of the best food in the world here in San Francisco.

In Italy, you order a whole pizza, and it is VERY thin, with a pitcher of beer, and you eat the whole pizza. Unbelievably good, and it is not duplicated here in America.

My wife and I were walking down the street in Rome one evening, and a handsome young man was outside trying to talk people into the restaurant, so we went in; best pasta I have ever had; turned out his grandmother hand made the pasta every morning.

Oh the meat and the flavor; it has not been duplicated here, and trust me, I have eaten probably the best meals of many kinds in my life here in San Francisco. Plus the guy spoke 5 languages. I don't know how you Euro retards can speak 5 languages like it is nothing.

I recently dropped $600 on a meal in Yountville, when golfing up there last month... it averaged out to about $100 per person, and is now my favorite restaurant in Yountville.

I appreciate good food, and I personally have never found anything that matched Italy's Italian food.

Stay away from anything close to the Vatican! Tourist traps, and the food really sucks, and service too!

[QUOTE=spanqdoggie]Are you in Italy? Have you ever been to Italy? Just asking...

I must confess, having eaten at the finest establishments in San Francisco and Yountville, that the best pasta I have ever had was in Italy, and also the best pizza. This is saying a lot because we have some of the best food in the world here in San Francisco.

In Italy, you order a whole pizza, and it is VERY thin, with a pitcher of beer, and you eat the whole pizza. Unbelievably good, and it is not duplicated here in America.

My wife and I were walking down the street in Rome one evening, and a handsome young man was outside trying to talk people into the restaurant, so we went in; best pasta I have ever had; turned out his grandmother hand made the pasta every morning.

Oh the meat and the flavor; it has not been duplicated here, and trust me, I have eaten probably the best meals of many kinds in my life here in San Francisco. Plus the guy spoke 5 languages. I don't know how you Euro retards can speak 5 languages like it is nothing.

I recently dropped $600 on a meal in Yountville, when golfing up there last month... it averaged out to about $100 per person, and is now my favorite restaurant in Yountville.

I appreciate good food, and I personally have never found anything that matched Italy's Italian food.

Stay away from anything close to the Vatican! Tourist traps, and the food really sucks, and service too![/QUOTE]

I am originally from Rome. I completely agree with your assessment. You can go into Rome and order simple pasta with tomato sauce and bread, nothing else. And despite it being so simple, it would be out of this world. Here it would be boring and bland. You can't get the ingredients here.

The best the US has to offer is San Francisco and Napa, no question. So many terrific restaurants. But not quite Italia. Which restaurant? French Laundry is the name, but it really is amazing, even though it's stinking French. L'Auberge is also fantastic even though it's stinking French. Then Mustard's Grill, those are my faves.

Not French Laundry, but Redd: [url]http://www.reddnapavalley.com/[/url]

I don't want to spend 4 hours eating their at French Laundry as a matter of pride; I also have not been to Alcatraz as a matter of pride.

I wrote out a long post about food and restaurants but the flood control times me out; considering I have been banned about 20 times over the last 12 years here, I am not surprised at the flood control; doesn't work though.

I did want to mention that Acquarello was rated the 2nd best Italian restaurant in the U.S.: [url]http://www.acquerello.com/[/url]

I have eaten there around 5 times here in San Francisco and it is always quite nice.

Oh okay, what got deleted was that I had eaten at Ad Hoc in Yountville and it was overrated and it sucked in my opinion. When I was there, Keller (the owner of French Laundry) was there checking out his new restaurant, retard was eating next to us; I am not one of those jackasses that runs up to an owner, and I was unhappy with the food, so I ignored him.

Supposedly, Ad Hoc is supposed to be food for the commoners at around 85-100 bucks per person; it sucked. 95 dollars for iceberg lettuce and fried chicken is what I got.

Kiss my ass Keller.

[QUOTE=spanqdoggie]Not French Laundry, but Redd: [url]http://www.reddnapavalley.com/[/url]

I don't want to spend 4 hours eating their at French Laundry as a matter of pride; I also have not been to Alcatraz as a matter of pride.

I wrote out a long post about food and restaurants but the flood control times me out; considering I have been banned about 20 times over the last 12 years here, I am not surprised at the flood control; doesn't work though.

I did want to mention that Acquarello was rated the 2nd best Italian restaurant in the U.S.: [url]http://www.acquerello.com/[/url]

I have eaten there around 5 times here in San Francisco and it is always quite nice.

Oh okay, what got deleted was that I had eaten at Ad Hoc in Yountville and it was overrated and it sucked in my opinion. When I was there, Keller (the owner of French Laundry) was there checking out his new restaurant, retard was eating next to us; I am not one of those jackasses that runs up to an owner, and I was unhappy with the food, so I ignored him.

Supposedly,[B] Ad Hoc is supposed to be food for the commoners at around 85-100 bucks per person; it sucked. 95 dollars for iceberg lettuce and fried chicken is what I got[/B].

Kiss my ass Keller.[/QUOTE]


Haven't you guys ever heard of the $1 menu at McDonald's? Hell, I live off McChicken sandwiches . . . . . .

[QUOTE=spanqdoggie]Not French Laundry, but Redd: [url]http://www.reddnapavalley.com/[/url]

I don't want to spend 4 hours eating their at French Laundry as a matter of pride; I also have not been to Alcatraz as a matter of pride.

I wrote out a long post about food and restaurants but the flood control times me out; considering I have been banned about 20 times over the last 12 years here, I am not surprised at the flood control; doesn't work though.

I did want to mention that Acquarello was rated the 2nd best Italian restaurant in the U.S.: [url]http://www.acquerello.com/[/url]

I have eaten there around 5 times here in San Francisco and it is always quite nice.

Oh okay, what got deleted was that I had eaten at Ad Hoc in Yountville and it was overrated and it sucked in my opinion. When I was there, Keller (the owner of French Laundry) was there checking out his new restaurant, retard was eating next to us; I am not one of those jackasses that runs up to an owner, and I was unhappy with the food, so I ignored him.

Supposedly, Ad Hoc is supposed to be food for the commoners at around 85-100 bucks per person; it sucked. 95 dollars for iceberg lettuce and fried chicken is what I got.

Kiss my ass Keller.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, It is kind of f.ucked up that I like French Laundry. It's everything I hate except for the food. That part reminds me of Europe. When I'm in SF I usually go Asian. It's really difficult for me to go Italian but what the hell. The great thing about the City is you can drop in anywhere and almost a given it'll be good.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Yeah, I understand what you're saying, It is kind of f.ucked up that I like French Laundry. It's everything I hate except for the food. That part reminds me of Europe. When I'm in SF I usually go Asian. It's really difficult for me to go Italian but what the hell. The great thing about the City is you can drop in anywhere and almost a given it'll be good.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I like Redd, because you can basically have all you can eat, at a third of the price of French Laundry, and probably just as good, although I haven't eaten at French Laundry, on principle, yet.

I do not eat Italian in San Francisco either, much at all. Interesting that you call SF "the City" as this denotes a familiarity with the area.

A motorcycle cop once busted a fugitive on the run when he pulled him over in Oakland and asked, "Where are you heading," and the fugitive responded, "Frisco." No one here has ever used that term in my life, so the native cop, checked him out on the computer a little more deeply, and bingo.

Yeah, many good Asian places; I have my favorites... too many to list; you can eat at a different place everyday, and it would take you over 7 years to visit every restaurant...

The SF Chronicle likes to start little food wars all the time, but the best hamburger in San Francisco is at Bullshead; the buffalo hamburger... You can watch the debate go down here: [url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/mbauer/detail?entry_id=60698[/url] The guy that wrote the article was articulately ripped a new one in the comment section as his choices were quite wrong.

As mentioned in that link, the best hamburger is the one you grill on your own; I did that last night; got to do pictures.

I will tell you where the best taco is, and it is at Tacqueria Can Cun on 29th street/Valencia; make sure to get it with everything and jalapenos... only 3 dollars, and I do not know how they make a profit. The burrito is good too, but the taco is kick ass.

[IMG]http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e15/3409476.87.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=spanqdoggie]Yeah, I like Redd, because you can basically have all you can eat, at a third of the price of French Laundry, and probably just as good, although I haven't eaten at French Laundry, on principle, yet.

I do not eat Italian in San Francisco either, much at all. Interesting that you call SF "the City" as this denotes a familiarity with the area.

A motorcycle cop once busted a fugitive on the run when he pulled him over in Oakland and asked, "Where are you heading," and the fugitive responded, "Frisco." No one here has ever used that term in my life, so the native cop, checked him out on the computer a little more deeply, and bingo.

Yeah, many good Asian places; I have my favorites... too many to list; you can eat at a different place everyday, and it would take you over 7 years to visit every restaurant...

The SF Chronicle likes to start little food wars all the time, but the best hamburger in San Francisco is at Bullshead; the buffalo hamburger... You can watch the debate go down here: [url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/mbauer/detail?entry_id=60698[/url] The guy that wrote the article was articulately ripped a new one in the comment section as his choices were quite wrong.

As mentioned in that link, the best hamburger is the one you grill on your own; I did that last night; got to do pictures.

I will tell you where the best taco is, and it is at Tacqueria Can Cun on 29th street/Valencia; make sure to get it with everything and jalapenos... only 3 dollars, and I do not know how they make a profit. The burrito is good too, but the taco is kick ass.

[IMG]http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e15/3409476.87.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Best veggie burrito. If I'm ever in Frisco I'm there.

[QUOTE=daveperkins]Sure you can. In the states it's called "Partial Birth Abortion", where birth is induced, and while the head is still in the birth canal, the doctor takes scissors and punches a hole in the skull, then vacuums out the brains. This is to prevent the awkward legal conundrum of a mother who does not want to have a baby ending up with a living baby outside the womb, that then has to be killed to satisfy her request.... if it is not born alive, well then no problem. So they kill it while it's halfway through being born.

This is legal in the USA, and is called 'abortion', even though it is plainly and undeniably the killing of a baby that was in the process of being born and could have lived on its own. Many of them are done after the eighth month.

Just facts. Just reality. Happens every day over here, millions per year.

Besides, if 'capable of independent life' is the definition of humanity, lots of folks in wheelchairs and on ventilators and on dialysis and so forth would be simply dispensed with as not human. Ditto the retarded, who might be physically capable but not mentally.

No, being a 'human being' requires a bit more thoughtful definition.[/QUOTE]

For the record i do not support abortion beyond the medically recognised point where the foetus can survive independantly of the mother. That is the case in the UK other than very rare circumstances.

That is the definition of independant life i was referring to, for the record

Edgey

HB

As the person who started all this i can confirm that i am not in any way offended by Dave and Sooners rabid, religous zealotry. I have forgiven them for their 10th Century ignorance. In fact as someone famous once said, "forgive them father for they know not what they do" (allegedly)

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]HB

As the person who started all this i can confirm that i am not in any way offended by Dave and Sooners rabid, religous [I]zealotry[/I]. I have forgiven them for their 10th Century ignorance. In fact as someone famous once said, "forgive them father for they know not what they do" (allegedly)

Edgey[/QUOTE]
for clarity...

If I was a zealot, I'd be lurking in the trees near the 16th green with a few fellow zealots, ready to mount a surprise attack on the Edgey group and slay them all.

the [B]zealots[/B] were actually a group of rebel Jewish guerilla fighters who refused to submit to the Romans. Barabbas was one of these, which is why the crowd wanted Pilate to release him instead of Jesus... Zealots were military fighters, rebel soldiers, not preachers or talkers like me.

hey, glad to help. Anyone got any spelling problems?

:D

[QUOTE=daveperkins]for clarity...

If I was a zealot, I'd be lurking in the trees near the 16th green with a few fellow zealots, ready to mount a surprise attack on the Edgey group and slay them all.

the [B]zealots[/B] were actually a group of rebel Jewish guerilla fighters who refused to submit to the Romans. Barabbas was one of these, which is why the crowd wanted Pilate to release him instead of Jesus... Zealots were military fighters, rebel soldiers, not preachers or talkers like me.

hey, glad to help. Anyone got any spelling problems?

:D[/QUOTE]

You are indeed historically correct Dave. However the word zealot has been adopted in modern language to include any religous fanatic, expecially those of the Christian persuasion.

As such i denounce you as a zealot, and i will be watching out for you and your fellow zealots at the 16th in a short while.

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]You are indeed historically correct Dave. However the word zealot has been adopted in modern language to include any religous fanatic, expecially those of the Christian persuasion.

As such i denounce you as a zealot, and i will be watching out for you and your fellow zealots at the 16th in a short while.

Edgey[/QUOTE]


we attack at dawn with Thraginas and Chiblick Nipplers by Cleveland

By reading this one thread it can be determined that there are lots of knowledgable people here on many subjects... non golf related. But who comes here to read about golf XD

[QUOTE=spanqdoggie]Are you in Italy? Have you ever been to Italy? Just asking...

I must confess, having eaten at the finest establishments in San Francisco and Yountville, that the best pasta I have ever had was in Italy, and also the best pizza. This is saying a lot because we have some of the best food in the world here in San Francisco.

In Italy, you order a whole pizza, and it is VERY thin, with a pitcher of beer, and you eat the whole pizza. Unbelievably good, and it is not duplicated here in America.

My wife and I were walking down the street in Rome one evening, and a handsome young man was outside trying to talk people into the restaurant, so we went in; best pasta I have ever had; turned out his grandmother hand made the pasta every morning.

Oh the meat and the flavor; it has not been duplicated here, and trust me, I have eaten probably the best meals of many kinds in my life here in San Francisco. Plus the guy spoke 5 languages. I don't know how you Euro retards can speak 5 languages like it is nothing.

I recently dropped $600 on a meal in Yountville, when golfing up there last month... it averaged out to about $100 per person, and is now my favorite restaurant in Yountville.

I appreciate good food, and I personally have never found anything that matched Italy's Italian food.

Stay away from anything close to the Vatican! Tourist traps, and the food really sucks, and service too![/QUOTE]

Spank, my folks bought my wife and I a dinner at French Laundry for our anniversary. If you have the means you must try it someday. Unbelievable. We were there for 4 hours. I can't even describe how amazing it was. Another good one in that area is the Mustard Seed Cafe.

As far as San Francisco, there is nothing like going out to dinner or out to clubs in that city. I don't think there's a better city in the US for going out at night.

[QUOTE=spanqdoggie]Not French Laundry, but Redd: [url]http://www.reddnapavalley.com/[/url]

I don't want to spend 4 hours eating their at French Laundry as a matter of pride; I also have not been to Alcatraz as a matter of pride.

I wrote out a long post about food and restaurants but the flood control times me out; considering I have been banned about 20 times over the last 12 years here, I am not surprised at the flood control; doesn't work though.

I did want to mention that Acquarello was rated the 2nd best Italian restaurant in the U.S.: [url]http://www.acquerello.com/[/url]

I have eaten there around 5 times here in San Francisco and it is always quite nice.

Oh okay, what got deleted was that I had eaten at Ad Hoc in Yountville and it was overrated and it sucked in my opinion. When I was there, Keller (the owner of French Laundry) was there checking out his new restaurant, retard was eating next to us; I am not one of those jackasses that runs up to an owner, and I was unhappy with the food, so I ignored him.

Supposedly, Ad Hoc is supposed to be food for the commoners at around 85-100 bucks per person; it sucked. 95 dollars for iceberg lettuce and fried chicken is what I got.

Kiss my ass Keller.[/QUOTE]

Oops, I guess you guys already touched on French Laundry.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]Spank, my folks bought my wife and I a dinner at French Laundry for our anniversary. If you have the means you must try it someday. Unbelievable. We were there for 4 hours. I can't even describe how amazing it was. Another good one in that area is the Mustard Seed Cafe.

As far as San Francisco, there is nothing like going out to dinner or out to clubs in that city. I don't think there's a better city in the US for going out at night.[/QUOTE]

We scoff at how presumptuous restaurants can be, particularly French restaurants, but French Laundry really delivers. Still, I bear guilt over feeling this way. Maybe partly because it's French and partly because it seems like a yuppy, french, snobbish, french thing. I can't quite put my finger on it.

By the way, because this thread interweaves discussion of both Cuisine and Religous Zealotry, it's becoming one of my favorites. I tried to combine the discussions, but it isn't that easy.

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc] Then Mustard's Grill, those are my faves.[/QUOTE]

In my home town, there's a hot dog stand called "Mustard's Last Stand." Maybe the same owner?

[QUOTE=SoonerBS]Haven't you guys ever heard of the $1 menu at McDonald's? Hell, I live off McChicken sandwiches . . . . . .[/QUOTE]

The $1 menu is fantastic. I usually get the McDouble or the McChicken. Lately I've been going to some other places and have found that Burger King has the best dollar menu. I have two kids and once in awhile I let them eat fast food. You can get a double cheeseburger (pretty good sized burger) for $1 or you can get chicken tenders for $1. I think the best deal I've seen is 10 crunchy tacos at Taco Bell for $8.99. You can mix it up as well. For example, you could get 3 bean burritos, 3 crunchy tacos and 4 soft tacos. The combinations are limitless and is truly staggering to the imagination.

[QUOTE=Home-slicer]In my home town, there's a hot dog stand called "Mustard's Last Stand." Maybe the same owner?[/QUOTE]

Maybe. Do they serve the hotdogs through gloryholes?

[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Maybe. Do they serve the hotdogs through gloryholes?[/QUOTE]

I always wondered why they advertised a "sting-less" Dijon. Fascinating.

[QUOTE=Home-slicer]I always wondered why they advertised a "sting-less" Dijon. Fascinating.[/QUOTE]


And why one of the condiments is spermicide. Isn't it great when everything starts to make sense?

[QUOTE=famousdavis]First you'd have to define the meaning of "proof". I can tell you this...for whatever reason I do know God's will vs. my own will. How I know that I have no idea. I don't belong to any kind of organized religion but I have become spiritual over the last 3 years. My own will is usually very self centered and involves me doing whatever I want to please myself. If I choose my will over God's I usually end up doing things that appear at first to be self gratifying but in the end they make me depressed and lonely. However, [B]if I try to follow what I consider to be God's will (helping others, being nice to people, being honest and being grateful) at the end of the day I feel incredibly happy[/B]. If I ask a human being to help me with a decision I may get 100 different responses based on who I ask. [B]If I ask what God would have me do I immediately know the right answer[/B]. I'm not saying that I hear some voice from above. I don't. I think we all know right from wrong because there is a God and when we seek Him with good intentions our lives get better. Again, this has nothing to do with religion.[/QUOTE]

Hey Famous I've been meaning to ask you. When you write those reviews telling everyone that you are the worlds greatest ballstriker, we had better sit up and take notice, these irons aren't good enough for your game etc etc

Is that you typing those words or is God guiding you?

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Hey Famous I've been meaning to ask you. When you write those reviews telling everyone that you are the worlds greatest ballstriker, we had better sit up and take notice, these irons aren't good enough for your game etc etc

Is that you typing those words or is God guiding you?[/QUOTE]

As Benjamin Franklin famously (?) said, "the Lord helps those who help themselves"....

:D

FD,

Feeling good about doing good deeds is not proof of God. Maybe it's just that you have a moral compass and your life has less meaning when you aren't helping others or doing good things. I'm sure psychologists could explain the reasons for this feeling in more detail, but bottom line it's physiological not spiritual.

Dave they say the fastest way to ruin a friendship is to bring religion,politics or money into it....Its always been my belief that you don't need a church to know the difference between right and wrong,but I would defend your right to have what beliefs you choose,after all is that not democracy was based upon.....good luck on the links dano...

[QUOTE=famousdavis]Spank, my folks bought my wife and I a dinner at French Laundry for our anniversary. If you have the means you must try it someday. Unbelievable. We were there for 4 hours. I can't even describe how amazing it was. Another good one in that area is the Mustard Seed Cafe.

As far as San Francisco, there is nothing like going out to dinner or out to clubs in that city. I don't think there's a better city in the US for going out at night.[/QUOTE]

No, French Laundry is something I will do, but probably with closer to 10 people, not just my wife and myself; that will make the 4 hours pass by much quicker, but I know what you are saying; we like company now. So much great food in the area.

I have high respect for Laundry, and will go someday...

My wife and I ate at Gary Danko a month ago; that was really good, actually; they have a Michelin star: [url]http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-10-03/news/17318006_1_france-s-michelin-guide-chez-panisse-restaurants[/url]

Here are couple of thousand reviews: [url]http://www.yelp.com/biz/gary-danko-san-francisco[/url]

I am telling you, Redd is good, and you and your wife can eat like kings, for perhaps $200.

I am still really angry with Michael Keller's "Ad Hoc restaurant," however. You cannot choose what you wish to eat. They have a set menu, so I got stuck with Iceberg lettuce and fried chicken...

As a black man, I am offended. It wasn't good either; I would have been happier with a 3 piece, Kentucky Fried Chicken meal.

[QUOTE=famousdavis]"Just facts. Just reality. Happens every day over here, millions per year."

That's what you said...millions. The thousand or so abortions stated in the information I provided were for late term. That doesn't mean that a doctor induced birth and then poked the skull with a pair of scissors and vacuumed out the brain as you said. Why don't you show us the statistics of the abortions that are performed in that very way? Because you can't. You used an example of something that is extremely rare to make your point yet you stated that millions of them occur every year. You used an extreme example as a way to define abortion and therefore distorted the truth. There you go.[/QUOTE]

i think the point is being missed... it is killing regardless of when it happens, after the moment of conception if you choose to stop the pregnancy it is killing a life....

you accuse dave of using extreme examples, yet you cite extreme examples such as rape, incest, and harm to the mother for reasons for abortion... so you distort the truth by your own standards

[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Hey Famous I've been meaning to ask you. When you write those reviews telling everyone that you are the worlds greatest ballstriker, we had better sit up and take notice, these irons aren't good enough for your game etc etc

Is that you typing those words or is God guiding you?[/QUOTE]

That would be me guiding myself....see how that gets me in trouble?

[QUOTE=pingman360]i think the point is being missed... it is killing regardless of when it happens, after the moment of conception if you choose to stop the pregnancy it is killing a life....

you accuse dave of using extreme examples, yet you cite extreme examples such as rape, incest, and harm to the mother for reasons for abortion... so you distort the truth by your own standards[/QUOTE]


I think you're looking at someone else's writing because I never brought up anything about rape or anything else you state above. I only commented on Dave's point and didn't say anything about what you mention above in regard to extreme examples in favor of abortion.

[QUOTE=Not a hacker]FD,

Feeling good about doing good deeds is not proof of God. Maybe it's just that you have a moral compass and your life has less meaning when you aren't helping others or doing good things. I'm sure psychologists could explain the reasons for this feeling in more detail, but bottom line it's physiological not spiritual.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. I said that when I try to live through God's will instead of my own will my life gets better and is more fullfilled and I, in turn, am happier. You're right that there is no proof because there never is a way to prove that God exists. I'd rather not discuss it anymore because it's an argument that will never be finalized. You can say that means I lose and that's fine.

Boss,
If you're still us after all this, I wish you well this weekend. May the Lord, or the Force, or the Source be with you.

[QUOTE=jearliff]Boss,
If you're still us after all this, I wish you well this weekend. May the Lord, or the Force, or the Source be with you.[/QUOTE]

Since Boss had no overdeveloped need to always be right, the liklihood is the latter two.

God bless the BBC and God bless Jerry Springer The Opera.

It could ONLY be shown in the UK

Pick the irony out of that boys

Edgey

[QUOTE=edgey]God bless the BBC and God bless Jerry Springer The Opera.

It could ONLY be shown in the UK

Pick the irony out of that boys

Edgey[/QUOTE]

And God Bless Malcolm McClaren. May his soul RIP.

I'm sure he would have approved of Jerry Springer The Opera.

Speaking of which SWMBO wants us to attend a show whilst we are in London which I am vehemently opposed to. Maybe Jerry Springer The Opera could fit the bill?

I heard an associate say of Malcom McClaron that he will hardly recieve a state funeral. I don't think johnny was a bid fan either.