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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]Moron. There obviously is a minimum level of intelligence for golf. Duh. This is the SAME PRO helping me after I took it up steep to drop it under instead of starting with shoulders AGAIN.[/quote]
But you told us just the other day that this pro told you taking it up steep wasn't the way...
[quote]Take a lesson. LISTEN to what the pro teaches.[/QUOTE]
Come out on the course and I'll give you a lesson...
...in humility.
:)
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIUC9S0z0bY[/url]
Watch my pro gently hold my club back to allow my lower body to start first-- When I swing I bring the club "down and under" and the shaft is aligned with my left forearm-- ideal!
Larry[/QUOTE]
Larry, you're not using "club" as a metaphor here are you? If so please don't post a video.
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]Moron. There obviously is a minimum level of intelligence for golf. Duh. This is the SAME PRO helping me after I took it up steep to drop it under instead of starting with shoulders AGAIN.
Take a lesson. LISTEN to what the pro teaches.
Larry[/QUOTE]
Really moron? Speaking of intelligence, your posts of your lessons remind me of my dog chasing his tail. You really have no clue when you're getting close. You just go round and round from lesson to lesson, pro to pro, shelling out money trying to buy a swing. You really should give up golf and take up horseshoes or shuffleboard.
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Shouldn't the clubhead be on that line or slightly above it, not several inches below it?
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[quote=poe4soul]Really moron? Speaking of intelligence, your posts of your lessons remind me of my dog chasing his tail. You really have no clue when you're getting close. You just go round and round from lesson to lesson, pro to pro, shelling out money trying to buy a swing. You really should give up golf and take up horseshoes or shuffleboard.[/quote]
Hey, what's wrong with horseshoes and shuffleboard. I could play both of those games for hours on end. When it comes to horseshoes, I'm the ringer master! However, I will only play with cast, tumble-finish horseshoes made from Karsten.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]Hey, what's wrong with horseshoes and shuffleboard. I could play both of those games for hours on end. When it comes to horseshoes, I'm the ringer master! However, I will only play with cast, tumble-finish horseshoes made from Karsten.[/QUOTE]
Nothing. I'm just beating him to his next line of golf is a game just like darts, horseshoes and shuffleboard.
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[QUOTE=Mward2002]Shouldn't the clubhead be on that line or slightly above it, not several inches below it?[/QUOTE]
Downswinging on the swing plane or slightly below is ideal, apparently, because the pros seem to strive to keep it below and bring it from the inside.
It is interesting to observe in ourselves and learn from the teaching pros about what seems to trigger what in the developing golf swing. For instance having the arms fully extended and in sync with the torso, hands in front of the chest during the backswing tends to promote starting the downswing with the weight shift to the front leg, the hips turning toward the target, i.e. the elusive transition weight shift that is almost impossible for most amateurs. Shawn Clement says the weight of the arms which must be counterbalanced by the hips promotes the natural shifting of the hips toward the target. But it only works if the arms are extended; if they are collapsed with elbows bent, it doesn't work. If the arms were allowed to "run away" out of sync with the shoulders, it doesn't work.
So we encounter cascading errors. When the arms are not extended and the weight shift to the front leg does not occur, the golfer will inevitably start with shoulders, bringing the club steeply from behind him OVER the swing plane, and "over the top" to swipe across the ball from outside to in. Most amateurs NEVER learn to swing other than that.
So seemingly unimportant errors cause VERY important errors that prevent a golfer from hitting fairways and greens.
This is why it is so vitally important to take lessons if you really care about playing golf well.
Larry
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When most instructors now don't know the difference between new ball flight laws and old, I'm not really too keen on taking lessons from a person who doesn't know what makes the ball do what.
Side note: Taking the two extemes, I'd rather be OTT than under plane. You can play with an OTT move (Jeev Milka Singh, Miguel Angel Jimenez, Craig Perry) than someone who's under plane and has a two way miss. At least you know what a pull fade is going to do. You have no clue what a snap hook will do other than roll a lot upon landing.
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[QUOTE=Mward2002]When most instructors now don't know the difference between new ball flight laws and old, I'm not really too keen on taking lessons from a person who doesn't know what makes the ball do what.
Side note: Taking the two extemes, I'd rather be OTT than under plane. You can play with an OTT move (Jeev Milka Singh, Miguel Angel Jimenez, Craig Perry) than someone who's under plane and has a two way miss. At least you know what a pull fade is going to do. You have no clue what a snap hook will do other than roll a lot upon landing.[/QUOTE]
You raise a very valid point in relation to professional instruction. Thee are lots of old lazy pros around who got their teaching quals 20 or 30 years ago or more, and so teach old methods with no interest in actually learning any other way to swing than the way they learnt back in the golfing dark ages. Most of these old school pros also think there is only one way to swing, the way they do, no matter what body shape, strength, flexibility, athletic talent etc you have. It's just a one swing fits all. And most of the golf clubs in my part of the world have these old lazy bums, who have been in the same pro shop for 30 years and monopolise the lesson bookings, not allowing the trainee or assistant pro to do any lessons on their patch. So even if the younger guys are better teachers, you don't get a chance to take lessons from them. I have always said that it's a good idea to learn the fundamentals from a golf pro, but even then it's dangerous as the grip has changed slightly and some of the old pros may try to teach you to grip it too weak. I honestly think once you have had enough lessons to get the fundamentals down, you can actually learn from magazines and the net, and digging a swing out of the dirt. Obviously a good teaching pro is the best way to improve your game, but good teachers aren't that easy to find and a bad teaching pro can do some serious damage.
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[quote=Not a hacker]You raise a very valid point in relation to professional instruction. Thee are lots of old lazy pros around who got their teaching quals 20 or 30 years ago or more, and so teach old methods with no interest in actually learning any other way to swing than the way they learnt back in the golfing dark ages. Most of these old school pros also think there is only one way to swing, the way they do, no matter what body shape, strength, flexibility, athletic talent etc you have. It's just a one swing fits all. And most of the golf clubs in my part of the world have these old lazy bums, who have been in the same pro shop for 30 years and monopolise the lesson bookings, not allowing the trainee or assistant pro to do any lessons on their patch. So even if the younger guys are better teachers, you don't get a chance to take lessons from them. I have always said that it's a good idea to learn the fundamentals from a golf pro, but even then it's dangerous as the grip has changed slightly and some of the old pros may try to teach you to grip it too weak. I honestly think once you have had enough lessons to get the fundamentals down, you can actually learn from magazines and the net, and digging a swing out of the dirt. Obviously a good teaching pro is the best way to improve your game, but good teachers aren't that easy to find and a bad teaching pro can do some serious damage.[/quote]
Sometimes I'll be at the driving range and I'll overhear a PGA professional giving a lesson to someone. Most of the time I hear these guys go on and on and talk incessently. I can only imagine how confused the student must be. I've even seen a pro start hitting shots himself to show the student how to hit the ball. It went on a little too long and you could tell the guy was showing off.
A good instructor will show you a few fundamental things you need to change and then let you work on them. The guy who keeps talking is the one to avoid.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]Sometimes I'll be at the driving range and I'll overhear a PGA professional giving a lesson to someone. Most of the time I hear these guys go on and on and talk incessently. I can only imagine how confused the student must be. I've even seen a pro start hitting shots himself to show the student how to hit the ball. It went on a little too long and you could tell the guy was showing off.
A good instructor will show you a few fundamental things you need to change and then let you work on them. The guy who keeps talking is the one to avoid.[/QUOTE]
A good teacher will never hit balls during a lesson. They know that students are paying by the half hour and don't appreciate their time wasted by watching them hit shots. If I had a lesson and the pro hit shots himself I wouldn't be going back.
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[quote=Not a hacker]A good teacher will never hit balls during a lesson. They know that students are paying by the half hour and don't appreciate their time wasted by watching them hit shots. If I had a lesson and the pro hit shots himself I wouldn't be going back.[/quote]
I'd kick him in the nuts and say "how do you like THAT leg action!".
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Well, I would want to ensure that my teacher can play himself. "Them that can't-Teach" may be the deal if you are taking a lesson from a Tina Mickelson who is a 15 handicap or worse. The pros where I take lessons play in local pro tournaments and are ++++handicappers. They can play--and if need be they can show a student how to hit it--and that they can hit it.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YsvRfgLP3w[/url]
Kevin had only an OLD forged blade ONE iron out on the range. I asked him to hit one for the camera and here it is. No warmup swings, just nails it 240+. When someone who can do that talks, I listen. It is called "credibility!"
Larry
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[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s40H_7lBeSs&feature=related[/url]
Watch Hogan. Notice where the club shaft appears on his right arm during the downswing. If it is on or near the swing plane, it will appear between shoulder and elbow. Ideal is aligned with the right forearm. Hogan was ideal. Hence every pro at the time and since has admired and imitated him.
Larry
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s40H_7lBeSs&feature=related[/url]
Watch Hogan. Notice where the club shaft appears on his right arm during the downswing. If it is on or near the swing plane, it will appear between shoulder and elbow. Ideal is aligned with the right forearm. Hogan was ideal. Hence every pro at the time and since has admired and imitated him.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, Larry: you should watch Hogan.
Because you're not doing anything remotely like him.
Note that Hogan doesn't take the club back "nearly vertical": he takes it back pretty much on the plane on which he intends to swing the club back down.
Note that Hogan doesn't go through the strange body contortions you do.
You [I]might[/I] learn something...
...but I very much doubt it.
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]Well, I would want to ensure that my teacher can play himself. "Them that can't-Teach" may be the deal if you are taking a lesson from a Tina Mickelson who is a 15 handicap or worse. The pros where I take lessons play in local pro tournaments and are ++++handicappers. They can play--and if need be they can show a student how to hit it--and that they can hit it. [/quote]
And for some reason, you throw in a gratuitous insult to Tina Mickelson.
Tell you what Larry: I'll put up $1,000 on a match between you and Tina straight up.
Are you feeling "froggy" yet?
[quote][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YsvRfgLP3w[/url]
Kevin had only an OLD forged blade ONE iron out on the range. I asked him to hit one for the camera and here it is. No warmup swings, just nails it 240+. When someone who can do that talks, I listen. It is called "credibility!"[/QUOTE]
And yet, Kevin is no longer your instructor, because, despite telling us all "it's working", you now admit his instruction wasn't working for you....
It is called "credibility", but you don't have any.
:)
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]This is why it is so vitally important to take lessons if you really care about playing golf well.[/QUOTE]
Given that you have taken hundreds of lessons and still can't break 90 for real...
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]Well, I would want to ensure that my teacher can play himself. "Them that can't-Teach" may be the deal if you are taking a lesson from a Tina Mickelson who is a 15 handicap or worse. The pros where I take lessons play in local pro tournaments and are ++++handicappers. They can play--and if need be they can show a student how to hit it--and that they can hit it.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YsvRfgLP3w[/url]
[B]Kevin had only an OLD forged blade ONE iron out on the range. I asked him to hit one for the camera and here it is. No warmup swings, just nails it 240+. When someone who can do that talks, I listen. It is called "credibility!"[/B]
Larry[/QUOTE]
Are you serious Larry? That guy has a terrible swing. He looks very stiff and restricted trying to get through the ball. My good swings would be way batter than that one. 240+ my arse.
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[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Are you serious Larry? That guy has a terrible swing. He looks very stiff and restricted trying to get through the ball. My good swings would be way batter than that one. 240+ my arse.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, right. Hogan woud have won 200 tournaments if he had not been so severely injured in that bus crash. He is undoubted the best who ever played our game.
Larry
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]Yeah, right. Hogan woud have won 200 tournaments if he had not been so severely injured in that bus crash. He is undoubted the best who ever played our game.
Larry[/QUOTE]
Larry, I think you may have been meaning to respond to Alan's post and responded to me by mistake. This post has no relevance whatsoever to my post.
P.S. When are you gonna put your money where your mouth is and take up Alan on his challenge? Surely to an unemplyed guy living in his mother's basement $1,000 would be a lot of cash. Maybe if you took him up and beat him, the financial loss would ruin him and force him to disconnect the internet.
P.P.S. Despite being asked the question numerous times, you have so far failed to let Alan know if you are feeling froggy yet. I would appreciate it if you had the courtesy to answer him.
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[quote=Larryrsf]Yeah, right. Hogan woud have won 200 tournaments if he had not been so severely injured in that bus crash. He is undoubted the best who ever played our game.
Larry[/quote]
Nicklaus was better than Hogan but probably the most talented player ever was Bobby Jones.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]Nicklaus was better than Hogan but probably the most talented player ever was Bobby Jones.[/QUOTE]
Obviously the most talented is Tiger, but yeah Nicklaus did have more game than Hogan.
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[quote=The Purist]Obviously the most talented is Tiger, but yeah Nicklaus did have more game than Hogan.[/quote]
I don't think that's obvious at all. Go find some tapes of some of the majors that Nicklaus won. He was incredible when the pressure was on. I think if you put Tiger in his prime against Nicklaus in his prime that Nicklaus would win more matches. It's hard to compare the two because of equipment. When Nicklaus was in his prime he was 5-11, 200 pounds and an incredible athlete. Much more of an athlete than Tiger Woods.
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[QUOTE=Not a hacker]Larry, I think you may have been meaning to respond to Alan's post and responded to me by mistake. This post has no relevance whatsoever to my post.
P.S. When are you gonna put your money where your mouth is and take up Alan on his challenge? Surely to an unemplyed guy living in his mother's basement $1,000 would be a lot of cash. Maybe if you took him up and beat him, the financial loss would ruin him and force him to disconnect the internet.
P.P.S. Despite being asked the question numerous times, you have so far failed to let Alan know if you are feeling froggy yet. I would appreciate it if you had the courtesy to answer him.[/QUOTE]
AB has been saying that for years in other forums. Every time I or anyone takes him up on his wager offers, he quibbles and bails out. So everyone (except a few newbys in this forum) ignores him. Wise up, save bandwidth, do the same.
Larry
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]I don't think that's obvious at all. Go find some tapes of some of the majors that Nicklaus won. He was incredible when the pressure was on. I think if you put Tiger in his prime against Nicklaus in his prime that Nicklaus would win more matches. It's hard to compare the two because of equipment. When Nicklaus was in his prime he was 5-11, 200 pounds and an incredible athlete. Much more of an athlete than Tiger Woods.[/QUOTE]
McLean and others who have extensively studied them say that Hogan was the best of the best, better than anyone who ever played. Better than Nicklaus and better than Jones. Hogan won nearly 100 tournaments, but if he had not been so severly injured, he would have won 200 tournaments, double the number that Snead and others won. In his day, nobody was even close. Hogan was the best from tee-to-green and also the best putter. He could play in the trees or on wind blown South Texas hardpan. He was the best player in Scotland and around the world. He was simply unbeatable on any course anywhere for many years--even though he had to walk and swing in great pain from his mangled legs.
Larry
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s40H_7lBeSs&feature=related[/url]
Watch Hogan. Notice where the club shaft appears on his right arm during the downswing. If it is on or near the swing plane, it will appear between shoulder and elbow. Ideal is aligned with the right forearm. Hogan was ideal. Hence every pro at the time and since has admired and imitated him.
Larry[/QUOTE]
Hogan's only real secret was that you have to work your ass off. That's his secret.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]I don't think that's obvious at all. Go find some tapes of some of the majors that Nicklaus won. He was incredible when the pressure was on. I think if you put Tiger in his prime against Nicklaus in his prime that Nicklaus would win more matches. It's hard to compare the two because of equipment. When Nicklaus was in his prime he was 5-11, 200 pounds and an incredible athlete. Much more of an athlete than Tiger Woods.[/QUOTE]
Tiger had the highest swing speed on tour, back when he weighed 150 lbs. Better swing speed equals better athlete in golf.
Tiger and Nicklaus in their primes were both elite putters, game managers, and GIR finders. Jack was more consistent with the driver, but I still give the edge to Tiger because of his short game.
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[QUOTE=Mward2002]Hogan's only real secret was that you have to work your ass off. That's his secret.[/QUOTE]
Yep, and we must remember that he did it without video nor solid instruction that totally agrees on the golf swing. In Hogan's early days there were many equally "correct" ways to swing a golf club, according to Harvey Penick, there was at least one amateur champion down in Texas who gripped the club cross-handed! Why not imitate him? So it was a wonder when a Hogan could discard all those plausible distractions and focus on what he stubbornly believed was the best way. When Hogan wrote the series of articles that became "5 Lessons," he was bravely choosing and then winning tournaments with ONE grip style (Vardon) and ONE swing method--while rejecting all the others of that day--many of which had strong advocates. All his contemporary competitors (Snead, Nelson, et. al) abandoned whatever they were doing and imitated Hogan, knowing his method was their only hope of scoring against him.
In contrast, we are lucky that today there is NO DOUBT about the fundamentals. We KNOW what we should do, so a student knows he is on the right path if he takes lessons from a PGA pro. They all teach the same thing.
BTW, studying and imitating Hogan was always and remains the thing to do. Nick Price, Faldo, and many others were said to have carried a copy of "5 Lessons" in their golf bags. Ricky Fowler, Sergio, and other upcoming champions look much like Hogan in their swing. They all borrow at least parts of what Hogan developed.
Larry
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[quote=Larryrsf]Yep, and we must remember that he did it without video nor solid instruction that totally agrees on the golf swing. In Hogan's early days there were many equally "correct" ways to swing a golf club, according to Harvey Penick, there was at least one amateur champion down in Texas who gripped the club cross-handed! Why not imitate him? So it was a wonder when a Hogan could discard all those plausible distractions and focus on what he stubbornly believed was the best way. When Hogan wrote the series of articles that became "5 Lessons," he was bravely choosing and then winning tournaments with ONE grip style (Vardon) and ONE swing method--while rejecting all the others of that day--many of which had strong advocates. All his contemporary competitors (Snead, Nelson, et. al) abandoned whatever they were doing and imitated Hogan, knowing his method was their only hope of scoring against him.
In contrast, we are lucky that today there is NO DOUBT about the fundamentals. We KNOW what we should do, so a student knows he is on the right path if he takes lessons from a PGA pro. They all teach the same thing.
BTW, studying and imitating Hogan was always and remains the thing to do. Nick Price, Faldo, and many others were said to have carried a copy of "5 Lessons" in their golf bags. Ricky Fowler, Sergio, and other upcoming champions look much like Hogan in their swing. They all borrow at least parts of what Hogan developed.
Larry[/quote]
Nicklaus is the best of the best. He has a much better record than Hogan. Nickluas has 73 PGA tour wins vs. Hogan's 64 and Nicklaus has 18 major wins vs. Hogan's 9.
There is no disputing that Nicklaus was a better player and has a better record than Hogan. Sure, you can try to guess as to what Hogan would have done if he were not injured but I like to live in the real world, not fantasyland. I suggest you do the same for once.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]Nicklaus is the best of the best. He has a much better record than Hogan. Nickluas has 73 PGA tour wins vs. Hogan's 64 and Nicklaus has 18 major wins vs. Hogan's 9.
There is no disputing that Nicklaus was a better player and has a better record than Hogan. Sure, you can try to guess as to what Hogan would have done if he were not injured but I like to live in the real world, not fantasyland. I suggest you do the same for once.[/QUOTE]
Hogan was a s.hit player until he learned to quit hooking the ball.
Also, Hogan's swing and style.. Really only worked for Hogan. You can emulate parts of his swing, but you'll never be able to swing exactly like him. It's foolish to try and break down your swing to be exactly like his unless you have the exact same body type, height, flexibility, etc. The odds are you don't. Hit it, find it and hit it again, then go make a putt or two.
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[quote=Mward2002]Hogan was a s.hit player until he learned to quit hooking the ball.
Also, Hogan's swing and style.. Really only worked for Hogan. You can emulate parts of his swing, but you'll never be able to swing exactly like him. It's foolish to try and break down your swing to be exactly like his unless you have the exact same body type, height, flexibility, etc. The odds are you don't. Hit it, find it and hit it again, then go make a putt or two.[/quote]
Yep, and most tour pros agree that it's crazy to try and teach someone Hogan's swing. He threw the club open on the backswing, had a weak grip and slashed through the ball. Most people can't do that.
One of the best swings of all time was Greg Norman in his prime. Most pros agree that he was the best driver of the ball hands down. With today's equipment he'd be one of the longest hitters on tour with accuracy. Norman would beat Hogan any day of the week.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]Yep, and most tour pros agree that it's crazy to try and teach someone Hogan's swing. He threw the club open on the backswing, had a weak grip and slashed through the ball. Most people can't do that.
One of the best swings of all time was Greg Norman in his prime. Most pros agree that he was the best driver of the ball hands down. With today's equipment he'd be one of the longest hitters on tour with accuracy. Norman would beat Hogan any day of the week.[/QUOTE]
His game was legendary for 3 rounds. His final round chokings are more legendary. Adult film stars are even in awe.
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[QUOTE=Mward2002]Hogan was a s.hit player until he learned to quit hooking the ball.
Also, Hogan's swing and style.. Really only worked for Hogan. You can emulate parts of his swing, but you'll never be able to swing exactly like him. It's foolish to try and break down your swing to be exactly like his unless you have the exact same body type, height, flexibility, etc. The odds are you don't. Hit it, find it and hit it again, then go make a putt or two.[/QUOTE]
Of course, and I said that. But PGA pros have taught and the best players have borrowed portions of Hogan's grip, setup, and swing since the 50s. They aspire to make certain moves as well as Hogan did. His swing plane was the envy of every good player. McClean said Hogan had the best transition weight shift then or now. His ball striking was so precise that on individual courses he could leave certain irons in his trunk, knowing there would not be a requirement to hit a 6i that day, for instance. His impact position is a thing of beauty, also to be copied in detail.
larry
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]Nicklaus is the best of the best. He has a much better record than Hogan. Nickluas has 73 PGA tour wins vs. Hogan's 64 and Nicklaus has 18 major wins vs. Hogan's 9.
There is no disputing that Nicklaus was a better player and has a better record than Hogan. Sure, you can try to guess as to what Hogan would have done if he were not injured but I like to live in the real world, not fantasyland. I suggest you do the same for once.[/QUOTE]
Or you could ask Nicklaus, who has said many times that Hogan was the best.
It is not fair to compare either total tournaments won or Majors won then and now-- for instance the PGA conflicted with the British Open for years during Hogan's prime-- players had to choose to play in one or the other. Also international travel was very cumbersome and somewhat dangerous in old prop planes that could not fly over storms.
Larry
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]Nicklaus is the best of the best. He has a much better record than Hogan. Nickluas has 73 PGA tour wins vs. Hogan's 64 and Nicklaus has 18 major wins vs. Hogan's 9.
There is no disputing that Nicklaus was a better player and has a better record than Hogan. Sure, you can try to guess as to what Hogan would have done if he were not injured but I like to live in the real world, not fantasyland. I suggest you do the same for once.[/QUOTE]
Notice that NO PGA pros teach Nicklaus' swing, not even individual portions. In contrast, they all teach Hogan's grip, setup, early backswing, and transition weight shift. Hogan's ideal impact position is taught everywhere, pros want students to learn to put themselves in that static position in front of a mirror or with eyes closed.
There is a good reason Hogan's swing clips dominate the WWW. There are hundreds and hundreds of clips available for study.
Larry
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]AB has been saying that for years in other forums. Every time I or anyone takes him up on his wager offers, he quibbles and bails out. So everyone (except a few newbys in this forum) ignores him. Wise up, save bandwidth, do the same.[/QUOTE]
If you had even average intelligence, you'd be able to offer up quotes of such "bailing out", if they existed.
So either they don't exist, or you're a moron...
...or of course, both!
:)
The only quibbling and bailing there has ever been is all yours, Larry. You're the one who agreed to play "straight up" and imagined that that meant that you got to take your handicap strokes.
I expect to be completely at leisure some time in 2011. I'm planning a full year off. I offer you hear and now a match for $5,000. One round of golf at match play, straight up (you do now know what that means) at your home course, or any other course you choose; date to be determined later.
What do you say? Are you feeling "froggy" again yet?
:D
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]BTW, studying and imitating Hogan was always and remains the thing to do. Nick Price, Faldo, and many others were said to have carried a copy of "5 Lessons" in their golf bags. Ricky Fowler, Sergio, and other upcoming champions look much like Hogan in their swing. They all borrow at least parts of what Hogan developed.[/QUOTE]
After claiming that Ricky Fowler takes the club up "nearly vertical" and then loops it, how do you have the gall to claim that his swing "look[s] much like Hogan", one of the flattest swingers around?
Please, Larry: explain this apparent contradiction...
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]here is a good reason Hogan's swing clips dominate the WWW.[/QUOTE]
There's no one who'll complain and get them taken down for copyright infringement...
...like a certain website....
...pivotforsomething...
:)
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[quote=Larryrsf]Notice that NO PGA pros teach Nicklaus' swing, not even individual portions. In contrast, they all teach Hogan's grip, setup, early backswing, and transition weight shift. Hogan's ideal impact position is taught everywhere, pros want students to learn to put themselves in that static position in front of a mirror or with eyes closed.
There is a good reason Hogan's swing clips dominate the WWW. There are hundreds and hundreds of clips available for study.
Larry[/quote]
You would expect the swing of the best player to ever live to be unique and hard to copy. I'm simply stating the obvious fact that Nicklaus is the best player to ever have lived because of his accomplishments. This is the real world and we're not living by "should have's" or "could have's". Maybe that's how you lead you life but I live mine in reality and through honesty.
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[QUOTE=The Purist]Obviously the most talented is Tiger, but yeah Nicklaus did have more game than Hogan.[/QUOTE]
Nicklaus's nads were more under control. Trust me, you don't know what it's like.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]You would expect the swing of the best player to ever live to be unique and hard to copy. I'm simply stating the obvious fact that Nicklaus is the best player to ever have lived because of his accomplishments. This is the real world and we're not living by "should have's" or "could have's". Maybe that's how you lead you life but I live mine in reality and through honesty.[/QUOTE]
Larry doesn't know any other way.
Reality according to Larry:
The transition weight shift (or flattening the shaft, or turning in a barrel, or swing the clubhead, or, or, ...) is the "SECRET" and since he [I]should[/I] be able to do it with practice, then in "reality" he [I][B]IS[/B][/I] doing it.
And since if you do it, you [I]should[/I] "hit all the fairways", then "reality", he [B][I]IS[/I][/B] doing it.
And if that means you have to cheat on your scorecard (or give up keeping score altogether) in order to keep it "real", then that's a sacrifice Larry is willing to make...
...because Larry is all about doing "Whatever it takes!" :thumbsup:
:D
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I think the stat is akin to less then 1% of all golfers is scratch. It simply boggles the mind that a inordinate amount of these ‘less then 1% ers frequent this site. While Larry maybe off his rocker given some of the other ’swing’ insights uttered by some on this site I would venture to say that Larry does not quite own the copyright for BS on this site yet. What is funnier still is to listen to folks who have more knowledge then a certified PGA Pro. SO for the folks like Qtong who are looking to improve do yourself a favor and see a reputable PGA Pro and forget what you see on this site as well as, television, books, magazines, etc.
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I think the stat is akin to less then 1% of all golfers is scratch. It simply boggles the mind that a inordinate amount o these ‘less then 1% ers frequent this site. While Larry maybe off his rocker given some of the other ’swing’ insights uttered by some on this site I would venture to say that Larry does not quite own the copyright for BS on this site yet. What is funnier still is to listen to folks who have more knowledge then a certified PGA Pro. SO for the folks like Qtong who are looking to improve do yourself a favor and see a reputable PGA Pro and forget what you see on this site as well as, television, books, magazines, etc.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]Yep, and most tour pros agree that it's crazy to try and teach someone Hogan's swing. He threw the club open on the backswing, had a weak grip and slashed through the ball. Most people can't do that.
One of the best swings of all time was Greg Norman in his prime. Most pros agree that he was the best driver of the ball hands down. With today's equipment he'd be one of the longest hitters on tour with accuracy. Norman would beat Hogan any day of the week.[/QUOTE]
Norman was hands down the greatest driver of the ball in history, and posiibly the best long iron player. Back in the days of rubbery wound balls and tiny persimmon headed drivers with 43 inch steel shafts, he was hitting genuine 300 yard bombs down the pipe all day long. His driving was so far ahead of everyone else it wasn't funny. He would mop the floor with a short knocker bum like Hogan. Norman could also work the ball better than just about anyone, and in his prime had a supreme short game. The only thing that let him down was choking on Sundays. If he had Tiger's or Fat Jack's mental toughness he would have won more majors than either of them. But for mine Tiger has the most talent, he has the same athletic and bal striking prowess as Norman except for the driver, has a batter short game than Norman or Jack, and has more mental strength than anyone in the history of the game. For everyone who bangs on about Jack being the best, he was more likely the most consistent. Unlike Norman and Tiger, Jack was not consistently the best player in the world. Guys like Miller, Watson and Trevino all dominated Fatboy for short periods, but Jack outlasted them. Even Seve's best golf was beter than Jack could dream of. If all the greats played at their peak in the same tournaments for a year, Tiger would win the most, and Norman would hold the most Saturday clubhouse leads. And Hogan and Nicklaus would be lucky to grab a top 10.
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[quote=Not a hacker]Norman was hands down the greatest driver of the ball in history, and posiibly the best long iron player. Back in the days of rubbery wound balls and tiny persimmon headed drivers with 43 inch steel shafts, he was hitting genuine 300 yard bombs down the pipe all day long. His driving was so far ahead of everyone else it wasn't funny. He would mop the floor with a short knocker bum like Hogan. Norman could also work the ball better than just about anyone, and in his prime had a supreme short game. The only thing that let him down was choking on Sundays. If he had Tiger's or Fat Jack's mental toughness he would have won more majors than either of them. But for mine Tiger has the most talent, he has the same athletic and bal striking prowess as Norman except for the driver, has a batter short game than Norman or Jack, and has more mental strength than anyone in the history of the game. For everyone who bangs on about Jack being the best, he was more likely the most consistent. Unlike Norman and Tiger, Jack was not consistently the best player in the world. Guys like Miller, Watson and Trevino all dominated Fatboy for short periods, but Jack outlasted them. Even Seve's best golf was beter than Jack could dream of. If all the greats played at their peak in the same tournaments for a year, Tiger would win the most, and Norman would hold the most Saturday clubhouse leads. And Hogan and Nicklaus would be lucky to grab a top 10.[/quote]
I think Norman had a combination of choking and being jinxed. I mean, those guys that holed out on him went on to do nothing. I've watched a few of the old major tournaments that Nicklaus won and I think his confidence would easily rival Tiger's. Hogan was an incredible player, especially for his size.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]I think Norman had a combination of choking and being jinxed. I mean, those guys that holed out on him went on to do nothing. I've watched a few of the old major tournaments that Nicklaus won and I think his confidence would easily rival Tiger's. Hogan was an incredible player, especially for his size.[/QUOTE]
I've mentioned on other threads about the old saying that was often mentioned about Norman that once you're snake bit, you're always snake bit. Everyone thinks back on rounds here and there where some bad breaks have cost you a win, but Norman takes it beyond anything any golfer has ever had to experience. Most people would be gibbering basket cases if they had to go through what he went through. The back to back majors stolen by unbelieveable chip ins from the bunker and an impossible up and down from off the green at the 86 PGA and 87 Masters were the writing on the wall for the Shark, he should have saved himself some pain and put the clubs away and gone into business right there.
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I think (in fact I know) that golfers at the elite level think the difference between them is putting. They think they all drive it well enough and hit enough greens, but the difference between those who get a check and those who drive out Friday afternoon comes down to putting.
Years ago Bobby Jones was the best putter. Later the best was Ben Hogan and Sam Snead, then Billy Casper and for a while Arnold Palmer had the magic. Then Jack Nicklaus beat him and everyone on the greens. Recently it was Tiger rolling in the long putts to win championships. They say that statistically it comes down to which golfer is rolling in 12 foot putts! They all make the shorter ones and few make the longer ones, but the guy who rolls in 12 footers all day for 4 days wins the tournament.
I saw an Interview by Jim Flick with Jack Nicklaus--talking about the almost fantastic long clutch putts he repeatedly made for major championships. Flick asked him how he did that--and Jack had no answer other than that he "envisioned" the ball going in so strongly that he may have made it happen through Parapsychology. Logically, if they can bend a spoon, etc. then they can change the way a golf ball rolls. That power or ability seems to come and go-- and it may explain why some champions had it--then lose it.
Certainly Nicklaus was a great putter in his prime-- and yet he says he never practiced putting and that essentially no other champions used his style.
Tiger seems to have had it--and lost it. Some thought his exotic background gave him insight into Zen or other oriental mind over matter methods.
Larry
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]I think (in fact I know) that golfers at the elite level think the difference between them is putting. They think they all drive it well enough and hit enough greens, but the difference between those who get a check and those who drive out Friday afternoon comes down to putting. [/quote]
Last week, you "knew" that Ricky Fowler took the club up "nearly vertical" [sic]...
...how'd that work out for you?
[quote]Years ago Bobby Jones was the best putter. Later the best was Ben Hogan and Sam Snead, then Billy Casper and for a while Arnold Palmer had the magic. Then Jack Nicklaus beat him and everyone on the greens. Recently it was Tiger rolling in the long putts to win championships. They say that statistically it comes down to which golfer is rolling in 12 foot putts! They all make the shorter ones and few make the longer ones, but the guy who rolls in 12 footers all day for 4 days wins the tournament. [/quote]
Actually, even from 6 feet, the very best pros make less than 90% of the time.
[quote]I saw an Interview by Jim Flick with Jack Nicklaus--talking about the almost fantastic long clutch putts he repeatedly made for major championships. Flick asked him how he did that--and Jack had no answer other than that he "envisioned" the ball going in so strongly that he may have made it happen through Parapsychology. Logically, if they can bend a spoon, etc. then they can change the way a golf ball rolls. That power or ability seems to come and go-- and it may explain why some champions had it--then lose it. [/quote]
So will telekinesis become your next "secret", Larry. I'd guess you'd have as much success with it as with your last couple of dozen "secrets"...
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]I think (in fact I know) that golfers at the elite level think the difference between them is putting. They think they all drive it well enough and hit enough greens, but the difference between those who get a check and those who drive out Friday afternoon comes down to putting.
Years ago Bobby Jones was the best putter. Later the best was Ben Hogan and Sam Snead, then Billy Casper and for a while Arnold Palmer had the magic. Then Jack Nicklaus beat him and everyone on the greens. Recently it was Tiger rolling in the long putts to win championships. They say that statistically it comes down to which golfer is rolling in 12 foot putts! They all make the shorter ones and few make the longer ones, but the guy who rolls in 12 footers all day for 4 days wins the tournament.
I saw an Interview by Jim Flick with Jack Nicklaus--talking about the almost fantastic long clutch putts he repeatedly made for major championships. Flick asked him how he did that--and Jack had no answer other than that he "envisioned" the ball going in so strongly that he may have made it happen through Parapsychology. Logically, if they can bend a spoon, etc. then they can change the way a golf ball rolls. That power or ability seems to come and go-- and it may explain why some champions had it--then lose it.
Certainly Nicklaus was a great putter in his prime-- and yet he says he never practiced putting and that essentially no other champions used his style.
Tiger seems to have had it--and lost it. Some thought his exotic background gave him insight into Zen or other oriental mind over matter methods.
Larry[/QUOTE]
WTF Larry? Did you get your medical marijuana card?
May the force be with you. Your post reminded me of this:
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]We must do that or swing OTT, bring it down from outside the target line and swipe across the ball--losing MOST of our effective clubhead speed, impossible to compress the ball like the pros do.
Humans are all built the same-- and when we just take it up and try to bring it down on the same plane, the clubhead actually flies OUTSIDE the target line and over the swing plane.
So good players keep it on plane by taking it up almost vertical when their arms are shoulder level, and then rolling arms and turning further to place the club and hands "behind" them so they can keep it on plane during the downswing.
Watch any good player from the back. You will see his clubhead appear over his head, then move straight back from the ball as he flatten the shaft and points the butt of the club OUTSIDE the target line through the ball. They all do that. Tiger, Furyk, Hogan, Player, and they young players like Fowler and his contemporaries. If you doubt that, have any teaching pro bring up their swings and step through the views from the back.
It feels like we are making the clubhead travel in a "figure 8" pattern. it goes up and then behind us as we move to our front leg and downswing "down and under" to accelerate the clubhead through from the inside. Our dominant arm elbow seems to come straight down, traveling "behind" our back hip. It doesn't really because the hips is turning toward the target. But the weight shift and hip turn are vital components. If you fail to shift, the whole thing won't happen.
Take lessons.
Larry[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMhP2NJA_M[/url]
Here is a great example. Watch him turn shoulders and arms together with the club shaft OUTSIDE, cock his wrists to get the shaft about vertical, then roll it around behind him to start the downswing. The butt of the club is pointing near his toe line during the backswing, then OUTSIDE the target line through the ball as he starts his downswing. This is a very powerful move because the entire body provides power to accelerate the clubhead--
Take lessons if you can't make this move.
Larry
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMhP2NJA_M[/url]
Here is a great example. Watch him turn shoulders and arms together with the club shaft OUTSIDE, cock his wrists to get the shaft about vertical, then roll it around behind him to start the downswing. The butt of the club is pointing near his toe line during the backswing, then OUTSIDE the target line through the ball as he starts his downswing. This is a very powerful move because the entire body provides power to accelerate the clubhead--
Take lessons if you can't make this move./QUOTE]
The only reason that it looks remotely like that is the angle from which the video is taken, Larry....
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8EBT2NwJg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8EBT2NwJg[/URL]
Does the shaft get a little steeper than the plane its on at address? Yes. Slightly.
Is it pointing at his toes? Nope.
Do you actually know if that something that is good for his swing or bad? No. You haven't a clue.
Is Tiger Woods acknowledged to have one of the very best swings in the game? You bet!
Does he do your "secret move"? Not in the slightest.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9t4HmbM4M4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9t4HmbM4M4[/URL]
He takes it up and brings it back down all on the same plane. The thing you declared as sure to make you come OTT.
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMhP2NJA_M[/url]
Here is a great example. Watch him turn shoulders and arms together with the club shaft OUTSIDE, cock his wrists to get the shaft about vertical, then roll it around behind him to start the downswing. The butt of the club is pointing near his toe line during the backswing, then OUTSIDE the target line through the ball as he starts his downswing. This is a very powerful move because the entire body provides power to accelerate the clubhead--
Take lessons if you can't make this move.
Larry[/QUOTE]
Geeze Lary, we missed you - NOT! You're so full of siat. If you tried to hit the ball like Alvaro you'd be broken. I'd be broken and I'm in decent shape. I'm telling you Mr RSF, you need to model your swing off this man, Moe Norman.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ef3uLSOUus&playnext=1&list=PLCCB144C8CB66F3FA&index=9"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ef3uLSOUus&playnext=1&list=PLCCB144C8CB66F3FA&index=9[/URL]
Look how he uses his body to power the club. You could make this move. Ask you Pro. I'm not flipping you shiat. Ask your Pro about Mr. Moe Norman. The man could hit more fairways and greens than anyone on the tour. I'm not sure about the stats but I know he had many, many hole in ones. He was a robot. Even Tiger said he was the best ball striker. Not hogan, Moe Norman.
Funny thing is, when I read your posts I hear moe norman in my head. Why do you think that is? Fairways and greens, Fairways and Green. Nobody but me. I'm the only one. LOL
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Tiger has often said how he would like to have ownership of his swing, like Moe Norman did. Moe is universally accepted (Larry doesn't count) as one of the, if not the, most consistent ball strikers of all time. Moe was also a semi homeless guy for long periods so that probably explains Larry's ignorance.
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I wasn't tired before I started skimming this thread, 10 mins ago. Now? I can barely keep my eyes open long enough to write this po...
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[quote=Larryrsf][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMhP2NJA_M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMhP2NJA_M[/URL]
Here is a great example. Watch him turn shoulders and arms together with the club shaft OUTSIDE, cock his wrists to get the shaft about vertical, then roll it around behind him to start the downswing. The butt of the club is pointing near his toe line during the backswing, then OUTSIDE the target line through the ball as he starts his downswing. This is a very powerful move because the entire body provides power to accelerate the clubhead--
Take lessons if you can't make this move.
Larry[/quote]
What a perfect looking swing Alvaro has. The problem is that he's very young, very strong and hits it further than 99% of the people out there. I'm not sure what there is to learn from someone like that who is so different than the rest of us. I don't see him dropping the club behind him. To me, it looks perfectly back and then through with no struggling of the body to get the club back on plane.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]What a perfect looking swing Alvaro has. The problem is that he's very young, very strong and hits it further than 99% of the people out there. I'm not sure what there is to learn from someone like that who is so different than the rest of us. I don't see him dropping the club behind him. To me, it looks perfectly back and then through with no struggling of the body to get the club back on plane.[/QUOTE]
Oh he definitely takes it back a little bit more upright and then comes down a little bit flatter, but the operative words are "a little bit", and the important thing to remember is that even a pros swing is a work in progress. For all anyone here knows, he may be trying to eliminate that move from his swing.
:)
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]What a perfect looking swing Alvaro has. The problem is that he's very young, very strong and hits it further than 99% of the people out there. I'm not sure what there is to learn from someone like that who is so different than the rest of us. I don't see him dropping the club behind him. To me, it looks perfectly back and then through with no struggling of the body to get the club back on plane.[/QUOTE]
I will repeat what my PGA pro said when he recommended I watch that video. Alvaro does what I am being taught to do. He takes it back with a connected turn to get the club about vertical when his arms are horizontal and fully extended. From there he shifts his weight to his front leg to start his downswing. Since his head does NOT shift with his butt, he tilts away from the target and the club butt appears to point outside the target line, very flat. Then as he pivots around toward the target the big muscles in his back power his golf swing, throwing his arms and the club.
That is what amateurs should imitate. We can do our version of his perfect swing.
Larry
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]I will repeat what my PGA pro said when he recommended I watch that video. Alvaro does what I am being taught to do. He takes it back with a connected turn to get the club about vertical when his arms are horizontal and fully extended. From there he shifts his weight to his front leg to start his downswing. Since his head does NOT shift with his butt, he tilts away from the target and the club butt appears to point outside the target line, very flat. Then as he pivots around toward the target the big muscles in his back power his golf swing, throwing his arms and the club.
That is what amateurs should imitate. We can do our version of his perfect swing.
Larry[/QUOTE]
*sigh...* I agree.... (Don't forget to mention the clearing of the hips) This IS what most tour players do, and yes he does have a good swing. But, you need to make exceptions for other swing styles. Not every one fits into the same swing type, i.e. teachings of Bender and Plummet, Bender, Foley. They believe in weight being more on the left leg throughout the swing rather than the shift from right to left.
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]I will repeat what my PGA pro said when he recommended I watch that video.[/quote]
And you'll keep repeating as gospel right up until you realize you still can't play, change pros and start preaching the new gospel!
[quote]Alvaro does what I am being taught to do. He takes it back with a connected turn to get the club about vertical when his arms are horizontal and fully extended.[/quote]
Watch this (again):
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8EBT2NwJg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8EBT2NwJg[/URL]
Seven (7) seconds in, Quiros's left hand is level with his left shoulder. Is the club vertical?
No.
[quote]From there he shifts his weight to his front leg to start his downswing. Since his head does NOT shift with his butt, he tilts away from the target and the club butt appears to point outside the target line, very flat.[/quote]
His club points outside the ball for a brief moment, because it is on a plane above but parallel to the plane it will be on at impact. After he lowers the plane, he is right on track from then on.
[quote]Then as he pivots around toward the target the big muscles in his back power his golf swing, throwing his arms and the club.
That is what amateurs should imitate. We can do our version of his perfect swing. [/QUOTE]
1. It isn't what he is doing.
2. Just a week ago, you told us that you'd given up on the pro who wanted you to do this because it was too difficult for even pros to do and you were no going to a different pro...
Please explain.
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[QUOTE=alangbaker]And you'll keep repeating as gospel right up until you realize you still can't play, change pros and start preaching the new gospel!
Watch this (again):
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8EBT2NwJg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8EBT2NwJg[/URL]
Seven (7) seconds in, Quiros's left hand is level with his left shoulder. Is the club vertical?
No.
His club points outside the ball for a brief moment, because it is on a plane above but parallel to the plane it will be on at impact. After he lowers the plane, he is right on track from then on.
1. It isn't what he is doing.
2. Just a week ago, you told us that you'd given up on the pro who wanted you to do this because it was too difficult for even pros to do and you were no going to a different pro...
Please explain.[/QUOTE]
Alan, he's actually spot on with this post. From caddie view, the left are in horizontal to the ground and the club is vertical. The handle will be pointing inside or outside of the target line depending on the shot he wants to hit....
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[QUOTE=qtong]Alan, he's actually spot on with this post. From caddie view, the left are in horizontal to the ground and the club is vertical. The handle will be pointing inside or outside of the target line depending on the shot he wants to hit....[/QUOTE]
You can't be sure of that because you're not looking at it from directly behind.
If his wrist set is not yet 90 degrees, it will appear that the shaft is vertical from the angle of the first shot in that video. When it gets to the second shot -- from the face side, behind the golfer, you can clearly see that when Quiros gets to left arm horizontal his wrist set [I]isn't[/I] yet 90 degrees (check out 1:00 in to the video to see what I mean).
In my video -- taken from directly behind, it is clear that his club isn't vertical when is left arm is horizontal.
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[QUOTE=alangbaker]And you'll keep repeating as gospel right up until you realize you still can't play, change pros and start preaching the new gospel!
Watch this (again):
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8EBT2NwJg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8EBT2NwJg[/URL]
Seven (7) seconds in, Quiros's left hand is level with his left shoulder. Is the club vertical?
No.
His club points outside the ball for a brief moment, because it is on a plane above but parallel to the plane it will be on at impact. After he lowers the plane, he is right on track from then on.
1. It isn't what he is doing.
2. Just a week ago, you told us that you'd given up on the pro who wanted you to do this because it was too difficult for even pros to do and you were no going to a different pro...
Please explain.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention that lary would be in traction if he tried to make a move anywhere like his.
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[QUOTE=qtong]Alan, he's actually spot on with this post. From caddie view, the left are in horizontal to the ground and the club is vertical. The handle will be pointing inside or outside of the target line depending on the shot he wants to hit....[/QUOTE]
Ehh that shaft angle looks way below 90 degrees to me, which is what I'd consider vertical. Jim Furyk, that's straight up and down while his hands are at 9:00. Alvaro's probably in the 65-75 range?
Larry's too focused on what he's seeing other people do. His fat, old, out of shape ass can't do the moves someone 40+ years younger than him can do. I bet if you asked Alvaro what he felt in the swing, it'd be completely different than what you see him doing. The re-routing of the club on the downswing, ie flattening the shaft is not a move he forces. It just happens on its own due to gravity, the weight of the club, and the force of his change in direction from backswing to downswing. Anyone who tries to do those types of manipulations on their own is a hack golfer.
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[QUOTE=Mward2002]Ehh that shaft angle looks way below 90 degrees to me, which is what I'd consider vertical. Jim Furyk, that's straight up and down while his hands are at 9:00. Alvaro's probably in the 65-75 range?
Larry's too focused on what he's seeing other people do. His fat, old, out of shape ass can't do the moves someone 40+ years younger than him can do. I bet if you asked Alvaro what he felt in the swing, it'd be completely different than what you see him doing. The re-routing of the club on the downswing, ie flattening the shaft is not a move he forces. It just happens on its own due to gravity, the weight of the club, and the force of his change in direction from backswing to downswing. Anyone who tries to do those types of manipulations on their own is a hack golfer.[/QUOTE]
It's particularly funny coming from Larry when you here things like "roll your forearms" after all the years when he droned on and on about how there should be no conscious use of anything except perhaps the weight shift. :)
And yes, I deliberately misspelled "here" so that I could give Larry a chance to give us his favorite kind of reply: a rambling insult about my level of education. ;)
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[QUOTE=alangbaker]It's particularly funny coming from Larry when you here things like "roll your forearms" after all the years when he droned on and on about how there should be no conscious use of anything except perhaps the weight shift. :)
And yes, I deliberately misspelled "here" so that I could give Larry a chance to give us his favorite kind of reply: a rambling insult about my level of education. ;)[/QUOTE]
Trolling: You're doing it right.
If you control the takeaway with your shoulders and upper body, the forearms naturally rotate on their own. If you roll them open on your own, you get all sorts of consistency problems. If you try and force it and roll them shut coming into impact, you're going to hit it left if your timing is too early, and block if it's too late. How can you be consistent if you have no idea if you're going to hit it left or right? Ask Tiger how he was doing when he was manipulating his forearm rotation in his swing...
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A good swing or even a perfect swing does not equate to good golf. You can have a perfect swing and score poorly. Just because a quarterback can throw a perfect 60-yard spiral doesn't mean that he's going to win any games.
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I think the best training aid may be the old "Inside Approach" marketed by Jack Nicklaus.
You can build an "Inside Approach" copy for about $5 worth of PVC.
Significantly, the "Inside Approach" was the only training aid endorsed by Jack Nicklaus to my knowledge.
But remember this thing can help us develop a better swing ONLY after we have solid fundamentals. We must start with a good grip, good setup, and fundamentally correct backswing. If you have fundamental faults, it will do you more harm than good. Take lessons if necessary.
The Inside Approach teaches (actually forces) us to downswing in the correct sequence. In order to miss that horizontal rod over the ball, we MUST post to our front leg while turned back and then bring our fully extended arms straight down. If we skip the "post" move, the "transition weight shift" to our front leg while turned back, we will be unable to bring the clubhead to the ball without hitting the bar.
Here my pro demonstrates the "down and under" move that differentiates the swing of elite level golfers from the other 99%. Notice the angle of his club is very flat as he brings his hands toward his leg with his right palm facing UP. Then his hips lead his shoulders turning through so he can bring the clubhead to the ball UNDER the "Inside Approach" bar. His turning hips supply the power. The release of the separation between hips and shoulders supplies the clubhead speed.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdun-LhrBVQ[/url]
Here he is making the same downswing moves using an "Inside Approach." He drilled that ball long and straight.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1NvefjZufE[/url]
Can you hit balls using one of these? You can if your swing is fundamentally correct. Look closely as Kevin swings. FIRST, he shifts his weight to his front leg while his shoulders remain turned, Then his hands travel straight down toward his legs AS his hips turn toward the target leading his shoulders. His arms follow with the club. Notice the bending clubshaft. We should be able to hit full shots with every club using this training aide. Ask your teaching pro.
Larry
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Larry, I think you need to come to Florida in the middle of February.
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[quote=Larryrsf]I think the best training aid may be the old "Inside Approach" marketed by Jack Nicklaus.
You can build an "Inside Approach" copy for about $5 worth of PVC.
Significantly, the "Inside Approach" was the only training aid endorsed by Jack Nicklaus to my knowledge.
But remember this thing can help us develop a better swing ONLY after we have solid fundamentals. We must start with a good grip, good setup, and fundamentally correct backswing. If you have fundamental faults, it will do you more harm than good. Take lessons if necessary.
The Inside Approach teaches (actually forces) us to downswing in the correct sequence. In order to miss that horizontal rod over the ball, we MUST post to our front leg while turned back and then bring our fully extended arms straight down. If we skip the "post" move, the "transition weight shift" to our front leg while turned back, we will be unable to bring the clubhead to the ball without hitting the bar.
Here my pro demonstrates the "down and under" move that differentiates the swing of elite level golfers from the other 99%. Notice the angle of his club is very flat as he brings his hands toward his leg with his right palm facing UP. Then his hips lead his shoulders turning through so he can bring the clubhead to the ball UNDER the "Inside Approach" bar. His turning hips supply the power. The release of the separation between hips and shoulders supplies the clubhead speed.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdun-LhrBVQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdun-LhrBVQ[/URL]
Here he is making the same downswing moves using an "Inside Approach." He drilled that ball long and straight.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1NvefjZufE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1NvefjZufE[/URL]
Can you hit balls using one of these? You can if your swing is fundamentally correct. Look closely as Kevin swings. FIRST, he shifts his weight to his front leg while his shoulders remain turned, Then his hands travel straight down toward his legs AS his hips turn toward the target leading his shoulders. His arms follow with the club. Notice the bending clubshaft. We should be able to hit full shots with every club using this training aide. Ask your teaching pro.
Larry[/quote]
You could put a purple dildo on one of those.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]You could put a purple dildo on one of those.[/QUOTE]
Hold on...these days you have to earn a Purple Dildo, as Tiger did on Sunday. Once earned, and I think Larry is capable, he'll want to display it somewhere in his home where he can show it off to his guests.
A dining room glass display case might be appropriate.
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[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Hold on...these days you have to earn a Purple Dildo, as Tiger did on Sunday. Once earned, and I think Larry is capable, he'll want to display it somewhere in his home where he can show it off to his guests.
A dining room glass display case might be appropriate.[/QUOTE]
Really, I'm now imagining lary doing a chicken dance involving the Purple Dildo and guttural squawks.
Seriously, if lary had the glory of having the Purple Dildo it would be a conundrum for him. On one hand, he would want to display it in a glass case for all to see and marvel at it's beauty. On the other hand, he would name it Precious and bury it deep in a hole were know one could see.
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[QUOTE=Mward2002]Larry, I think you need to come to Florida in the middle of February.[/QUOTE]
Nobody goes from San Diego to Florida. Our weather is better than theirs in Winter and INFINITELY better in Summer. We don't have bugs nor do we have humidity.
The ONLY reason Tiger and others go to Florida is state taxes. Apparently Mickelson can afford to pay--
Larry
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Can you spell "LOW LIFE?"
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]Can you spell "LOW LIFE?"[/QUOTE]
Sure, "L-a-r-r-y-R-S-F" or another accepted spelling is "Larry Whitaker."
(that was too easy.)
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[QUOTE=jt1135]Well, I'd like to bang a bunch of actresses but I guess I'll just stumble along getting the local talent. Happy with the local and know that the others are probably out of my reach. Kind of analogy to your swing thoughts. Who gives a shite how you put the ball in the hole as long as it gets in the hole. If I could swing a club with my dick and make par its still a par no matter how it looked getting there.[/QUOTE]
If you could swing a golf club with your dick, the actresses would be following you around like a pack of dogs.. :-)
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Reminds me of when my daughter used to like Barney the purple dinosaur. Got really tired of hearing "This is the song that never ends."
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[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Hold on...these days you have to earn a Purple Dildo, as Tiger did on Sunday. Once earned, and [B]I think Larry is capable, he'll want to display it somewhere in his home where he can show it off to his guests. [/B]
A dining room glass display case might be appropriate.[/QUOTE]
He can just do what Famousdavis suggested and attach it to his latest "Inside approach" training device. I've seen the one he made with PVC pipe and it looks kind of cheap and tacky. But if he substituted a section of the PVC pipe with the Purple Dildo he could then display it proudly on his deck for both "Inside approach" drill sessions and when he has guests around for BBQ's.
I hope Larry is accurate though. I think Spak mentioned the PD is quite brittle and one wayward swing drill with the 2002 BB could spell disaster.
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[quote=Larryrsf]Nobody goes from San Diego to Florida. Our weather is better than theirs in Winter and INFINITELY better in Summer. We don't have bugs nor do we have humidity.
The ONLY reason Tiger and others go to Florida is state taxes. Apparently Mickelson can afford to pay--
Larry[/quote]
I would have to agree with this statement.
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]I think the best training aid may be the old "Inside Approach" marketed by Jack Nicklaus.[/quote]
Except last month: when you thought it was the Swing Jacket...
...or was last month the Whippy Tempomaster?
[quote]You can build an "Inside Approach" copy for about $5 worth of PVC.
Significantly, the "Inside Approach" was the only training aid endorsed by Jack Nicklaus to my knowledge.[/quote
Which proves only that they paid him enough...
[quote]But remember this thing can help us develop a better swing ONLY after we have solid fundamentals. We must start with a good grip, good setup, and fundamentally correct backswing. If you have fundamental faults, it will do you more harm than good. Take lessons if necessary.
The Inside Approach teaches (actually forces) us to downswing in the correct sequence. In order to miss that horizontal rod over the ball, we MUST post to our front leg while turned back and then bring our fully extended arms straight down. If we skip the "post" move, the "transition weight shift" to our front leg while turned back, we will be unable to bring the clubhead to the ball without hitting the bar. [/quote]
I'll bet you $5000 that I can miss that horizontal rod while standing on my back leg from start to finish.
[quote]Here my pro demonstrates the "down and under" move that differentiates the swing of elite level golfers from the other 99%. Notice the angle of his club is very flat as he brings his hands toward his leg with his right palm facing UP. Then his hips lead his shoulders turning through so he can bring the clubhead to the ball UNDER the "Inside Approach" bar. His turning hips supply the power. The release of the separation between hips and shoulders supplies the clubhead speed.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdun-LhrBVQ[/url]
Here he is making the same downswing moves using an "Inside Approach." He drilled that ball long and straight.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1NvefjZufE[/url]
Can you hit balls using one of these? You can if your swing is fundamentally correct. Look closely as Kevin swings. FIRST, he shifts his weight to his front leg while his shoulders remain turned, Then his hands travel straight down toward his legs AS his hips turn toward the target leading his shoulders. His arms follow with the club. Notice the bending clubshaft. We should be able to hit full shots with every club using this training aide. Ask your teaching pro.[/QUOTE]
You mean "aid" not "aide", right? Only "LOW LIFE[s]" with no education make those sorts of spelling mistakes, right Larry?
And how do you bend the club shaft if you don't use the hands, Larry? Haven't you droned on and on about the Whippy Tempomaster and how you cannot possibly make a good swing unless you can hit a Whippy?
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[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]He can just do what Famousdavis suggested and attach it to his latest "Inside approach" training device. I've seen the one he made with PVC pipe and it looks kind of cheap and tacky. But if he substituted a section of the PVC pipe with the Purple Dildo he could then display it proudly on his deck for both "Inside approach" drill sessions and when he has guests around for BBQ's.
I hope Larry is accurate though. I think Spak mentioned the PD is quite brittle and one wayward swing drill with the 2002 BB could spell disaster.[/QUOTE]
Larry, this has some potential. Let's say you put a sticky on your Inside Approach Purple Dildo that says: "Alan's nuts". Think about it, you'd gain 20 yards. That's equivalent to 24.362 lessons in your case.
Don't thank me, I only ask that you post a video.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]I would have to agree with this statement.[/QUOTE]
I've never had to worry about earthquakes in Florida, and our golf weather is just as long as his. Rolling blackouts? How do those feel?
Phil = Retarded.
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[quote=Mward2002]I've never had to worry about earthquakes in Florida, and our golf weather is just as long as his. Rolling blackouts? How do those feel?
Phil = Retarded.[/quote]
People in Southern California don't worry about earthquakes. I live in San Diego and there is no better weather anywhere in the country. I've visited Florida and it's very humid. It's a great place for golf and I'm sure it's much cheaper to live but the weather isn't nearly as good. This morning I went outside around 7:30am and it was already in the 60's. I think the high today will be around 68. In the summer it gets very cool at night because of the pacific ocean. Plus, the beaches like Del Mar, Pacific Beach and Coronado are ten times better than anything on the East Coast.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]People in Southern California don't worry about earthquakes. I live in San Diego and there is no better weather anywhere in the country. I've visited Florida and it's very humid. It's a great place for golf and I'm sure it's much cheaper to live but the weather isn't nearly as good. This morning I went outside around 7:30am and it was already in the 60's. I think the high today will be around 68. In the summer it gets very cool at night because of the pacific ocean. Plus, the beaches like Del Mar, Pacific Beach and Coronado are ten times better than anything on the East Coast.[/QUOTE]
I don't doubt the beaches for an instant. The Pacific kicks the s.hit out of the Gulf of Mexico no doubt. And the women are undoubtedly hotter right now since all the scum of the North and Northeast have invaded my state.
Florida's humid, but I'm so used to it I just deal with it. Right now it's 54 degrees with 43% humidity. It's nippy cold, but not a single cloud in the sky and no wind so it'd be golf weather. The humidity helps keep you thin and helps with hangovers. Nothing like sweating out the toxins from the night prior before you hit the second green.
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65, no clouds, no wind. Will be 70 in an hour or so when I go to Del Mar Golf Center and hit a few balls. Famousdavis should drive up and join me.
Larry
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[QUOTE=Larryrsf]65, no clouds, no wind. Will be 70 in an hour or so when I go to Del Mar Golf Center and hit a few balls. Famousdavis should drive up and join me.
Larry[/QUOTE]
Let us know when you actually play some golf and post a score.
You did say a few weeks ago that you'd shortly be ready to do that again.
What happened?
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Why [B][I]not[/I][/B] flatten the shaft, right? Who the hell cares? If it makes you happy, go ahead and flatten the damn shaft. Or don't flatten it. What is this thread about, again?
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Why does a thread have to be about anything? Like the Jerry Seinfeld show. Just go on aimlessly in what ever direction the flow goes.
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[quote=Larryrsf]65, no clouds, no wind. Will be 70 in an hour or so when I go to Del Mar Golf Center and hit a few balls. Famousdavis should drive up and join me.
Larry[/quote]
That might be the ultimate GR match. It wouldn't require any travel either. I live in Rancho Bernardo.
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[QUOTE=famousdavis]That might be the ultimate GR match. It wouldn't require any travel either. I live in Rancho Bernardo.[/QUOTE]
So how about it FD, you feeling froggy?
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[quote=Not a hacker]So how about it FD, you feeling froggy?[/quote]
Actually I'm going to play tomorrow but I haven't decided where yet. One thing I'm not going to agree to is go to the range and see who can hit 6 irons closest to the 150. Maybe Larry could get me on one of the military courses.
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