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[QUOTE=pingman360]i think the point is being missed... it is killing regardless of when it happens, after the moment of conception if you choose to stop the pregnancy it is killing a life....
you accuse dave of using extreme examples, yet you cite extreme examples such as rape, incest, and harm to the mother for reasons for abortion... so you distort the truth by your own standards[/QUOTE]
I don't use the words "a life". [B]It's either a human being, or it isn't. [/B] that phrase seems to invite misunderstanding and compromise.
If it isn't a human being, then it's a tissue mass, not 'a life'. Remove it and be done with it. Medical procedure. "Just a cluster of cells", as Bill Maher called it. Like a wart.
If it IS a human being, then killing it is.... what it is. But what is the true nature of the thing itself?
Those who condone and perform and avail themselves of abortions do NOT believe they're killing a human being. It is the social duty of the person who [B]does[/B] believe this to try to convince them, [B][I]but not to call them evil and murderer and so forth, because there is a genuine arguable difference of opinion.[/I][/B]
It ends up being a religious argument, but not (as is often thought) the business of forcing one's morals upon others. It is to convince them of the special, God given, Created and eternal status of each unique priceless human being ([I]insert accusation of social hypocrisy here [/I] :-).
If we are all eternal, then our physical existence "is us" even if we are only a fertilized egg. And I don't believe there is a scientifically identifiable latter stage of development in which we suddenly get sprinkled with some magic dust and become "human" or "fully human" or some such. Science, at least, has not attempted to prove such a stage exists. The term "trimester" was invented by lawyers working on Roe v. Wade PR. It has been adopted by the medical field but was not a medical term until the 1970's.
but if you [B]don't[/B] have the religious view, you end up thinking about brain function or eyeballs or hands and feet or the third trimester or some such. You think "humanity", whatever that might mean to you, comes later, not at conception.
In the end, one must have some religious convictions to embrace the first view, and the second is a logical result of a lack of such convictions.
over six thousand years the answers elude and divide us--
First, "what is a human being?"
second, "when is a human being human?"
existential philosophical questions. From Socrates to Sartre, philosophy has answered them in every possible way. Far, far better minds than mine have purported to have settled it.
In the end, for me it's Jesus telling the centurion "I knew you before you were born", implying an eternal aspect of our unique souls that predates the birth of each of us. As a fertilized egg, "me" was already me... that's how I interpret what Jesus said in this story.
Differently religious, less religious, non religious people have different opinions which are rationally defensible.
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[QUOTE=daveperkins]I don't use the words "a life". [B]It's either a human being, or it isn't. [/B] that phrase seems to invite misunderstanding and compromise.
If it isn't a human being, then it's a tissue mass, not 'a life'. Remove it and be done with it. Medical procedure. "Just a cluster of cells", as Bill Maher called it. Like a wart.
If it IS a human being, then killing it is.... what it is. But what is the true nature of the thing itself?
Those who condone and perform and avail themselves of abortions do NOT believe they're killing a human being. It is the social duty of the person who [B]does[/B] believe this to try to convince them, [B][I]but not to call them evil and murderer and so forth, because there is a genuine arguable difference of opinion.[/I][/B]
It ends up being a religious argument, but not (as is often thought) the business of forcing one's morals upon others. It is to convince them of the special, God given, Created and eternal status of each unique priceless human being ([I]insert accusation of social hypocrisy here [/I] :-).
If we are all eternal, then our physical existence "is us" even if we are only a fertilized egg. And I don't believe there is a scientifically identifiable latter stage of development in which we suddenly get sprinkled with some magic dust and become "human" or "fully human" or some such. Science, at least, has not attempted to prove such a stage exists. The term "trimester" was invented by lawyers working on Roe v. Wade PR. It has been adopted by the medical field but was not a medical term until the 1970's.
but if you [B]don't[/B] have the religious view, you end up thinking about brain function or eyeballs or hands and feet or the third trimester or some such. You think "humanity", whatever that might mean to you, comes later, not at conception.
In the end, one must have some religious convictions to embrace the first view, and the second is a logical result of a lack of such convictions.
over six thousand years the answers elude and divide us--
First, "what is a human being?"
second, "when is a human being human?"
existential philosophical questions. From Socrates to Sartre, philosophy has answered them in every possible way. Far, far better minds than mine have purported to have settled it.
In the end, for me it's Jesus telling the centurion "I knew you before you were born", implying an eternal aspect of our unique souls that predates the birth of each of us. As a fertilized egg, "me" was already me... that's how I interpret what Jesus said in this story.
Differently religious, less religious, non religious people have different opinions which are rationally defensible.[/QUOTE]
DP, this is the first posting I've read of yours that was rational and well reasoned, although I admittedly ignored a whole bunch of others. Well said sir. :thumbsup:
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[QUOTE=wofat]DP, this is the first posting I've read of yours that was rational and well reasoned, although I admittedly ignored a whole bunch of others. Well said sir. :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]
You're a gentleman and a scholar, and I shall not order Danno to book you... for now...
:cool:
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[QUOTE=oldplayer]I heard an associate say of Malcom McClaron that he will hardly recieve a state funeral. I don't think johnny was a bid fan either.[/QUOTE]
Malcolm McLaren was a shameless self publicist and self styled svengali whose only real achievement was to thrust the greatest rock and roll band of all time onto a sleepwalking public.
This is a word for transcript of the Pistols infamous interview on the Bill Grundy 5pm show from 01st December 1976 - pure genius
Grundy: [To camera] They are punk rockers. The new craze, they tell me. Their heroes? Not the nice, clean Rolling Stones ... you see they are as drunk as I am ... they are clean by comparison. They're a group called the Sex Pistols, and I am surrounded by all of them ...
Jones: [Reading the autocue] ... in action!
Grundy: Just let us see the Sex Pistols in action. Come on kids ...
[Film of the Sex Pistols in action is shown; then back to Grundy]
Grundy: I am told that that group [hits his knee with sheaf of papers] have received £40,000 from a record company. Doesn't that seem, er, to be slightly opposed to their anti-materialistic view of life?
Matlock: No, the more the merrier.
Grundy: Really?
Matlock: Oh yeah.
Grundy: Well tell me more then.
Jones: We've f uckin' spent it, ain't we?
Grundy: I don't know, have you?
Matlock: Yeah, it's all gone.
Grundy: Really?
Jones: Down the boozer.
Grundy: Really? Good Lord! Now I want to know one thing ...
Matlock: What?
Grundy: Are you serious or are you just making me ... trying to make me laugh?
Matlock: No, it's all gone. Gone.
Grundy: Really?
Matlock: Yeah.
Grundy: No, but I mean about what you're doing.
Matlock: Oh yeah.
Grundy: You are serious?
Matlock: Mmm.
Grundy: Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and Brahms have all died ...
Rotten: They're all heroes of ours, ain't they?
Grundy: Really ... what? What were you saying, sir?
Rotten: They're wonderful people.
Grundy: Are they?
Rotten: Oh yes! They really turn us on.
Jones: But they're dead!
Grundy: Well suppose they turn other people on?
Rotten: [Under his breath] That's just their tough s hit.
Grundy: It's what?
Rotten: Nothing. A rude word. Next question.
Grundy: No, no, what was the rude word?
Rotten: s hit.
Grundy: Was it really? Good heavens, you frighten me to death.
Rotten: Oh alright, Siegfried ...
Grundy: [Turning to those standing behind the band] What about you girls behind?
Matlock: He's like yer dad, innee, this geezer?
Grundy: Are you, er ...
Matlock: Or your grandad.
Grundy: [To Sioux] Are you worried, or are you just enjoying yourself?
Sioux: Enjoying myself.
Grundy: Are you?
Sioux: Yeah.
Grundy: Ah, that's what I thought you were doing.
Sioux: I always wanted to meet you.
Grundy: Did you really?
Sioux: Yeah.
Grundy: We'll meet afterwards, shall we? [Sioux does a camp pout]
Jones: You dirty sod. You dirty old man!
Grundy: Well keep going, chief, keep going. Go on, you've got another five seconds. Say something outrageous.
Jones: You dirty bastard!
Grundy: Go on, again.
Jones: You dirty f ucker! [Laughter from the group]
Grundy: What a clever boy!
Jones: What a f ucking rotter.
Grundy: Well, that's it for tonight. The other rocker, Eamonn, and I'm saying nothing else about him, will be back tomorrow. I'll be seeing you soon, I hope. I'm not seeing you [the band] again. From me, though, goodnight.
From there it was instant cult status
RIP Malcolm, you were a c unt, but a c unt of my era
Edgey
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[QUOTE=oldplayer]I heard an associate say of Malcom McClaron that he will hardly recieve a state funeral. [B]I don't think johnny was a bid fan either.[/B][/QUOTE]
Johnny Rotten (Lydon) hates everybody. He seems to have become an even more cantankerous tosser in his old age than he was as a young punk.
Edgey is right though. McClaren was a shameless self promoter but he brought us the Sex Pistols and spawned a great new era in music that brought us other great acts like The Clash and The Stranglers and shat all over those boring crap glam rock bands of the mid seventies.
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[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Well said but would you feel differently if you banged some skank ho and got her pregnant?
I know a guy married with 3 kids. He was going through a rough patch in his marriage and he moved out for a while to try and 'work things out'. In a drunken night out he bedded some skank and got her pregnant and she absolutely insisted that she was having [I]HIS[/I] baby.
His life has been hell ever since.[/QUOTE]
hahaha... women... we can do with and without... it's a gamble. if we are lucky, we would be a happiest man on earth, most of the time, life is more miserable than happy. So, if we are considered having a very reasonable wife/lady then do whatever it takes to keep her
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[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Johnny Rotten (Lydon) hates everybody. He seems to have become an even more cantankerous tosser in his old age than he was as a young punk.
Edgey is right though. McClaren was a shameless self promoter but he brought us the Sex Pistols and spawned a great new era in music that brought us other great acts like The Clash and The Stranglers and shat all over those boring crap glam rock bands of the mid seventies.[/QUOTE]
Wow, you've got a huge dark side going on there, K. I would have figured you for a Steve Perry fan.
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[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Johnny Rotten (Lydon) hates everybody. He seems to have become an even more cantankerous tosser in his old age than he was as a young punk.
Edgey is right though. McClaren was a shameless self promoter but he brought us the Sex Pistols and spawned a great new era in music that brought us other great acts like The Clash and The Stranglers and shat all over those boring crap glam rock bands of the mid seventies.[/QUOTE]
the proof of quality resides in the DURABILITY.
They're still playing that pedophile Gary Glitter's ROCK AND ROLL PART II in all the stadiums here in the states when teams come out to play.. and the crowd shouts along with "HEY" when it comes...
but no Sex Pisstols..
boring crap glam rock 1, nasty punk trash rock 0.
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[QUOTE=daveperkins]the proof of quality resides in the DURABILITY.
They're still playing that pedophile Gary Glitter's ROCK AND ROLL PART II in all the stadiums here in the states when teams come out to play.. and the crowd shouts along with "HEY" when it comes...
but no Sex Pisstols..
boring crap glam rock 1, nasty punk trash rock 0.[/QUOTE]
Get real Dave. When God Save the Queen was at No.2 in the British charts no way it would have been played in a sports stadium. Horses for courses. G Glitters stupid chants are perfect for that type of situation.
The Sex Pistols have longevity. Their album 'Never Mind the Bollocks' is a classic rock album that holds an important and pivotal place in rock history. Many modern bands talk about how they were influenced by the Pistols.
The fact that you are still playing Gary Glitter chants in your stadiums is more of a sad reflection on your sporting culture IMO.
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[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]Wow, you've got a huge dark side going on there, K. I would have figured you for a Steve Perry fan.[/QUOTE]
LOL :D
You are not the first guy to tell me that (and won't be the last). I played golf at the weekend with an American guy and gave him a lift to the course. When I cranked up 'Rage Against the Machine' he looked surprised and said "Hey Kiwi I had you figured for a John Cougar Mellencamp kind of guy!"
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[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Get real Dave. When God Save the Queen was at No.2 in the British charts no way it would have been played in a sports stadium. Horses for courses. G Glitters stupid chants are perfect for that type of situation.
The Sex Pistols have longevity. Their album 'Never Mind the Bollocks' is a classic rock album that holds an important and pivotal place in rock history. Many modern bands talk about how they were influenced by the Pistols.
The fact that you are still playing Gary Glitter chants in your stadiums is more of a sad reflection on your sporting culture IMO.[/QUOTE]
Gary Glitter is a sad reflection on EVERYTHING, including our sporting culture.
But the Sex Pistols IMHO are proof, in the long run, that marketing yourself based on rejection of all cultural norms will in the end cause you to be forgotten by the masses. The norms will outlast you.
Those guys truly were rotten and vicious. Any talent they might have had was obscured by their legend, their behavior, their social unacceptability and indeed DESIRE to not be accepted socially. In their badness they felt they were 'too good for us'. In rejecting all bourgeois moral measurements they paradoxically attempted to gain [I]moral superiority[/I].
Irrational thinking of the kind the 1970s made legendary.
I know I heard their music way back when, but I just don't remember it. "pivotal" or not.
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[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]Johnny Rotten (Lydon) hates everybody. He seems to have become an even more cantankerous tosser in his old age than he was as a young punk.
Edgey is right though. McClaren was a shameless self promoter but he brought us the Sex Pistols and spawned a great new era in music that brought us other great acts like The Clash and The Stranglers and shat all over those boring crap glam rock bands of the mid seventies.[/QUOTE]
For the record, the Ramones spawned that era.
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[QUOTE=Home-slicer]For the record, the Ramones spawned that era.[/QUOTE]
This is correct . . . .
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[QUOTE=Home-slicer]For the record, the Ramones spawned that era.[/QUOTE]
For the record, Iggy and the Stooges pre dated The Ramones and spawned the punk era.
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[QUOTE=Not a hacker]For the record, Iggy and the Stooges pre dated The Ramones and spawned the punk era.[/QUOTE]
Iggy definately was ahead of his time and had the punk attitude down, but the music on the first stooges recordings was more along the lines of The Kinks type of garage rock. He was influential to the punk era, but the Ramones were the first Punk band. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs. Regardless, the Pistols were the prefabricated, Backstreet Boys of punk.
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[QUOTE=Home-slicer]Iggy definately was ahead of his time and had the punk attitude down, but the music on the first stooges recordings was more along the lines of The Kinks type of garage rock. He was influential to the punk era, but the Ramones were the first Punk band. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs. Regardless, the Pistols were the prefabricated, Backstreet Boys of punk.[/QUOTE]
The Stooges probably were a punk/indy garage band crossover and could fall into either category, but I've seen plenty of rock docs which list them as influential to the punk scene. The Stooges were probably one of the most influential bands of all time. I was lucky enough to see them live in Oz a few years ago when they played a big festival here. Only did about a 45 minute set and didn't know any of the songs as I wasn't into them before, but undoubtedly the best live gig I've ever had the privilege of seeing.
As for full on punk bands, I think the New York Dolls may have been around before the Ramones too.
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[QUOTE=Home-slicer]For the record, the Ramones spawned that era.[/QUOTE]
Maybe (I agree with NAH that the New York Dolls were the first) but the Sex Pistols brought it to the attention of the mainstream media through McClarens promotional genius and other bands like The Clash and The Stranglers were inspired by what they saw and followed suit.
For the record, IMO the Ramones are the most boring, overrated band of the punk era. Every song sounds the same, 3 chords and some mindless, tuneless singing. Blitzkreig Bop, Beat on the Brat ...etc
Heard one you've heard em all.
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All stuff in that era was tripe....bloody tripe.
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[QUOTE=RhinocerusBalls]All stuff in that era was tripe....bloody tripe.[/QUOTE]
I beg to differ and present the attached as my evidence your honor!
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4hPnZUMBwA[/url]
Proviso: this must be served [SIZE="7"][B]LOUD![/B][/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]I beg to differ and present the attached as my evidence your honor!
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4hPnZUMBwA[/url]
Proviso: this must be served [SIZE="7"][B]LOUD![/B][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Well Andy Kaufman was one strange lad is what I'd say at this point.
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[QUOTE=Kiwi Player]I beg to differ and present the attached as my evidence your honor!
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4hPnZUMBwA[/url]
Proviso: this must be served [SIZE="7"][B]LOUD![/B][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Great link Kiwi. What a great sound.
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I wonder how the Boss did in his comp. I tuned in to CBS Sunday afternoon expecting to see a Jesus-bearded strongman cranking out 400 yarders down the middle of a grid, but instead had to settle for a bunch of regular guys playing regular golf. What a letdown.
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I've been thinking of getting into long drive. I'd have to think that with balls this big, they'd have to help my turn.
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[QUOTE=Spaghetti N Meatballs]I've been thinking of getting into long drive. I'd have to think that with balls this big, they'd have to help my turn.[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking with balls that big, you should stay away from Italian restaurants when they're serving pasta. Noodles and balls are a big thing (especially mine). They call it "tomato sauce", but we know better.
FON
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[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]I'm thinking with balls that big, you should stay away from Italian restaurants when they're serving pasta. Noodles and balls are a big thing (especially mine). They call it "tomato sauce", but we know better.
FON[/QUOTE]
It would seem you have a thing for balls, and Taylormade...
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[QUOTE=DogBalls]It would seem you have a thing for balls, and Taylormade...[/QUOTE]
I believe it's called "golf", but don't quote me on that one.
FON
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[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]I'm thinking with balls that big, you should stay away from Italian restaurants when they're serving pasta. Noodles and balls are a big thing (especially mine). They call it "tomato sauce", but we know better.
t
FON[/QUOTE]
if you're implying I'm him, I'm not.
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[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]if you're implying I'm him, I'm not.[/QUOTE]
Not implying so much as just putting out feelers. I would have come to that conclusion eventually... after all - you'd never respond to something like that with a post that would give it away... so if he'd done that I'd have known it wasn't you.
Don't make me explain how I do my detective work... This sh!t is like poker - you don't give away your hand.
Just playing the game. :D
FON
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[QUOTE=FreakOfNature]Not implying so much as just putting out feelers. I would have come to that conclusion eventually... after all - you'd never respond to something like that with a post that would give it away... so if he'd done that I'd have known it wasn't you.
Don't make me explain how I do my detective work... This sh!t is like poker - you don't give away your hand.
Just playing the game. :D
FON[/QUOTE]
So am I him or not? I'm confused and need to know.
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[QUOTE=lorenzoinoc]So am I him or not? I'm confused and need to know.[/QUOTE]
I can sell you a decoder ring for $50 if you really want to know that badly.
On second thought - just leave it to me and Scooby Doo and we'll get to the bottom of this mystery. Eventually...
FON
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