Fire da bum?

**buddha33** · 07-28-2004

I had my first official lesson on Monday night and I wasn't 100% pleased with how it went down. He had me take my normal swings so he could determine what we should work on. He tweeked a couple of things and asked for me to hit some balls with the new mechanics in place.

After a few swings, he analyzed my divots and determined my clubs should be bent upright as the toe was digging in deeper than the heel. I was like, "Ok. I'll try to get that taken care of soon."

Evidently, soon to him meant the next day. "Get them done tomorrow so we can get back together Wednesday."

I thought this was a little strange. Surely there's something he could teach me to work on so that after a couple of weeks my clubs would be bent and I'd have worked on my game a little. Why did it have to be right away? It's not like I can't hit decent shots with my clubs as is.

Even stranger was how he made me swing his Mizuno blades the rest of the lesson.

Was Arba right? Should I be concerned about this dude?

**Jeff_h** · 07-28-2004

It's very popular these days for instructors to teach a more upright swing plane (ala Ledbetter and Harmon). With that go upright lie angles. My guess is the tweaks he had you do involved a straight back take-away with the top feeling a little higher than you are used to. Both are signs that he is teaching an upright swing. The problem with the lie angles being too flat is that you'll tend to hit shots right. The toe will dig in and cause the face to remain open. I would assume his Mizuno clubs have a more upright lie, so he had you use them instead. I'd go ahead and get the clubs bent and try another session. It shouldn't cost more than $3 each or so to get them bent. A whole set can be done in about 15 minutes.

BTW, did he say how upright he wanted you to go? Depending on the kind of clubs you have, there are limitations to how much they can be bent. So, what kind of clubs and how much upright?

**Bravo35223** · 07-28-2004

Budhha:

I think Jeff h's advice is sound.

One other thought is that you may want to go to a clubfitter and have them check your clubs to give you a corroborating (or dissenting) opinion.

I (like you) am a research addict and hate going into a crossroads not fully informed....

Looking for some peace of mind that you are making the right move.

**wormburner** · 07-28-2004

I think its bs. If you're learning new swing techniques, I would think he would want you to work on them for a while until you've got it down. Then start looking at what you do consistently with your swing to get custom fitting later on.

Considering this was your first lesson, I would think there would be a ton of things you could work on that wouldn't involve the lie angle of your club. My clubs were an inch short and I never had an instructor tell me to go get different clubs. The lie angle was wrong too.

My vote...fire da bum.

**timhultberg** · 07-28-2004

its sounds like this guy is tring to get you to swing like he does, which isnt what an instructor should do....i'd find someone else, but thats just me

**buddha33** · 07-28-2004

Originally Posted by Jeff_h

BTW, did he say how upright he wanted you to go? Depending on the kind of clubs you have, there are limitations to how much they can be bent. So, what kind of clubs and how much upright?

He didn't suggest changing anything about my swing plane except to quit coming over the top. Supposedly my posture is decent and my backswing is "enviable". The only tweeks he suggested were to turn the hands over and swing more with the hands than with my arms.

It was obvious to him before any changes were made that my clubs needed to be bent. I do have a slice issue which he said is accentuated by the toe digging in and turning the club right as you described.

I just don't understand why this is such a huge issue that needs to be resolved asap. Like I mentioned before, surely there are things he can teach me regardless of the lie angle of my clubs.

FWIW, I have Cleveland TA5 irons. He advised getting them bent 2 degrees upright.

Bravo, I'll have the proshop look at my swing to determine how much the clubs should be bent.

Worm, I agree. Equipment should be the last of his worries. Granted, they will affect the flight of the ball when they're altered. I just don't see how this would keep him from altering the mechanics of my swing.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

**bdcrowe** · 07-28-2004

Originally Posted by buddha33

He didn't suggest changing anything about my swing plane except to quit coming over the top. Supposedly my posture is decent and my backswing is "enviable". The only tweeks he suggested were to turn the hands over and swing more with the hands than with my arms.

It was obvious to him before any changes were made that my clubs needed to be bent. I do have a slice issue which he said is accentuated by the toe digging in and turning the club right as you described.

I just don't understand why this is such a huge issue that needs to be resolved asap. Like I mentioned before, surely there are things he can teach me regardless of the lie angle of my clubs.

FWIW, I have Cleveland TA5 irons. He advised getting them bent 2 degrees upright.

Bravo, I'll have the proshop look at my swing to determine how much the clubs should be bent.

Worm, I agree. Equipment should be the last of his worries. Granted, they will affect the flight of the ball when they're altered. I just don't see how this would keep him from altering the mechanics of my swing.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Hey buddha. In a teaching/learning relationship, it's all about results. If your lie is wrong, you will probably not see the results of an improved swing that you would see with an improved swing and the right clubs. Most students will question a method if they see little results, and most students will lose the drive to practice if results aren't there. I think it's true he may be being a little impatient in the "tomorrow" timeframe, but I also think it's important to have the clubs for the swing he will give you. MHO

**Dave T** · 07-28-2004

I agree with bdcrowe. If your clubs don't fit you, you're going to adjust your swing to match your clubs (probably unconsciously). The swing you end up with will be less than ideal. You want to have your clubs adjusted to fit the swing you're striving towards. That way, as your swing improves, you'll hit it better and better. If your clubs don't match the "proper swing", you won't get enough positive feedback when you make changes. Plus, what's the big deal - bending the clubs won't cost much.

The last thing you want to do, though, is have your clubs bent to match the way you're swinging now, unless you don't plan on changing your swing. This is what would probably happen if you went to a clubfitter - he'd have you make some swings with impact tape on your clubs, to find a lie angle that fits your current swing.

- Dave

**buddha33** · 07-28-2004

I agree. Obviously my results will change when I get the clubs bent. I suppose he just wants me to see the results with fitted clubs.

However, I'm getting the clubs fitted to my swing as it is now. I assume this means he will not be adjusting anything that will cause a drastic change in my swing plane.

I was just concerned about the immediacy of this project. All this said, I'm going to trump his schedule anyway by postponing the second lesson for a couple of weeks. Bent clubs or not, he taught me a couple of things I can be working on before I see him again.

**Bravo35223** · 07-28-2004

Buddha:

Are you on the tall side? Well over 6 feet?

**buddha33** · 07-28-2004

Negative. I'm on the short side - 5' 8". I also like reading and walks in the park. ;)

My instructor seemed to think we were around the same height (he's around 6' 2").

**Bravo35223** · 07-28-2004

Hmmm kind of interesting set up for someone a scootch on the short side. (Average male being about 5'9").

Most of the time the're going to recommend a flatter lie for someone of your height vs an upright lie (for golfers well over 6'). David613 at 6' 9" got 5 degrees upright for example on his new Pings.

I DO agree with some posters above that having properly fit clubs in your hands WILL help you get the most out of your lessons. Let's be honest, if your clubs truly are improperly fit - then both you and your instructor are fighting this with every swing. So getting them properly fit ASAP is definitely a good idea.

The more I think about it, the more I want that second opinion. Let's get a dynamic club check with impact tape as soon as possible. If this confirms that you need an adjustment - I'd go for it on the spot as having your clubs bent (within acceptable limits) is inexpensive and can be done fairly quickly....