Probably should be a third category: Decent. I agree with HB's qualifications for "Player". I'd say those who routinely shoot in the 80's have enough skill to be termed "Decent". And if a player can't break 90 consistantly there is so much to improve on that "Hacker" should apply.
If you even occasionally can't break 90, you're a chopper. If most of your rounds aren't under 85, you're a chopper. A player shoots most rounds in the 70-s and has a single digit handicap. That said, I know some single digits that have terrible swings but great short games. In my book, they're still hackers. You need to be able to hit your driver and irons with proficiency to be a player.
That does leave a small category in between but I don't know if I'd describe that as decent.
I've played with a lot of guys whose visual skill level is dreadful, whose swings are crap, whose overall golfing image is pukeworthy, but who shoot 85-87 every single day out.
I think mid eighties is NOT good enough to be called player.
One must REGULARLY break 80 to be called a player. Even if it's a lot of 78s and 79's. One must have shot 75 or better in his lifetime, and still break 80 at least 50% of the time, to be called a player.
IF it sounds like I have tailored my criteria to fit me perfectly, don't be ridiculous. It's all a coincidence.
Cleveland long clubs
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I posted same question on another board and got almost the complete opposite response with them saying its all state of mind and motivation to get better. I guess thats where all the hackers hang out.
I posted same question on another board and got almost the complete opposite response with them saying its all state of mind and motivation to get better. I guess thats where all the hackers hang out.
Yeah, I 'd like to know what board it was. What a bunch of politically correct bs.
I posted same question on another board and got almost the complete opposite response with them saying its all state of mind and motivation to get better. I guess thats where all the hackers hang out.
Sounds a little shottalky if you ask me, and you are correct, that place is a pillow-talking chopper paradise.
fred3 antagonizer
2010 recipiant of TRG Commendation of Excellence
Member GR Club 5K
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*Plus many more accolades that are the cause of jealousy
The easiest way to graduate to player from hacker is to get a set of GFF in the bag. But, as has been demonstrated, it's not as easy as going to ebay and putting in a bid and then waiting to win the auction. You must first prove yourself worthy to play the GFF.
This does not mean that I rate myself as a player though, even with GFF in the bag. Until I get my shitt together and start breaking 80 (on courses other than my own goat track) I can't consider myself a player.
Another good indicator is a single figure handicap. You can't call yourself a player if you get shots on more holes than you don't get shots. And anyone above 18 is an absolute chopper. Nothing would be more embarassing than playing a par 4 in stableford and telling your marker "4 a 4".
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
I play off 9 and i am a BIG time fukk off chopper. I can prove i am a chopper with the following evidence.
1. I dont have GFF blades
2. I play Ti@tleist irons
3. They are cast
4. They have cavitys
5. They have regular shafts
6. I dont use a driver
7. I cant hit a 3 iron 250 yards
8. I have a Callaway wedge
9. I own and use hybrids
10. I use a visor
On the plus side
1. I do break 80 5 out of 10 rounds (On a real course)
2. I own a Lovett Wedge, the mark of a "Player"
3. I dont use a Skycaddie
4. I own a 2 Iron
5. I own a full set of Seve Slazenger Blades, Persimmon Woods an old Wilson blade putter and an ancient leather "Bagger Vance" carry bag with which, at the last Captains day i shot a gross 82 (net 74) to come overall 3rd.
1. if your irons are anything other than MIZUNO or TITLEIST & you can't hit your driver past Corey Pavin or break 90, you're a sod-laying CAST POS paddle-playing chopper.
2. if your putter is unitized, you're a gay chopper.
3. if you can break 90, but can't hit at least 50% GIR on a regular basis, you are a hacker.
4. if you can regularly hit 50% GIR, can hit your driver 275 or more, & can break 80 at least 50% of the time, you are a player.
if you fall into #4 AND you bag GFF blades, you are a player that is not to be f'd with.
if you fall into 1-3 (especially #2) AND you bag GFF blades, you are a posing faux psude (sp) & you need a reality check.
Last edited by bjdrivers; 12-11-2008 at 04:22 PM.
Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.
The scorecard doesn't care how you broke 80? But the consensus seems to be that:
1. If you have a great swing but poor short game & don't break 80 regularly = Hacker
2. If you have a terrible swing but great short game & break 80 regularly = Still a Hacker
3. If you have a great swing & break 80 regularly = Player
kiwi, if you regularly break 80 on a regulation course, it doesn't matter if you swing like charles barkley, you're a player.
GIR% is a good factor in determining how good a player is. short game doesn't mean shiite when it comes to GIR. even for cow pasture courses like NaH's, the greens are usually small, so you have to be a good ball striker to hit them in regulation.
Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.
Depends on a lot of things. I really only think hackers can be defined by a true player. Being a +1 to -1 HDCP the last 9 years, I can spot a hacker pretty easily. Also, there's a difference between a "hacker" and a hacker. A real hacker, the kind a player can't stand, acts like he's a player...by clubs he plays, clothes he wears, personality he brings into the shop, stories he tells you know are complete garbage, etc. I'll play with a hacker any day if he knows what pace of play means and doesn't tear up the course while talking about the great feel his irons have and how much spin he just got with the pure iron he actually skulled and got lucky he hit the ball below the equator. It's the guys during club tournaments who are over a 5 HDCP that line up putts from every direction, switch irons more than twice when deciding on par 3's, are 8 over par after 9, and keep slowing real players down behind them. A hacker is also someone who has a single digit HDCP and plays pretty well on their home course but when playing at a new course, can't break 95. I know plenty of these people. All I have to do when they brag about how good they are is pick a course, new to both of us, and proceed to beat them. It also has a lot to do with tournament scores. Any hacker can shoot 75-80 on Friday afternoon. Play in a competitive local AM tournament with your areas top golfers. If you balloon you're a hacker. There are many things that define a hacker. Personally, I only use the term hacker to define those who pretend not to be. They are the ones truly worthy. From a true player.
Maybe the categories in this thread were a bit broad. I probably agree that a real player is someone who has the game to play in top flite tourneys on tricked up courses and still shoot in the 70's or better. There is definitely some inbetween ground between 'players' and 'hackers'.
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
Depends on a lot of things. I really only think hackers can be defined by a true player. Being a +1 to -1 HDCP the last 9 years, I can spot a hacker pretty easily. Also, there's a difference between a "hacker" and a hacker. A real hacker, the kind a player can't stand, acts like he's a player...by clubs he plays, clothes he wears, personality he brings into the shop, stories he tells you know are complete garbage, etc. I'll play with a hacker any day if he knows what pace of play means and doesn't tear up the course while talking about the great feel his irons have and how much spin he just got with the pure iron he actually skulled and got lucky he hit the ball below the equator. It's the guys during club tournaments who are over a 5 HDCP that line up putts from every direction, switch irons more than twice when deciding on par 3's, are 8 over par after 9, and keep slowing real players down behind them. A hacker is also someone who has a single digit HDCP and plays pretty well on their home course but when playing at a new course, can't break 95. I know plenty of these people. All I have to do when they brag about how good they are is pick a course, new to both of us, and proceed to beat them. It also has a lot to do with tournament scores. Any hacker can shoot 75-80 on Friday afternoon. Play in a competitive local AM tournament with your areas top golfers. If you balloon you're a hacker. There are many things that define a hacker. Personally, I only use the term hacker to define those who pretend not to be. They are the ones truly worthy. From a true player.
It's all relative. To the touring professionals we'd all be hackers. That being said, a legitamate 5 capper beats about 98% of all golfers and a 10 capper beats around 94% so I'll stick with the standards I posted earlier.
You just have to shoot par or better more times than not . Basically doing that considers you to be a stick but. Any where in the mid to low 70s is considered not being a hack
College's and Strick's comments were on target. The tendency is to get pretty self-focused with a question like this. During most rounds, tournaments included, I feel I'm a player. Let me tell you though, I also play rounds with guys that have true talent, that have alot of tournament experience and are many levels beyond me in many ways. When I play with them, I'm a hacker. Period. Any time I play with my 14 year old son who's in plus territory and has alot of tournament wins under his belt, sadly, I'm a hacker.
Player is kind of tough to define. There are guys breaking 80 on a regular basis who I wouldn't consider "players", and there are guys shooting 82's who I would. To me it's more a matter of ballstriking/shotmaking ability and how "clutch" they are - how they respond under pressure.
I've played with guys I would call "plodders" who just knock it 240yds off the tee every time with a little controlled banana fade and hit 10/14 fairways and 12/18 greens, shoot 76 on the day and didn't have to use their imagination once or vary their technique hardly on any shot.
It's a great way to post a respectable score but IMO it takes more than a respectable score to be a player. It takes a special knack to be able to improvise when necessary, a confidence in oneself to step up and take a risk, a knack for coming through when the heat is on. The ability to control the golf ball, make it do something other than just a stock flight. The ability to sink a few long putts when it matters. That's what makes a player IMO.
You can also pretty much tell a player from a hacker right away by the sound of their iron strikes. No matter what their clubhead speed may be - a "player" always hits the ball with a distinctively audible element of authority. SOLID. Even if you're not watching, once you hear it, you'll know who the players are.
FON
"The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee
Player is kind of tough to define. There are guys breaking 80 on a regular basis who I wouldn't consider "players", and there are guys shooting 82's who I would. To me it's more a matter of ballstriking/shotmaking ability and how "clutch" they are - how they respond under pressure.
I've played with guys I would call "plodders" who just knock it 240yds off the tee every time with a little controlled banana fade and hit 10/14 fairways and 12/18 greens, shoot 76 on the day and didn't have to use their imagination once or vary their technique hardly on any shot.
It's a great way to post a respectable score but IMO it takes more than a respectable score to be a player. It takes a special knack to be able to improvise when necessary, a confidence in oneself to step up and take a risk, a knack for coming through when the heat is on. The ability to control the golf ball, make it do something other than just a stock flight. The ability to sink a few long putts when it matters. That's what makes a player IMO.
You can also pretty much tell a player from a hacker right away by the sound of their iron strikes. No matter what their clubhead speed may be - a "player" always hits the ball with a distinctively audible element of authority. SOLID. Even if you're not watching, once you hear it, you'll know who the players are.
FON
It's a bit like the difference between hitting a golf shot and hitting a 'golf shot'. A 'golf shot' is the type of shot that is immediately apparent to anyone in eyeshot or earshot to being a supremely struck shot eg. a 300 yard drive that doesn't get touched by the wind, or a towering long iron from over 200 that dances around a tight pin. As FON has said there are some guys who shoot mid 70's week in week out who just rely on shitty little controlled cuts and hooks and a short game, but who have never hit a 'golf shot' in their life. But there are some 80's shooters who can on ocassion hit the sort of shot that Tiger would be proud to claim. From these two types of guys neither could be called a player, but the 80's shooter is the only one who has the potential to become a player.
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
All of you retards keep insulting people who "get by with their short game." I got news for you. Short game is what seperates the players from the wannabes. There is a metric sh!t-load of good ball strikers. Very few people can drain long putts/clutch putts and get up and down from awkward spots with any regularity. When 4 PGA pros were asked in GD what players' skills they wish they had, 3 said Tiger's short game.
I actually only had 31 putts today, By far my best day on the green ever
My driver however was one of my worst days ever. I was in the woods or hitting the ball on the outside heel every fuqn drive.
I made some great recoveries tho. Drive to the right behind a tree. Can't go over, cant punch to the pin, have to punch back to fairway. Then up and down from 170 out.
On a par 5 today I guess I was too close on the box. Swung and nicked the ball off the inside heel and it went like 30 yds left. Friends said take a mully. I said **** it. Duffed a 4 iron 150 yds. Then grabbed my 3wood. Smacked it pin high 10 yds right. Up n down for par.
One day it's all going to click at once and I'll shoot a ridiculous score
All of you retards keep insulting people who "get by with their short game." I got news for you. Short game is what seperates the players from the wannabes. There is a metric sh!t-load of good ball strikers. Very few people can drain long putts/clutch putts and get up and down from awkward spots with any regularity. When 4 PGA pros were asked in GD what players' skills they wish they had, 3 said Tiger's short game.
It's not supposed to come across as insulting people who get by with their short games. It's supposed to be a proclamation that while some guy can rely on his stock shot and short game to score lowest - they'd get OWNED at a game of HORSE because they can't hit much more than stock shots or slight variations of them - thus exempting them from "player" status.
A "player" can hit an acceptable shot from nearly any situation, whereas a "plodder" can only hit acceptable shots from favorable situations.
IMO that's a light-year separation in evident skill level - regardless of final scores.
As for the tour pros wishing they had Tiger's short game - of course! There are no "plodders" in the professional ranks. At that level, as I said before - even the short hitters are "players". Look at Pavin - the guy hardly hits it out of his shadow yet he has every shot in the bag, and can use them under pressure. There's a huge gap in skill between short hitting "players" and "plodders" who rely on hitting a stock shot and scoring with their short games alone.
FON
"The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee
I actually only had 31 putts today, By far my best day on the green ever
My driver however was one of my worst days ever. I was in the woods or hitting the ball on the outside heel every fuqn drive.
I made some great recoveries tho. Drive to the right behind a tree. Can't go over, cant punch to the pin, have to punch back to fairway. Then up and down from 170 out.
On a par 5 today I guess I was too close on the box. Swung and nicked the ball off the inside heel and it went like 30 yds left. Friends said take a mully. I said **** it. Duffed a 4 iron 150 yds. Then grabbed my 3wood. Smacked it pin high 10 yds right. Up n down for par.
One day it's all going to click at once and I'll shoot a ridiculous score
It WILL click one day, and you will shoot something ridiculous - then your expectations will soar and you'll suck @$$ until you become humble enough to not expect it without earning it through hard work and practice.
You're still pretty green friend. But you'll learn.
FON
"The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee
It WILL click one day, and you will shoot something ridiculous - then your expectations will soar and you'll suck @$$ until you become humble enough to not expect it without earning it through hard work and practice.
You're still pretty green friend. But you'll learn.
FON
I work 4 days a week. My 3 days off I'm either shooting 18 or at the range hitting 200-300 balls and chipping/putting for another hour.
I work 4 days a week. My 3 days off I'm either shooting 18 or at the range hitting 200-300 balls and chipping/putting for another hour.
That takes care of the practice part. The hard work you do in your brain. I like to hit balls too, and I turned 1/8 acre of hilly underbrush into my own personal practice area just for that reason. Now I can hit balls until my arms feel like falling off. The real key is having a PURPOSE to do that. You won't get better just by hitting balls - you have to improve on your weaknesses. To do that you first have to identify them and accept them. Then you have to learn what exact errors you're making and how to correct them, then hit balls using the desired technique to make it instinctive and natural.
I told you the hard work was done with your brain.
FON
"The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee
That takes care of the practice part. The hard work you do in your brain. I like to hit balls too, and I turned 1/8 acre of hilly underbrush into my own personal practice area just for that reason. Now I can hit balls until my arms feel like falling off. The real key is having a PURPOSE to do that. You won't get better just by hitting balls - you have to improve on your weaknesses. To do that you first have to identify them and accept them. Then you have to learn what exact errors you're making and how to correct them, then hit balls using the desired technique to make it instinctive and natural.
I told you the hard work was done with your brain.
FON
Part of the reason I wish I had a camcorder. Watching my swing would probably help alot.
I hit thin shots ALOT more then fat shots yet I'm more stack n tilt-esque with my swing. SnT is about good contact and if anything would produce more fat shots. I'm boggled.
Note: I'm not pure SnT, I'm my own swing but I frontload weight on my front foot and move my weight forward and down with my swing. *shrug*
Part of the reason I wish I had a camcorder. Watching my swing would probably help alot.
I hit thin shots ALOT more then fat shots yet I'm more stack n tilt-esque with my swing. SnT is about good contact and if anything would produce more fat shots. I'm boggled.
Note: I'm not pure SnT, I'm my own swing but I frontload weight on my front foot and move my weight forward and down with my swing. *shrug*
A camcorder will do wonders for your awareness. You probably won't like what you see, but the information it provides is incredibly useful. Especially if you post it online and have knowledgeable people critique it. Just remember that not all critiques will be knowledgeable.
Swinging in front of a large mirror or a window where you can see your reflection is the best though. You feel what you see in real time - and this gives you something tangible that you can take out on the course with you over time. You'll learn what each sensation means, and self-diagnosis will be much more intuitive.
If you're into S&T you should pester pingman360 - he's our resident expert.
FON
"The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee
It's not supposed to come across as insulting people who get by with their short games. It's supposed to be a proclamation that while some guy can rely on his stock shot and short game to score lowest - they'd get OWNED at a game of HORSE because they can't hit much more than stock shots or slight variations of them - thus exempting them from "player" status.
A "player" can hit an acceptable shot from nearly any situation, whereas a "plodder" can only hit acceptable shots from favorable situations.
IMO that's a light-year separation in evident skill level - regardless of final scores.
As for the tour pros wishing they had Tiger's short game - of course! There are no "plodders" in the professional ranks. At that level, as I said before - even the short hitters are "players". Look at Pavin - the guy hardly hits it out of his shadow yet he has every shot in the bag, and can use them under pressure. There's a huge gap in skill between short hitting "players" and "plodders" who rely on hitting a stock shot and scoring with their short games alone.
FON
I get what you are saying.(I didn't at first). It just surprised me to hear people saying "getting by with a short game" People with truly superb short games IMO are a lot rarer than good ball strikers. The point I was making about the pros was; as good as Tiger's ball striking is, his peers envy his short game more. It often goes unnoticed how good his short game is.
Part of the reason I wish I had a camcorder. Watching my swing would probably help alot.
I hit thin shots ALOT more then fat shots yet I'm more stack n tilt-esque with my swing. SnT is about good contact and if anything would produce more fat shots. I'm boggled.
Note: I'm not pure SnT, I'm my own swing but I frontload weight on my front foot and move my weight forward and down with my swing. *shrug*
Funny you should mention that. I just got done watching the Plummer and Bennet (S&T) DVD's. I am contemplating a S/T swing change.
P&B maintain that fat and thin shots are both caused by the same problem. The bottom of the swing arc being behind the ball. A thin shot doesn't hit the ground but catches the ball on the up-swing whereas a fat shot catches turf, then attempts to hit the ball on the upswing. Different variations of the same problem.
For getting your swing to bottom out in front of the ball, Bobby Clampett recommends drawing a line in the sand and swinging without a ball trying to make impact at the line with the swing bottom 4 inches past the line.(on the left of the line if you're right handed)
I think this is an excellent thread . Its probably the best thread that I have seen on GR. I have never seen so many great answers and explanations on 1 page with so many responses. You guys now are really starting to impress me with the knowledge you have dropped on this thread about what separates the players from the hackers. I think you guys deserve a round of applause for showing some real maturity as golfers in such a matter. Reading this thread has shown me that GR is by far the best forum on the web.. You guys are great and I like being apart of intelligent Sh.it like this. .............And thats whats up
I play off 9 and i am a BIG time fukk off chopper. I can prove i am a chopper with the following evidence.
1. I dont have GFF blades
2. I play Ti@tleist irons
3. They are cast
4. They have cavitys
5. They have regular shafts
6. I dont use a driver
7. I cant hit a 3 iron 250 yards
8. I have a Callaway wedge
9. I own and use hybrids
10. I use a visor
On the plus side
1. I do break 80 5 out of 10 rounds (On a real course)
2. I own a Lovett Wedge, the mark of a "Player"
3. I dont use a Skycaddie
4. I own a 2 Iron
5. I own a full set of Seve Slazenger Blades, Persimmon Woods an old Wilson blade putter and an ancient leather "Bagger Vance" carry bag with which, at the last Captains day i shot a gross 82 (net 74) to come overall 3rd.
As such i am a chopper and proud
Edgey
PHil Mickelson likes to use TWO drivers and we all know the result he gets with THAT.
I think NO driver is probably a better bet.
As to the bagger bag, I want a video online with you carrying the bag and saying "You got to find your game, Mr. Junuh.."
But if you break 80 now and then you are a PLAYAH, not a hacker... especially if you're coming out of bunkers with the Lovett.
Cleveland long clubs
Adams Idea Pro irons
Vokey and Cleveland wedges
Wow, this is a good thread. It usually doesn't take nearly this long to get hijacked. I'd like to state for the record that I'm a hacker (even though I prefer the term chopper, or even “One who Shovels”.) Anyhow, I know that I'm a hacker because I carry a sky-caddie, I have super-game-improvement irons, and because even though I broke 80 four times last year, I shot 98 and 96 on my home course's member's tournament last year. (I'm not too proud to say I choked.)
But I'd like to argue that a hacker like me who knows he's a hacker is far far FAR better than the hackers who think they are players. Allow me to explain.
Nothing is worse than the guy playing in front of you, from the back tees no-less, who spends 10 minutes judging the wind, tossing grass blades in the air, smelling the dirt like Russel Crowe in Gladiator and then chunks his driver 15 feet onto the lady's (excuse me) ... forward tees. Then he repeats the whole process again. I play every Sunday with a foresome of guys, all 10-18 hcps, and we finish in about 3-1/2 hours. Meanwhile, the hacker who thinks he's a player is still blumb-bobbing his fourth putt on the first hole after that amount of time.
So, if I may suggest breaking the hackers up into two categories: First, Hackers who know their hackers, and second, Hackers who think they are players.
It is my experience that slow play is usually caused by one of these six things:
1) Hackers who think they are players.
2) Crappy course design.
3) Hackers who think they are players.
4) Complete golf novices.
5) Hackers who think they are players.
or 6) Some kind of outing full of drunks.
By the way, did I mention that Hackers who think they are players cause slow play?
David Dicks,
Handicap: 11
In my bag:
TaylorMade 2007 Burner (Standard Stiff Shaft)
Callaway 5-PW Fusion WS Irons
Callaway Big Bertha II 3,5 & 7 FW woods
Callaway 54 & 60 Wedges
Odyssey Putter
You can also pretty much tell a player from a hacker right away by the sound of their iron strikes. No matter what their clubhead speed may be - a "player" always hits the ball with a distinctively audible element of authority. SOLID. Even if you're not watching, once you hear it, you'll know who the players are.
FON
do these qualify?
Last edited by bjdrivers; 12-12-2008 at 12:20 PM.
Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.
The easiest way to graduate to player from hacker is to get a set of GFF in the bag. But, as has been demonstrated, it's not as easy as going to ebay and putting in a bid and then waiting to win the auction. You must first prove yourself worthy to play the GFF.
This does not mean that I rate myself as a player though, even with GFF in the bag. Until I get my shitt together and start breaking 80 (on courses other than my own goat track) I can't consider myself a player.
Another good indicator is a single figure handicap. You can't call yourself a player if you get shots on more holes than you don't get shots. And anyone above 18 is an absolute chopper. Nothing would be more embarassing than playing a par 4 in stableford and telling your marker "4 a 4".
Could this thread be amended to the Irony thread? Not a hacker said he's not player, therefore calling himself a hacker.
Last edited by bjdrivers; 12-12-2008 at 01:21 PM.
Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.
kiwi, if you regularly break 80 on a regulation course, it doesn't matter if you swing like charles barkley, you're a player.
GIR% is a good factor in determining how good a player is. short game doesn't mean shiite when it comes to GIR. even for cow pasture courses like NaH's, the greens are usually small, so you have to be a good ball striker to hit them in regulation.
Some of the oldest, simplest courses I've seen, the 1920's pitch'n'putts, have these tiny table-top greens where if you don't STOP the ball ten feet from the pin you've got an IMPOSSIBLE up and down...
I think scoring under 80 on those qualifies you, even if you hit iron off every tee... cuz the 7 iron and in game is what makes a real playah... you gotta knock down pins and drain ten footers to break 80 on the tabletop goat-tracks.. I'd rather play a muni with a few bunkers but wide fairways and laid-down flat greens... those old pedestal greens just KILL me..
Cleveland long clubs
Adams Idea Pro irons
Vokey and Cleveland wedges
All of you retards keep insulting people who "get by with their short game." I got news for you. Short game is what seperates the players from the wannabes. There is a metric sh!t-load of good ball strikers. Very few people can drain long putts/clutch putts and get up and down from awkward spots with any regularity. When 4 PGA pros were asked in GD what players' skills they wish they had, 3 said Tiger's short game.
I agree with this and have some extra thoughts. Surely being rated a player must depend on regularly putting a great score on the card in competition! (club or otherwise). Many of us are scratch palyers on the practice ground. Sure, there are better ball strikers or better putters etc. this is true even in the pro ranks; but it is how many pars and birdies on the card that really indicates a "player". As for seemingly knocking it up the middle, missing on the fat side and getting up and down, that is COURSE MANAGEMENT!! Not a sign of a players weakness. No-one goes out every day and hits a majority of pure shots; golf is not like that. To shoot a good score you need to be a pretty solid ball striker, have a good short game and have the mental approach to adapt your game to the course being played in the conditions of that particular day. Mental approach and course management is just as, or more important than being a "pure" ball striker. I am the wrong side of 50 but still play to a 6 hcp.(on proper full length golf courses) I can't compete with young blokes who have the swing speed to hit drives 350 or hit high 3 irons to small greens, but i can still golf my ball. I wouldn't be so egotistical as to rate myself a player, but I want to point out that to play golf well a whole range of skills are needed, and if you want to shoot low scores now, and into the future and be rated a player, work on you're shots from 100, your short game and your putting. I'm pretty sure all those pros out there (who are players) do exactly that!
Last edited by oldplayer; 12-12-2008 at 01:37 PM.
Cobra ZL 9.5 Stock stiff.Sonartec SS 3.5 14*Sonartec HB-001 21* Cally Diablo Forged 4-6 nippons, 2013 x forged 7-pw pxi 5.5 TM rac 50/6 gw. Fourteen MT-28 54 & 58 S400 Daddy Long Legs 35"TM Lethal
I agree with this and have some extra thoughts. Surely being rated a player must depend on regularly putting a great score on the card in competition! (club or otherwise). Many of us are scratch palyers on the practice ground. Sure, there are better ball strickers or better putters etc. this is true even in the pro ranks; but it is how many pars and birdies on the card that really indicates a "player". As for seemingly knocking it up the middle, missing on the fat side and getting up and down, that is COURSE MANAGEMENT!! Not a sign of a players weakness. No-one goes out every day and hits a majority of pure shots; golf is not like that. To shoot a good score you need to be a pretty solid ball striker, have a good short game and have the mental approach to adapt you game to the course being played in the conditions of that particular day. Mental approach and course management is just as, or more important than being a "pure" ball striker. I am the wrong side of 50 but still play to a 6 hcp.(on proper full length golf courses) I can't compete with young blokes who have the swing speed to hit drives 350 or hit high 3 irons to small greens, but i can still golf my ball. I wouldn't be so egotistical as to rate myself a player, but I want to point out that to play golf well a whole range of skills are needed, and if you want to shoot low scores now, and into the future and be rated a player, work on you're shoots from 100, your short game and your putting. I'm pretty sure all those pro out there (who are players) do exactly that!
excellent post. i agree wholeheartedly too. example. i'm a 6, my dad is about a 15. we paired together for a 2 man scramble tourney earlier this year. it was a nice 6850 (blue tees) yard championship course.
that day we hit 12/14 fairways & 18/18 GIR. we shot a 67. needless to say that is either horrible putting or relatively lengthy birdie putts. (we reached 2 of the par 5s in two & only birdied one of them) mind you, those were large, high-stimp, undulating bent grass greens, but 5 birdies & 13 pars is ridiculous w/ those stats. shows how important putting is.
Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.
Some of the oldest, simplest courses I've seen, the 1920's pitch'n'putts, have these tiny table-top greens where if you don't STOP the ball ten feet from the pin you've got an IMPOSSIBLE up and down...
I think scoring under 80 on those qualifies you, even if you hit iron off every tee... cuz the 7 iron and in game is what makes a real playah... you gotta knock down pins and drain ten footers to break 80 on the tabletop goat-tracks.. I'd rather play a muni with a few bunkers but wide fairways and laid-down flat greens... those old pedestal greens just KILL me..
i know exactly what you're referring to. the country club where my dad lives has those stupid postage stamp sized bermuda greens, & they are all raised. the lie around them is so tight you can't hit a flop shot w/out fear of sculling it, and bump&runs are next to impossible. i've learned to just putt the damn thing if i'm w/in 20 feet of the surface. i hate greens like that.
Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.
In a more simple definition, a player finds a way to win. Whether it be short game, long game, iron play, putting, etc. I consider myself to be a player and I have been told by people who play regularly with me that they are amazed at my ability to scrap it around even on days when I'm not getting the breaks I want and not hitting things solidly. For instance during one tournament round last year I COULD NOT hit my driver. It was all over the place and left me with some horrible second shots. But, I found a way to score...with the putter, the wedges, or carved fades and draws to get it on the green. I eagled a par 5 after being in the trees with a HUGE branch ahead of me about 4 feet off the ground. I played a 3 iron off my right foot and hit a huge draw about 30 feet off the ground that went about 220 yards, rolled onto the green, hit the pin, and ended up a hair from a double eagle. It was one of those days, nothing was going well, I was in the trees all day, but I shot a respectable +3 74 that felt to me like a 104...probably my most mentally exhausting round of the year. The other 3 guys in my group, after about the 3rd hole, asked me how long I planned to keep up my miracle shots. I told them I had no idea, as they were miracles in my mind as well.
A camcorder will do wonders for your awareness. You probably won't like what you see, but the information it provides is incredibly useful. Especially if you post it online and have knowledgeable people critique it. Just remember that not all critiques will be knowledgeable.
Swinging in front of a large mirror or a window where you can see your reflection is the best though. You feel what you see in real time - and this gives you something tangible that you can take out on the course with you over time. You'll learn what each sensation means, and self-diagnosis will be much more intuitive.
If you're into S&T you should pester pingman360 - he's our resident expert.
FON
camcorder taught me something I never realized in twenty years... I was taking it too far inside going back, and then 'bouncing' at the top and coming back down OUTSIDE the line...
for years I never understood how I could hit either a pullhook or a banana ball... then one day I saw it on tape...
ever since then I've made a HUGE effort to get the club back as wide and straight as possible, and then at the top it is EASY to 'drop into the slot' and bring it down inside the target line.. whereas before, I didn't have enough room to get it further down and inside.. I was already 'bound up' from taking it back so far inside to begin with.
One day, one camcorder, the largest swing change I've ever made. And it's worked GREAT.
Cleveland long clubs
Adams Idea Pro irons
Vokey and Cleveland wedges
Hacker & proud of it. Have only shot 1 rd at par & it just so happened to be the last rd of the year at my home course. Typically I will shoot 82-85 & I am fine with that. The guys from work think I am pretty good because I have no problem beating any of them, truth is they just suck more than I do.
I don't consider scores i determing hacker vs player. Some could shoot low score yet still be a hacker. I would rather play with someone who may not drive the ball even 200 yds, or 3 putts every hole, but at least they know the etiquette of the game, have rspect for those around them. Are fun to be with & are working on improving their game. I have played with some folks who shoot some damn good scores, but they were horrible people to be on the course with. Screw up a shot every now & then & they would start screaming, toss a club, etc. Sure they had the ability to recover after that bad shot, but I would toss them into the hacker pile because they act like jerks on the course.
1. if your irons are anything other than MIZUNO or TITLEIST & you can't hit your driver past Corey Pavin or break 90, you're a sod-laying CAST POS paddle-playing chopper.
2. if your putter is unitized, you're a gay chopper.
3. if you can break 90, but can't hit at least 50% GIR on a regular basis, you are a hacker.
4. if you can regularly hit 50% GIR, can hit your driver 275 or more, & can break 80 at least 50% of the time, you are a player.
if you fall into #4 AND you bag GFF blades, you are a player that is not to be f'd with.
if you fall into 1-3 (especially #2) AND you bag GFF blades, you are a posing faux psude (sp) & you need a reality check.
BJ
I am REALLY close here, give me a break on the 275yd drive and i am in.
Hacker & proud of it. Have only shot 1 rd at par & it just so happened to be the last rd of the year at my home course. Typically I will shoot 82-85 & I am fine with that. The guys from work think I am pretty good because I have no problem beating any of them, truth is they just suck more than I do.
I don't consider scores i determing hacker vs player. Some could shoot low score yet still be a hacker. I would rather play with someone who may not drive the ball even 200 yds, or 3 putts every hole, but at least they know the etiquette of the game, have rspect for those around them. Are fun to be with & are working on improving their game. I have played with some folks who shoot some damn good scores, but they were horrible people to be on the course with. Screw up a shot every now & then & they would start screaming, toss a club, etc. Sure they had the ability to recover after that bad shot, but I would toss them into the hacker pile because they act like jerks on the course.
A Player always looks well dressed for respect of his foursome. A Player is always well with
the ladies , meaning, all ladies who like golfers like him . A Player will always keep his composeur when in high pressure situations , whether it be a snap hook or slice a player will almost always find a way to make par. And if not he will make a dam good bogey. A Player always shows respect to the ground of any golf course he has the chance to play on. A Player always finishes with a par or better on the last hole. Or a dam good bogey. A Player always knows when to sthu. A Player wont ask you what did you hit. A Player almost always finishes inside of your ball. Ummmmm yea Ill keep going. A Player buys you a beverage during or after the round even if he has won all the money. A Player if having a bad day will almost always finish in the 70s, weather it be 79 or 72 .....yea thats right. A Player will always make the golf clubs work for him. Not the other way around, and that includes any brand weather it be a Lovett wedge or a shovel. A Player very rarely makes the same mistake 3 times. A player always puts 110% into every golf shot ...EVERY golf shot. A Player always compliments lovely golf shots. A Player always hits his own ball , not some ball he found in the bush or other fairway. Unless in a match game. A Player is always fun to play golf with no matter how bad the day is going or day hes having. A HACKER HAS NO CLUE WTF IM TALKING ABOUT and disrespects every thing I have just mentioned above. And last but not least A Player doesnt give a rats bum what you think about him or his golf swing, and doesnt care to care about your golf swing . Its not a talent show ....just play some fkn golf and stop trying to look pretty. Ohhh and always remember ...........A Player doesnt use those dam computer range, laser. pinsucker, skyshitty, distance, gps fk thing thingys either. He will look at the shot and hit the iron his heart tells him to hit.
On a par 5 today I guess I was too close on the box. Swung and nicked the ball off the inside heel and it went like 30 yds left. Friends said take a mully. I said **** it. Duffed a 4 iron 150 yds. Then grabbed my 3wood. Smacked it pin high 10 yds right. Up n down for par.
I was playing in a tourney in Belgium, did the same thing off the tee on a 550 yarder.. chunked it forty yards northwest (left rough) b hitting it off the heel of the driver.
Then, uphill all the way, I hit two monster towering three woods to the middle of the green and two putted for a routine par. :-)))
Cleveland long clubs
Adams Idea Pro irons
Vokey and Cleveland wedges
You know, Beej, you have a nice tight strong move, very JB Holmes-like (better, since JB takes it back too far inside and you don't).. I can hear the nice soft click where mizuno meets premium ball in the sweet spot... all in all, the kind of sound I like to hear even when OTHER people are making it.. grip looks a bit strong, you probably hit some woopsie hooks now and then.. :-)
But... for Gawd's sake, what's with the hobo chic? Ever heard of a golf shirt? :-) You know, the alligator logo, the shirts you tuck in, the ones that look like you're employed...?
P.S. I remember you telling me about the card that gets you onto several courses.. I'm about to become a member at Bear Creek here in Dallas, a privately owned public course with two 18s.. $69 a month gets you full free range privileges and the right to play anytime for $18 including cart fee...
I figure that will save me hundreds a month vs. my current $450 membership at Hackberry, a course I haven't learned to love, where I still have to pay extra to ride... if I play four times a month I've saved at least a couple hundred bucks, and the courses are out in the trees instead of running between ugly houses...
I joined HCCC because it's inside my subdivision, but my usage hasn't justified the cost.. Bear Creek is only nine miles away and the two courses, both out in the woods with no houses, really are nice.
Your 'card' argument has swayed me. I'm going public. No more cheesy country club for me. Too expensive, and the members are jerks. :-)
Buy a golf shirt, dude.
Cleveland long clubs
Adams Idea Pro irons
Vokey and Cleveland wedges
LOL............well ive found one hacker and it aint me ......read it again . Those are just some rules that I myself have learned from some one else with more knowledge of the game than I ever will. And its a list of what it takes to become a player. You my friend must be the Hacker that dosent get what it was that I wrote. And only a hacker would respond to a post in such a lost puppy way.
oh, for some reason I can't see the second vid.. says 'private'... hope it's not a video of anybody's privates..
speaking of the sound you wanna hear at impact, check this out.
Yeah I love that sweet 'click' at contact when you pick the ball up cleanly. I nearly bought that 3 wood earlier this year, the 15* model, but then realised the 15* Launcher is still a very good club too.
I'm assuming that Dr. Jane Goodall shot the video. The swing sucks, but I am impressed that you have opposable thumbs. By the way, 1994 called and wanted its goatee back.
I'm assuming that Dr. Jane Goodall shot the video. The swing sucks, but I am impressed that you have opposable thumbs. By the way, 1994 called and wanted its goatee back.
lol HB, you're only allowed 3 aliases before you get the ban treatment, just ask spank.
Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.
You know, Beej, you have a nice tight strong move, very JB Holmes-like (better, since JB takes it back too far inside and you don't).. I can hear the nice soft click where mizuno meets premium ball in the sweet spot... all in all, the kind of sound I like to hear even when OTHER people are making it.. grip looks a bit strong, you probably hit some woopsie hooks now and then.. :-)
But... for Gawd's sake, what's with the hobo chic? Ever heard of a golf shirt? :-) You know, the alligator logo, the shirts you tuck in, the ones that look like you're employed...?
P.S. I remember you telling me about the card that gets you onto several courses.. I'm about to become a member at Bear Creek here in Dallas, a privately owned public course with two 18s.. $69 a month gets you full free range privileges and the right to play anytime for $18 including cart fee...
I figure that will save me hundreds a month vs. my current $450 membership at Hackberry, a course I haven't learned to love, where I still have to pay extra to ride... if I play four times a month I've saved at least a couple hundred bucks, and the courses are out in the trees instead of running between ugly houses...
I joined HCCC because it's inside my subdivision, but my usage hasn't justified the cost.. Bear Creek is only nine miles away and the two courses, both out in the woods with no houses, really are nice.
Your 'card' argument has swayed me. I'm going public. No more cheesy country club for me. Too expensive, and the members are jerks. :-)
Buy a golf shirt, dude.
lol dave, in the top video i'm wearing a white shirt i got when my team won a 4 man scramble for a local charity. it's a nice shirt. (peppered with sponsers)
in the bottom vid i'm wearing a Polo Golf by Ralph Lauren shirt as well as Polo Chino slacks, as well as a Polo Ralph Lauren khaki cap. i'm not sure how much more golf shirt i can get
you should be able to view the bottom vid now
Last edited by bjdrivers; 12-15-2008 at 03:54 PM.
Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.
I'm assuming that Dr. Jane Goodall shot the video. The swing sucks, but I am impressed that you have opposable thumbs. By the way, 1994 called and wanted its goatee back.
Cap'n Zinger, I like the cut of your jib. Good show.
fred3 antagonizer
2010 recipiant of TRG Commendation of Excellence
Member GR Club 5K
Member GFF Crew
*Plus many more accolades that are the cause of jealousy
It worked this time but all it showed was some husky guy masturbating with the Razorbacks' theme song playing in the background. Are you sure you posted the correct video?
It worked this time but all it showed was some husky guy masturbating with the Razorbacks' theme song playing in the background. Are you sure you posted the correct video?
Thanks for the heads up. It still says it's private and that I have to accept a "friend request." The friend request links to Arkansassersbeatingoff.com. Luckily I'm already a member.
fred3 antagonizer
2010 recipiant of TRG Commendation of Excellence
Member GR Club 5K
Member GFF Crew
*Plus many more accolades that are the cause of jealousy
I'm assuming that Dr. Jane Goodall shot the video. The swing sucks, but I am impressed that you have opposable thumbs. By the way, 1994 called and wanted its goatee back.
As the owner of a very nice 1995 model goatee, red in color, plainly visible in my own swing vid in this thread, I must say I'm disappointed not to have been zinged by the cap'n.
even angry.
FURIOUS. in a genial way.
Cleveland long clubs
Adams Idea Pro irons
Vokey and Cleveland wedges
As the owner of a very nice 1995 model goatee, red in color, plainly visible in my own swing vid in this thread, I must say I'm disappointed not to have been zinged by the cap'n.
even angry.
FURIOUS. in a genial way.
Yeah, you would be - you half beard.
But then again I'm just compensating for what doesn't grow on my chest.
FON
"The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee
As the owner of a very nice 1995 model goatee, red in color, plainly visible in my own swing vid in this thread, I must say I'm disappointed not to have been zinged by the cap'n.
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Originally Posted by Riverologist
But you'll learn.
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