|   |   |   |   |   |   |   | 

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 161
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0

    Which Iron Set for High Handicapper?

    my handi is definately a 20++. I been playing with an old beatup set of Orlimars. Now im looking to majorly upgrade. what u think?

    Nike 4D Steel
    Taylormade Burner Plus Steel
    Callaway Big Bertha 09 Steel

    If there are any other recommendations for a forgiving club let me know.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Get yourself a set of used Mizuno or titleist blades off ebay and get out on the course and play. I guarantee you that your game will improve much quicker by doing this than by gettig a set of hacker shovels like the above listed. A bad swing with blades will tell you immediately, and the precise feedback will give you a better idea of where you are going right or wrong. If you get shovels you will not really know the difference between a good shot and a bad one. May be good for your score in the short term, but your long term development will be affected. Don't listen to the guy at the shop tring to sell you a good golf game, the only way to improve is to get a set of blades and get out there and strat learning.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chillin' with my Freakamaniacs, brother.
    Posts
    2,545
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Get yourself a set of used Mizuno or titleist blades off ebay and get out on the course and play. I guarantee you that your game will improve much quicker by doing this than by gettig a set of hacker shovels like the above listed. A bad swing with blades will tell you immediately, and the precise feedback will give you a better idea of where you are going right or wrong. If you get shovels you will not really know the difference between a good shot and a bad one. May be good for your score in the short term, but your long term development will be affected. Don't listen to the guy at the shop tring to sell you a good golf game, the only way to improve is to get a set of blades and get out there and strat learning.

    +1 for GR tradition. This post almost brings a tear to my eye.

    I'll be damned if I could tell you why my sides are hurting though.



    FON
    "The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee

    Taylormade R580XD 9.5
    Taylormade Rescue Dual 19
    Taylormade rac MB TP (3-PW)
    Taylormade rac Satin TP (52,56,60)
    Taylormade Rossa Monza Corza center shaft

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature
    +1 for GR tradition. This post almost brings a tear to my eye.

    I'll be damned if I could tell you why my sides are hurting though.



    FON
    The irony is that I'm being totally serious with my advice. I honestly believe blades or players CB's are the fast track to a good golf swing. With shovels you can get bogged down in a comfort zone of getting ok results from what are average swings and you don't get motivated to improve. But hitting a low shank 50 yards right of your target with a pitching wedge certainly grabs your attention.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    i know what ur sayin but i am really tired of being a hacker. i only get to play bout 2-3 times per month. my orlimars are not forgiving at all, if i mishit even the slightest my ball goes everywhere. also i am really looking hard at the callaway diablos coming out in a couple weeks.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chillin' with my Freakamaniacs, brother.
    Posts
    2,545
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    The irony is that I'm being totally serious with my advice. I honestly believe blades or players CB's are the fast track to a good golf swing. With shovels you can get bogged down in a comfort zone of getting ok results from what are average swings and don't get motivated to improve. But hitting a low shank 50 yards right of your target with a pitching wedge certainly grabs your attention.

    I know this, and I believe the same thing (you know that). If you upgrade your set with the intention of getting better, you need to purchase clubs that presently will be slightly out of your league. You get better and grow into them.

    However, I'm just waiting for the inevitable, generic, typical DM response...

    Just wait for it.



    FON
    "The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee

    Taylormade R580XD 9.5
    Taylormade Rescue Dual 19
    Taylormade rac MB TP (3-PW)
    Taylormade rac Satin TP (52,56,60)
    Taylormade Rossa Monza Corza center shaft

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    i know what ur sayin but i am really tired of being a hacker. i only get to play bout 2-3 times per month. my orlimars are not forgiving at all, if i mishit even the slightest my ball goes everywhere. also i am really looking hard at the callaway diablos coming out in a couple weeks.
    Under those circumstances you might be better off with shovels, as long as you accept that you are sacrificing long term improvement for short term gain. I think your scores should improve almost immediately with a properly fitted set of SGI paddles, but you will then plateau and stay at that level for the long term with very little improvement.

    Of course you culd prove me wrong and keep dropping shots off your cap with the shovels. Just my opinion.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    well thats why i am here. to get tips from some more experienced players. thx and keep it comin

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    barnbougle dunes
    Posts
    3,496
    Rep Power
    20
    With the availability of slightly older sets of high quality and design on ebay it is a viable option to buy a couple of sets to see how you go. You can puchase a top notch set of players cavities for $100-$150, titleist 690cb for example, and see if they will indeed improve your game as NAH has said. Granted you would have to put in range time for this to happen. But even that is only a couple of times/hours a week after work. More achievable than getting out golfing for most of a day. When you buy this type of club off ebay you can almost be certain it is a genuine brand and not a clone. Nearly all the clones are of late model SGI irons like callaway and taylormade.
    Cobra ZL 9.5 Stock stiff.Sonartec SS 3.5 14*Sonartec HB-001 21* Cally Diablo Forged 4-6 nippons, 2013 x forged 7-pw pxi 5.5 TM rac 50/6 gw. Fourteen MT-28 54 & 58 S400 Daddy Long Legs 35"TM Lethal

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Burnham and Berrow
    Posts
    3,659
    Rep Power
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    well thats why i am here. to get tips from some more experienced players. thx and keep it comin
    PLEASE, in the name of all thats holy do not listen to some of the dribble the NAH is telling you.

    If you want to improve listen to me.

    Get to the driving range and try out some Callaway/Ping Cavity Back irons. When you have the right set up go onto e bay and get some saving yourself a lot of money.

    Try a good 3 (or even 5) wood or if you have to use a driver one with at LEAST 12 degrees of loft.

    That with a good putter will set you up to where you have a good chance of improving.

    Shite even NAH improved with a set of Cavity Backs recently.

    Almost all Pros used cavitys now, and they all earn a living from it. Like me, you are a recreational chopper, dont make the game harder than it needs to be.

    Edgey
    WITB Ping K15 Driver, Nike SQ Sumo 16 deg "Thragina", Ping G15 4,5 and 6 hybrid, Callaway BB2002 7-SW, Ping Nome Putter

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ChiselCreek
    Posts
    3,990
    Rep Power
    22
    At your caliper, try good cavity-back clubs like Callaway 16,18,20 or King Cobra... Don't get sucked in Muzino blades or any kind of blades, you will be so frustrated and give up your game. Your short games (100 yds in) and around the greens + good putting will bring down your scores... Here is what I've seen with some ego maniac 20+ handicap player: (1)play from the blue Ts (2) use stiff shaft that won't fit your swing (3) play Muzino blades or any blades... WHY...WHY...WHY...

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    You've been playing Orlimars and you are looking for something less forgiving?

    OK, go buy some Callaway Big Bertha irons, some Taylormade R7s, or some PING G5s or something and fit in with the rest of the hackers on your local course.

    If you really want to get better though, go buy you a quality set of Mizuno CBs and get out on the course and practice.
    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Oak Valley
    Posts
    7,980
    Rep Power
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Under those circumstances you might be better off with shovels, as long as you accept that you are sacrificing long term improvement for short term gain. I think your scores should improve almost immediately with a properly fitted set of SGI paddles, but you will then plateau and stay at that level for the long term with very little improvement.

    Of course you culd prove me wrong and keep dropping shots off your cap with the shovels. Just my opinion.
    I salute you for being willing to modify your initial knee jerk Pavlovian reflex response in light of the actual facts of the situation.

    Otherwise, I was going to write a letter of recommendation for you to ProStatus. I understand he is looking for a skilled assistant as a clubfitter at Dick's.......
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mt' Kidd, Kananaskis - Can't beat the mountain setting.
    Posts
    606
    Rep Power
    16
    I played the TM R7's before moving onto the MP-60's and found them to be great clubs. A combination of getting new clubs, the clubs fit for me, practice, and a lot of rounds I was able to go from shooting 105-110 to dipping below 90 regularly within a season. The price is right on those clubs right now too. GL

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Newport Beach Municipal
    Posts
    10
    Rep Power
    0
    While in a perfect world we would all have time to practice non-stop until we could hit blades comfortably and accuratly. I am also a 20+ handicap, but just got a preowned set of Cleveland TA7s on Ebay. OMG the feel and forgivness is amazing. I you must buy new clubs, you may as well get fitted, but buy something that lets you get down the course with a smile on your face. Otherwise Ebay could offer you a set of 2004 Big Berthas, for $300. This is a game we are playing and the last thing you want is to play a game with a scowl on your face. It's much more fun to watch the ball go where you want, even if the swing is not perfect. Of course this is just the opinion of a new golfer.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mt' Kidd, Kananaskis - Can't beat the mountain setting.
    Posts
    606
    Rep Power
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by dpricenator
    While in a perfect world we would all have time to practice non-stop until we could hit blades comfortably and accuratly. I am also a 20+ handicap, but just got a preowned set of Cleveland TA7s on Ebay. OMG the feel and forgivness is amazing. I you must buy new clubs, you may as well get fitted, but buy something that lets you get down the course with a smile on your face. Otherwise Ebay could offer you a set of 2004 Big Berthas, for $300. This is a game we are playing and the last thing you want is to play a game with a scowl on your face. It's much more fun to watch the ball go where you want, even if the swing is not perfect. Of course this is just the opinion of a new golfer.
    I agree. Golf is a game of progression and enjoyed at many different levels depending on where you are at skill wise and mentally committed to improving and to what level. Ignore all the flaming on this forum. It's famous for it. I think most of these low cappers on the board forget what it was like when they first started or their family members started out as well.
    Get fitted and go out and enjoy the game and your desire to learn more about the game, technique and equipment will come over time.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    The Masters
    Posts
    2,602
    Rep Power
    19
    i know what ur sayin but i am really tired of being a hacker. i only get to play bout 2-3 times per month. my orlimars are not forgiving at all, if i mishit even the slightest my ball goes everywhere. also i am really looking hard at the callaway diablos coming out in a couple weeks.
    If I could only play 2 times a month, and wasn't going to practice. I would really pay attention to Edgy. Here is my ideal hacker setup:
    1. Thriver (high loft (16*), 460cc, 42" shaft)
    2. Custom Hybrids (cut down a few inches)
    3. Custom GI irons with. Graphite shafts that vary only slightly in length from club to club (maybe 1/4"). I would use my 8iron as a starting point. That way my long irons wouldn't be that long, and I would probably use 5* between clubs to account for difference in distance.
    4. Forgiving sand wedge with 12* of bounce and a round leading edge
    5. A seemore putter ---- at least i should be able to tell if my putter face is square

    Complete Hacker Setup:
    Club Loft Length
    Driver 13* 43"
    Thriver 16* 41"
    Hybrid 19* 38.00"
    Hybrid 22* 37.50"
    Hybrid 25* 37.00"
    5i 30* 36.75"
    6i 35* 36.50"
    7i 40* 36.25"
    8i 44* 36.00"
    9i 48* 35.75"
    PW 52* 35.50"
    SW 56* 35.50"
    Chipper
    Putter
    The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Burnham and Berrow
    Posts
    3,659
    Rep Power
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    If I could only play 2 times a month, and wasn't going to practice. I would really pay attention to Edgy. Here is my ideal hacker setup:
    1. Thriver (high loft (16*), 460cc, 42" shaft)
    2. Custom Hybrids (cut down a few inches)
    3. Custom GI irons with. Graphite shafts that vary only slightly in length from club to club (maybe 1/4"). I would use my 8iron as a starting point. That way my long irons wouldn't be that long, and I would probably use 5* between clubs to account for difference in distance.
    4. Forgiving sand wedge with 12* of bounce and a round leading edge
    5. A seemore putter ---- at least i should be able to tell if my putter face is square
    Great advice there Purist, and not a hint of irony................

    Edgey
    WITB Ping K15 Driver, Nike SQ Sumo 16 deg "Thragina", Ping G15 4,5 and 6 hybrid, Callaway BB2002 7-SW, Ping Nome Putter

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    my handi is definately a 20++. I been playing with an old beatup set of Orlimars. Now im looking to majorly upgrade. what u think?
    Very simple, just do what good club players and increasingly more senior tour players are doing-- switch to large cavity back clubheads and graphite shafts. You want the shaft to be as light as possible-- since every ounce there decreases clubhead speed. You want the clubhead to be as large as possible because you will mostly miss the sweet spot.

    Overall, we should all want to be able to relax and swing with as little arm tension and grip pressure as possible, just throw the clubhead centrifugally and let it do the work. EVERY bit of muscle applied in golf is counter-productive, the casting that causes will actually generate LESS clubhead speed at impact.

    The best players on the Champion's Tour play cavity backs--more and more are playing graphite shafts. You could do worse than imitate Pavin and Erwin.

    I suggest a used set of Callaway BBs or Taylormade or Pings. Have them regripped and have fun!

    BTW, if you really want to improve quickly, take a series of lessons--and then hit ONLY 6i on the range until you have a decent golf swing. You'll spend half the cost of a driver--and your handicap could go from 20+ to 10 almost overnight--as you learn to hit fairways and greens. THE clubs you play with will make NO difference in your score.

    Larry

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    At your caliper, try good cavity-back clubs like Callaway 16,18,20 or King Cobra... Don't get sucked in Muzino blades or any kind of blades, you will be so frustrated and give up your game. Your short games (100 yds in) and around the greens + good putting will bring down your scores... Here is what I've seen with some ego maniac 20+ handicap player: (1)play from the blue Ts (2) use stiff shaft that won't fit your swing (3) play Muzino blades or any blades... WHY...WHY...WHY...
    Ego I guess. But I see those same guys go trade those in and come back with a set of BBs with graphite shafts.

    Smart people compare irons side-by-side on the range and see the night and day difference between heavy steel and light graphite shafts and between forged blades and large cavity back clubheads-- the ball flies JUST AS STRAIGHT and far longer with quite less effort. Duh! Why beat yourself up?

    Spend the money on lessons-- then do the necessary drills to ingrain a fundamentally correct golf swing-- that will make far more difference than the sticks you play with.

    Most amateurs can't do the simple "turn, plant, swing" the transition weight shift that identifies good golfers. Just learning that alone would make 10 strokes difference in a high handicapper's typical score--because he would play the same ball 18 holes--and hit half the fairways and a few greens in regulation!

    Larry

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Oak Valley
    Posts
    7,980
    Rep Power
    30
    The same issues arise in all recreational pastimes. There is a balance between now much effort one is willing or wants to do in order to improve, vs. just do the activity and try to enjoy it.

    Snow skiing is an excellent analogy. I peaked and flattened out on my learning curve many years ago. I go several days a year, and that is all. I have some nice skis that I would call "performance-recreational." They are a detuned version of a more aggressive line of skis. They're softer and more forgiving. I'm not trying to get better. I just want to enjoy the activity at my present level. I don't need stiff, unforgiving, demanding skis meant for downhill, GS, or slalom racing. I just want to cruise the intermediate runs and on occasion go down a black diamond or two.

    "One size doens't fit all"
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by dorkman53
    The same issues arise in all recreational pastimes. There is a balance between now much effort one is willing or wants to do in order to improve, vs. just do the activity and try to enjoy it.

    Snow skiing is an excellent analogy. I peaked and flattened out on my learning curve many years ago. I go several days a year, and that is all. I have some nice skis that I would call "performance-recreational." They are a detuned version of a more aggressive line of skis. They're softer and more forgiving. I'm not trying to get better. I just want to enjoy the activity at my present level. I don't need stiff, unforgiving, demanding skis meant for downhill, GS, or slalom racing. I just want to cruise the intermediate runs and on occasion go down a black diamond or two.

    "One size doens't fit all"
    I think the best analogy is to learning music and playing an instrument. Many take it up, then find it is difficult to learn to read music and then learn to play. So they either decide to play poorly, just a few notes from a few songs, or they really persist until they can do it.

    Golf is exactly the same--ask any accomplished player (who didn't start as a kid) and he will talk about the prodigious work he did. He persisted, and persisted, and persisted, far beyond what any recreational player would have done.

    Larry

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chillin' with my Freakamaniacs, brother.
    Posts
    2,545
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by dorkman53
    The same issues arise in all recreational pastimes. There is a balance between now much effort one is willing or wants to do in order to improve, vs. just do the activity and try to enjoy it.

    Snow skiing is an excellent analogy. I peaked and flattened out on my learning curve many years ago. I go several days a year, and that is all. I have some nice skis that I would call "performance-recreational." They are a detuned version of a more aggressive line of skis. They're softer and more forgiving. I'm not trying to get better. I just want to enjoy the activity at my present level. I don't need stiff, unforgiving, demanding skis meant for downhill, GS, or slalom racing. I just want to cruise the intermediate runs and on occasion go down a black diamond or two.

    "One size doens't fit all"

    The thing is - you know what the truth of the matter usually is when someone finds their current set unforgiving and then they go out and buy something ultra-forgiving... they end up practicing even less than before... and their scores don't drop a single stroke.

    So with that being said... you don't advise someone who is sick of being a 20 to get the most forgiving paddles they can find unless you qualify that recommendation with the associated truth that they will not get better, but will require much less effort to simply remain at 20 where they already are. That or they might drop 2 or 3 shots and plateau, forever relegated to the 4th flight at their club. The only real thing shovels will do for a player is erode their work ethic.

    There are no universal technological ways to improve your game, the only way to get better whether you're a 20 or scratch is to learn about your game and fix your mistakes - which only comes with practice. No matter how much you wish you could buy a game, and no matter how many people tell you that you can - it just isn't true.


    Holy snap, I just used logic to refute a post by DM... instead of the other way around.



    FON
    "The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee

    Taylormade R580XD 9.5
    Taylormade Rescue Dual 19
    Taylormade rac MB TP (3-PW)
    Taylormade rac Satin TP (52,56,60)
    Taylormade Rossa Monza Corza center shaft

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Every time I see people talking about their score improving with different sticks, I am reminded of Lee Trevino--probably 40+ years ago-- laughing at golfers buying expensive sticks and remaining barely able to break 100, still hitting them sideways off the tees and into the rough around the greens.

    He said he would bet he could break 90 on a championship course from the tips--with a "coke" bottle taped to a stick. And he did it, drove with it and also putted with it. In those days Coke bottles were half inch thick glass, of course. But he proved that it is not the bow or the arrow--but the Indian that makes the difference.

    I would bet that any legitimate scratch player could pull half a dozen sticks from the $1.00 barrel in a golf store-- and go around in a couple over, hit most fairways and most greens. Fundamentals are the ONLY thing that is important in golf.

    So spend the money on lessons--and spend your time doing drills and hitting balls on the range to ingrain a fundamentally correct golf swing. THEN play the course. If you can''t play well, go back for another lesson and repeat the cycle.

    Larry

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ChiselCreek
    Posts
    3,990
    Rep Power
    22
    [I played the TM R7's before moving onto the MP-60's and found them to be great clubs. A combination of getting new clubs, the clubs fit for me, practice, and a lot of rounds I was able to go from shooting 105-110 to dipping below 90 regularly within a season. The price is right on those clubs right now too. GL]

    If you practice and play a lot of rounds , you should be able to go from 105-110 to 95 within a season, and you don't have switch from TM R7s to MP-60s. Case in point, a friend at work took up the game a few years ago, then he stopped because of heavy workload and went for MBA program at the same time. So he just started playing again after moving into marketing. I am not a great player but I am good enough not to slow you guys down... and I give him a lot of points while playing twice a week with me and I see that he's shooting at 95 and below now after 6 months... BTW he uses Callaway X-20 irons, Maybe he could be in the 85-90 range if he played with Muzino blades... hahaha

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mt' Kidd, Kananaskis - Can't beat the mountain setting.
    Posts
    606
    Rep Power
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    [I played the TM R7's before moving onto the MP-60's and found them to be great clubs. A combination of getting new clubs, the clubs fit for me, practice, and a lot of rounds I was able to go from shooting 105-110 to dipping below 90 regularly within a season. The price is right on those clubs right now too. GL]

    If you practice and play a lot of rounds , you should be able to go from 105-110 to 95 within a season, and you don't have switch from TM R7s to MP-60s. Case in point, a friend at work took up the game a few years ago, then he stopped because of heavy workload and went for MBA program at the same time. So he just started playing again after moving into marketing. I am not a great player but I am good enough not to slow you guys down... and I give him a lot of points while playing twice a week with me and I see that he's shooting at 95 and below now after 6 months... BTW he uses Callaway X-20 irons, Maybe he could be in the 85-90 range if he played with Muzino blades... hahaha
    What I was saying was that I was able to lower my scores playing with the R7's but with feeling my game and commitment has taken a turn I decided to change clubs. Like I said before, Golf is a game of baby steps both in learning technique, developing a consistent swing, to dedication as far as time to practice and playing. There is nothing wrong with the weekend warrior playing a few times a month at most from playing CB irons if it helps then develop a love for the game and gets them on their way to hitting shots where they feel good. Development of proper technique will come after he starts enjoying the game (as I have found).

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    What I was saying was that I was able to lower my scores playing with the R7's but with feeling my game and commitment has taken a turn I decided to change clubs. Like I said before, Golf is a game of baby steps both in learning technique, developing a consistent swing, to dedication as far as time to practice and playing. There is nothing wrong with the weekend warrior playing a few times a month at most from playing CB irons if it helps then develop a love for the game and gets them on their way to hitting shots where they feel good. Development of proper technique will come after he starts enjoying the game (as I have found).
    Sorry guys, I would let you go on and on about the ego trip of blades etc. etc. but there are beginners reading these posts.

    The reality is very simple-- just walk up for a lesson from a PGA Pro and see what he says about the club you brought. He DOESN"T CARE! Ergo: the mechanics of your swing are the only thing that matters. Once he has you swinging correctly, he could replace the club in your hand with virtually any other 6i and you would hit it the same. It might feel a little different, but the contact quality and the ball flight would be the same. So what can we learn from this fact?

    Spend your money learning to swing correctly--

    There is nothing more ridiculous than an amateur making a horrible OTT movement-- with $2000 "fitted" clubs. Every good golfer says "they saw him coming," ha.

    Don't be a fool. I would MUCH rather be able to grab a few $1 clubs from the barrel --and easily beat the guy with the $2000 fitted clubs. THAT would be fun.

    Larry

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Oak Valley
    Posts
    7,980
    Rep Power
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature
    The thing is - you know what the truth of the matter usually is when someone finds their current set unforgiving and then they go out and buy something ultra-forgiving... they end up practicing even less than before... and their scores don't drop a single stroke.

    So with that being said... you don't advise someone who is sick of being a 20 to get the most forgiving paddles they can find unless you qualify that recommendation with the associated truth that they will not get better, but will require much less effort to simply remain at 20 where they already are. That or they might drop 2 or 3 shots and plateau, forever relegated to the 4th flight at their club. The only real thing shovels will do for a player is erode their work ethic.

    There are no universal technological ways to improve your game, the only way to get better whether you're a 20 or scratch is to learn about your game and fix your mistakes - which only comes with practice. No matter how much you wish you could buy a game, and no matter how many people tell you that you can - it just isn't true.


    Holy snap, I just used logic to refute a post by DM... instead of the other way around.



    FON
    I really don't care, but how did you refute me? I just said that I had achieved a level of comfort in my skiing ability (well above average, but by no means an expert) and am happy to stay there and enjoy the sport recreationally. I didn't say that I had bought an ultra-forgiving pair of skis, just a detuned and more forgiving version than a true expert's skis. (Analogy; player's cavity backs)
    I see no comparison at all between that and buying ultra forgiving golf clubs. My only point is that people are free to choose their equipment to meet their personal goals. If someone is only going to play a couple of times a month, they won't become very good, but can still have some fun getting out and playing. What's wrong with that?
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    "the only way to get better whether you're a 20 or scratch is to learn about your game and fix your mistakes -"

    I disagree. The only way to get better is to make fewer fundamental errors. If you want to get better, you must learn to grip correctly, setup correctly, backswing correctly, and downswing correctly. That means learning and then ingraining correct movements. That requires lessons for most of us- so that you see yourself through an expert's eyes. He will tell you and usually show you on video what you too often do wrong-- and then he will tell you how to fix it. He will give you drills that would accomplish that-- and then the ball is in your court.

    If you are serious you will do those drills until you have it--and then you might play the course. For many, playing the course before you have the new principle ingrained is disastrous-- because you will revert to old habits, what was "comfortable." And you will continue to erratically hit it sideways. Most amateurs never improve.

    That said, it simply doesn't matter what equipment you use. I absolutely guarantee that when you find yourself standing on the fairway 190 out with a small green in sight, big traps or water on either side, the LAST thing you care about is your golf club. You should do your best to relax and make crisp contact with the clubhead traveling on the target line-- and avoid doing something stupid like failing to post (decelerating) or simply hitting it fat or thin. There would be ZERO difference in the outcome whether you had a Mizuno blade or a Callaway BB Cavity back graphite club in your hand. A flubbed mishit is a mishit. A falling back deceleration is still the same. The fault was the swing, not the club.

    Larry

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    thx. i think i am gonna get the big bertha 08's and the the new callaway diablo driver draw, 3 wood and hybrid. i dont see why u would get a club that is harder to hit? the big bertha promotes a longer straighter more forgiving hit. if i can get the same distance why would i get a harder club to hit??

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    i understand what u guys r sayin. but i am in need of clubs so i figured i would do some research to make the game more fun. when i say im a 20++ handi that means i usually shoot around 110. i can get the whole set i am thinking about for around 1k and i got tha just bruning a hole in my pocket right now. i know the BBs wont perfect my game but i do think they will get me below 100.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Oak Valley
    Posts
    7,980
    Rep Power
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    i understand what u guys r sayin. but i am in need of clubs so i figured i would do some research to make the game more fun. when i say im a 20++ handi that means i usually shoot around 110. i can get the whole set i am thinking about for around 1k and i got tha just bruning a hole in my pocket right now. i know the BBs wont perfect my game but i do think they will get me below 100.
    Enjoy the game.
    Have fun.


    There are too many people on this board who are not mature enough to realize that everybody else isn't like them. Not everybody has the same goals, the same commitment to working hard, or taking lessons. For some, it's just an enjoyable diversion, and a chance to get together with friends or just get a little fresh air. Others are more serious and goal oriented. The game is for everyone, but some just haven't figured that out yet.

    Most of the people in my golf group are high achievers in their fields. If they can play golf well, it's just a plus. Their egos aren't invested in their golf score. For the insecure, winning is everything. In our group, we just play individual or team games for fun, bragging rights, and an insignificant cash prize. The goal is relaxation and friendship, not who is playing the best that particular day. Sure, we all try hard, but there are a few people in our group who never break 100. Nobody cares, as long as they keep moving and don't spend a lot of time looking for lost balls.....
    Last edited by dorkman53; 02-28-2009 at 06:22 PM.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    exactly. i enjoy goin out with the guys, havin some funa and drinkin a few beers

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    magnolia
    Posts
    2,040
    Rep Power
    19
    Personally, I think better equipment will help one's game up to a point. In my case, my long game isn't the greatest but I am not too bad on my short game. Was playing a set of cheap tom watson wedges and once in a blue moon I could get the ball to bite and stay on the green. Bought some new cnc milled wedges and now can spin the ball much better and don't see the ball rolling over the back all the time. Guess I could have did the old bump and run all the time but thats not always a choice is it? Getting fitted and buying the best clubs you can afford and that fit your style of game will help and damn sure won't hurt ya.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    After recent experimenting, I have a slightly different take on the blade v shovel debate. I believe that there may be a compromise. There are some shovelly clubs out there that will provide forgiveness AND feedback. When I used the Wilson Deep Reds, there were a couple of shots durng the round where I called it early as being way short as it felt like I missed the sweet spot and it felt very clunky. But to my surprise they all reached the green and one even landed on the back fringe. These shots were only very slightly shorter than flushed shots, but I still got feedback through the hands that I had hit a poorly struck shot. If I was using my Mizuno's, all these poorly struck shots would have fallen well short of the green.

    I still agree with FON's logic on the game improvement qualities of players clubs, but maybe for those who don't have the natural talent or time to practice enough to play blades, but still want enough feedback to gain long term improvement whilst not hitting it all over the course in the short term, finding a set of GI shovels that still provde feedback would be the best way to go.

    Apart from my Wilsons and an old set of Powerbilt TPS 7.0's I used to own, I can't really comment on what clubs would fall into this category, but I certainly wouldn't prescribe going out and getting Cally SGI paddles with graphite shafts. These will provide zero feedback as every shot is muted, good or bad. I would imagine any CB with steel shafts and not too much offset would be worth looking at if you are after an easier club to hit but with just enough feedback to improve in the long term.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  36. #36
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ChiselCreek
    Posts
    3,990
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    After recent experimenting, I have a slightly different take on the blade v shovel debate. I believe that there may be a compromise. There are some shovelly clubs out there that will provide forgiveness AND feedback. When I used the Wilson Deep Reds, there were a couple of shots durng the round where I called it early as being way short as it felt like I missed the sweet spot and it felt very clunky. But to my surprise they all reached the green and one even landed on the back fringe. These shots were only very slightly shorter than flushed shots, but I still got feedback through the hands that I had hit a poorly struck shot. If I was using my Mizuno's, all these poorly struck shots would have fallen well short of the green.

    I still agree with FON's logic on the game improvement qualities of players clubs, but maybe for those who don't have the natural talent or time to practice enough to play blades, but still want enough feedback to gain long term improvement whilst not hitting it all over the course in the short term, finding a set of GI shovels that still provde feedback would be the best way to go.

    Apart from my Wilsons and an old set of Powerbilt TPS 7.0's I used to own, I can't really comment on what clubs would fall into this category, but I certainly wouldn't prescribe going out and getting Cally SGI paddles with graphite shafts. These will provide zero feedback as every shot is muted, good or bad. I would imagine any CB with steel shafts and not too much offset would be worth looking at if you are after an easier club to hit but with just enough feedback to improve in the long term.
    This is an interesting write-up from a guy who always swears by Muzino *_*

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    This is an interesting write-up from a guy who always swears by Muzino *_*
    And still swears by Mizuno, if you are in the market for a set of players irons. But I am conceeding that the purity of a set of GFF weapons, hand hammered by a master craftsman, are probably not the answer for everyone, and for those who do not aspire to experiencing the ultimate in golfing equipment there are other options which still provide some sort of less unacceptable compromise than a set of full cast SGI POS CB massive offset hacker shovel like the type marketed by Callaway and Ping.

    Hope this clears things up a little.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    After recent experimenting, I have a slightly different take on the blade v shovel debate. I believe that there may be a compromise. There are some shovelly clubs out there that will provide forgiveness AND feedback. When I used the Wilson Deep Reds, there were a couple of shots durng the round where I called it early as being way short as it felt like I missed the sweet spot and it felt very clunky. But to my surprise they all reached the green and one even landed on the back fringe. These shots were only very slightly shorter than flushed shots, but I still got feedback through the hands that I had hit a poorly struck shot. If I was using my Mizuno's, all these poorly struck shots would have fallen well short of the green.

    I still agree with FON's logic on the game improvement qualities of players clubs, but maybe for those who don't have the natural talent or time to practice enough to play blades, but still want enough feedback to gain long term improvement whilst not hitting it all over the course in the short term, finding a set of GI shovels that still provde feedback would be the best way to go.

    Apart from my Wilsons and an old set of Powerbilt TPS 7.0's I used to own, I can't really comment on what clubs would fall into this category, but I certainly wouldn't prescribe going out and getting Cally SGI paddles with graphite shafts. These will provide zero feedback as every shot is muted, good or bad. I would imagine any CB with steel shafts and not too much offset would be worth looking at if you are after an easier club to hit but with just enough feedback to improve in the long term.
    This is all fine and well, and I understand what you are saying and I agree. However, I really don't think this guy is looking for "feedback" in his game. I think he is looking for the "magical" weapons that will improve his game without him having to improve his swing. My answer is this -- those weapons do not exist.

    I use to be in the same boat. My swing was bad and I kept switching clubs believing that the next set would be the answer to lower scores. I played all the supposed "greats" of high handicapping lore: Callaway X18s, PING I3s, Nickent 3DX Pros, and Taylormade R7s. Every one of them produced the same result which for me was the high 80s. It wasn't until I purchased my set of custom made Mizuno MP52s (albeit not blades, but definitely more players club than anything I have played) that I realized I had a damn good set of clubs and the only way I was going to get better was to practice and develop a good swing with these irons. The irons give great feedback and allow me to groove my swing in order to correct mishits. I learned that my swing was too shallow, something that the shovels allowed me to get away with, but did not bring consistency to my golf game. So, I learned a more downward swing that caused me to hit the ball more precisely and sent my ball on more consistently straight path. Yes, the possibilities of hitting fat are greater, but at least the ball is remaining in the fairway on mishits instead of flying into the trees.

    For me, the philosophy of "play more difficult irons and you will eventually see better results" is working. I'm very close to breaking into the 70s which is my most immediate goal for my game. BUT, I also find myself practicing more to attain that goal. Personally, I don't think your game will get any better without practice no matter what set of clubs you use. But I also know that for me, this set of irons is producing better results with practice than my former shovel set ever did. The "feel" in feedback is just far better.

    I guess in summation, from my experience, is that buying a new set of clubs will not make you a better golfer without practice. Also, if you are going to put the time into practice, then buy a players CB to start out with.

    If you are going to buy a set of clubs that will impress the hackers you play with and gain their respect, then by all means buy a set of GI clubs from Callaway, PING or Taylormade.
    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    well i do want some feedback but i do want an easier club to hit. im not tring to inpress anyone with the brand of club but im looking to have fun. i do get the chance to hit the range and do like hitting balls trying to improve my swing. i went to sports authority today and am kinda liking the callaway X-22. lil more than what i wanted to spend but i can get a new set off ebay for around $450. golf digest gives that set a gold. i know it is still a GI club and i am still thinking that a GI set is best for me at this point. my orlimar set is more of a players set i believe so i will still have those too. callaway just put the diablo irons on their website so i might wait to check them out as well i dunno or i might still go with the BB 08 or X-22 or X-20.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jacks Point
    Posts
    10,195
    Rep Power
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    well i do want some feedback but i do want an easier club to hit. im not tring to inpress anyone with the brand of club but im looking to have fun. i do get the chance to hit the range and do like hitting balls trying to improve my swing. i went to sports authority today and am kinda liking the callaway X-22. lil more than what i wanted to spend but i can get a new set off ebay for around $450. golf digest gives that set a gold. i know it is still a GI club and i am still thinking that a GI set is best for me at this point. my orlimar set is more of a players set i believe so i will still have those too. callaway just put the diablo irons on their website so i might wait to check them out as well i dunno or i might still go with the BB 08 or X-22 or X-20.
    Gidday Lonzo

    Wow you have had a diverse range of responses to a pretty straightforward question. If I had that sort of response when I first came on this forum a few years ago I wouldn't have known what to think. Anyway ignore all the bollocks about playing blades. That's coming from guys who have played this game for YEARS, have reasonably solid swings and probably started this game playing blades. At your level you are better off with a modern forgiving cavity back that will help make this game more fun and also help you improve and score better. I know a lot of low single figure golfers who play with forgiving cavity back models that others on this forum would call 'shovels'. They are very good golfers and couldn't care less that they are using so called GI clubs so at a 20 handicap you shouldn't think twice about getting a forgiving set of cavity backs.

    If you can afford the 'lil' extra I would go for the X-20 or X-22 over the Big Bertha's. Those clubs offer plenty of forgiveness too and are more of a players club. After a couple of years the BB might seem a little too big and chunky whereas a club like the X-20/22 could take you all the way down to a single figure handicap. You can't go wrong with them really.

    Good luck and let us know what you eventually buy.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    well i do want some feedback but i do want an easier club to hit. im not tring to inpress anyone with the brand of club but im looking to have fun. i do get the chance to hit the range and do like hitting balls trying to improve my swing. i went to sports authority today and am kinda liking the callaway X-22. lil more than what i wanted to spend but i can get a new set off ebay for around $450. golf digest gives that set a gold. i know it is still a GI club and i am still thinking that a GI set is best for me at this point. my orlimar set is more of a players set i believe so i will still have those too. callaway just put the diablo irons on their website so i might wait to check them out as well i dunno or i might still go with the BB 08 or X-22 or X-20.
    Whew! It is very simple. Go to a store near or affiliated with a driving range. Take a few clubs from each set out on the range and hit balls-- You will quickly learn that you hit them longer and straighter with big Cavity Back clubheads and graphite shafts--regardless of brand name. That is why the smartest senior touring pros use those!!! They want to win, guys like Hale Irwin are not even slightly interested in impressing people with their equipment.

    And then buy a used set of "off the shelf" premium clubs--from the paper or eBay, etc. once you know what you want. Get Callaway BBs or Taylormade or Ping or other equivalents. Get graphite because you can swing slower and get the same distance. A big offset can only help--the difference is purely visual-- the results are identical. Get them regripped and you're ready.

    There is nothing sillier looking on the range than a hacker with touring pro quality premium or even "fitted" sticks--with tiny forged heads and heavy stiff steel shafts.

    And there is nothing more fun than consistently hitting balls further and straighter with cavity back graphite 3i (regular or soft shaft) than the guy beside you straining to hit clubs he paid $2000 for.

    So don't be a fool. Save your money on clubs--and spend it on lessons. I strongly suggest making a few calls to learn who is considered to be among the top teaching pro in your area. Call him, go meet him. Tell him you want to learn to play golf. Tell him you know that will require several lessons over several weeks or even months. Tell him you will do the drills and practice like he suggests. Tell him you will stay with him until you have a golf game-- And then instead of a bandaid quick fix, he will begin a project to teach you a golf swing. By Summer you could be a single digit handicapper-- while playing used clubs that you paid less than $500 for--including irons, woods, and putter!.

    Larry

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wentworth-by-the-Sea
    Posts
    3,228
    Rep Power
    19
    Regardless of what one's preference in equipment may be, the most important thing is to disregard anybody else's opinion of it.

    I don't think that big game improvement irons looked any worse than the most classic blades until they started with all the appliques and gaudy colors. If they cleaned them up a bit, they'd look like golf clubs again.

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    https://bigcedar.com/golf/buffalo-ridge-springs-course/
    Posts
    3,651
    Rep Power
    22
    Which Iron Set for High Handicapper?

    see joel's sig.....
    Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by bjdrivers
    Which Iron Set for High Handicapper?

    see joel's sig.....
    Go to any golf shop that sells all the brands. Take the Six Iron from several sets out to the range and hit them one after the other. Take a Mizuno forged blade with heavy stiff steel shaft, and take steel shaft Cavity Back head, take graphite shaft cavity back heads in several brands. Hit them all, hit half a dozen with each-- and I KNOW you will settle on the lightest shaft and biggest clubheads. You will find they hit the ball longer and straighter with less effort-- and that is the golf swing.

    Bobby Jones said he "threw" the clubhead at the ball-- and that feeling can be felt ONLY when our grip pressure is almost zero, arm tension almost zero, and a big smooth turn and huge centrifugal swing.

    Take a series of lessons. Do the drills to learn the fundamentals.

    larry

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Go to any golf shop that sells all the brands. Take the Six Iron from several sets out to the range and hit them one after the other. Take a Mizuno forged blade with heavy stiff steel shaft, and take steel shaft Cavity Back head, take graphite shaft cavity back heads in several brands. Hit them all, hit half a dozen with each-- and I KNOW you will settle on the lightest shaft and biggest clubheads. You will find they hit the ball longer and straighter with less effort-- and that is the golf swing.

    Bobby Jones said he "threw" the clubhead at the ball-- and that feeling can be felt ONLY when our grip pressure is almost zero, arm tension almost zero, and a big smooth turn and huge centrifugal swing.

    Take a series of lessons. Do the drills to learn the fundamentals.

    larry

    OK, so what is the difference between a natural "swinger" and a "ball striker"? Why is it that they both can be successful in the game?
    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    This is all fine and well, and I understand what you are saying and I agree. However, I really don't think this guy is looking for "feedback" in his game. I think he is looking for the "magical" weapons that will improve his game without him having to improve his swing. My answer is this -- those weapons do not exist.

    I use to be in the same boat. My swing was bad and I kept switching clubs believing that the next set would be the answer to lower scores. I played all the supposed "greats" of high handicapping lore: Callaway X18s, PING I3s, Nickent 3DX Pros, and Taylormade R7s. Every one of them produced the same result which for me was the high 80s. It wasn't until I purchased my set of custom made Mizuno MP52s (albeit not blades, but definitely more players club than anything I have played) that I realized I had a damn good set of clubs and the only way I was going to get better was to practice and develop a good swing with these irons. The irons give great feedback and allow me to groove my swing in order to correct mishits. I learned that my swing was too shallow, something that the shovels allowed me to get away with, but did not bring consistency to my golf game. So, I learned a more downward swing that caused me to hit the ball more precisely and sent my ball on more consistently straight path. Yes, the possibilities of hitting fat are greater, but at least the ball is remaining in the fairway on mishits instead of flying into the trees.

    For me, the philosophy of "play more difficult irons and you will eventually see better results" is working. I'm very close to breaking into the 70s which is my most immediate goal for my game. BUT, I also find myself practicing more to attain that goal. Personally, I don't think your game will get any better without practice no matter what set of clubs you use. But I also know that for me, this set of irons is producing better results with practice than my former shovel set ever did. The "feel" in feedback is just far better.

    I guess in summation, from my experience, is that buying a new set of clubs will not make you a better golfer without practice. Also, if you are going to put the time into practice, then buy a players CB to start out with.

    If you are going to buy a set of clubs that will impress the hackers you play with and gain their respect, then by all means buy a set of GI clubs from Callaway, PING or Taylormade.
    Spoken like a true believer. Can't argue with such flawless GFF logic. The more I hear your argument Sooner, the more I think the answer for this guy would be to get a set of MP52's. They are probably a little more 'players' than shovels, but they sound like they still have enough GI and forgiveness to help 90's shooters get down to a 70's shooter (in your case). These are exactly the type of club most beginners would benefit with in the short and long term. Not to mention still being able to be a card carrying member of the golfing aristocracy.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  47. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wentworth-by-the-Sea
    Posts
    3,228
    Rep Power
    19
    I've spent enough on equipment in the last year alone to deserve to be shot.

    And I don't even care about improving my game.

    I just want to get the hell out of the house for a few hours, usually on Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday afternoons. I stop for takeout on the way home and don't have to cook for the wife and beagle. And the gestapo gets an easy cleanup afterward.

    I swear to God, collecting gear and playing golf are two separate and almost unrelated activities.

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Livin' the dream at the SPCC
    Posts
    8,511
    Rep Power
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick
    I swear to God, collecting gear and playing golf are two separate and almost unrelated activities.
    I totally agree on this. I like trying out and buying new stuff to some degree, but I haven't seen a noticeable correlation to my gear and what I shoot. Of course in my case, it's been awhile since I've played off the rack or low quality clubs.
    I think there is a difference between trying to optimize your gear to your game and trying to fix your game through equipment. If a chopper is hitting a weak pop-up slice every time, the new Taylor Made draw driver isn't going to make that slice magically disappear. Now if said chopper just likes the process of buying new sh!t all the time and has the money to burn, that's fine. Chopper is having a good time and enjoying the demoing/purchasing experience. If the chopper actually buys into the marketing and is getting frustrated when the results don't match the promises, that's a whole different problem.
    If a money-baller with a solid repeatable swing is examining driver shafts to optimize spin, launch, etc., that's a worthwhile endeavor, provided said money-baller is using proper tools to measure his results. Otherwise he is just pissing away cash blindly and not allowing himself to get used to his equipment.
    fred3 antagonizer
    2010 recipiant of TRG Commendation of Excellence
    Member GR Club 5K
    Member GFF Crew

    *Plus many more accolades that are the cause of jealousy

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ko'olau Golf Club
    Posts
    100
    Rep Power
    19
    Buy whatever you want.

    But you'll shed a lot of strokes by practicing your short game (chipping, pitching and putting).

    The rest is about getting out and playing, and having fun.
    Kind Regards,
    bubbha70
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Titleist 905R (9.5*)
    Bobby Jones 3W (15*)
    Bobby Jones 5W (19*)
    Titleist 695MB (3 - PW)
    Titleist Vokey Wedges [56* and 60*]
    Odyssey White Hot XG #7
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hit the damn ball!

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    OK, so what is the difference between a natural "swinger" and a "ball striker"? Why is it that they both can be successful in the game?
    Well, maybe I have an advantage in that Golf Labs is nearby. We can go over and watch them test clubs using the robot swinging machine.

    The first thing you notice is that the "wrist" is a free swivel. It has no ability to "hit." It can exert NO leverage on the clubhandle. It just swings the clubhead centrifugally like a weight on the end of a rope; it cannot bend the shaft. And it is so accurate that it can drop balls on a spot 200 yards out--enough to wear out the grass!

    So my conclusion is that golf club manufacturers expect golfers to swing like that-- to grip it so lightly that they can feel the clubhead-- that their light grip will allow gravity and centrifugal forces to align the clubhead before impact.

    So I conclude that there are smooth centrifugal club swingers (all good golfers) and there are those who will eventually learn to swing like that--or quit.

    The best of the best who ever played talked about their extremely light grip pressure "like you would hold a baby bird," (Sam Snead) and their "ragdoll" arm tension. (Jack Nicklaus). The greats learned that ONLY almost totally relaxed muscles can produce a good golf swing-and that there is no "hit" in a good golf swing. Many practice swinging with eyes closed to memorize the feeling of having no HIT at impact.

    They worked avoid any and all tension-- And to increase tension in those they wanted to beat! It works! We have all watched someone tense up and beat themselves.

    Larry

  51. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Although my contempt for the Hawk as a person is well established, I can't ignore his obvious golfing skill. One of the tips he has given is the use of the right thumb in the grip. Lot's of players hold the club with the right thumb resting on the shaft pointing straight down (I've noticed nearly all high handicap choppers do this). According to Hogan, this creates tension in the forearms and kills any chance of a relaxed swing. He said that placing the right thumb gently to the side and not touching the shaft relaxes all the muscles in the forearm and allows a free flowing swing. I've also heard Seve use the image of gripping the club like a tube of toothepaste. If the toothpaste comes out you are gripping too hard.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  52. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    ok i got it narrowed down to what i like and price but cannot decide....Callaway X-20 or Taylormade Burner Plus. what u think

  53. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    ok i got it narrowed down to what i like and price but cannot decide....Callaway X-20 or Taylormade Burner Plus. what u think

    I have to take the 5th on this one . . . . . .
    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

  54. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chillin' with my Freakamaniacs, brother.
    Posts
    2,545
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by dorkman53
    I really don't care, but how did you refute me? I just said that I had achieved a level of comfort in my skiing ability (well above average, but by no means an expert) and am happy to stay there and enjoy the sport recreationally. I didn't say that I had bought an ultra-forgiving pair of skis, just a detuned and more forgiving version than a true expert's skis. (Analogy; player's cavity backs)
    I see no comparison at all between that and buying ultra forgiving golf clubs. My only point is that people are free to choose their equipment to meet their personal goals. If someone is only going to play a couple of times a month, they won't become very good, but can still have some fun getting out and playing. What's wrong with that?

    I must've misinterpreted the meaning of the word analogy. I thought it meant you were talking about skiing and inferring that what you were saying could also be said of golf. I guess I read it wrong.

    Still, the intent of improving changes the circumstances, as you can only go so far with equipment that has corrections built into it for mistakes you're likely going to be making less as you start to improve. One thing I've learned from my own 22 years of playing, is that as you get better you tend to mishit the ball more towards the heel than the toe, which means more unnecessary volume and mass out towards the toe of the club on larger head designs typical of GI or SGI models. Also, offset clubs are designed to turn over easily - to help square up that OTT move that most players who NEED GI technology are guilty of making. Once you get better and start hitting the ball towards the heel - these irons become hook machines - eliminating the more controllable fade shot altogether, or at the very least making it unreliable enough to avoid attempting it. So now you're stuck with a draw shape which never sits down and sometimes flies 20 yards more than you intended instead of a swiftly sitting gentle fade which obeys your commands instead of turning into a dastardly duck-hook. Compare that to my tiny "dual cavity back" *cough* butterknives that are the TM rac MB TP's which have nearly no offset and mass biased behind the point of impact instead of towards the toe which I never make contact with anyways - and now I can stripe it down a 2-lane road if I want to - because the clubs aren't fixing the mistakes I'm no longer making.

    Can you agree with this? Sh!t - it's as much sense as I've ever tried to make in this argument...

    I have always felt that it depends on what an individual's actual problems are which solutions they should attempt to apply. Just taking a blanket approach such as "Your handicap is high so you need more GI technology" never ever sat well with me for this reason. The REAL problem is that you have to accept GI technologies as package deals - you get a CB, then you get loads of offset, or a bigger clubhead and even MORE offset if you choose larger SGI. That's the REAL problem. If players could customize which GI technologies they wanted to have in their club instead of accepting the generic 3-for-1 the way they sell it, then I'd have no real objections to players who have chosen to improve making use of specific GI technology. It's the available combinations of options that leave me feeling as if you almost MUST be some kind of chopper for the tech to actually BENEFIT your scores. It also happens to be the most overpriced segment of golf products on the market, which can equate to some seriously costly mistakes once you fix the swing flaw that made one of those specific GI technologies work for you at the time of purchase.

    This is why I feel improving players should buy clubs that are LESS forgiving than the set they are replacing (no, I did NOT just recommend that EVERYONE should buy blades). You want to improve, you will need room to grow. Just like those pants your mother bought you when you were 6 that were waaaaay huge, but you couldn't fit into them anymore once you turned 7.

    Just a little food for thought, not trying to simply echo the typical droning response to this question.

    PS: Sorry if I got you wound up earlier. I was just ribbing on you. All in good fun.



    FON
    "The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee

    Taylormade R580XD 9.5
    Taylormade Rescue Dual 19
    Taylormade rac MB TP (3-PW)
    Taylormade rac Satin TP (52,56,60)
    Taylormade Rossa Monza Corza center shaft

  55. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    why? u dont like either?

  56. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature
    I must've misinterpreted the meaning of the word analogy. I thought it meant you were talking about skiing and inferring that what you were saying could also be said of golf. I guess I read it wrong.

    Still, the intent of improving changes the circumstances, as you can only go so far with equipment that has corrections built into it for mistakes you're likely going to be making less as you start to improve. One thing I've learned from my own 22 years of playing, is that as you get better you tend to mishit the ball more towards the heel than the toe, which means more unnecessary volume and mass out towards the toe of the club on larger head designs typical of GI or SGI models. Also, offset clubs are designed to turn over easily - to help square up that OTT move that most players who NEED GI technology are guilty of making. Once you get better and start hitting the ball towards the heel - these irons become hook machines - eliminating the more controllable fade shot altogether, or at the very least making it unreliable enough to avoid attempting it. So now you're stuck with a draw shape which never sits down and sometimes flies 20 yards more than you intended instead of a swiftly sitting gentle fade which obeys your commands instead of turning into a dastardly duck-hook. Compare that to my tiny "dual cavity back" *cough* butterknives that are the TM rac MB TP's which have nearly no offset and mass biased behind the point of impact instead of towards the toe which I never make contact with anyways - and now I can stripe it down a 2-lane road if I want to - because the clubs aren't fixing the mistakes I'm no longer making.

    Can you agree with this? Sh!t - it's as much sense as I've ever tried to make in this argument...

    I have always felt that it depends on what an individual's actual problems are which solutions they should attempt to apply. Just taking a blanket approach such as "Your handicap is high so you need more GI technology" never ever sat well with me for this reason. The REAL problem is that you have to accept GI technologies as package deals - you get a CB, then you get loads of offset, or a bigger clubhead and even MORE offset if you choose larger SGI. That's the REAL problem. If players could customize which GI technologies they wanted to have in their club instead of accepting the generic 3-for-1 the way they sell it, then I'd have no real objections to players who have chosen to improve making use of specific GI technology. It's the available combinations of options that leave me feeling as if you almost MUST be some kind of chopper for the tech to actually BENEFIT your scores. It also happens to be the most overpriced segment of golf products on the market, which can equate to some seriously costly mistakes once you fix the swing flaw that made one of those specific GI technologies work for you at the time of purchase.

    This is why I feel improving players should buy clubs that are LESS forgiving than the set they are replacing (no, I did NOT just recommend that EVERYONE should buy blades). You want to improve, you will need room to grow. Just like those pants your mother bought you when you were 6 that were waaaaay huge, but you couldn't fit into them anymore once you turned 7.

    Just a little food for thought, not trying to simply echo the typical droning response to this question.

    PS: Sorry if I got you wound up earlier. I was just ribbing on you. All in good fun.



    FON
    I'm sure I probably agree with this, but if I see a paragraph more than 5 senten ces long, I quit it. I need the Reader's Digest version, please . . . . . . .
    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

  57. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chillin' with my Freakamaniacs, brother.
    Posts
    2,545
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    I'm sure I probably agree with this, but if I see a paragraph more than 5 senten ces long, I quit it. I need the Reader's Digest version, please . . . . . . .

    Irony is when one of your hobbies is posting on a message board but you loathe reading.

    edit: BTW, my largest paragraph has 6 sentences. Of course I did forget that I'm likely using a much higher resolution than the majority of folks on here (1920x1200) and since my largest paragraph is only 5 lines on my monitor... I guess I should've realized... I will try to be more considerate in the future.



    FON
    Last edited by FreakOfNature; 03-03-2009 at 09:35 PM.
    "The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be." - Bruce Lee

    Taylormade R580XD 9.5
    Taylormade Rescue Dual 19
    Taylormade rac MB TP (3-PW)
    Taylormade rac Satin TP (52,56,60)
    Taylormade Rossa Monza Corza center shaft

  58. #58
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ChiselCreek
    Posts
    3,990
    Rep Power
    22
    I have Callaway X-16 and I like it a lot, so I am biased, I would vote for X-20, especially its customers service department is second to none

  59. #59
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Livin' the dream at the SPCC
    Posts
    8,511
    Rep Power
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    I have Callaway X-16 and I like it a lot, so I am biased, I would vote for X-20, especially its customers service department is second to none
    How often do you call on Callaway's customer service? If it's more than once in your lifetime, you are either unlucky or Cally makes stuff that breaks a lot.
    fred3 antagonizer
    2010 recipiant of TRG Commendation of Excellence
    Member GR Club 5K
    Member GFF Crew

    *Plus many more accolades that are the cause of jealousy

  60. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    How often do you call on Callaway's customer service? If it's more than once in your lifetime, you are either unlucky or Cally makes stuff that breaks a lot.

    Very well thought out. I applaud intelligent efforts.

    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

  61. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Location, Location.
    Posts
    11,935
    Rep Power
    32
    I called Callaway last night and they sent over some customer service staff early this a.m. to cook breakfast for me. After breakfast they're washing my car.

    Before I agree they're second to none, I want to see how good a job they do on my taxes.
    GR lives...

  62. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    I called Callaway last night and they sent over some customer service staff early this a.m. to cook breakfast for me. After breakfast they're washing my car.

    Before I agree they're second to none, I want to see how good a job they do on my taxes.
    For what it would cost me to play their shite, they'd better give good head, too . . . .
    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

  63. #63
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    https://bigcedar.com/golf/buffalo-ridge-springs-course/
    Posts
    3,651
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    ok i got it narrowed down to what i like and price but cannot decide....Callaway X-20 or Taylormade Burner Plus. what u think
    Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.

  64. #64
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    The Masters
    Posts
    2,602
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by bjdrivers
    Jesus! Where did u get that picture? That reminds me of my pledge days at Virginia Tech.....It is physically impossible to drink a gallon of milk and not hurl. Fun Times.
    The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.

  65. #65
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Whew! All that theory about golf clubs--and not a word about learning to swing correctly.

    I KNOW that any of us can walk up to a teaching pro and start talking that crap and he will listen politely, try not to laugh out loud, then say, "ok, take your stance." He will not care a wit about which clubs you use-- because he knows the club brand or type, even if you brought ancient rusty forged blades, mean only 1% of the 99% that is your swing itself.

    SPEND THE MONEY ON LESSONS! Learn to make a fundamentally correct golf swing and the clubs you use won't matter. I think every experienced golfer here knows quite well that a really good golfer could easily shoot scratch with K-Mart specials-- or a mismatched batch from the $1.00 barrel. He would take ALL your money even when you you play your $2000 matched set of fitted sticks.

    The best photographs in the world were taken with a camera that is essentially worthless today, just trash when compared to a $2000 Nikon.

    The most beautiful music was recorded on instruments that would be worthless today except as antiques.

    Bobby Jones and Sam Snead shot the same scores at Augusta as they shoot today-- with golf clubs we would find unplayable-- and dead balls with unpredictable bounces and trajectory. They overcame that.

    So it is the Indian--and not the bow and arrow.

    Spend the money and time learning to play the game.

    Larry

  66. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Pebble
    Posts
    6
    Rep Power
    0
    I agree with Larry . Taking lessons from a good source changed my game. You can hit anyclub with the proper swing and it just takes a litte time

  67. #67
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Livin' the dream at the SPCC
    Posts
    8,511
    Rep Power
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    For what it would cost me to play their shite, they'd better give good head, too . . . .
    Here's a nice little link to this discussion in years past on GR. It gets good about halfway down.
    http://forums.golfreview.com/showthr...light=callaway
    There is actually a better one around that time that I can't find now where I convinced footballking that I got Callaway to give me a new set of clubs because my old, non-Callaway clubs weren't workable enough.
    fred3 antagonizer
    2010 recipiant of TRG Commendation of Excellence
    Member GR Club 5K
    Member GFF Crew

    *Plus many more accolades that are the cause of jealousy

  68. #68
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    Here's a nice little link to this discussion in years past on GR. It gets good about halfway down.
    http://forums.golfreview.com/showthr...light=callaway
    There is actually a better one around that time that I can't find now where I convinced footballking that I got Callaway to give me a new set of clubs because my old, non-Callaway clubs weren't workable enough.

    Hmmm . . . . I think I'll ask Lyle if they ever gave him head . . . . . phuck the headcover, I want head . . . .
    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

  69. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Location, Location.
    Posts
    11,935
    Rep Power
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Whew! All that theory about golf clubs--and not a word about learning to swing correctly.

    I KNOW that any of us can walk up to a teaching pro and start talking that crap and he will listen politely, try not to laugh out loud, then say, "ok, take your stance." He will not care a wit about which clubs you use-- because he knows the club brand or type, even if you brought ancient rusty forged blades, mean only 1% of the 99% that is your swing itself.

    SPEND THE MONEY ON LESSONS! Learn to make a fundamentally correct golf swing and the clubs you use won't matter. I think every experienced golfer here knows quite well that a really good golfer could easily shoot scratch with K-Mart specials-- or a mismatched batch from the $1.00 barrel. He would take ALL your money even when you you play your $2000 matched set of fitted sticks.

    The best photographs in the world were taken with a camera that is essentially worthless today, just trash when compared to a $2000 Nikon.

    The most beautiful music was recorded on instruments that would be worthless today except as antiques.

    Bobby Jones and Sam Snead shot the same scores at Augusta as they shoot today-- with golf clubs we would find unplayable-- and dead balls with unpredictable bounces and trajectory. They overcame that.

    So it is the Indian--and not the bow and arrow.

    Spend the money and time learning to play the game.

    Larry

    Larry, your infomercial-speak is almost ready for 4am on the TGC. Have you decided when to make your transition on GR from well-intentioned poster to saleshole?

    http://www.rulate.org/trainingaidcreator.htm

    You live in Rancho Santa Fe. Did you know any of the Heaven's Gate guys?
    GR lives...

  70. #70
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    Larry, your infomercial-speak is almost ready for 4am on the TGC. Have you decided when to make your transition on GR from well-intentioned poster to saleshole?

    http://www.rulate.org/trainingaidcreator.htm

    You live in Rancho Santa Fe. Did you know any of the Heaven's Gate guys?
    Yeah, that house was (gone now) about a mile from here. Phil Mickelson is my neighbor - Those guys were hackers. So we drove over and gave them a choice--either take a series golf swing lessons from Tina or drink this! The rest is history.

    Larry

  71. #71
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Location, Location.
    Posts
    11,935
    Rep Power
    32
    You live in The Bridges? Nice course and community. How many trash cans do the Mickelsons leave at the curb on pick-up day?
    GR lives...

  72. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    I live in Rancho Santa Fe near The Bridges (which are not in Rancho Santa Fe proper). Phil lives in Carmel Valley now. He sold that big white elephant and moved on. I belong to Morgan Run CC --about 5 miles West. Has the best range and practice areas in San Diego area. I played tennis there for years, then upgraded to golf about 6 years ago. His sister Tina taught there briefly--until guys learned that she is about a 15.

    Larry

  73. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Location, Location.
    Posts
    11,935
    Rep Power
    32
    I played Morgan Run, when it was Whispering Palms, the afternoon of my bachelor party. It's pretty much the last thing I remember from that day.

    I was aware The Bridges was outside the covenant, but I didn't know PM had left. I'd guess he stayed until he fulfilled his obligations with the developers.

    How are memberships doing? Got friends in Santa Luz and it's tough going there.
    GR lives...

  74. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jacks Point
    Posts
    10,195
    Rep Power
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    Hmmm . . . . I think I'll ask Lyle if they ever gave him head . . . . . phuck the headcover, I want head . . . .
    Well Lyle never stated that they actually gave him head but he did admit he was getting a hard on from his X-18's.

    http://forums.golfreview.com/showthr...79040#poststop

    Man Lyle was really gushing about Callaway back then wasn't he? BEST, STRAIGHTEST driver he's EVER hit and getting wood from the X-18 irons.

    Then again, Sooner, you've admitted the same thing about your 52's???
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  75. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jacks Point
    Posts
    10,195
    Rep Power
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    why? u dont like either?
    Lonzo some guys on this site insist that irons have to be either blades or small player cavity backs that are as close to blades as possible. Oh yeah and they also HAVE to be forged, not cast as those two models are.

    There's no point asking their opinion as they will just diss the models you are suggesting.

    They're both great irons. Just decide for yourself. There's little to choose between them in terms of performance so it comes down to personal preference. Callaway has great customer service as others have stated and may hold their value a little better too as Taylormade tend to bring out a new model every six months. In a couple of years the Burner irons will be forgotten whereas the Callaway X range is a popular model that dates back years. In a couple of years the X-20 will still be a well known model. They'll just be up to the X-24 or X-26 by then.

    So if resale value is a concern that might swing it towards the Callaways otherwise just choose which you like better. Also check out the shafts offered in both. I think the Callaways come with True Temper Dynamic Gold shafts which is a quality shaft whereas some of the TM models have some cheap lightweight shaft in them. Unless they are the tour version.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  76. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wentworth-by-the-Sea
    Posts
    3,228
    Rep Power
    19
    There's a depression just getting under way.
    Now's no time to be taking up golf.
    If you've got disposable cash, buy krugerrands for christ's sake..

  77. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    I played Morgan Run, when it was Whispering Palms, the afternoon of my bachelor party. It's pretty much the last thing I remember from that day.

    I was aware The Bridges was outside the covenant, but I didn't know PM had left. I'd guess he stayed until he fulfilled his obligations with the developers.

    How are memberships doing? Got friends in Santa Luz and it's tough going there.
    Not good at Santa Luz-- but as your friends will confirm, that has always struggled. Morgan Run and Lomas Santa Fe CC are hanging in, even getting new members at $35k. MR has very nice new fitness center. Fairbanks is slow--2 nice courses now--but their downstroke is $95k with $1k month plus $400 quarterly against dinners. Crosby has never had more than a few hundred members and those were nearly all corporate, Sony executives, etc. who seldom play. In my experience, even Saturday morning, there is nobody there, not enough for any sort of organized tournament, etc. Del Mar CC is coasting along-- Ms. Paulson reportedly is happy to get rid of any member who complains about anything. Bill Gates is a member there and has several $5M+ mansions inside a guarded compound which itself is inside the guarded compound for DMCC. He drops in by helicopter occasionally.

    This area home prices have been steady-- but quite wisely few are trying to sell into this market. Buyers in the $2M+ range usually don't need to finance.

    Larry

  78. #78
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    magnolia
    Posts
    2,040
    Rep Power
    19
    Jeez.Guess my $520 a year unlimited golf membership must be a real shitey course or else golf is like everything else in california, way overpriced in the land of fruits and nuts. Eighteen hole course built in the 1920's with a halfway decent layout.

  79. #79
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by jt1135
    Jeez.Guess my $520 a year unlimited golf membership must be a real shitey course or else golf is like everything else in california, way overpriced in the land of fruits and nuts. Eighteen hole course built in the 1920's with a halfway decent layout.
    Well, it is just simple economics. Where nearly any vacant land is worth $1MIL+ per acre and water alone costs millions each year to maintain a golf course-- the annual dues must be high for private clubs OR the daily rate must be high on public courses. Torrey Pines (on land owned by the city of San Diego for years), charges $95+ for a tee time if you are not a San Diego city resident. The new "The Crossings" in Carlsbad cost $70 Mil to build and now they charge $90+ green fees--and still losing money!

    But then today in early March it will be 65 degrees, low humidity, no wind, no clouds, no bugs. In July most days will be 70 degrees, low humidity, no wind, no clouds, no bugs. There is a reason the entire Earth would prefer to live and golf here.

    Larry

  80. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Location, Location.
    Posts
    11,935
    Rep Power
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Not good at Santa Luz-- but as your friends will confirm, that has always struggled. Morgan Run and Lomas Santa Fe CC are hanging in, even getting new members at $35k. MR has very nice new fitness center. Fairbanks is slow--2 nice courses now--but their downstroke is $95k with $1k month plus $400 quarterly against dinners. Crosby has never had more than a few hundred members and those were nearly all corporate, Sony executives, etc. who seldom play. In my experience, even Saturday morning, there is nobody there, not enough for any sort of organized tournament, etc. Del Mar CC is coasting along-- Ms. Paulson reportedly is happy to get rid of any member who complains about anything. Bill Gates is a member there and has several $5M+ mansions inside a guarded compound which itself is inside the guarded compound for DMCC. He drops in by helicopter occasionally.

    This area home prices have been steady-- but quite wisely few are trying to sell into this market. Buyers in the $2M+ range usually don't need to finance.

    Larry
    Del Mar, La Jolla and their satellites are likely to do better than most places, but the depression will end up affecting us all.

    Here in OC the better private clubs are weathering things ok so far, but the lesser ones are under severe pressure.
    GR lives...

  81. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    "Here in OC the better private clubs are weathering things ok so far, but the lesser ones are under severe pressure"

    I am a 'Signature Gold" member of Clubcorp. In your area our courses include Aliso Viejo and Cota De Caza. We often go over to Palm Springs and play Mission Hills and Indian Wells and others--and to Las Vegas for Bear's Best, and then playing the nice courses in PGA West. Doing that May 1-3

    Several friends and I plan to play Cota De Caza again soon-- two great Robert Trent Jones courses, nice CC plant, etc.

    Next Saturday we are playing Redhawk in Temecula, CA. I belong to a Golf Association that books such great courses a year in advance.

    Larry

  82. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    ok well i got Callaway X-22's today and a Callaway X Tour 56 degree. A new Sports Authority opened up and gave 20% off entire purchase on the grand opening so i got a really good deal. will be hitting them at the local par 3 9 hole tomorrow.

  83. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Jacks Point
    Posts
    10,195
    Rep Power
    29
    Congratulations Lonzo. Great set of sticks. I'm sure you will be pleased with them. Nice wedge too. I have the 58 degree model.

    Let us know how your first time out with them goes.

    If that sale is still on you may want to consider adding a 50-52 degree wedge to fill the gap between your pitching wedge and sand wedge. Your pitching wedge is probably about 46 degrees which leaves a 10 degree gap to your sand wedge. Just an idea?
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  84. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    ok will do thx for the tip on an approach wedge

  85. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    0
    didnt even pay attention. i opened my clubs and had the 4-S. so i took back the 56 and got a 52 callaway x tour. rained all day today but i have a tee time for the morning

  86. #86
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ChiselCreek
    Posts
    3,990
    Rep Power
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by lonzo
    ok well i got Callaway X-22's today and a Callaway X Tour 56 degree. A new Sports Authority opened up and gave 20% off entire purchase on the grand opening so i got a really good deal. will be hitting them at the local par 3 9 hole tomorrow.
    Can't go wrong with X-22 irons. I have both Callaway X-16 (primary) and 2002 iron sets. Can't complain when I can hit them straight and accurate. In fact X-16 set fits me so well that it will stay in my bag for another 10 yrs *_*

  87. #87
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    fraser valley
    Posts
    176
    Rep Power
    16
    I agree with you Larry I would bet that many of these educated veteran golfers at one point in time has probably had lessons.I would like to know how many pga pros use the very expensive honma clubs.If the club is what makes the golfer,then the more expebsive the club the better the golf,yes/no.Educate me.Thanks for your time.dano

  88. #88
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Location, Location.
    Posts
    11,935
    Rep Power
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    " In your area our courses include Aliso Viejo and Cota De Caza. We often go over to Palm Springs and play Mission Hills and Indian Wells and others--and to Las Vegas for Bear's Best, and then playing the nice courses in PGA West. Doing that May 1-3

    Several friends and I plan to play Cota De Caza again soon-- two great Robert Trent Jones courses, nice CC plant, etc.

    Next Saturday we are playing Redhawk in Temecula, CA. I belong to a Golf Association that books such great courses a year in advance.

    Larry
    The Coto tracks are pretty good, particularly the North Course. Aliso Viejo wasn't bad when it had a range and three nines, but it was chopped up for homes and now it's disappointing. Developers are evil. They'll destroy anything to make a few bucks.

    Redhawk's a fun track. Bear's Best is terrific.
    GR lives...

  89. #89
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by dano8238
    I agree with you Larry I would bet that many of these educated veteran golfers at one point in time has probably had lessons.I would like to know how many pga pros use the very expensive honma clubs.If the club is what makes the golfer,then the more expebsive the club the better the golf,yes/no.Educate me.Thanks for your time.dano
    I have seen several top players in my golf club go buy Mizunos or Titleist or other forged blades with heavy steel STIFF shafts... And shoot 10 strokes worse! Their average distance was 10+ yards shorter even when they swung out of their shoes!

    And then they went back and traded those for cavity back graphites-- Callaway BB, etc. and started playing more like Hale Irwin (the winningest player on the Champion's Tour).

    In general, we should be working to swing with the loosest grip pressure, least arm tension. The golf swing is about relaxation-- the more relaxed we are, the easier it is to turn. The better our turn, the easier it is to swing on plane and effect the late release that is the sign of effortless power and accuracy.

    Graphite shafts with Oversize Cavity back heads are easier to hit and they create more distance for the same effort--duh! You can back off to 3/4 effort and still hit greens!

    Shaft weight is analogous to "unsprung" weight in a racing car. It is just overhead that produces nothing useful.

    Larry

  90. #90
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    https://bigcedar.com/golf/buffalo-ridge-springs-course/
    Posts
    3,651
    Rep Power
    22
    the problem there is that irons aren't made for distance. they are made for distance control, trajectory control, spin control, & accuracy. if someone is playing graphite shafts in their irons for length, then they most likely can't hit the broad side of a barn, much less the sweet spot. they probably have a swing speed slower than my 2 year old's tricycle. maybe they want to fly a green with an 8 iron from 130 yards to impress their weekend chopper buddies?

    my dad had cowlaway BB irons w/ those stock chopper graphite shafts (RCH or something like that) several years ago. for shi.ts & giggles i used them for a round. talk about inconsistency on distance, i would fly a green, then come up short the next with a different iron, both on well struck shots.

    then you have to consider the offset that most GI & SGI irons have. that's strictly made to help weekend hacks cure a slice, nothing more. yes, you can work a ball with offset fred flinstone paddles with wide soles, but it's a lot harder to do than with blades or player's cbs. they are also made to help chops get the ball up in the air.

    i have no problem with weekend hacks wanting to play clubs that will allow them to get around the course w/out embarrassing themselves too bad (that should also keep them from holding up better players), but if one wants to actually improve their game (ie improve their ball striking) they will someday want to actually be able to control their trajectory, distance, & spin which is all the things you need to be able to do with your irons.

    you may see some aging club members use them, but you sure don't see many on tour. there's a reason for that.

    therefore, i think it's a disservice to recommend a new player to start the game with training wheels and expect to improve. get a couple of used blades, hit the driving range & practice.
    Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.

  91. #91
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    What NONSENSE! The US OPEN has been won with graphite shafts and big offset cavity back clubheads. Corey Pavin knocked the pins down with those. Hale Irwin won many times more money on the Champion's Tour than anyone else EVER HAS, using such clubs. I assume he soundly beat dozens of guys every week-- guys playing tiny forged blades with heavy "RIFLE" shafts. One would think they would copy the winner--and forget about ego. You can't eat ego.

    I would love to stand adjacent to you or most amateurs on the range and hit a bucket of 3i to a target. You hit those heavy steel shaft irons and I will hit my light BBs (off the shelf). I KNOW I can hit 10 for 10 or 20 for 20 closer to a target than 99% of amateurs. In fact I can hit them accurately with Whippy long irons. I can do that because I don't need to strain; I just hold the club with a "baby bird" grip pressure and throw the clubhead at the ball. "Snick," there goes another one.

    I KNOW you can't find a teaching pro who will recommend forged clubs with heavy steel stiff shafts for ANY amateur unless he is knocking on the door of the tour-- and even those young strong guys would be better off in the long-run to take it easy on their joints. You won't be young forever...

    Larry

  92. #92
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Hey Larry,

    I can tell from the avatar (if that's a pic of you) that you're a retiree who probably lives and plays on some retirement village golf community down in Florida somewhere, so I'm sure some of the 'good' players at your local club indeed have trouble getting their soft, flabby, arthritic bodies to generate the necessary clubhead speed to use real clubs and shafts. And you keep mentioning what Hale Irwin does to fellow broken down hacks on the colostomy bag tour. You also mentioned Corey Pavin at the US Open. Why don't you link these two examples and tell us what Hale Irwin used to win his 3 US Opens on the real tour? I think the answer may not back up your argument very well.

    BJ is right, your advice for using shovels with raphite shafts may be relevant for some 65 year old hacker who has never picked up a glf club in his life, but for younger, atheltic guys your advice would stop any chance of making any real improvement.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  93. #93
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    https://bigcedar.com/golf/buffalo-ridge-springs-course/
    Posts
    3,651
    Rep Power
    22
    LMAO. if my S300s are too heavy for you, you might want to hit the gym more often. and if you want a club to correct your swing flaws, go right ahead and use it. i prefer to play golf with golf clubs, not a ping pong paddle on a whiffle bat. i would enjoy standing next to you and watch you dig holes to china with your BB 3i as well.

    i enjoy your posts on the economy, but you're putting even nifty to shame with your club evaluations bro.

    it's hilarious the pros you are mentioning. corey pavin & hale irwin. that's too funny to even comment on. sooner can i get a smiley here please??

    you seem to KNOW a lot larry. you should call up ole' hank haney & tell him to phuck off. then call prostatus and have him fit tiger for some graphite shovels so he doesn't strain his pinky with that 'baby bird' grip.
    Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.

  94. #94
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    Wow! I am in my 60s-- but I can still do 30 pushups and almost 10 pullups. I can press a lot of weight.

    But I take lessons. I am an engineer who reads and applies logic to every endeavor-- and now to golf. I read and understand when Bobby Jones, then Jack Nicklaus talked about applying almost ZERO leverage to the handle--and still generated awesome clubhead speed. Jack Nicklaus played regular or even senior shafts-- He did NOT need to use stiff golf clubs like a farmer uses a hoe-- Bobby Jones hit them nearly 300 yards with wooden shaft clubs and dead balls. Watch his swing--ZERO leverage, just allowing the club handle to swivel freely in his upper left hand-- The shaft flex characteristics don't matter because gravity and centrifual forces were used instead of leverage.

    Watch these guys hit them 300 yards+ with Whippy drivers, clubheads only 300 ccs and a shaft like a flyrod-- These are long drive competitors-- TWICE as strong as you or any amateur. They train with the Whippys to ingrain a swing with ZERO leverage-- so they can delay release as long as possible.

    Would these guys need heavy STIFF STEEL shafts to hit the ball straight? duh

    http://tempomaster.com/videos/commercialrender.wmv

    Larry

  95. #95
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Burnham and Berrow
    Posts
    3,659
    Rep Power
    20
    Hi

    Let me check BJ and NAH wragging on some newbie about the benefits a chopper can see by playing 6.5 Rifles in MP14's. HA Ha ha you boys.

    OK i am again going to put this in BIG WRITING.

    BJ DRIVERS AND NOT A HACKER (NAMED FOR IRONY) ARE BOTH F UCKING CHOPPERS

    ANY person who is not either a Pro or a scratch amateur is a chopper/hacker, period. That means you BJ and NAH.

    NAH shame on you, you know you could and have played better with Wilson CB so all this is BOLLOCKS mate. BJ you say you have played good golf with CB and Blades, i will lay odds you would shoot CONSISTANTLY better scores with CB.

    My bag is the gayest one on GR and i fancy my odds over either of you over the course of a 4 day 72 hole event so behave and leave the newbvies alone, bullys

    Edgey Out and proud
    WITB Ping K15 Driver, Nike SQ Sumo 16 deg "Thragina", Ping G15 4,5 and 6 hybrid, Callaway BB2002 7-SW, Ping Nome Putter

  96. #96
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coto De Caza-- RT Jones
    Posts
    3,224
    Rep Power
    19
    "it's hilarious the pros you are mentioning. corey pavin & hale irwin."

    But I would bet my house that either one could give you 5 a side. It is about hitting the fairways (on the correct side) and then hitting GIR. Distance at the risk of accuracy is STUPID. I watch "Playing Lessons with the pros" and loved hearing several say they won ALL their private money matches while coming up to the Champion's Tour when morons went for distance and hit it sideways.

    y'all have fun.

    Larry

  97. #97
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Edgey,

    At least I never claim to be a pro or scratch amatuer like some of the shovel toting hackers on this forum. They use internet creative license to beef up their resume to attempt to add fraudulent credibility to their outlandish and unproven claims of shovel superiority.

    I'm the first to admit I am a chopper, but I set high standards so in my opinion anyone who doesn't consistently shoot low 70's and has never had a sub par round is a chopper. As a chopper I am probably in a better position than any of the pro's or scratch amatuers (assuming for one second that these lying POS choppers actually are what they say they are) to comment on the game improvement benefits of blades or player CB's, as I'm the one actually seeing and feeling the improvement derived from using them.

    Edgey, like all debaters coming from a weak foundation, you choose to attack the messengers when you can't refute the message.

    Finally you're comment on the fact you could beat me wiht your gardening tools over 72 holes proves the superiority of you're argument. To take YOUR argument to it's logical conclusion, Tiger could beat your arse, or any other golfer on the planet, so does that mean that just because Tiger can beat you his opinion is of higher value than yours?
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  98. #98
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    11,981
    Rep Power
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    "it's hilarious the pros you are mentioning. corey pavin & hale irwin."

    But I would bet my house that either one could give you 5 a side. It is about hitting the fairways (on the correct side) and then hitting GIR. Distance at the risk of accuracy is STUPID. I watch "Playing Lessons with the pros" and loved hearing several say they won ALL their private money matches while coming up to the Champion's Tour when morons went for distance and hit it sideways.

    y'all have fun.

    Larry
    Larry,

    You still haven't enlightened us on what equipment Hale Irwin was using before he was a broken down crip i.e. when he won 3 REAL US Opens.

    Or how about naming some current major champions who are using BB's with graphite shafts, instead of dredging names up from the cart tour. I'll give you a tip Larry, NOBODY CARES about the Champions Tour or what SGI POS crap they are bagging.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  99. #99
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    https://bigcedar.com/golf/buffalo-ridge-springs-course/
    Posts
    3,651
    Rep Power
    22
    i just got the new masters preview edition of golf digest today and was looking through it. the what's in my bag section is on geoff ogilvy. he's 31 years old, and an obvious hack. and his arms are bigger than hulk hogan's right? well this is copied from his witb segment:

    "IRONS
    Except for the 2 iron, I play Cobra Pro MB with Royal Precision FCM Rifle 7.3 shafts. I like heavy clubs, and with a 130-gram shaft, these are heavy.

    WHAT'S MISSING
    No hybrid here. I tried one for six months about four years ago. It was flippy. One day, I'm sure I'll add one, but I still have more shots with a 2-iron."

    i have a newfound respect for this guy. pure blades, heavy STEEL shafts, and no gaybrid. you'd better give him some of that solid advice larry, before geoff hacks his way to another major.
    Be glad we aren't getting all of the government we're paying for.

  100. #100
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    7,189
    Rep Power
    23
    I will regurgitate this information once again for the umpteenth time for those who may not yet have seen it, but in MY EXPERIENCE, I played the shovels all my life -- Cally X18s, Nickent 3DX Pros, Golfsmith Harvey Pennicks (2000 design), and Taylormade R7s. I consistently golfed in the low 90s to high 80s with these irons with no betterment of golf swinging. It was only whenever I purchased my new Mizuno MP52s with the Exsar Pro stiff graphite shafts (same quality as Aldila NVs with a low to mid ball flight) that I started seeing true overall game improvement. Why? Because the sweet spot is smaller than I am use to and I have had to develop a swing that is more consistent in hitting the sweet spot on the club face.

    For some guys, maybe they can do it with the GI shovels, but I couldn't. I'm now consistently hitting in the low 80s and my goal is to break into the 70s before this Summer ends. If you play better golf with the GI shovels, then power to you -- go enjoy the game. But, if somebody was stuck on shooting the same scores and they wanted to switch to some new irons, I would be the one to suggest that they go to a player's style CB or blades. I'll be moving to straight blades myself someday soon looking for even more improvement.
    Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. New Irons for mid-high handicapper
    By Villegas in forum Golf Discussion
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 02-13-2009, 07:10 AM
  2. Best Clubs for High Handicapper?
    By Coop38 in forum Golf Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-29-2008, 02:42 AM
  3. Iron tragectory too high
    By daveh55 in forum Golf Discussion
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 11-21-2006, 06:32 PM
  4. gap wedge, 2 iron, or high lofted fairway wood?
    By nickfreije23 in forum Golf Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-11-2005, 08:38 PM
  5. Ping G2 HL (High Loft) Iron Question?
    By CanadianCaddie in forum Golf Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-03-2005, 04:18 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •