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  1. #1
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    One less hybrid; love that 4 iron

    I got my new mixed iron set of Scratch EZ-1 3-6, and AR-1 7-PW irons several weeks ago, and have now had enough experience by playing them for quite a few rounds to draw some reasonable conclusions.
    I have now "garaged" my 22 degree 4 hybrid, and am playing a 4 iron (25 degrees) for the first time. I had previously had my Wishon 560 MC's bent a bit strong on the long end, so I was playing a 5 iron which was actually 26 degrees. No really radical loft departure here. I'm not naive enough to get obsessed with the iron's "number," since the actual loft is the most important variable. However, I found that I was getting almost the same distance with the Scratch 4 iron as I was with the Alpha (Low Pro Rx) 22 degree hybrid, and since I had more confidence in hitting the iron predictably straight when I'm making longer shots into the teeth of trouble, I decided to stay with the 4 iron. I still keep my Alpha 19 degree hybrid in my bag, as a surrogate 5 wood. There are times that I definitely like the versatility of a wood based hybrid over either a long iron or a lofted metalwood.
    Despite the "player's muscle cavity back" design of the EZ - 1's (comparatively thin sole, minimal offset, thin topline) they feel about as sweet as any blade I've demo'd on a well struck shot. I think it is the extra muscle right behind the sweet spot that does this, plus the contribution of the soft carbon steel material. And they give me very consistent results, in contrast to some other 4 irons I've tried. Part of the improved results are unquestionably the result of the semi-custom sole design Scratch offers; it really makes a difference on both the wedges and the irons. It is easier to play a wider variety of shots from an assortment of turf conditions. (For me, it's the "D/S" (driver/slider) sole grind)
    I don't see an advantage to a hybrid in this situation, in my hands, so I'm happy to stay with the 4 iron for now. I know it's largely psychological, but knowing that the shaft is slightly shorter (1/2" is all) also gives me more confidence, and since the majority of the game is "north of the ears," I'll take whatever help I can get.
    Last edited by dorkman53; 04-25-2009 at 09:33 AM.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  2. #2
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    I ditched the 3 hybrid and re-bagged by 3 iron for the same reasons. I kept a 2 hybrid in the bag (17 degrees) but its more of a 4 or 5 wood replacement than an iron replacement. My Nike CCIs are player cavities, and have a soft forged carbon steel design. I haven't noticed a big difference in a good forged cavity and a blade in workability, but the CB is a bit more forgiving (not by much, you still need to get a good swing on it).
    WitB 2010:

    Dr: Titleist 907 D1, YS 6+ s flex
    3W: Cobra S9-1 F, , Aldila DVS HL s flex
    2H: Callaway Heavenwood 17 degree
    3i-pw Titleist 690 CBs, True Temper s300
    gw: Cleveland CG12 52 degree
    sw: Cleveland CG12 58 degree
    Putter: Ping Anser G2i
    Ball: Srixon Z Star/Bridgestone B330S

    Other clubs:
    Dr: Callaway FT 5, Aldilia DVS s-flex
    5W: Cleveland Launcher Fuji E270 s flex
    3i - pw Mizuno MP 29, (planning to reshaft at some point).

  3. #3
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    With modern strong lofts, I would think the 5-iron (circa 27° now) would be as long as most recreational players would want to go with irons.

    I'm still not sure why hybrids are supposedly better than 5, 7, and 9 woods, except that they don't fly quite as high if one plays in heavy wind. I like the high trajectory and thus prefer lofted fairway woods.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by connecticutter
    I ditched the 3 hybrid and re-bagged by 3 iron for the same reasons. I kept a 2 hybrid in the bag (17 degrees) but its more of a 4 or 5 wood replacement than an iron replacement. My Nike CCIs are player cavities, and have a soft forged carbon steel design. I haven't noticed a big difference in a good forged cavity and a blade in workability, but the CB is a bit more forgiving (not by much, you still need to get a good swing on it).
    Yup. Interesting how blades have become more playable and player CBs more workable. A while back, I compared some Tiltleist 690CBs and noticed the same difference between them and my 690.MBs.


    bd
    Titleist 975D 8.5*
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    (LH)
    Bag: Titleist SC-25

  5. #5
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    Congrats Dorkman!
    Bagging one hybrid is definately less gay than bagging two.
    Seriously though, while hybrids are a great addition to the club armoury I still like carrying my long irons. IMO they are more versatile when having to pull off different kinds of shots.
    I have to make compromises, especially in the wedge department to carry a hybrid and the long irons.
    Cobra ZL 9.5 Stock stiff.Sonartec SS 3.5 14*Sonartec HB-001 21* Cally Diablo Forged 4-6 nippons, 2013 x forged 7-pw pxi 5.5 TM rac 50/6 gw. Fourteen MT-28 54 & 58 S400 Daddy Long Legs 35"TM Lethal

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick
    With modern strong lofts, I would think the 5-iron (circa 27° now) would be as long as most recreational players would want to go with irons.

    I'm still not sure why hybrids are supposedly better than 5, 7, and 9 woods, except that they don't fly quite as high if one plays in heavy wind. I like the high trajectory and thus prefer lofted fairway woods.
    I've done long irons, iron based hybrids (Fourteen and Mizuno), wood based hybrids(numerous), and lofted metalwoods (7 and 9). I don't do as well with either iron based hybrids or high lofted metalwoods. The metalwoods do hit rather high, and their soles aren't as versatile as hybrids. Either an iron, hybrid or a lofted metalwood will hit well off the teebox or the fairway, but from light rough or a fairway bunker I get better results with an iron or wood based hybrid than a FW.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  7. #7
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    Shame on you D-Man. I think people should be able to use whatever they want. Why are you putting people down for using hybrids?

    If I learned the game with hybrids maybe I'd feel more comfortable hitting finesse shots with them. But so far with my hybrid, I like it out of the rough and for run up shots better than irons, but for full swings and finesse shots, I just haven't been able to get to the trust level I have for my 3 iron.
    GR lives...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    Shame on you D-Man. I think people should be able to use whatever they want. Why are you putting people down for using hybrids?

    If I learned the game with hybrids maybe I'd feel more comfortable hitting finesse shots with them. But so far with my hybrid, I like it out of the rough and for run up shots better than irons, but for full swings and finesse shots, I just haven't been able to get to the trust level I have for my 3 iron.
    "Whatever works in your hands" has, is, and will always be my mantra. However, anybody who doesn't agree with me is by definition both stupid and evil, and will likely cause the collapse of western civilization.......
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorkman53
    I have now "garaged" my 22 degree 4 hybrid, and am playing a 4 iron (25 degrees) for the first time. I found that I was getting almost the same distance with the Scratch 4 iron as I was with the Alpha (Low Pro Rx) 22 degree hybrid, and since I had more confidence in hitting the iron predictably straight when I'm making longer shots into the teeth of trouble, I decided to stay with the 4 iron. It is easier to play a wider variety of shots from an assortment of turf conditions.

    I don't see an advantage to a hybrid in this situation, in my hands, so I'm happy to stay with the 4 iron for now. I know it's largely psychological, but knowing that the shaft is slightly shorter (1/2" is all) also gives me more confidence, and since the majority of the game is "north of the ears," I'll take whatever help I can get.
    So you don't find you have have a gap between your 19* hybrid and your 25* 4 iron?

    I've never really understood why a 22* hybrid is considered a 4 iron replacement. Apart from the ridiculously strong lofted SGI irons that some OEM's have brought out in recent years most 4 irons are 24-25*. I consider my 22* Halo to be a 3 iron replacement (even though it replaces a 21* 3 iron) and carry the 22* Halo AND my 24* 4 iron. I have dropped the 4 iron in the past to accommodate an extra wedge but don't like doing that as it definitely leaves a gap to my 27* 5 iron. Also, apart from the lofts the 4 iron and the 22* hybrid have quite different purposes. The 22* Halo is an excellent club for hitting recovery shots from the rough or for high flying soft landing approaches whereas the 4 iron is better off the tee on long par 3's and for punching lower trajectory approaches in windy conditions.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    So you don't find you have have a gap between your 19* hybrid and your 25* 4 iron?

    I've never really understood why a 22* hybrid is considered a 4 iron replacement. Apart from the ridiculously strong lofted SGI irons that some OEM's have brought out in recent years most 4 irons are 24-25*. I consider my 22* Halo to be a 3 iron replacement (even though it replaces a 21* 3 iron) and carry the 22* Halo AND my 24* 4 iron. I have dropped the 4 iron in the past to accommodate an extra wedge but don't like doing that as it definitely leaves a gap to my 27* 5 iron. Also, apart from the lofts the 4 iron and the 22* hybrid have quite different purposes. The 22* Halo is an excellent club for hitting recovery shots from the rough or for high flying soft landing approaches whereas the 4 iron is better off the tee on long par 3's and for punching lower trajectory approaches in windy conditions.
    Completely agree.
    In my experience the same loft in a hybrid always hits a club longer at least than the iron.
    Also I have always maintained in my various posts about hybrids that they don't "replace" irons as they are used to produce different kinds of shots.
    Cobra ZL 9.5 Stock stiff.Sonartec SS 3.5 14*Sonartec HB-001 21* Cally Diablo Forged 4-6 nippons, 2013 x forged 7-pw pxi 5.5 TM rac 50/6 gw. Fourteen MT-28 54 & 58 S400 Daddy Long Legs 35"TM Lethal

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    So you don't find you have have a gap between your 19* hybrid and your 25* 4 iron?

    I've never really understood why a 22* hybrid is considered a 4 iron replacement. Apart from the ridiculously strong lofted SGI irons that some OEM's have brought out in recent years most 4 irons are 24-25*. I consider my 22* Halo to be a 3 iron replacement (even though it replaces a 21* 3 iron) and carry the 22* Halo AND my 24* 4 iron. I have dropped the 4 iron in the past to accommodate an extra wedge but don't like doing that as it definitely leaves a gap to my 27* 5 iron. Also, apart from the lofts the 4 iron and the 22* hybrid have quite different purposes. The 22* Halo is an excellent club for hitting recovery shots from the rough or for high flying soft landing approaches whereas the 4 iron is better off the tee on long par 3's and for punching lower trajectory approaches in windy conditions.
    Yes, but not much of a gap, and I'd rather have a gap there than at the shorter distances. It was a choice between having the gap between the 19 and 25 vs. keeping the 22 hybrid in and having a gap between 22 and the 28 degree 5 iron vs. bending one of the irons to a different loft. I can easily choke up a bit on the 19 degree hybrid vs. take a full swing (but not a "swing out of your shoes swing") with the 4 iron, and it really doesn't leave me with a substantial gap, surprisingly. I worked these issues out on the driving range and have confirmed them on the courses. The Scratch EZ-1 iron is surprisingly easy to hit, which has NOT been my experience with most other 3 and 4 irons I've tried in the past.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  12. #12
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    In my experience, a lofted fairway wood needs to be two or three degrees weaker than the iron it directly replaces.

    A hybrid needs to be one or two degrees weaker than the iron it replaces.


    Given my game and three different clubs of 20° loft, the fairway wood would go farthest, then the hybrid, and the iron would fly the shortest distance, especially off the deck.

    At lofts stronger than 19 or 20°, I lose distance increment rapidly with all clubs. I hit driver about 240 or 245 on average, which is actually a bit longer than I hit last year's driver. I stuck with the 360cc driver until this year.

  13. #13
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    So a 20 degree iron would be close or equal to a 21-22 degree hybrid, which would be equal to a 22-23 degree wood/fairway metal? I ask this only, because I am practicing with a 18 degree fairway wood and a 17 degree hybrid, and having that knowledge beforehand would help in knowing what to expect.

    I noticed that to be the case most of the time. Pending on shafts though, you might have a weaker wood, stronger hybrid, etc I used to play a 20 degree hybrid to my 20 degree 3 iron, and there was only a 5 yard distance gap between the two. I am a bit of a far iron hitter, so I might be outside of the average. I did have steel on the hybrid shaft though. The big difference was trajectory. the iron bored much better, where the hybrid was much higher (and more ideal for soft landings, then agian, I never play my 3 iron for soft landings). So, if I know the course I am playing, I can tailer my bag to what makes sense. If I need length and softer landings, I need the hybrid. If I need more versatility and control, I go with the 3 iron. I prefer the iron on the coastal courses I play..
    WitB 2010:

    Dr: Titleist 907 D1, YS 6+ s flex
    3W: Cobra S9-1 F, , Aldila DVS HL s flex
    2H: Callaway Heavenwood 17 degree
    3i-pw Titleist 690 CBs, True Temper s300
    gw: Cleveland CG12 52 degree
    sw: Cleveland CG12 58 degree
    Putter: Ping Anser G2i
    Ball: Srixon Z Star/Bridgestone B330S

    Other clubs:
    Dr: Callaway FT 5, Aldilia DVS s-flex
    5W: Cleveland Launcher Fuji E270 s flex
    3i - pw Mizuno MP 29, (planning to reshaft at some point).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by connecticutter
    So a 20 degree iron would be close or equal to a 21-22 degree hybrid, which would be equal to a 22-23 degree wood/fairway metal? ..
    That's about my experience, though there are also shaft variables, and clubhead center of gravity variables which can confound the issue, too.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick
    A hybrid needs to be one or two degrees weaker than the iron it replaces.
    This flies in the face of many manufacturers whose 3 iron hybrid replacement is often a 19-20* hybrid to replace a typically 21* iron (or occasionally 22* iron).

    e.g. TM 19*, Cobra Baffler 20*, Mizuno 20*

    Other's e.g the Ping G10 offer exact replacements at 21* 3 iron & 24* 4 iron replacement whereas Clevelands Halo & Hibore are 1* weaker at 22* 3 iron & 25* 4 iron replacement.

    If lofts on traditional fairway woods and irons bug you Nifty, lofts on hybrids are my bugbear.

    Having said that I guess the uneven lofts can be helpful when replacing two irons with a hybrid in order to bag an extra wedge. e.g. a 23* hybrid would probably be a suitable club to replace both a 3 & 4 iron.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    This flies in the face of many manufacturers whose 3 iron hybrid replacement is often a 19-20* hybrid to replace a typically 21* iron (or occasionally 22* iron).

    e.g. TM 19*, Cobra Baffler 20*, Mizuno 20*

    Other's e.g the Ping G10 offer exact replacements at 21* 3 iron & 24* 4 iron replacement whereas Clevelands Halo & Hibore are 1* weaker at 22* 3 iron & 25* 4 iron replacement.

    If lofts on traditional fairway woods and irons bug you Nifty, lofts on hybrids are my bugbear.

    Having said that I guess the uneven lofts can be helpful when replacing two irons with a hybrid in order to bag an extra wedge. e.g. a 23* hybrid would probably be a suitable club to replace both a 3 & 4 iron.
    Usually the shaft will be slightly longer in a hybrid vs. the iron it's replacing, and the FW will be even a bit longer than that. That translates into slightly more distance and slightly less control; the differences are relatively minimal.
    I've played with hybrids that were dead on the distances of the irons they were supposed to replace, and some were definitely longer. You really have to be willing to experiment and see the results they give YOU. A pre-purchase demo is the best way but there is still room for juggling the clubs in the bag after a purchase.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  17. #17
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    I have noticed shaft variables to play a key role in distance & trajectory as well. I used to have the Adams Tight Lies GT fairway woods in my bag for several years and those fairway woods were shorter (in carry), and had a lower boring trajectory than my current Cobras or my brief flirtations with Callaway woods. The lofts were within a degree of each other for all of these woods.
    WitB 2010:

    Dr: Titleist 907 D1, YS 6+ s flex
    3W: Cobra S9-1 F, , Aldila DVS HL s flex
    2H: Callaway Heavenwood 17 degree
    3i-pw Titleist 690 CBs, True Temper s300
    gw: Cleveland CG12 52 degree
    sw: Cleveland CG12 58 degree
    Putter: Ping Anser G2i
    Ball: Srixon Z Star/Bridgestone B330S

    Other clubs:
    Dr: Callaway FT 5, Aldilia DVS s-flex
    5W: Cleveland Launcher Fuji E270 s flex
    3i - pw Mizuno MP 29, (planning to reshaft at some point).

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