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  1. #1
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    Slow down and play well

    So how many sports can we do it "all out" and also do it well? NONE! If you "swing for the fence" in baseball you strike out--and get benched. If you pitch all fastballs, trying to blow the batter down, you walk so many batters that they take you out. If you bowl trying to blow the pins down, you can't break 100. In fact there are NO sports in which we can do it as hard as possible. When we max out, we always lose coordination and make a fool of ourselves. So we back off-- but not in amateur golf!!

    Smart golfers back off and swing in sequence, hit it on the sweet spot, drive it down the middle or hit it on the green. Those who can't learn that are fools.

    And so Hale Irwin and Corey Pavin win all the money.

    Larry

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    Larry, you are quite the sage.
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  3. #3
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    Larry, still with Pavin and Irwin. When you say 'all the money' I'm assuming you are referring to the ever shrinking cart tour purses. In case you haven't noticed Larry the old farts tour has finally been exposed for what it is, a retirement plan for washed up no talent bums with colostomy bags and chopper clubs. They hoodwinked the fans for a while there with slick marketing, but now everybody realises that most of the players on that tour were no name bums in their prime who couldn't cut it on the real show, and have got progressively worse since then. And the ones who could play in their youth were mere shadows of their former selves, who were going through the motions to gouge a few last bucks from gullible fans to cover their bad investments and collapsed equipment companies. Nobody cares who wins what on that tour any more Larry. And nobody cares how much money Irwin and Pavin win on that tour.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    The Nolan Express threw 7 no-hitters. Talk about lack of control and a shitty career

  5. #5
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    Do you by chance have a video to demonstrate this?

    On the flip side I've read/heard many short knocker pro's talking about how the wish their dads had encouraged them to swing hard and learn to swing accurate later.

    I enjoy from time to time swinging for the fence. The long ball does impress the ladies.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Do you by chance have a video to demonstrate this?

    On the flip side I've read/heard many short knocker pro's talking about how the wish their dads had encouraged them to swing hard and learn to swing accurate later.

    I enjoy from time to time swinging for the fence. The long ball does impress the ladies.
    Jack Nickalus has said in many of his books that when you start playing you should swing for distance first, then worry about accuracy as it's easier to do it this way than the other way round.

    But then again, Jack was no Corey Pavin so maybe Larry is right.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  7. #7
    I wonder swinging too hard has an adverse effect on the kidneys and if so, can ginger ale counter it? Come to think of it, Ben Hogan said in his book to "swing through with all your beef" which is a geriatric way of saying "swing hard." Tiger's swing and John Daly's swing are acts of violence compared to the smooth action of Ernie Els' and Goosens'. I don't think Tiger or JD would trade careers with Corey Pavin.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Larry, still with Pavin and Irwin. When you say 'all the money' I'm assuming you are referring to the ever shrinking cart tour purses. In case you haven't noticed Larry the old farts tour has finally been exposed for what it is, a retirement plan for washed up no talent bums with colostomy bags and chopper clubs. They hoodwinked the fans for a while there with slick marketing, but now everybody realises that most of the players on that tour were no name bums in their prime who couldn't cut it on the real show, and have got progressively worse since then. And the ones who could play in their youth were mere shadows of their former selves, who were going through the motions to gouge a few last bucks from gullible fans to cover their bad investments and collapsed equipment companies. Nobody cares who wins what on that tour any more Larry. And nobody cares how much money Irwin and Pavin win on that tour.
    But isn't golf a competitive sport? How can you justify that someone like Hale Irwin with an OTT swing playing OS Cavity backs with graphite shafts could come to your club and give you 5 a side and kick you azz????? It simply means that he is smarter than you!! You would hit it sideways and he would hit it straight because he would swing in control. duh.

    If someone handed you a baseball and said, "throw a strike for $1 million!" would you throw as hard as you can? Would you throw it over the backstop? NOOOOO you would carefully throw it down the middle and hit that catcher's mitt. You would throw it like Hale Irwin drives a golf ball. And you would understand how he won $20 MILLION against the best who ever played the game--including Jack Nicklaus and Lee Trevino (the next highest).

    Larry

  9. #9
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    Hmmmmm.......................This threads starting to get interesting, lack there of is starting to make sense. I wonder how consistent he/she can be their with words
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    I wonder swinging too hard has an adverse effect on the kidneys and if so, can ginger ale counter it? Come to think of it, Ben Hogan said in his book to "swing through with all your beef" which is a geriatric way of saying "swing hard." Tiger's swing and John Daly's swing are acts of violence compared to the smooth action of Ernie Els' and Goosens'. I don't think Tiger or JD would trade careers with Corey Pavin.
    I have no statistical evidence to back this up, but I seem to recall that Tiger's driving was actually more accurate in the days when he really used to swing out of his shoes than it has been when he has gone for more control. I certainly don't remember him having driving problems when he got the slam and was the longest hitter on tour.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  11. #11
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    I know one thing , old or young , I m ripping that little white ball for all thats controllably worth taking a stroke for. I attack the course from the tee, and make sure that I have the greens speed right for the day. Only turds mosy up to the tee and swing like some old lady playing croquet. Driver is the most important club in the bag next too the putter...................Id rather miss long than hit short and then have to be 3 times more accurate from the fairway with a long iron or hybrid. But you cant go about bombing it like some weekend warrior jock whose hanging with his buddys . Daily stretching will help you save your swing and add more distance.......You gotta stretch it out folks . ......................Plus bombing the driver is fun and more entertaining. It makes an already boring game that much more fun.
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  12. #12
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    Larry, I agree with your overall idea. I rarely swing more than 75% as it's MUCH more accurate. I rarely take a full backswing, as it's also much more accurate. Just helped a guy tonight who was hitting all over the place. He made it to the "top" of his swing and kept extending and his shaft was way off kilter at the top (pointing way over his head) and then he'd drop down and hit it who knows where. I told him to swing 3/4 swings and all of the sudden he was hitting it mostly straight. He was thoroughly amazed at how much better he was hitting it. I can't remember the last time I took a 100% swing with an iron. Of course, I'm sure that's why I hold the course record at my home course.

    Seriously though Larry, post the slow-mo video again. While I do agree (mostly) with (most) of your posts, I still think you're a robot. And that you over generalize. Although I was starting to miss it when you left for a while. You bring the best of GR out!

  13. #13
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    Whats the point in blasting the hell out of the ball to find yourself 2 fairways over,the point of the game is to get the little white ball in the cup with least amount of strokes.Only turds look like rejects when they have to cross 2 fairways over to retreive a ball that if they used alittle patients would have better and less frustrating game.


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  14. #14
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    I agree ... I have never understood why people would swing their irons like the driver or their wedges like their irons . but some people dont get it. I would say about 70 to 75 % percent on the power scale is almost too much for an iron. If i need distance with those ill just club up . I mean So what if your hitting an 8 iron ill just hit my 6 iron.
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  15. #15
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    Hockey.
    Wrestling.

    You fail.

    /end thread.
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  16. #16
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    Exactly. All these young pups want long drive contests. I will pound it WAY past them on the range. Then when they want to play they drive it past me all day and talk trash...then when there's a hole with no trouble I pound it 30 yards past them again and they look confused. My favorite is when they ask me what I hit from 150 yards and I tell them a 7 or 8 iron and they brag about hitting their PW. I explain to them I CAN hit a PW 150 but I'm MUCH more consistent and accurate hitting an 8 or 7 with a 1/2 to 3/4 swing. Haven't lost more than a couple of times to all of them. What's neat is the ones who are looking to improve actually go out on the range and ask me how to hit the 1/2 and 3/4 shots and for help. I go through all of pointers and also tell them to work on shaping their shots. Can't tell you how many times hitting a mega slice around a tree has come in handy.

  17. #17
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    It simply means that he is smarter than you!
    Duh, probably more talented. There are many pro's on the circuit with more talent in their little finger than we have in our entire body. Some of those pro's are dumber that a post, specifically thinking boo here.

    Obviously you swing with control but I wouldn't exclusively practice for control. If we can both swing in control at 70% and your max swing is 85 mph and mine is pushing 120 mph then I'm going to be attacking pins with wedges and mid irons while your using mid to long irons and woods. There are going to be many pins that will not be accessible to your range. It's elementary really.

    The equalizer of all this is the putter. Most pro's win or die by the flat stick. If you can't putt you can't score. You might be good enough to win local events but not on a pro level.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Duh, probably more talented. There are many pro's on the circuit with more talent in their little finger than we have in our entire body. Some of those pro's are dumber that a post, specifically thinking boo here.

    Obviously you swing with control but I wouldn't exclusively practice for control. If we can both swing in control at 70% and your max swing is 85 mph and mine is pushing 120 mph then I'm going to be attacking pins with wedges and mid irons while your using mid to long irons and woods. There are going to be many pins that will not be accessible to your range. It's elementary really.

    The equalizer of all this is the putter. Most pro's win or die by the flat stick. If you can't putt you can't score. You might be good enough to win local events but not on a pro level.
    LMAO...................I wouldnt say their little finger to my talent .Im the brothas best kept secret. ..................Maybe for you he has more but I honestly wouldnt trade my talent for his. He just happens to know more people in places Im over looked , besides they all look the same to me when I turn on the Tele , except for a few of my generation golfers who make up the mid to late 20s bracket.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dano8238
    Whats the point in blasting the hell out of the ball to find yourself 2 fairways over,the point of the game is to get the little white ball in the cup with least amount of strokes.Only turds look like rejects when they have to cross 2 fairways over to retreive a ball that if they used alittle patients would have better and less frustrating game.


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    I dont know about 2 fairways over . Where I play no fairway means tee up another 1 if you didnt see it fall within 15 yards of the trees off the fairway. I still and will always believe in the John Daly school of golf when it comes to the driver, and or par 3 or 4 G.I.Rs.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    So how many sports can we do it "all out" and also do it well? NONE! If you "swing for the fence" in baseball you strike out--and get benched. If you pitch all fastballs, trying to blow the batter down, you walk so many batters that they take you out. If you bowl trying to blow the pins down, you can't break 100. In fact there are NO sports in which we can do it as hard as possible. When we max out, we always lose coordination and make a fool of ourselves. So we back off-- but not in amateur golf!!

    Smart golfers back off and swing in sequence, hit it on the sweet spot, drive it down the middle or hit it on the green. Those who can't learn that are fools.

    And so Hale Irwin and Corey Pavin win all the money.

    Larry
    Did u remove the videos on the other threads ? It is quite too soon.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by collegegolfer
    Exactly. All these young pups want long drive contests. I will pound it WAY past them on the range. Then when they want to play they drive it past me all day and talk trash...then when there's a hole with no trouble I pound it 30 yards past them again and they look confused. My favorite is when they ask me what I hit from 150 yards and I tell them a 7 or 8 iron and they brag about hitting their PW. I explain to them I CAN hit a PW 150 but I'm MUCH more consistent and accurate hitting an 8 or 7 with a 1/2 to 3/4 swing. Haven't lost more than a couple of times to all of them. What's neat is the ones who are looking to improve actually go out on the range and ask me how to hit the 1/2 and 3/4 shots and for help. I go through all of pointers and also tell them to work on shaping their shots. Can't tell you how many times hitting a mega slice around a tree has come in handy.

    I agree with you and prostatus - 110%. I have really focused on this early in 09 rounds. Take a little more club and swing 3/4 smooth stroke. I have played 4 times so far (each 9 holes) and shot 42, 42, 39, 40. Hitting lots more GIR. I always have swung my driver easy but my irons not so much. I cant believe how something so simple has helped my scores. Now if I could putt those 42s might be 36s.

    Played with a buddy a couple weeks ago - we were both about 140 out after similar t shots to a par4. I grabbed my 8 and he grabbed his PW. He swung out of his shoes and hit it short left in a bunker. I went 3/4 swing easy tempo and put it with 15 feet. 2 putt par. He duffed in the bunker, got out, 2 putted for 6. That was me last year.

    What an easy way to lower scores.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    So how many sports can we do it "all out" and also do it well?

    Larry
    Swimming, any track and field event, competitive eating.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    Swimming, any track and field event, competitive eating.
    My examples were better.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfaholic
    My examples were better.
    They weren't and it's "/Thread Closed" jackass.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    They weren't and it's "/Thread Closed" jackass.

    Track and Field? Are you kidding me?

    Eating isn't a sport.

    And it's /end thread if I damn well want it to be.
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  26. #26
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    Obviously exaggerating a bit on the entire body, little finger example. We're still waiting to see you at the US Open Prostatus. Why don't you grace us with a video of your full swing? Every Golf Galaxy I've been in has a camera and software.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Obviously exaggerating a bit on the entire body, little finger example. We're still waiting to see you at the US Open Prostatus. Why don't you grace us with a video of your full swing? Every Golf Galaxy I've been in has a camera and software.
    Since ive grown to like/love GR I did say I would post a video. But on the flip side I do think it would be nice to have a go at winning a US open, but I generally have a small disliking to the PGA. If you ever saw me on the Tele it would either be The Carribean tour, Asian tour, or the European tour. The PGA has some pretty inaccurate shot by shot commentators if you ask me. Plus I can go to sleep well if a European tour event just happenened to be on if I fell asleep with the tele on and if I ever watch golf its either late night in the sac or TW kickin some azz, thats about it boss
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by collegegolfer
    Larry, I agree with your overall idea. I rarely swing more than 75% as it's MUCH more accurate. I rarely take a full backswing, as it's also much more accurate. Just helped a guy tonight who was hitting all over the place. He made it to the "top" of his swing and kept extending and his shaft was way off kilter at the top (pointing way over his head) and then he'd drop down and hit it who knows where. I told him to swing 3/4 swings and all of the sudden he was hitting it mostly straight. He was thoroughly amazed at how much better he was hitting it. I can't remember the last time I took a 100% swing with an iron. Of course, I'm sure that's why I hold the course record at my home course.

    Seriously though Larry, post the slow-mo video again. While I do agree (mostly) with (most) of your posts, I still think you're a robot. And that you over generalize. Although I was starting to miss it when you left for a while. You bring the best of GR out!
    We should rehearse in slow motion (or in our mind) what we want to do in our real swing. Harvey Penick STRONGLY encouraged his college golf teams to rehearse the swing in SUPER slow motion, almost like a steet mime freezing at the various positions. Many if not most teaching pros encourage us to take various positions such as impact, freeze there and memorize the feeling. Same with backswing stations rehearsed in front of a mirror. My pro, himself a competitive tournament player, said he learned by reheasing in slow motion, hitting balls only a few yards, then slowly increased the distance-- but going back when his strike quality or divot, etc. was not perfect. Eventually his full swing was perfect.

    A very good concept for your friend (and me) and all of us who inadvertantly take it up over the plane on top is to connect the front and back halves of the swing-- in our mind. If the portion of the swing AFTER impact is on plane, then the mind will create a downswing to match-- on plane=on plane. Many pros think distance and accuracy are created by the golfer strongly swinging through--

    Larry

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    If the portion of the swing AFTER impact is on plane, then the mind will create a downswing to match-- Larry
    This is the very concept that brought me to single digits in my prime.

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    Haha, i love watching guys hacking a wedge, hitting it flush, and seeing it go nowhere. They turn around and are like "i killed that thing" It's a weird feeling, trapping the ball against the turf, but the ball just shoots out with tons of spin, in this case the 3/4 shot will travel farther than the 100% full hack, unless the hacker hits one thin. lol

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Jack Nickalus has said in many of his books that when you start playing you should swing for distance first, then worry about accuracy as it's easier to do it this way than the other way round.

    But then again, Jack was no Corey Pavin so maybe Larry is right.
    There are quite a few excellent players out there but they won't make it to the No.1 world ranking players due to lack of distance, if they did, then not for long... Justin Leonard, Corey Pavin etc... just to name a few. Would you rather hit a 9-iron or 7-iron to the greens? Yes, you alrealdy answer your own question

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    There are quite a few excellent players out there but they won't make it to the No.1 world ranking players due to lack of distance, if they did, then not for long... Justin Leonard, Corey Pavin etc... just to name a few. Would you rather hit a 9-iron or 7-iron to the greens? Yes, you alrealdy answer your own question
    Who cares? There is NOTHING more irrelevant to 99.99% of amateurs than what young touring pros do or need to do. They play LOOOONG courses in big dollar competition against other young guys who also learned to golf as kids, most of them phenomenons like Sergio. There is nothing sillier or more destructive than even thinking of trying to swing like they do. Smart amateurs know that and are practical and pragmatic. They don't play the tips. They swing smoothly and settle for straight rather than far. They avoid penalty mistakes. They hit fairways and greens.

    Can you throw like a baseball pitcher? Or when you try (like Mickelson did) to throw over 70 MPH (a fat homerun ball), you would miss the whole backstop -- instead of throwing a strike.

    Or do people watch you swing like a moron and say, "lights are on, but there is nobody home!"

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Who cares? There is NOTHING more irrelevant to 99.99% of amateurs than what young touring pros do or need to do. They play LOOOONG courses in big dollar competition against other young guys who also learned to golf as kids, most of them phenomenons like Sergio. There is nothing sillier or more destructive than even thinking of trying to swing like they do.
    You mean like when you were advocating using the chipping technique of Phil Mickelson for instance?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker
    You mean like when you were advocating using the chipping technique of Phil Mickelson for instance?
    Well folks, here he is. Alan Baker has been banned from at least half a dozen golf discussion forums and now he is here--doing exactly what gets him banned over and over again--unprovoked personal attacks--over and over again. He has been doing this for YEARS!!! He probably spends hours every day just posting to golf discussion forums. He doesn't work, he doesn't play golf, I doubt he can afford to. He just sits and posts venom. His vicious unprovoked personal attacks will escalate and soon you'll all know this scourge. As soon as you answer him in kind, he will attack--and then the flame war starts. Y'all have fun.

    I intend to ignore him-- and you would all be wise to do the same.

    Larry

  35. #35
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    Welcome to GR Alan. I'm sure you'll fit right in here if LarryRSF is taking offense.

    Chambers Bay, eh? I've heard good things about that course. Are you a resident up there? Can you get a Portlander in at the residents price? I've been itching for a road trip to check it out. Looks like a fun track.

  36. #36
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    Larry,

    Flip the pages bag in Penick's Little Red Book to the "Hit a Full Approach" back about 15 pages "The Slow-Motion Drill". He does not advocate taking less club and swinging easy. He states "When you take a stronger club and try to hit it easy, your muscles will involuntarily tell you that you are using the wrong club, and you are likely to flinch and pull up on the shot.
    If you want to hit the stronger club anyway, grip down an inch on the handle - and go ahead and hit it hard."

    The real question is if you are swinging within yourself not if you are swinging hard. For me it's about course management. If the pins back and I can either step on a 9i or hit a soft 8i, I would likely step on the 9. My miss would still be on the green or short leaving plenty of green to get up and down.

    So 99.99% of the time I would not put golf into one little equation. If swinging for the fence is the smart play then I will make that play.

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    I can't throw strikes like a big league player but I can drink beer with the best of them. Would that make me like a pro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt1135
    I can't throw strikes like a big league player but I can drink beer with the best of them. Would that make me like a pro?
    Yes. Congratulations, your PGA card is in the mail . . . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Well folks, here he is. Alan Baker has been banned from at least half a dozen golf discussion forums and now he is here--doing exactly what gets him banned over and over again--unprovoked personal attacks--over and over again.
    Where was the personal attack?

    He has been doing this for YEARS!!! He probably spends hours every day just posting to golf discussion forums. He doesn't work, he doesn't play golf, I doubt he can afford to.
    I play golf. I play to a real 10.3 handicap:

    http://www.rcganetwork.org/Score/Sco...aspx?ID=453842

    He just sits and posts venom. His vicious unprovoked personal attacks will escalate and soon you'll all know this scourge As soon as you answer him in kind, he will attack--and then the flame war starts. Y'all have fun..
    What "venom"? What "unprovoked personal attack"? I simply asked why you'd changed your mind about doing what the pros do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Welcome to GR Alan. I'm sure you'll fit right in here if LarryRSF is taking offense.

    Chambers Bay, eh? I've heard good things about that course. Are you a resident up there? Can you get a Portlander in at the residents price? I've been itching for a road trip to check it out. Looks like a fun track.
    For some reason, the system is taking what I put in as my favourite course and putting that out as my location. I'm in actually Vancouver, BC.

    I only wish I could get the resident's rate at Chambers. I played it just the once, and I loved it. A couple of the guys in the group groused about the slow greens (they're growing in natural grasses and so were leaving them very long), but I thought it was simply spectacular.

    As for Larry, I just think people deserve to know the whole story, that's all.

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    Welcome, Alan. I found it interesting that Larry accused you of a personal attack you didn't make and then made a personal attack on you.

    Larry, if you decide to get married, you'd make a terric wife.
    GR lives...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    I have no statistical evidence to back this up, but I seem to recall that Tiger's driving was actually more accurate in the days when he really used to swing out of his shoes than it has been when he has gone for more control. I certainly don't remember him having driving problems when he got the slam and was the longest hitter on tour.
    I am glad to hear that someone is using the word "statistic" to backup his/her statement, now you are talking...

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    I hope Larry knows more about golf than he does about baseball. Swinging hard and striking out a lot leads not to "benching" but to -- homers and big money. This is the outstanding lesson of baseball economics over the last 15 years. A list of fence-swingers who can now afford to buy Larry's entire RSF neighborhood despite high strikeout totals would include Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzales, Melvin Mora, Mark Texeira, Aaron Rowand, Troy Glaus, Miguel Tejada, Adam Dunn ... the list goes on. Currently, the single season strikeout record, 204, is held by someone who is starting at third base every day for the D-Backs - Mark Reynolds. In baseball, not swinging hard has about as much currency as Square-to-Square swing does in golf. Better luck with your next analogy Larry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Larry,

    Flip the pages bag in Penick's Little Red Book to the "Hit a Full Approach" back about 15 pages "The Slow-Motion Drill". He does not advocate taking less club and swinging easy. He states "When you take a stronger club and try to hit it easy, your muscles will involuntarily tell you that you are using the wrong club, and you are likely to flinch and pull up on the shot.
    If you want to hit the stronger club anyway, grip down an inch on the handle - and go ahead and hit it hard."

    The real question is if you are swinging within yourself not if you are swinging hard. For me it's about course management. If the pins back and I can either step on a 9i or hit a soft 8i, I would likely step on the 9. My miss would still be on the green or short leaving plenty of green to get up and down.

    So 99.99% of the time I would not put golf into one little equation. If swinging for the fence is the smart play then I will make that play.
    But 99% of amateurs swing OTT when they swing "hard." Instead of keeping the clubhead on plane, their dominant arm takes over and the club rises up over the plane and then swoops down to the ball and swipes across it from outside-to-in. We have all seen that too often.

    The ONLY way for those guys (and me) to stop doing that is to back off and swing in control-- keeping careful control or our arms, our hands, and the clubhead throughout the backswing and downswing. They must give their lower body time to work in the right sequence, "turn, plant, swing"

    Good golfers watch a wild swinger and just yawn-- everyone remembers being STUPID!

    This is good practice.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE7z0_9sOHM

    Swing in control to keep the clubhead on plane and hit the ball with the sweet spot. I am swinging a heavy driver here, 275 gram Momentus. I see that I need to exert more control to keep the top of my backswing even lower over my shoulders. I will work on that tomorrow.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    But 99% of amateurs swing OTT when they swing "hard." Instead of keeping the clubhead on plane, their dominant arm takes over and the club rises up over the plane and then swoops down to the ball and swipes across it from outside-to-in. We have all seen that too often.

    The ONLY way for those guys (and me) to stop doing that is to back off and swing in control-- keeping careful control or our arms, our hands, and the clubhead throughout the backswing and downswing. They must give their lower body time to work in the right sequence, "turn, plant, swing"
    Have you kept any kind of count of the number of things you've declared "the only way"?

    Good golfers watch a wild swinger and just yawn-- everyone remembers being STUPID!
    How would you know what good golfers do, Larry? Good golfers have real handicaps and regularly post their rounds.

    This is good practice.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE7z0_9sOHM

    Swing in control to keep the clubhead on plane and hit the ball with the sweet spot. I am swinging a heavy driver here, 275 gram Momentus. I see that I need to exert more control to keep the top of my backswing even lower over my shoulders. I will work on that tomorrow.
    That might be good practice for you, but you simply have no idea if it is good practice for anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker

    How would you know what good golfers do, Larry? Good golfers have real handicaps and regularly post their rounds.
    Alan I have to call you out here. I had a look at your card and you haven't posted a round since 10/26/08.

    That's 6 months, I hardly call that regular. On the other hand if you are in Canada I suppose you may have been frozen under these past six months and unable to play?
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Alan I have to call you out here. I had a look at your card and you haven't posted a round since 10/26/08.
    Yup. There was this little thing called "winter".

    That's 6 months, I hardly call that regular. On the other hand if you are in Canada I suppose you may have been frozen under these past six months and unable to play?
    Pretty much. Being that it's Vancouver, it's not so much "frozen under" as it is "rained out". And spring has been slow in arriving and very erratic this year. I've only been out hitting balls for about 3 weeks.

    Larry, OTOH, lives in southern California, and do you really believe that he has only played 4 rounds of golf since June of 2008?

    http://www.idcreports.com/members/me...&MBRNBR=568470

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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker
    Larry, OTOH, lives in southern California, and do you really believe that he has only played 4 rounds of golf since June of 2008?
    Larry you need to front up here mate.

    I salute you for posting another swing video and your swing doesn't look too bad. However Alan has raised a very interesting point. How come you have only posted 4 cards in the last year where the scores were 89, 91, 90 & 90. These had your handicap differential playing to 19.9, 20, 19 and on your best day 16?

    Those are hardly the average scores I'd expect from a 6 handicapper. What happened to all those sub 80 rounds you've been having lately on top quality tracks? You forget to count a few putts (like your hero Hogan)?
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    But 99% of amateurs swing OTT when they swing "hard." Instead of keeping the clubhead on plane, their dominant arm takes over and the club rises up over the plane and then swoops down to the ball and swipes across it from outside-to-in. We have all seen that too often.

    The ONLY way for those guys (and me) to stop doing that is to back off and swing in control-- keeping careful control or our arms, our hands, and the clubhead throughout the backswing and downswing. They must give their lower body time to work in the right sequence, "turn, plant, swing"

    Good golfers watch a wild swinger and just yawn-- everyone remembers being STUPID!

    This is good practice.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE7z0_9sOHM

    Swing in control to keep the clubhead on plane and hit the ball with the sweet spot. I am swinging a heavy driver here, 275 gram Momentus. I see that I need to exert more control to keep the top of my backswing even lower over my shoulders. I will work on that tomorrow.

    Larry

    Larry, you really have to stop with your utterly transparent "99% of amateurs do this [insert swing problem here]" statistic which has absolutely no factual basis in reality. Quite honestly - it's this type of over-generalization which is hurting your credibility the most. Just some advice I'm offering to you in the spirit of good-will, because I'm in a good mood tonight.

    Now - the real reason for my post. In your video, you're using your weighted club wrong. TERRIBLY WRONG. I want to help you with that (more good-will ).

    For a weighted club to teach you a proper swing plane, you must LOAD momentum into the club prior to the takeaway, which is done by starting the club FORWARD for a foot or so straight down the line (which moves the club into the proper post-impact position) and THEN making a takeaway back through where the ball would be and all the way to the top in one fluid, smooth motion. The press forward with the weighted club sets the path and provides momentum on the way back down and through the backswing motion which locks you on plane. Without creating that initial momentum, you lose pretty much every benefit there is to swinging a weighted club in the first place.

    The motion CREATES the positions, not the other way around. Refine the motion to improve the positions. Open your mind to the causality.



    FON
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    FON, 99% of amateurs don't know how to use a weighted club to help their swings.

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    Larry, looks to me like you cut across the ball with your swing. Do you normally hit a fade/slice or pull? Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by collegegolfer
    FON, 99% of amateurs don't know how to use a weighted club to help their swings.
    99% of the time, I would agree with this. It's because I have a theory that 99% of golfers make 99% of the mistakes in golf - about 99% of the time, if you're including 99% of the rounds they never turn in, 99% of the time.



    FON
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    Also curious Lari, you've mentioned TPI a few times in your posts. What was your FMS like? It appears that you have some serious hip/lower back mobility issues.

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    You should avoid using 99% of the time, 99.99% of the time.

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    His right foot is flat on the ground after impact. He leads with his shoulders through impact and doesn't shift the weight through. Hips are majorly slow coming through. It's a swing totally dominated by the upper body. I'd give him 99% of his 6.4 HDCP and still clean him. We'd play the tips though.

    I'd recommend taking a smaller swing (not trying to make a full swing) and just work on accelerating the hips through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker
    Yup. There was this little thing called "winter".



    Pretty much. Being that it's Vancouver, it's not so much "frozen under" as it is "rained out". And spring has been slow in arriving and very erratic this year. I've only been out hitting balls for about 3 weeks.

    Larry, OTOH, lives in southern California, and do you really believe that he has only played 4 rounds of golf since June of 2008?

    http://www.idcreports.com/members/me...&MBRNBR=568470

    Actually, Larry had only posted one round over the prior twelve months when I checked a week ago. Looks like he dropped in a few scores after I called him on it in another thread.
    GR lives...

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    Quote Originally Posted by collegegolfer
    His right foot is flat on the ground after impact. He leads with his shoulders through impact and doesn't shift the weight through. Hips are majorly slow coming through. It's a swing totally dominated by the upper body. I'd give him 99% of his 6.4 HDCP and still clean him. We'd play the tips though.

    I'd recommend taking a smaller swing (not trying to make a full swing) and just work on accelerating the hips through.
    Sounds like a classic candidate for the Pivot for Power traininng aid, wouldn't you agree?
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Would you stop selling your training aids on here? Spammer.

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    Unless it's his mobility problem(s) that is causing him to swing dominantly with the shoulders. chicken or egg issue.

    I'm a 7 capper now and I'd give him two a side from the tips in match play. I'm guessing lorries chips and putts are about as fluid as his full swings.

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    He's obviously older. So if it is mobility, he needs to shorten the swing and learn to deal with it rather than trying to ingrain swing thoughts meant for people who don't have mobility issues (see his numerous posts). I've helped people with back problems swing (they were older) and I had them make short turns and they came nowhere near parallel. Yet, since they compacted their swings, they were machines...although not distance machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Unless it's his mobility problem(s) that is causing him to swing dominantly with the shoulders. chicken or egg issue.

    I'm a 7 capper now and I'd give him two a side from the tips in match play. I'm guessing lorries chips and putts are about as fluid as his full swings.
    That's all well and good, but we all know the real question is "Could Irwin or Pavin give you 5 a side and still kick your arse"?

    Does anyone on this forum realise how good you have to be to qualify for that Seniors tour?
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Maybe a move like Moe "MOS" Norman.

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    If they/he have as much flexibility as our lerro they might be able to kick me in the chin or maybe the knee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Larry you need to front up here mate.

    I salute you for posting another swing video and your swing doesn't look too bad. However Alan has raised a very interesting point. How come you have only posted 4 cards in the last year where the scores were 89, 91, 90 & 90. These had your handicap differential playing to 19.9, 20, 19 and on your best day 16?

    Those are hardly the average scores I'd expect from a 6 handicapper. What happened to all those sub 80 rounds you've been having lately on top quality tracks? You forget to count a few putts (like your hero Hogan)?
    Those scores were almost 2 years ago. Over a year ago, I decided to take a year off and start over, embarking on a series of lessons and then working on my swing on the range. I listened when my pro told me that I could not hope to change my swing unless I made a zillion slow motion swings, drills, etc. He said it could take months. He said every time I made a fast tempo full swing I would erase hours of practice trying to ingrain the correct movement. That explains why most amateurs never improve. Nobody has the patience and persistence to do it right.

    And that is a fact. NONE of us can hope to improve while making full effort swings. We will simply do the same thing again and again, helpless not to repeat and more deeply ingrain the original mistake.

    For me it has been two things, my failure to get fully posted before impact and allowing the club to fly up over the swing plane on top-- over my head instead of down over my shoulders. I do what about 90% of developing amateurs do. And I couldn't feel myself do it--and only became aware of it while watching myself on video during lessons or afterward with my own camera on the range.

    The footwork is important only to make more consistent clean contact and a little more distance. Many very good golfers and a few touring pros hit the ball with both heels down. So I don't worry about that as much as the swing plane.

    I know that swinging on plane and striking the ball on the sweet spot will deliver fairways and greens-- and NEVER a sideways shot penalty.

    So I work on that-- the video yesterday was only the beginning of this journey. Today I will hit more balls on the range with my heavy driver-- and work to roll my right wrist on top to hold the club down on plane. I can't do a lot about the footwork because I have a VERY unstable right knee-- that sometimes just refuses to take my weight early-- I had a football injury, several major surgeries, etc. I can do it, I will do it, but that is taking a while.

    I will play 3 times this weekend in the Palm Springs area-- Indian Wells CC, PGA West Nicklaus, and PGA West Palmer I think. All tournaments and will post those scores.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    That's all well and good, but we all know the real question is "Could Irwin or Pavin give you 5 a side and still kick your arse"?

    Does anyone on this forum realise how good you have to be to qualify for that Seniors tour?
    I bet not. I know 3 local PGA teaching pros who are ++++level competitive tournament players, can go out and shoot 64 on championship courses when playing against each other-- and can't get close to making the Champion's tour. They all entered the Monday qualifier tournaments numerous times--and finally just gave up. They shoot 71-73 on TOUGH courses against 80 other guys like them-- the two lowest scores get to play with the seniors that week, and so far NO qualifier has ever scored in the top 10 during the big tournament. THAT is how good the Champion's Tour players are.

    So when someone denigrates Hale Irwin, who won $20 MILLION against those guys, it is ludicrous. Look at your club pros-- and realize that Hale Irwin could give ANY of them them strokes and take their money (using OS cavity back graphite shaft sticks).

    Larry

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Those scores were almost 2 years ago. Over a year ago, I decided to take a year off and start over, embarking on a series of lessons and then working on my swing on the range. I listened when my pro told me that I could not hope to change my swing unless I made a zillion slow motion swings, drills, etc. He said it could take months. He said every time I made a fast tempo full swing I would erase hours of practice trying to ingrain the correct movement. That explains why most amateurs never improve. Nobody has the patience and persistence to do it right.
    Funny...

    ...you used to claim you didn't post because you didn't bother to putt out; you said you and your buddies just played fairway to green. You never mentioned taking a year off before. And this whole "slow motion" kick is new, too. So don't even try to claim you started it last June.

    And that is a fact. NONE of us can hope to improve while making full effort swings. We will simply do the same thing again and again, helpless not to repeat and more deeply ingrain the original mistake.
    You tell use that quite a few things are "facts", Larry. This time -- as so many other times -- you're simply wrong. I won't speak for anyone else, but I am quite capable of changing what I do when I take normal full swings. You may need to practice in super slow motion to change your swing, but that's you and not everyone.

    For me it has been two things, my failure to get fully posted before impact and allowing the club to fly up over the swing plane on top-- over my head instead of down over my shoulders. I do what about 90% of developing amateurs do. And I couldn't feel myself do it--and only became aware of it while watching myself on video during lessons or afterward with my own camera on the range.
    I find it strange that you still have these basic flaws that you claim prevent "everyone" from playing good golf almost 2 years after telling all kinds of folks that you were hitting "all the fairways and most of the greens" because you'd solved the very problems you now say you still have. Can you explain this apparent contradiction?

    The footwork is important only to make more consistent clean contact and a little more distance. Many very good golfers and a few touring pros hit the ball with both heels down. So I don't worry about that as much as the swing plane.

    I know that swinging on plane and striking the ball on the sweet spot will deliver fairways and greens-- and NEVER a sideways shot penalty.

    So I work on that-- the video yesterday was only the beginning of this journey. Today I will hit more balls on the range with my heavy driver-- and work to roll my right wrist on top to hold the club down on plane. I can't do a lot about the footwork because I have a VERY unstable right knee-- that sometimes just refuses to take my weight early-- I had a football injury, several major surgeries, etc. I can do it, I will do it, but that is taking a while.
    So, apparently conscious manipulation of the hands can now be a good thing, can it?

    I will play 3 times this weekend in the Palm Springs area-- Indian Wells CC, PGA West Nicklaus, and PGA West Palmer I think. All tournaments and will post those scores.
    And when will you stop claiming you're a 6 handicap?

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    Quote Originally Posted by collegegolfer
    Larry, looks to me like you cut across the ball with your swing. Do you normally hit a fade/slice or pull? Just curious.
    That's not a fair criticism. I was swinging a 275gm Heavy Driver. Swing one and see if you can keep it on plane or make a good transition. It is a training club--like a baseball batter swinging 3 bats.

    I make a divot in front of the ball --which means the clubhead was accelerating at impact. Even with the heavy driver, I hit the ball straight or a little draw-- which means the clubhead came from inside the target line.

    I will be 68 next month, started golfing 7 years ago-- I had a right knee surgical rebuild 20 years ago. I have had multiple scope surgeries since. My brain doesn't trust that knee! So I have trouble getting myself "posted" early on that leg. It is mental, not physical, and I will get it--because I will persist.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    That's not a fair criticism. I was swinging a 275gm Heavy Driver. Swing one and see if you can keep it on plane or make a good transition. It is a training club--like a baseball batter swinging 3 bats.
    It wasn't a criticism at all, Larry. It was an observation and it was accurate.

    I make a divot in front of the ball --which means the clubhead was accelerating at impact. Even with the heavy driver, I hit the ball straight or a little draw-- which means the clubhead came from inside the target line.
    Making a divot in front of the ball doesn't mean the clubhead was accelerating at impact. All it means is that the clubhead was descending when it got to the ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    So how many sports can we do it "all out" and also do it well? NONE! If you "swing for the fence" in baseball you strike out--and get benched. If you pitch all fastballs, trying to blow the batter down, you walk so many batters that they take you out. If you bowl trying to blow the pins down, you can't break 100. In fact there are NO sports in which we can do it as hard as possible. When we max out, we always lose coordination and make a fool of ourselves. So we back off-- but not in amateur golf!!

    Smart golfers back off and swing in sequence, hit it on the sweet spot, drive it down the middle or hit it on the green. Those who can't learn that are fools.

    And so Hale Irwin and Corey Pavin win all the money.

    Larry
    I'm not quite sure what the point of all this is. Swinging too hard is a natural step in learning the game of golf. Golf is counter intuitive and it takes a while for people to learn that. Some people work at it and figure it out some people don't. No sense in bashing people in early stages of the learning process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDB1
    I'm not quite sure what the point of all this is. Swinging too hard is a natural step in learning the game of golf. Golf is counter intuitive and it takes a while for people to learn that. Some people work at it and figure it out some people don't. No sense in bashing people in early stages of the learning process.
    Agreed. But I wish someone had "based" me. I would be miles ahead of today. I am just now learning how to slow down and swing smoothly. I love to watch our former touring pros on the range-- they know how to swing smoothly. It would be a wonderful invention if somehow we could transfer their swing thoughts to a student golfer.

    We all recognize that the urge to "kill" and HIT is massively counter-productive in golf. I often play on a local Marine Corp base with a real mixture of abilities. Good players just laugh at the strong young bulls who just murder it. (but they don't want to help them look for their balls in the woods!)

    larry

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    Hey Larry,

    Say hello to Walter Mitty for me next time he drops by your house (which I would guess is quite often).
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Agreed. But I wish someone had "based" me. I would be miles ahead of today. I am just now learning how to slow down and swing smoothly. I love to watch our former touring pros on the range-- they know how to swing smoothly. It would be a wonderful invention if somehow we could transfer their swing thoughts to a student golfer.

    We all recognize that the urge to "kill" and HIT is massively counter-productive in golf. I often play on a local Marine Corp base with a real mixture of abilities. Good players just laugh at the strong young bulls who just murder it. (but they don't want to help them look for their balls in the woods!)

    larry
    Where? Miramar? At Miramar you can hit the ball where ever you want to and still get on in regulation.

    The other thing about slowing down is when you get better you're more likely to have a pre shot routine which will naturally slow you down. When you're starting out you have no idea what you're doing so hovering over the ball with no game plan probably won't benefit you much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDB1
    Where? Miramar? At Miramar you can hit the ball where ever you want to and still get on in regulation.

    The other thing about slowing down is when you get better you're more likely to have a pre shot routine which will naturally slow you down. When you're starting out you have no idea what you're doing so hovering over the ball with no game plan probably won't benefit you much.
    I have had the benefit of playing right beside former touring pros, now in their 70s-- And the most remarkable thing you notice is their SUPER smooth swing--that hits it just as far or further than the young bull's wild slash!

    So that is my goal. I know they do that by making a fundamentally correct movement, a natural wrist set and late release-- and they hit the ball on the sweet spot of the clubface. I love to watch them practice with a long iron, bringing the ball to the target directly, from the right or from the left. Same distance, different trajectories. They go around any course from the tips and are disappointed when they don't score par or below. THAT would be fun.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    I have had the benefit of playing right beside former touring pros, now in their 70s-- And the most remarkable thing you notice is their SUPER smooth swing--that hits it just as far or further than the young bull's wild slash!

    So that is my goal. I know they do that by making a fundamentally correct movement, a natural wrist set and late release-- and they hit the ball on the sweet spot of the clubface. I love to watch them practice with a long iron, bringing the ball to the target directly, from the right or from the left. Same distance, different trajectories. They go around any course from the tips and are disappointed when they don't score par or below. THAT would be fun.

    Larry
    They also play golf five or six times a week and practice 1-8 hours every day.

    I haven't run across any 70 year olds that can hit much past 230-240. Even past tour winners. But they do stay in control. They have to or they'll break a hip!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    So that is my goal. I know they do that by making a fundamentally correct movement, a natural wrist set and late release-- and they hit the ball on the sweet spot of the clubface. I love to watch them practice with a long iron, bringing the ball to the target directly, from the right or from the left. Same distance, different trajectories. They go around any course from the tips and are disappointed when they don't score par or below. THAT would be fun.
    I find this confusing, Larry: lately you've been saying how your goal is to score par or below and that you took nearly a year off from playing to work on your swing (presumably to that end), but when asked last year about why you were posting scores, you said it was because you weren't really interested in golf anymore and in particular you weren't interested in the short game and therefore weren't practicing it (you and your buddies only "scored" by counting fairways and greens hit, remember?), whereas now you claim you love the short game so much you're practicing 4 hours a day.

    Could you explain these apparent contradictions?

    Thanks in advance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    I have had the benefit of playing right beside former touring pros, now in their 70s-- And the most remarkable thing you notice is their SUPER smooth swing--that hits it just as far or further than the young bull's wild slash!

    So that is my goal. I know they do that by making a fundamentally correct movement, a natural wrist set and late release-- and they hit the ball on the sweet spot of the clubface. I love to watch them practice with a long iron, bringing the ball to the target directly, from the right or from the left. Same distance, different trajectories. They go around any course from the tips and are disappointed when they don't score par or below. THAT would be fun.

    Larry
    It is fun....almost to a boring extent.
    A.K.A StrokeGuru

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    You are correct Larry, you don't post. I would recommend small, small, small, swings...almost like chipping. Just practicing feeling some rotation and weight forward at impact. Then take some bigger swings. It won't take months...I've done this with quite a few older people and they find the largest turn they can make and still have fast enough hips/transition to clear their hips at impact within a couple of buckets. Right knee shifts in towards the ball from the top of the swing. When you are taking baby swings it gives you the feel.

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