iron fitting problem

[bigdawgwill44]

I'm playing with Wilson Ci6 irons with stiff steel shafts. I have really been struggling with irons, especially 4-7. My problem is every shot is a push or slice. I have had these clubs for 3 years and when i first bought them, i immediately had them fitted for me. I was very new to golf then, and after several lessons, my swing is completely different now three years later. The clubs were set to a 2 degree offset. My golfing buddies, 2 who are below 5 handicaps, swung my irons and they did the exact same thing, major push right. Do you think its the stiff shaft, the 2 degree offset or should i get more lessons? thanks.

[Larryrsf]

I'm playing with Wilson Ci6 irons with stiff steel shafts. I have really been struggling with irons, especially 4-7. My problem is every shot is a push or slice. I have had these clubs for 3 years and when i first bought them, i immediately had them fitted for me. I was very new to golf then, and after several lessons, my swing is completely different now three years later. The clubs were set to a 2 degree offset. My golfing buddies, 2 who are below 5 handicaps, swung my irons and they did the exact same thing, major push right. Do you think its the stiff shaft, the 2 degree offset or should i get more lessons? thanks.

The fault is not the clubs. It is your swing. When you push or slice, etc. your clubhead is probably not being accelerated through impact. Very likely your body is in the incorrect position to make that happen.

The answer is lesson/s and then drills. You must learn to turn back, then PLANT your front foot (while still turned), and then swing. Your clubhead should strike the ball and then make a divot several inches in front of the ball. If if doesn't your weight had not transferred correctly. Your clubhead decelerated before impact and the clubhead was not traveling along the target line at impact. Momentum should carry you to a classic finish.

Lessons and drills. There is no other way.

Spend the money on lessons and then buying thousands of range balls instead of on clubs. I guarantee that any good player could hit your clubs just fine--even if they came from K-Mart.

Larry

[SDB1]

Throughout the learning process you should get fitted every 6 months to a year. Less if you aren't putting too much into it. Your swing will definitely change and so will your required club specs. Playing with ill fitting equipment will just force you to alter your swing to make the clubs perform. When fitting a set try and get the whole set to perform similiarly with the same swing. That way you never have to make swing corrections for just one or two clubs.

[SDB1]

The fault is not the clubs. It is your swing. When you push or slice, etc. your clubhead is probably not being accelerated through impact. Very likely your body is in the incorrect position to make that happen.

The answer is lesson/s and then drills. You must learn to turn back, then PLANT your front foot (while still turned), and then swing. Your clubhead should strike the ball and then make a divot several inches in front of the ball. If if doesn't your weight had not transferred correctly. Your clubhead decelerated before impact and the clubhead was not traveling along the target line at impact. Momentum should carry you to a classic finish.

Lessons and drills. There is no other way.

Spend the money on lessons and then buying thousands of range balls instead of on clubs. I guarantee that any good player could hit your clubs just fine--even if they came from K-Mart.

Larry

If his friends have the same problem when playing his clubs and they have sound swings I think there may be a club problem. I'd be interested to find out what happens when he hits their clubs.

[TmacG]

Its possible the lie's have indeed changed over two years and need to be re-adjusted. Take them to your local golf professional and get them checked. Im guessing its something in the swing though.

Tmac

[Home-slicer]

Couple of things dawg.
Not sure about what you mean about the offset. I think you mean lie angle. Offset is measured in mm. Lie angle is measured in degrees. Offset is thought to be an anti-slice feature, so I doubt that's the problem. Lie angles that are too flat or upright can affect ball flight, but not usually enough to cause a 5 handi to slice terribly.
The good news is, according to our resident expert Larry, your clubs can be 5 degrees too flat and six inches too long and it doesn't matter. (as long as they are graphite shafted cavity backs.) Your money is better spent on a swing jacket or a Pivot for Power device or "PFP" as they are known by the Tour pros.

[collegegolfer]

Larry is right that clubs usually make no difference. However, if the lie angle is many degrees off, it can cause a push or pull or cut or draw. A good golfer probably could figure it out and compensate for it, but having the specs checked out won't hurt. I've hit rentals that were WAY flat for me. At address the toe was all that touched the ground and after a few shots on a range learned to compensate for it and played pretty well.

Have you hit other irons when you have yours out? If the lie angle is that far off you'd notice the toe being way off the ground or way into the ground at address and you'd probably notice very thin strip divots if the entire club isn't contacting the ground.

Check the shafts too...look down the grip towards the handle...might be bent shafts.

[No_Idea]

The fault is not the clubs. It is your swing.

Larry

True. Your swing does change from time to time. Thus, you should get fitted every 6 months to a year like SDB1 said.

[Kiwi Player]

Couple of things dawg.
The good news is, according to our resident expert Larry, your clubs can be 5 degrees too flat and six inches too long and it doesn't matter. (as long as they are graphite shafted cavity backs.) Your money is better spent on a swing jacket or a Pivot for Power device or "PFP" as they are known by the Tour pros.

I think this one is definitely a prime candidate for the RULate swing device.

Whilst the PFP would definitely help the RULate is almost custom made to resolve this swing issue. And if BigDawg orders in the next 24 hours he can also get a PVP with a 25% discount.

But wait there's more.

If he orders the RULate swing device AND the PVP in the next 24 hours his 5 handicap buddies can also purchase the RULate at 50% off RRP.

Don't delay, order yours today.

Send your Order now to FreakofNature@golfreview.com

All orders received in the next 24 hours will also receive a free DVD copy of WWPD (What would Pavin do?) including a special section on the benefits of graphite shafted, oversized, large offset, thick topline and wide sole cavity back irons.

[oldplayer]

I think this one is definitely a prime candidate for the RULate swing device.

Whilst the PFP would definitely help the RULate is almost custom made to resolve this swing issue. And if BigDawg orders in the next 24 hours he can also get a PVP with a 25% discount.

But wait there's more.

If he orders the RULate swing device AND the PVP in the next 24 hours his 5 handicap buddies can also purchase the RULate at 50% off RRP.

Don't delay, order yours today.

Send your Order now to FreakofNature@golfreview.com

All orders received in the next 24 hours will also receive a free DVD copy of WWPD (What would Pavin do?) including a special section on the benefits of graphite shafted, oversized, large offset, thick topline and wide sole cavity back irons.

Kiwi, you've got to learn to just let go.
Larry is just like me, a harmless old man.

[Horseballs]

Kiwi, you've got to learn to just let go.
Larry is just like me, a harmless old man.

OP, we've seen your swing video. You are a mere fetus compared to the ancient and demented Larryrsf.
Kiwi, you forgot about the free video (if you act now) for Golf Tai Chi. A $29 value, yours free.

When is that infomercial coming out?
"Hi folks, Billy Mays here for the Pivot for Power..."

[The Purist]

I have always found people with little to no social awareness interesting. They basically operate without a filter...everyone has weird, wacky, or inappropriate thoughts/views that pop up in their head, but its only a select few who express them without first thinking how it might make them look (or how others might react to them). Some are born with this "gift" in the form of developmental dissorders like autism, and some aquire the "gift" from their surroundings...ie. parents who excessively spoil their children, or maybe someone with good looks, has fame, or has fortune being surrounded by suck ups and hanger ons. Some famous fictional characters with no filter are Michael Scott (The Office) and Kenny Powers (Eastbound & Down). Reality Show recruiters are always on the look out for people with no social filter. I guarantee Larry could get on a show like Survivor, if he sent in a full resume of his talents and accomplishments. I think we are lucky to have Larry, and I hope he continues to spread his message here on GR.

[ripit35]

OP, try rotating around your spine, you may be dipping your right shoulder, by this i mean your shoulders are pointed way up towards the sky at impact, they should be relatively parallel to the ground. I bet this was Tiger's problem sunday when he sucked mightily

[oldplayer]

OP, try rotating around your spine, you may be dipping your right shoulder, by this i mean your shoulders are pointed way up towards the sky at impact, they should be relatively parallel to the ground. I bet this was Tiger's problem sunday when he sucked mightily

Thank for the tip. thumbsup!

[Kiwi Player]

Kiwi, you've got to learn to just let go.
Larry is just like me, a harmless old man.

Let it go????

Are you kidding???

FON has me on a commission deal and we're making a killing on these fantastic swing aids.

[Kiwi Player]

Thank for the tip. thumbsup!

Ever considered the swing jacket ...?

[Larryrsf]

If his friends have the same problem when playing his clubs and they have sound swings I think there may be a club problem. I'd be interested to find out what happens when he hits their clubs.

I know engineers should not be allowed to bring pragmatic logic into a golf discussion, but if the clubs really made much difference, then NOBODY would be able to hit Whippy irons straight and long. But good golfers can hit them as well as they can conventional clubs, either stiff steel or graphite or whatever--and the Whippy club shaft can be bent into a "U" and the clubhead is a cavity back. So the only logical conclusion is that the club itself makes almost no difference--and that a good golf swing is a good golf swing.

I think Trevino was laughing at Amateurs who believe voo doo nonsense about golf clubs when he broke 90 on a long championship course with a thick glass bottle taped to a stick.

So I advise every beginner to take lessons and then do the drills. Then go back to the pro after a few days. Take another lesson, see that you have made NO progress and this time ACTUALLY work to ingrain the positions and movements the pro suggested. Then after a few weeks go back and do it again--because very likely you will have invented your own grip, your own stance, and will still be hacking. Learning the golf swing is an iterative process, very much like learning to play a guitar. If you don't have the patience and persistence to do that-- you will never have a decent golf swing either.

Larry

[ripit35]

I know engineers should not be allowed to bring pragmatic logic into a golf discussion, but if the clubs really made much difference, then NOBODY would be able to hit Whippy irons straight and long. But good golfers can hit them as well as they can conventional clubs, either stiff steel or graphite or whatever--and the Whippy club shaft can be bent into a "U" and the clubhead is a cavity back. So the only logical conclusion is that the club itself makes almost no difference--and that a good golf swing is a good golf swing.

I think Trevino was laughing at Amateurs who believe voo doo nonsense about golf clubs when he broke 90 on a long championship course with a thick glass bottle taped to a stick.

So I advise every beginner to take lessons and then do the drills. Then go back to the pro after a few days. Take another lesson, see that you have made NO progress and this time ACTUALLY work to ingrain the positions and movements the pro suggested. Then after a few weeks go back and do it again--because very likely you will have invented your own grip, your own stance, and will still be hacking. Learning the golf swing is an iterative process, very much like learning to play a guitar. If you don't have the patience and persistence to do that-- you will never have a decent golf swing either.

Larry

Larry, you are what, 90? And you still take lessons? so you basically play the "guitar" like a beginner after 80 or so years of lessons.....?

[alangbaker]

I know engineers should not be allowed to bring pragmatic logic into a golf discussion, but if the clubs really made much difference, then NOBODY would be able to hit Whippy irons straight and long. But good golfers can hit them as well as they can conventional clubs, either stiff steel or graphite or whatever--and the Whippy club shaft can be bent into a "U" and the clubhead is a cavity back. So the only logical conclusion is that the club itself makes almost no difference--and that a good golf swing is a good golf swing.

Have you notice that nobody on tour actually hits a Whippy in competition?

If the club makes no difference, and hitting a Whippy is such a good training aid, why not use them all the time?

It seems to me there is some problem with your assumptions there, Larry?

I think Trevino was laughing at Amateurs who believe voo doo nonsense about golf clubs when he broke 90 on a long championship course with a thick glass bottle taped to a stick.

He never did that.

So I advise every beginner to take lessons and then do the drills. Then go back to the pro after a few days. Take another lesson, see that you have made NO progress and this time ACTUALLY work to ingrain the positions and movements the pro suggested. Then after a few weeks go back and do it again--because very likely you will have invented your own grip, your own stance, and will still be hacking. Learning the golf swing is an iterative process, very much like learning to play a guitar. If you don't have the patience and persistence to do that-- you will never have a decent golf swing either.

I advise you don't take advice from liars and cheats.

But maybe that's just me...

[Not a hacker]

I have always found people with little to no social awareness interesting. They basically operate without a filter...everyone has weird, wacky, or inappropriate thoughts/views that pop up in their head, but its only a select few who express them without first thinking how it might make them look (or how others might react to them). Some are born with this "gift" in the form of developmental dissorders like autism, and some aquire the "gift" from their surroundings...ie. parents who excessively spoil their children, or maybe someone with good looks, has fame, or has fortune being surrounded by suck ups and hanger ons. Some famous fictional characters with no filter are Michael Scott (The Office) and Kenny Powers (Eastbound & Down). Reality Show recruiters are always on the look out for people with no social filter. I guarantee Larry could get on a show like Survivor, if he sent in a full resume of his talents and accomplishments. I think we are lucky to have Larry, and I hope he continues to spread his message here on GR.

The frontal lobe is responsible for controlling impilses. I kknow a couple of guys who have had car accidents and had large chunks of the frontal lobe removed, and they are prone to say or do the first thing that comes into their head, as well as being extremely forgetfel and contradicting themselves regularly (sound like anyone on GR?). So although I agree with your observations of Larry having no social filter ( and it seems the most likely diagnosis), we can't pinpoint where it came from, and therefore we can't discard the possibility Larry's behaviour is a result of being lobotomised.

[collegegolfer]

Wait a minute Larry...I didn't think shafts bent on golf clubs...sorry, couldn't resist.

Seriously though, I agree with your point that clubs don't make as much of a difference as people think. But, with that said, once you're fairly consistent accuracy becomes much easier when you're fit for the proper lie angle, shaft flex, and shaft stiffness. Like you said in your own post hitting a whippy trainer club makes you a better golfer BECAUSE it forces you to make smooth transitions and have a smooth tempo. If you don't, the misses are extremely awful. So, using your own type of logic, if you have a normal shaft, say regular flex, and you make the same swing that had awful results with the whippy club, you'd probably have a shot that wasn't good but wasn't horrible. So the club DID make a difference. But when considering a typical set of clubs built with standard lofts/lies for a "normal" person (not really tall or short) the clubs don't make a huge difference for beginner/high cap golfers. I flew to the SW last summer to visit my parents and relatives. I didn't bring my clubs and used my mom's to play. They are built for a woman (graphite L flex) who is a bit over 5 feet tall. I'm about a foot taller. I had trouble with accuracy for the first few balls on the range and then learned to compensate. There WAS a difference between them and my clubs (pretty significant for confidence and accuracy) but I could still play with them and managed to shoot a +5 round of 18. There were a couple of shots I tried and could've pulled off with my clubs but lost control because of the super whippy shafts and what I was trying to do.

[Not a hacker]

Wait a minute Larry...I didn't think shafts bent on golf clubs...sorry, couldn't resist.

Seriously though, I agree with your point that clubs don't make as much of a difference as people think. But, with that said, once you're fairly consistent accuracy becomes much easier when you're fit for the proper lie angle, shaft flex, and shaft stiffness. Like you said in your own post hitting a whippy trainer club makes you a better golfer BECAUSE it forces you to make smooth transitions and have a smooth tempo. If you don't, the misses are extremely awful. So, using your own type of logic, if you have a normal shaft, say regular flex, and you make the same swing that had awful results with the whippy club, you'd probably have a shot that wasn't good but wasn't horrible. So the club DID make a difference. But when considering a typical set of clubs built with standard lofts/lies for a "normal" person (not really tall or short) the clubs don't make a huge difference for beginner/high cap golfers. I flew to the SW last summer to visit my parents and relatives. I didn't bring my clubs and used my mom's to play. They are built for a woman (graphite L flex) who is a bit over 5 feet tall. I'm about a foot taller. I had trouble with accuracy for the first few balls on the range and then learned to compensate. There WAS a difference between them and my clubs (pretty significant for confidence and accuracy) but I could still play with them and managed to shoot a +5 round of 18. There were a couple of shots I tried and could've pulled off with my clubs but lost control because of the super whippy shafts and what I was trying to do.

It's a bit like how people overstate the importance of golf balls. Tiger could get around a US Open course under par using a Pinnacle, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't pick up a stroke or two from using a ball he is more comfortable with. It doesn't make as much difference as people think but it still makes some difference. At the highest level the difference in golf equipment would probably be mre important tha to us mere mortals, so of course tour players would choose get properly fitted clubs, balls, putters etc.

And Larry, you say Trevino would laugh at amatuers with their fitted golf clubs etc. I can't remember Trevino ever turning up on the first tee of a US Open with a coke bottle on a stick.

[Kiwi Player]

Learning the golf swing is an iterative process,

Not as iterative as your posts.

[oldplayer]

Ever considered the swing jacket ...?

No I have not considered it.
As I advised previously you must get over you're fixation with Larry and his swing aids.
I understand you are still hurting at being so unfairly accused of throwing feces, but you must let bygones be bygones.
Much to the chagrin of some, Larry has now become a major feature in current GR dialogue.
Even NAH and FON would probably be lost without their #1 whipping boy.
Responding to Larrys posts with passion and purpose has given them a fresh enthusiasm for getting to the nitty gritty in their contributions.
You however Kiwi can rise above all that. Your intellect and soft heart displayed in your posts cannot be hidden. You're not the "tough guy" spoiling for a fight that Larry likes so much to take on.

BTW seeing you get a commission on the swing jacket could you send me a brochure?

[lorenzoinoc]

It's a bit like how people overstate the importance of golf balls. Tiger could get around a US Open course under par using a Pinnacle, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't pick up a stroke or two from using a ball he is more comfortable with. It doesn't make as much difference as people think but it still makes some difference.

The importance of some things might be overstated, but the importance of other things is dramatically understated. There is no question quality golf shoes are a prime example.

Tiger wears shoes of fine italian leather, crafted in northern Italy by artisans whose families have been perfecting shoes over countless generations. They're made of the finest quality leather. Tiger feels comfort that can only be imagined by people not qualified to wear shoes of such quality.

Don't be fooled just because they put the POS Nike stamp on them.

[Kiwi Player]

The importance of some things might be overstated, but the importance of other things is dramatically understated. There is no question quality golf shoes are a prime example.

Tiger wears shoes of fine italian leather, crafted in northern Italy by artisans whose families have been perfecting shoes over countless generations. They're made of the finest quality leather. Tiger feels comfort that can only be imagined by people not qualified to wear shoes of such quality.

Don't be fooled just because they put the POS Nike stamp on them.

You are spot on as usual. Those finely crafted leather shoes are made by craftsmen whose skills have been passed down through centuries of leather working, not cobbled together and mass produced in a Chinese sweatshop like most OEM's.

[SDB1]

I know engineers should not be allowed to bring pragmatic logic into a golf discussion, but if the clubs really made much difference, then NOBODY would be able to hit Whippy irons straight and long. But good golfers can hit them as well as they can conventional clubs, either stiff steel or graphite or whatever--and the Whippy club shaft can be bent into a "U" and the clubhead is a cavity back. So the only logical conclusion is that the club itself makes almost no difference--and that a good golf swing is a good golf swing.

I think Trevino was laughing at Amateurs who believe voo doo nonsense about golf clubs when he broke 90 on a long championship course with a thick glass bottle taped to a stick.

So I advise every beginner to take lessons and then do the drills. Then go back to the pro after a few days. Take another lesson, see that you have made NO progress and this time ACTUALLY work to ingrain the positions and movements the pro suggested. Then after a few weeks go back and do it again--because very likely you will have invented your own grip, your own stance, and will still be hacking. Learning the golf swing is an iterative process, very much like learning to play a guitar. If you don't have the patience and persistence to do that-- you will never have a decent golf swing either.

Larry

I think there is some confusion as to what constitutes a "good swing". If you are implying that a professional can adapt to most anything then yes, this is possible.

Unfortunately most players are not professionals that can instantly alter their natural swing in order to compensate to an ill performing club. If you think clubs make no difference you would have a hard time trying to explain the results of various clubs hit by a swing robot.

If you take different stiffness clubs with various weighting characteristics and make an identical swing you will get all sorts of varying results. That's with a robot making an identical swing on each shot.

Your best bet is to find clubs that give consistent results throughout the entire set with your standard swing.

[SDB1]

It's a bit like how people overstate the importance of golf balls. Tiger could get around a US Open course under par using a Pinnacle, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't pick up a stroke or two from using a ball he is more comfortable with. It doesn't make as much difference as people think but it still makes some difference. At the highest level the difference in golf equipment would probably be mre important tha to us mere mortals, so of course tour players would choose get properly fitted clubs, balls, putters etc.

And Larry, you say Trevino would laugh at amatuers with their fitted golf clubs etc. I can't remember Trevino ever turning up on the first tee of a US Open with a coke bottle on a stick.

Correct!

Equipment fitting benefits better players more than amateur players because their swing is more consistent and they know what they want. When picking a ball you look for spin characteristics and performance on and around the green. Personally there are certain balls that spin too much and I'll miss more fairways than usual. I also don't like ball coverings that are too soft and spin too much on approach shots into a green. Some other players may like that, people that play really firm greens for instance may need more spin to allow their shots to hold the green.

A funny story about balls is when I was first starting out I would play really cheap balls. On occasion I would find balls and play them the next round. Coincidentally my best rounds were always played when I had inadvertanly pulled a Pro V1 or Nike One ball. I would feel like I had way more control of my game.

[Not a hacker]

The importance of some things might be overstated, but the importance of other things is dramatically understated. There is no question quality golf shoes are a prime example.

Tiger wears shoes of fine italian leather, crafted in northern Italy by artisans whose families have been perfecting shoes over countless generations. They're made of the finest quality leather. Tiger feels comfort that can only be imagined by people not qualified to wear shoes of such quality.

Don't be fooled just because they put the POS Nike stamp on them.

The problem with shoes of that quality is that some country club shoe shiners don't appreciate that they are fine leather and allow a wax build up. They then need to be told to have that wax stripped off, and to be creamed and buffed with a fine shammy.

[lorenzoinoc]

You are spot on as usual. Those finely crafted leather shoes are made by craftsmen whose skills have been passed down through centuries of leather working, not cobbled together and mass produced in a Chinese sweatshop like most OEM's.

Exactly. Tiger would never wear mass produced shoes. One of the better kept secrets in the sports world is Tiger has the same size foot as OJ and bought all of his Bruno Maglis for pennies on the dollar. A wise investment maybe, but if it were me, I'd have been driven away by the smell.