Swing thoughts for a shallow hooky swing.

[Irishgolfer]

The first semi-serious note for a while. Historically I have always had a shallow flat swing. When things get nasty I either hook the ball or block it right. I take the club back on the inside and get tangled up at impact. It feels as if my hands and arms are very lively, with my right hand turning the club over. I also feel that when I am swinging badly my head is always moving.

This season I have tried to generate a more upright swing. My "secret move" has been to drop my left shoulder down (instead of turning it around) and try and extend the club back with the feeling that it is outside the line. It feels very awkward the first few times (it feels like I'm trying to touch the ground with my left shoulder) and with the arms going out it feels like I am going to slice the hell out of it. It feels exaggerated (I actually try and extend my arms and hands out to where my playing partners are standing!!). Like any swing adjustment it is hard to get your brain and muscles to adapt to it and accept it.

Now get this, the muscle that I feel tensing up as I reach the top of my swing is on my back just above the left shoulder blade. I never knew I had that muscle but I am convinced that it is a very powerful golf muscle. Try it. Feel it loading up. There is a lot of energy there, built in resisting the backswing. Now just release the energy up there and follow though, releasing the clubhead through the ball and making sure to exaggerate my extension and hips turning through the ball. Ernie is great to watch demonstrate this. It almost feels like the shot doesn't finish until the clubhead is 4 ft. past where the ball was (like a boxer punching through his target). I try and do a few warm up swings in slow motion and try and exaggerate the feeling. When I am swinging well the move feels effortless. You can hear the club-head whooshing through the ball.

Monty's ass clench has also helped. An old swing thought had me brace the inside of the knees (as if holding a ball between them) and this produces similar results. However the upper half of the body needs to be soft, especially the arms and hands for this to work.

All the time keeping the head still. If anything the head maybe feels like it is lower to the ground at the top of the backswing (I think this is the brain playing tricks, but there is no lateral movement). The results this season have been awesome. My stats are way up, distance and accuracy and I rarely hit that destructive fast hook. When I'm on my game I actually feel as if I can put the ball both ways (fade and draw). I get better flight and most consistent sweet spots.

Anyway, I'm not advocating that this will work for all you dudes out there. But those guys experiencing a fast hook be my guest. I have noticed the improvements with the longer clubs in the bag. The shorter ones (7 iron and upwards) are not so much a problem as I am swinging fairly upright at them anyway.

Any thoughts on this? I'm not majorly into the mechanics (yeah, right IG, I hear you say) as this is more of a feeling. And this year I have been to the practice range twice (work, travel ,wife and 2 small kids has all but limited my practice time), but I am playing every week and swinging the club in the back garden late at night (my neighbour thinks I'm a nutter). Still I have put in a consistent performance this season shooting a lot of scores in the 70s. If anything my short game has been the inhibitor, especially putting. But I am enjoying my golf this season and it seems to be paying off.

Any other thoughts I could be working on?

[bdcrowe]

The first semi-serious note for a while. Historically I have always had a shallow flat swing. When things get nasty I either hook the ball or block it right. I take the club back on the inside and get tangled up at impact. It feels as if my hands and arms are very lively, with my right hand turning the club over. I also feel that when I am swinging badly my head is always moving.

This season I have tried to generate a more upright swing. My "secret move" has been to drop my left shoulder down (instead of turning it around) and try and extend the club back with the feeling that it is outside the line. It feels very awkward the first few times (it feels like I'm trying to touch the ground with my left shoulder) and with the arms going out it feels like I am going to slice the hell out of it. It feels exaggerated (I actually try and extend my arms and hands out to where my playing partners are standing!!). Like any swing adjustment it is hard to get your brain and muscles to adapt to it and accept it.

Now get this, the muscle that I feel tensing up as I reach the top of my swing is on my back just above the left shoulder blade. I never knew I had that muscle but I am convinced that it is a very powerful golf muscle. Try it. Feel it loading up. There is a lot of energy there, built in resisting the backswing. Now just release the energy up there and follow though, releasing the clubhead through the ball and making sure to exaggerate my extension and hips turning through the ball. Ernie is great to watch demonstrate this. It almost feels like the shot doesn't finish until the clubhead is 4 ft. past where the ball was (like a boxer punching through his target). I try and do a few warm up swings in slow motion and try and exaggerate the feeling. When I am swinging well the move feels effortless. You can hear the club-head whooshing through the ball.

Monty's ass clench has also helped. An old swing thought had me brace the inside of the knees (as if holding a ball between them) and this produces similar results. However the upper half of the body needs to be soft, especially the arms and hands for this to work.

All the time keeping the head still. If anything the head maybe feels like it is lower to the ground at the top of the backswing (I think this is the brain playing tricks, but there is no lateral movement). The results this season have been awesome. My stats are way up, distance and accuracy and I rarely hit that destructive fast hook. When I'm on my game I actually feel as if I can put the ball both ways (fade and draw). I get better flight and most consistent sweet spots.

Anyway, I'm not advocating that this will work for all you dudes out there. But those guys experiencing a fast hook be my guest. I have noticed the improvements with the longer clubs in the bag. The shorter ones (7 iron and upwards) are not so much a problem as I am swinging fairly upright at them anyway.

Any thoughts on this? I'm not majorly into the mechanics (yeah, right IG, I hear you say) as this is more of a feeling. And this year I have been to the practice range twice (work, travel ,wife and 2 small kids has all but limited my practice time), but I am playing every week and swinging the club in the back garden late at night (my neighbour thinks I'm a nutter). Still I have put in a consistent performance this season shooting a lot of scores in the 70s. If anything my short game has been the inhibitor, especially putting. But I am enjoying my golf this season and it seems to be paying off.

Any other thoughts I could be working on?

I suffer(ed, depending on how well things are going round-to-round) from the same ailments: push/hook consistency problems. My "swing coach" pointed out how flat my swing was and gave me some pointers on how to get it more upright. More of a 1-piece takeaway, keeping the clubhead going back on the target-line longer, and doing the Nicklaus "sky reach" at the top. It does seem to be helping, more and more as I get more comfortable with it. It's funny that most people battle the outside-in, and those like us have to battle the opposite...

[Irishgolfer]

[QUOTE=bdcrowe]and doing the Nicklaus "sky reach" at the top. QUOTE]

BD
What's this Nicklaus sky reach gig? I assume you mean to get you hands as high as you can, right? I haven't heard that before. Nicklaus never suffered from a hook, though, so what's the thought there then.

I thought about this thread's title being Help for shallow Hookers. I was worried that the Mountain Bike people would be over in a shot.

[Bravo35223]

I have always been a left to right guy so I have never fought this issue.

However, since I have been adopting so much of the Hogan stuff - I am starting to go right to left - especially on the driver and fairway metals. Hope it does not get out of control - but I am getting more power out of everything now.

So the only thing I can report here is that the Ass Clench keeps working for me. When I used it effectively on Sunday - it was adding about 10 yards and I am hitting in straighter. It's going to take about 10-12 rounds for it to work it's way into my game though as I am a notoriously slow learner.

As for your issues - it sounds kind of complicated. I compliment you on your ability to assimilate all of this into your swing.

I'll bet you hit it a ton though...

[wormburner]

Hey Irish,

Another way to think of the sky reach thing is something I read in a golf magazine. In your backswing you want to push your right palm (for righties) to the sky as far as you can. Thinking this way eliminates the overswing where you would actually start bringing that right palm back down and towards the target (a la Daly).

[Irishgolfer]

I have always been a left to right guy so I have never fought this issue.

However, since I have been adopting so much of the Hogan stuff - I am starting to go right to left - especially on the driver and fairway metals. Hope it does not get out of control - but I am getting more power out of everything now.

So the only thing I can report here is that the Ass Clench keeps working for me. When I used it effectively on Sunday - it was adding about 10 yards and I am hitting in straighter. It's going to take about 10-12 rounds for it to work it's way into my game though as I am a notoriously slow learner.

As for your issues - it sounds kind of complicated. I compliment you on your ability to assimilate all of this into your swing.

I'll bet you hit it a ton though...

Wormie

Woody Allen has issues. I only have thoughts. I am worried that if I think too much my head will fall off. So I try and keep it simple on the course. In my back garden though, that's a different story. No wonder the neighbour thinks I'm nuts.

Seriously I try not to get too technical. This has been worked out on how it feels to me. I have not read a book on technical golf instruction in years. It wipes me out. I have however tried reading some "brain food" books. Tim Galwey's book (back / hit blah, blah, blah) has helped me create a feel for my shots.

The ass clench has helped me create a feel for my shorts!! ;)

[bdcrowe]

[QUOTE=Irishgolfer]

and doing the Nicklaus "sky reach" at the top. QUOTE]

BD
What's this Nicklaus sky reach gig? I assume you mean to get you hands as high as you can, right? I haven't heard that before. Nicklaus never suffered from a hook, though, so what's the thought there then.

I thought about this thread's title being Help for shallow Hookers. I was worried that the Mountain Bike people would be over in a shot.

Jack spoke pretty in-depth about this part of his swing in his book "Gof My Way". His main swing thought is that, at the top of his backswing, he wanted to feel as though his hands were reaching for the sky. Two things he felt you could never do were take the club back too slowly, or get your hands too high at the top.

I've been trying to impliment this , and it looks like it's starting to gel for me. One thing I noticed to keep and eye out for if you try this, is that there was a tendency for me to tighten up in the arms when doing this, with disastrous results. I'm able to stay loose now and it works great. So, make sure to be aware of this.

Jack was definitely a left/right hitter. This is kind of a dandruff shampoo commercial situation. "But you don't have dandruff..." "Exactly". Jack didn't have a draw/hook/push *because* of these swing keys. If you've suffered as I have, I highly recommend "Golf My Way".

Bravo... It surprises me that Hogan's stuff gave you a right/left movement. He pretty much based his swing around *fighting* that. Although he did have a very flat swingplain, so if that's part of what you've developed, draws will happen. Just be careful not to let it get away from you. I personally think that the mistakes on that side of the fence will hurt you much worse. Good luck with it.

[Bravo35223]

You know - I am not good enough to know for certain if the Hogan stuff is causing the right to left or not..

I got a series of lessons in the winter and spring that helped me get back on track and I coupled this with several items from the Hogan book and now I am hitting it straighter and with more juice...

Honestly, I would have to practice much more often and take many more lessons to really learn my cause and effect.

[CAuger]

I have a fairly flat swing (that I'm trying to correct with my swing coach) and have a tendency to hook the ball on a bad swing.

However, one of the things he has my keyed in on is to accept lateral movement of the head in the swing. I tend to keep my head dead still but there is supposed to be 4-5 inches of lateral movement during the backswing depending on the build of the person. It then returns to it's place just inside the back foot at impact.

Food for thought on curing your problems.

[bdcrowe]

I have a fairly flat swing (that I'm trying to correct with my swing coach) and have a tendency to hook the ball on a bad swing.

However, one of the things he has my keyed in on is to accept lateral movement of the head in the swing. I tend to keep my head dead still but there is supposed to be 4-5 inches of lateral movement during the backswing depending on the build of the person. It then returns to it's place just inside the back foot at impact.

Food for thought on curing your problems.

Interesting. I too have always had a very still head, and thought it was a good thing. Jack gave some pretty good arguments for a still head in his writings, tho. Definitely food for thought.

[collegegolfer]

I used to have a very flat inside swing (about 5 years ago) and now I am just a little flat and inside. Your ideas sound good. What I did was set two clubs parallel (target line and foot/shoulder line) and had someone watch me swing. I also stuck a broken shaft in the ground behind me straight down the target line (if it extended backwards). This shaft was far enough back so I couldn't hit it but I would make it feel as if the club was going to hit it on the way back. This kept me outside longer and allowed me to get into a more anti-hook/block position at the top. Just my method, there are many others.

[Ernieimnot]

Let me first say this will be my first post on this site! I’ve been to this site several times to review equipment, but just didn’t take the time to read the forum section. Well, today I’m glad to say, I decided to take a few minutes and glance over the topics. Was I glad I did! Irishgolfer –reading your post was like describing my swing. I’m a tall golfer (6’3”) which has constantly strived to “find” my swing. After reading your post, and the other comments, I definitely have some food for thought. I suspected some of my problems with driving, and inconsistent iron striking, were generated from having a too upright swing. So, I tried to shallow out my swing thinking this was my problem. Then I became totally confused when I encountered the sporadic blocks to the right, complete with the occasional duck hook! So, thanks to you guys maybe I can go back to the range with a bit more upright swing, and remember what it was like to strike the pose when one has just nailed it in the screws!
It’s great to know that other golfers “feel my pain!” Damn that Ernie! He makes it look so easy!

[Irishgolfer]

Let me first say this will be my first post on this site! I’ve been to this site several times to review equipment, but just didn’t take the time to read the forum section. Well, today I’m glad to say, I decided to take a few minutes and glance over the topics. Was I glad I did! Irishgolfer –reading your post was like describing my swing. I’m a tall golfer (6’3”) which has constantly strived to “find” my swing. After reading your post, and the other comments, I definitely have some food for thought. I suspected some of my problems with driving, and inconsistent iron striking, were generated from having a too upright swing. So, I tried to shallow out my swing thinking this was my problem. Then I became totally confused when I encountered the sporadic blocks to the right, complete with the occasional duck hook! So, thanks to you guys maybe I can go back to the range with a bit more upright swing, and remember what it was like to strike the pose when one has just nailed it in the screws!
It’s great to know that other golfers “feel my pain!” Damn that Ernie! He makes it look so easy!

Welcome on board Ernieimnot. Let me know how you get on.