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  1. #1
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    how far south the snow?

    Gentlemen, rapscallions, hoboes and drunks (and Larry),

    Dallas was getting heavy snow when daylight broke this morning... now daylight is almost gone, and it simply has not stopped snowing, fairly heavily at times, all day long.... even though today is above freezing, we have six inches or more in my back yard, the most snow I've seen since my last ski trip in 1991...

    and this is the FOURTH significant snow in the past ten weeks... I have no doubt it's a new DFW record for the winter, and it's not over yet...

    Anyone south of me, not counting the southern hemisphere of course, and getting snow?

    Maybe I should include the southern hemisphere, given the snow records we're seeing.. :-)

    Radio guy just said 3-4 inches "on top of what we already have" will be falling tonight.. and we already have 6 inches...

    morning temp will be solidly frozen, too, mid 20s.

    This is Al Gore Madness!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Gentlemen, rapscallions, hoboes and drunks (and Larry),

    Dallas was getting heavy snow when daylight broke this morning... now daylight is almost gone, and it simply has not stopped snowing, fairly heavily at times, all day long.... even though today is above freezing, we have six inches or more in my back yard, the most snow I've seen since my last ski trip in 1991...

    and this is the FOURTH significant snow in the past ten weeks... I have no doubt it's a new DFW record for the winter, and it's not over yet...

    Anyone south of me, not counting the southern hemisphere of course, and getting snow?

    Maybe I should include the southern hemisphere, given the snow records we're seeing.. :-)

    Radio guy just said 3-4 inches "on top of what we already have" will be falling tonight.. and we already have 6 inches...

    morning temp will be solidly frozen, too, mid 20s.

    This is Al Gore Madness!!!!!!
    I'm figuring that Al Gore is locked away in a basement somewhere trying to hide from the masses about now.

    This Winter has literally sucked for us here in Oklahoma. I can remember having some Winters like this whenever I was younger and growing up in the late 70s and early 80s, but we have been very spoiled for the last 20 years. I don't think I have got to play golf 4 times since Winter began back in December! Last year I had already played 30 days or more.

    It's rare for us to have more than 3 inches of snow or ice the whole Winter and we have already had nearly 20"! We've had 2 major winter storms that have devastated our area in some way or another and there is still a lot of Winter left (the biggest snowstorms we have on record have both occurred during the month of March). This weather sucks!!!!!!!

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  3. #3
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    here's what it was like this morning around ten. It's twice this deep now, and still snowing hard at 7:30 PM

    THis is not minneapolis. Dallas is about even, latitude wise, with Gaza. Houston is even with Cairo.

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    Just think, Dave, Washington DC is buried under about 4 feet of this stuff, isn't it great? Our government is at a standstill and they have accomplished about as much as they have the whole last year . . . . . .
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    Just think, Dave, Washington DC is buried under about 4 feet of this stuff, isn't it great? Our government is at a standstill and they have accomplished about as much as they have the whole last year . . . . . .
    Every day the government doesn't show up for work is a day they're not scheming to eviscerate the taxpayer... if it snows a foot a day in DC for the rest of my life, that's a good start.

    :-)
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    better hope the wind doesn't blow...usually when it snows all day above freezing, its a heavy (wet) snow that starts bending trees down towards power lines...add some wind and your out of power for a few days

    I just checked your wind forecast, and you should be fine.

    I live near Richmond, Virginia and we have had way more snow than usual, but if I lived 45 miles further north, I would have gotten that same snowfall that hit Washington.
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  7. #7
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    p.s.

    Radio guy just said this year is Dallas snow all time record, breaking old one from 1917. DFW Airport reports a one day record, 7.9 inches.. still falling, fifteen hours straight now...

    why am I listening to the radio at night? Cuz my satellite dish is under snow and I can't see television. My house is two story with sharp slant roof... dish is on top.. I'm not going up there to clear it off, or else I"ll be coming down way faster than I went up. :-)

    so I probably won't get TV for a couple of days.

    Gore, you b@sturd, fly that dammn Gulfstream down here and take what's comin' to ya... wait.. airport's delayed cuz of snow..

    I'll just say bad things about him instead.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    p.s.

    Radio guy just said this year is Dallas snow all time record, breaking old one from 1917. DFW Airport reports a one day record, 7.9 inches.. still falling, fifteen hours straight now...

    why am I listening to the radio at night? Cuz my satellite dish is under snow and I can't see television. My house is two story with sharp slant roof... dish is on top.. I'm not going up there to clear it off, or else I"ll be coming down way faster than I went up. :-)

    so I probably won't get TV for a couple of days.

    Gore, you b@sturd, fly that dammn Gulfstream down here and take what's comin' to ya... wait.. airport's delayed cuz of snow..

    I'll just say bad things about him instead.
    increases in snow and rain are byproducts of global warming...warmer global temps lead to less ice and glaciers and more moisture in the atmosphere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    increases in snow and rain are byproducts of global warming...warmer global temps lead to less ice and glaciers and more moisture in the atmosphere.
    I've noticed my ballstriking has gotten even better with global warming.

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    I think what really sucks for you guys is the snow may be falling on flat land? Just wondering...

    I wish it snowed in San Francisco; we could have built ramps out of snow, and snowboarded all day long. No snow here, just nice weather, and light sprinkles.

    A little local knowledge for you guys about the cable cars... It was in the late 1800's I think, and the inventor of the cable cars used to watch the horses drag the carriages up the steep hills...

    The horses would often slip on a hoof and shatter a knee or leg, and the inventor of the cable car would watch the horses get shot in the head all the time, since you couldn't save them.

    Anyways, that is how the cable car was invented. I learned this from word of mouth, and I won't google it, as I believe it is true, growing up here.

    As sure as a Mazda Miata hugs the road, like men hug men, I am sure this is true.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    increases in snow and rain are byproducts of global warming...warmer global temps lead to less ice and glaciers and more moisture in the atmosphere.
    What about the coldest northern hemisphere winter in decades? Byproduct of global warming?
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Gentlemen, rapscallions, hoboes and drunks (and Larry),

    Dallas was getting heavy snow when daylight broke this morning... now daylight is almost gone, and it simply has not stopped snowing, fairly heavily at times, all day long.... even though today is above freezing, we have six inches or more in my back yard, the most snow I've seen since my last ski trip in 1991...

    and this is the FOURTH significant snow in the past ten weeks... I have no doubt it's a new DFW record for the winter, and it's not over yet...

    Anyone south of me, not counting the southern hemisphere of course, and getting snow?

    Maybe I should include the southern hemisphere, given the snow records we're seeing.. :-)

    Radio guy just said 3-4 inches "on top of what we already have" will be falling tonight.. and we already have 6 inches...

    morning temp will be solidly frozen, too, mid 20s.

    This is Al Gore Madness!!!!!!
    Don't feel bad, we in Wilmington Delaware got 20-25" last Sat and 10-15" of WET snow on top of that on Wed... the second snow is the worse one because it's a wet snow with high wind... Luckily I have a 2-stage snow blower so it's not a major issue

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    increases in snow and rain are byproducts of global warming...warmer global temps lead to less ice and glaciers and more moisture in the atmosphere.
    "the severe winter is caused by too much heat" is really a silly argument. And it can be easily checked by a look back over a hundred years or so, when records are kept of such things.

    Glaciers are not melting. Cap ice north and south is increasing, not decreasing. And heavy snow records happen during times when average temperatures are low.... remember all the snow in the 70s and early 80s, the stuff that caused scientists to predict the coming ice age? Same scientists we're hearing this 'snow caused by global warming' crap from now. Older but no wiser. only back then, their alarmism was manifested in books that nobody bought. Nowadays they work for Obama.

    We did not get heavy snow records during the late 1990s when it actually WAS warmer. Nor did we get them in the early 1930s when heat was even worse than 1998. In the summer of 1931 they got 100 degrees or more in Washington DC for thirty days STRAIGHT. But no record snows that winter or any other in that decade. Records were set twenty years earlier, like the Dallas record of 1917 that we broke yesterday.

    For 20 yrs 'scientists' claimed that, the warmer earth got, the more greenhouse effect would prevent solar radiation from reflecting off it and thus not transferring heat to earth, and we'd be trapped in runaway warming.

    nineteen different research projects all had computer models with an upward sweep in heat and a downward prediction in radiated reflection of sun's heat back into space.

    Then they put up a satellite and started measuring reflected heat.

    And the 19 charts of downward reflected heat predictions were all totally embarrassed by an actual measurement, over 20 years, of INCREASED reflected heat while the earth was warming.

    almost as if... the earth KNEW how to modulate its temperatures to maintain stability of ecosystems... gasp.

    oh, and by the way.. there've been pretty much NO sunspots or solar flares since 2006... the next eleven year cycle of solar activity increase should have started four years ago, and it hasn't started YET. It's called Solar Cycle 24. This period of quietness of the sun is not unprecedented... it's called a Maunder Minimum, named after the guy who discovered it when it happened 400 years ago... that was called 'the little ice age', when a generation of Europeans died because their crops didn't grow in the cold. It lasted 30 years or so. There was another one a couple hundred years later, and it trapped Napoleon's army in the Russian winter and killed off a lot of them. INcredible cold. And we're well into another Maunder Minimum now. And look-- since 2004, it's gotten colder! gasp. Solar flares radiate massive amounts of energy. Right now there are none, and they should have started up again four years ago, and the cycle should be PEAKING RIGHT NOW.

    But no.

    Unusually low energy from sun? Unusually low temperatures on earth. Phil Jones, call your office. Wait.. he's going to lose that job after the investigation... :-)
    Last edited by daveperkins; 02-12-2010 at 07:06 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by spanqdoggie
    I think what really sucks for you guys is the snow may be falling on flat land? Just wondering...

    I wish it snowed in San Francisco; we could have built ramps out of snow, and snowboarded all day long. No snow here, just nice weather, and light sprinkles.

    A little local knowledge for you guys about the cable cars... It was in the late 1800's I think, and the inventor of the cable cars used to watch the horses drag the carriages up the steep hills...

    The horses would often slip on a hoof and shatter a knee or leg, and the inventor of the cable car would watch the horses get shot in the head all the time, since you couldn't save them.

    Anyways, that is how the cable car was invented. I learned this from word of mouth, and I won't google it, as I believe it is true, growing up here.

    As sure as a Mazda Miata hugs the road, like men hug men, I am sure this is true.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I've noticed my ballstriking has gotten even better with global warming.
    My arthritis has gotten worse since all these Gore flakes hit my driving range.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    Don't feel bad, we in Wilmington Delaware got 20-25" last Sat and 10-15" of WET snow on top of that on Wed... the second snow is the worse one because it's a wet snow with high wind... Luckily I have a 2-stage snow blower so it's not a major issue
    You're going to need a bulldozer if this keeps up. Post video.
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  17. #17
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    I'm in serious danger of breaking my golf in every month streak. We've got a good 10" on the ground with more to come. The 10 day forecast is downright depressing. I keep looking at the day by day averages on Weather Channel. It's supposed to be around 45* for the high, but we haven't come within 15 degrees of that. My poor dog can't even take a sh!t because of the snow.
    I've got a Phoenix golf trip in March that can't come soon enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    I'm in serious danger of breaking my golf in every month streak. We've got a good 10" on the ground with more to come. The 10 day forecast is downright depressing. I keep looking at the day by day averages on Weather Channel. It's supposed to be around 45* for the high, but we haven't come within 15 degrees of that. My poor dog can't even take a sh!t because of the snow.
    I've got a Phoenix golf trip in March that can't come soon enough.

    "I feel your pain!"
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    You snow veterans of the frozen north, forgive me my childish amazement at this snow down here in Dallas. :-) It's just that this DOESN"T HAPPEN.

    yesterday afternoon's update vid. Snowed for about 18 hours, and when I checked this morning I had 8 inches in the yard. It's not even frozen here, water running down the street under the snow, so no ice or bad conditions, just lots of squishy scrunchy wet snow.

    Dallas Ft. Worth airport this morning has reported an all time record snowfall of 12 inches plus.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    "the severe winter is caused by too much heat" is really a silly argument. And it can be easily checked by a look back over a hundred years or so, when records are kept of such things.

    Glaciers are not melting. Cap ice north and south is increasing, not decreasing. And heavy snow records happen during times when average temperatures are low.... remember all the snow in the 70s and early 80s, the stuff that caused scientists to predict the coming ice age? Same scientists we're hearing this 'snow caused by global warming' crap from now. Older but no wiser. only back then, their alarmism was manifested in books that nobody bought. Nowadays they work for Obama.

    We did not get heavy snow records during the late 1990s when it actually WAS warmer. Nor did we get them in the early 1930s when heat was even worse than 1998. In the summer of 1931 they got 100 degrees or more in Washington DC for thirty days STRAIGHT. But no record snows that winter or any other in that decade. Records were set twenty years earlier, like the Dallas record of 1917 that we broke yesterday.

    For 20 yrs 'scientists' claimed that, the warmer earth got, the more greenhouse effect would prevent solar radiation from reflecting off it and thus not transferring heat to earth, and we'd be trapped in runaway warming.

    nineteen different research projects all had computer models with an upward sweep in heat and a downward prediction in radiated reflection of sun's heat back into space.

    Then they put up a satellite and started measuring reflected heat.

    And the 19 charts of downward reflected heat predictions were all totally embarrassed by an actual measurement, over 20 years, of INCREASED reflected heat while the earth was warming.

    almost as if... the earth KNEW how to modulate its temperatures to maintain stability of ecosystems... gasp.

    oh, and by the way.. there've been pretty much NO sunspots or solar flares since 2006... the next eleven year cycle of solar activity increase should have started four years ago, and it hasn't started YET. It's called Solar Cycle 24. This period of quietness of the sun is not unprecedented... it's called a Maunder Minimum, named after the guy who discovered it when it happened 400 years ago... that was called 'the little ice age', when a generation of Europeans died because their crops didn't grow in the cold. It lasted 30 years or so. There was another one a couple hundred years later, and it trapped Napoleon's army in the Russian winter and killed off a lot of them. INcredible cold. And we're well into another Maunder Minimum now. And look-- since 2004, it's gotten colder! gasp. Solar flares radiate massive amounts of energy. Right now there are none, and they should have started up again four years ago, and the cycle should be PEAKING RIGHT NOW.

    But no.

    Unusually low energy from sun? Unusually low temperatures on earth. Phil Jones, call your office. Wait.. he's going to lose that job after the investigation... :-)
    Nice work Dave. I am really glad you are embracing some science. I especially like your understanding of Solar Cycles.

    Many factors contribute to weather patterns and temperature fluctuations. I am just informing you that increasing CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere also contributes to the big picture of global temperature fluctuation and weather patterns. CO2 increases cause less heat to escape the atmosphere, but it doesn't affect how much radiation is reflected off the surface or how much is hitting the surface of the earth.

    Honestly, CO2 probably hasn't reached high enough concentrations to cause massive climatic changes yet, but if man made CO2 emissions continue to increase and drive the atmospheric concentrations up, the problems could me much worse for future generations. Having 2 parts per million of Mercury in your drinking water might not hurt you in the least bit, but keep letting the concentration get higher and by 10 ppm you will be getting f@!$ed up.

    Funny how people say "global warming must be fake because it is snowing." Its kind of like saying "smoking can't be bad for you, Uncle Johnny lived to be 88 yrs old and he smoked a pack a day."
    Last edited by The Purist; 02-12-2010 at 10:05 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    Nice work Dave. I am really glad you are embracing some science. I especially like your understanding of Solar Cycles.

    Many factors contribute to weather patterns and temperature fluctuations. I am just informing you that increasing CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere also contributes to the big picture of global temperature fluctuation and weather patterns. CO2 increases cause less heat to escape the atmosphere, but it doesn't affect how much radiation is reflected off the surface or how much is hitting the surface of the earth.

    Honestly, CO2 probably hasn't reached high enough concentrations to cause massive climatic changes yet, but if man made CO2 emissions continue to increase and drive the atmospheric concentrations up, the problems could me much worse for future generations. Having 2 parts per million of Mercury in your drinking water might not hurt you in the least bit, but keep letting the concentration get higher and by 10 ppm you will be getting f@!$ed up.

    Funny how people say "global warming must be fake because it is snowing." Its kind of like saying "smoking can't be bad for your, Uncle Johnny lived to be 88 yrs old and he smoked a pack a day."

    AND, this of course is true, so what's your point?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    Nice work Dave. I am really glad you are embracing some science. I especially like your understanding of Solar Cycles.

    Many factors contribute to weather patterns and temperature fluctuations. I am just informing you that increasing CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere also contributes to the big picture of global temperature fluctuation and weather patterns. CO2 increases cause less heat to escape the atmosphere, but it doesn't affect how much radiation is reflected off the surface or how much is hitting the surface of the earth.

    Honestly, CO2 probably hasn't reached high enough concentrations to cause massive climatic changes yet, but if man made CO2 emissions continue to increase and drive the atmospheric concentrations up, the problems could me much worse for future generations. Having 2 parts per million of Mercury in your drinking water might not hurt you in the least bit, but keep letting the concentration get higher and by 10 ppm you will be getting f@!$ed up.

    Funny how people say "global warming must be fake because it is snowing." Its kind of like saying "smoking can't be bad for you, Uncle Johnny lived to be 88 yrs old and he smoked a pack a day."
    Well, the patronizing tone of this post is the least of your troubles, Science Guy... :-)

    CO2 concentrations in history have been MUCH higher than they are now, and the runaway warming of earth was out of the question, never happened. Ice ages still came and went. Not to mention CO2 increases, on a timeline, lag behind temperature increases by several hundred years, meaning the CO2 is a RESULT of the increase, not its cause.

    And it isn't "my understanding of solar cycles", it's the solar cycles themselves. They coincide with historical patterns of heat and cold. It's just fact.

    Over 95% of "greenhouse gases" is water vapor, i.e. clouds, and "SCIENCE" simply cannot predict clouds. Clouds are LEFT OUT of all the wonderful 'climate change computer models' presented by the IPCC fraud squad. They cannot predict them, and would look like fools trying, so they just whistle past the graveyard and ignore 95% of the greenhouse gas. CO2, then, is actually less than 3%. MANMADE CO2 is a tiny fraction of THAT. And plants consume CO2. The warmer the climate, the more plants thrive in formerly frozen zones, and the more plants, the more CO2 consumption, one of the many self-regulating processes of this glorious mother earth. Oceanic absorption is another.

    I'm just sayin. :-)

    FWIW, the current co2 level is in the hundreds of parts per million, not ten as you said with some alarmism. :-)

    Keith Briffa (climate scientist in the field) hand picked three trees from northern Europe, out of millions of trees, because their rings did NOT show the medieval warm period, which the 'scientists' all agreed had to be stricken from the historical record so that today's temps would seem warmer. But Briffa's three trees also did not show MODERN warming, because they were ABERRANT trees, that's why Briffa PICKED them...

    so "Mike's nature trick" was used to "Hide the decline" in Briffa's tree ring proxy temperatures. The trick was, they pasted on actual thermometer data after 1960, switching sources from tree rings to temp stations, and DID NOT MENTION THAT IN THEIR SCIENCE. The infamous "hockey stick" chart resulted.

    I prefer to call it the three wood chart, but there we are.

    the cut and paste was the 'trick' to hide the decline which would have proved the tree ring proxies were faulty. It was fraud, not even CLOSE to science.

    After this, I simply cannot just blithely accept what these 'scientist' frauds are telling me, not without a level of certainty higher than 'consensus', which appears to be their primary defense and which is the OPPOSITE of the demonstrable repeatable proofs of a scientific theory. Consensus is POLITICS not science.

    Oh, and when the global warmeners stop screaming GLOBAL WARMING every time there's a hot spell or a hurricane, I might consider not drawing so much attention to this bloody cold, ice and snow. Fair's fair. :-)))
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    Okay, last vid.. "The Day After"... I'll end my obsession with this snow starting tomorrow... :-)

    But it really is amazing for this town. Oh, and there was snow today in Rome also.. Italy, not Georgia. real snow, not just a dusting, it screwed up the traffic for the poor Italian folk and was described as their first snow in 25 years.

    Same week as our heaviest snow EVER.

    here is the Rome story

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100212/...s_italy_snow_1


    It's almost.... GLOBAL. :-))))


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    I'm in Houston and experienced this latest, very cold storm twice. In California a few days ago and yesterday here. Apparently the snow line was around 75 miles to the north. It's really frigid here. Looking forward to getting back home.

    I just wish we could bring about global cooling so it could warm up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    I'm in Houston and experienced this latest, very cold storm twice. In California a few days ago and yesterday here. Apparently the snow line was around 75 miles to the north. It's really frigid here. Looking forward to getting back home.

    I just wish we could bring about global cooling so it could warm up.
    Geez... I never heard of anyone wanting to leave Houston because it was too COLD.. :-)

    Now that's a real piece of purely anecdotal nonscientific redneck evidence that global warming is a fraud! :-)))))

    put your finger on Houston on a globe, spin it, and stop when you see the middle of the mediterranean, and you'll find your finger is on Cairo, Egypt.

    Not a cold place, Houston. I remember in the winter of '04-'05 when I was there, we had fully one morning in the whole winter when a tiny bit of frost appeared on car windshields. Avg daytime highs that winter were in the high seventies to low eighties.

    Then again, Houston ate a big hurricane a couple of years ago, Ike... so that must be anecdotal proof that global warming is going to kill us all...

    this science stuff is HARD..... the Purist is right, he SHOULD be proud of me for understanding stuff.. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    You're going to need a bulldozer if this keeps up. Post video.
    I did not make a video but here I am enjoying the snow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    Don't feel bad, we in Wilmington Delaware got 20-25" last Sat and 10-15" of WET snow on top of that on Wed... the second snow is the worse one because it's a wet snow with high wind... Luckily I have a 2-stage snow blower so it's not a major issue
    What in the hell are you doing with a snow blower in Wilmington, DE?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    What in the hell are you doing with a snow blower in Wilmington, DE?
    I don't have the luxury of living in SC so I use it to blow .... snow, make sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    I did not make a video but here I am enjoying the snow
    That's quite a snow . . . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    I did not make a video but here I am enjoying the snow
    looks like a couple feet of Gore flakes to me.. :-) party on...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    I don't have the luxury of living in SC so I use it to blow .... snow, make sense?
    With an average annual snowfall of 21" for Wilmington, not really. Maybe I ought to get one for my place in Orange County.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    With an average annual snowfall of 21" for Wilmington, not really. Maybe I ought to get one for my place in Orange County.
    We hit a record this year, 71" so far, the record WAS 68"... and winter is not over yet... Normally we get no more than 20" a year... in general one 6-10" and a few 2-3" here and there, nothing like this year, we got one 20" before Christmas, 20-25" last Sat and 10-15" a few days ago last Wed... Shìittt... I am glad that my snow blower has not let me down, Thanks GOD for that

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Well, the patronizing tone of this post is the least of your troubles, Science Guy... :-)

    CO2 concentrations in history have been MUCH higher than they are now, and the runaway warming of earth was out of the question, never happened. Ice ages still came and went. Not to mention CO2 increases, on a timeline, lag behind temperature increases by several hundred years, meaning the CO2 is a RESULT of the increase, not its cause.

    And it isn't "my understanding of solar cycles", it's the solar cycles themselves. They coincide with historical patterns of heat and cold. It's just fact.

    Over 95% of "greenhouse gases" is water vapor, i.e. clouds, and "SCIENCE" simply cannot predict clouds. Clouds are LEFT OUT of all the wonderful 'climate change computer models' presented by the IPCC fraud squad. They cannot predict them, and would look like fools trying, so they just whistle past the graveyard and ignore 95% of the greenhouse gas. CO2, then, is actually less than 3%. MANMADE CO2 is a tiny fraction of THAT. And plants consume CO2. The warmer the climate, the more plants thrive in formerly frozen zones, and the more plants, the more CO2 consumption, one of the many self-regulating processes of this glorious mother earth. Oceanic absorption is another.

    I'm just sayin. :-)

    FWIW, the current co2 level is in the hundreds of parts per million, not ten as you said with some alarmism. :-)

    Keith Briffa (climate scientist in the field) hand picked three trees from northern Europe, out of millions of trees, because their rings did NOT show the medieval warm period, which the 'scientists' all agreed had to be stricken from the historical record so that today's temps would seem warmer. But Briffa's three trees also did not show MODERN warming, because they were ABERRANT trees, that's why Briffa PICKED them...

    so "Mike's nature trick" was used to "Hide the decline" in Briffa's tree ring proxy temperatures. The trick was, they pasted on actual thermometer data after 1960, switching sources from tree rings to temp stations, and DID NOT MENTION THAT IN THEIR SCIENCE. The infamous "hockey stick" chart resulted.

    I prefer to call it the three wood chart, but there we are.

    the cut and paste was the 'trick' to hide the decline which would have proved the tree ring proxies were faulty. It was fraud, not even CLOSE to science.

    After this, I simply cannot just blithely accept what these 'scientist' frauds are telling me, not without a level of certainty higher than 'consensus', which appears to be their primary defense and which is the OPPOSITE of the demonstrable repeatable proofs of a scientific theory. Consensus is POLITICS not science.

    Oh, and when the global warmeners stop screaming GLOBAL WARMING every time there's a hot spell or a hurricane, I might consider not drawing so much attention to this bloody cold, ice and snow. Fair's fair. :-)))
    I like you Dave. You would make a damn fine lawyer. I have a sneaky suspicion that you secretly understand the science of global warming, but still argue the other side...just because you can. I agree that global warming alarmists can be quite annoying, and that some of the effects of global warming may be exaggerated. It still doesn't change the fact that humans are producing a schit-load of CO2 and other greenhouse gases, and that increasing CO2 levels will cause the atmosphere to retain more heat than it would otherwise. Show me the experiments that show humans aren't creating significant volumes of CO2 or that CO2 concentration in the atmosphere has no affect on heat retention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    I like you Dave. You would make a damn fine lawyer. I have a sneaky suspicion that you secretly understand the science of global warming, but still argue the other side...just because you can. I agree that global warming alarmists can be quite annoying, and that some of the effects of global warming may be exaggerated. It still doesn't change the fact that humans are producing a schit-load of CO2 and other greenhouse gases, and that increasing CO2 levels will cause the atmosphere to retain more heat than it would otherwise. Show me the experiments that show humans aren't creating significant volumes of CO2 or that CO2 concentration in the atmosphere has no affect on heat retention.
    Heh, still insulting me, now by saying I'd be a good LAWYER. ;-))))

    What we are told by the so called scientists (those who arrive at their experiments with an outcome already selected, then 'nudge' their data and formulae to give the chosen outcome) is that mankind is causing, by his existence and pursuit of material improvement, a runaway train of warming whose only answer is an immediate curtailing of most commerce and a vast redistribution of world wealth. This is the proposed solution, either by progress toward it or by immediate adaptation of all of it. EVERY ONE OF THEM proposes this. They came from the leftist halls of academia straight into government funded 'jobs' as scientists, never had to earn a living or produce anything or sell anything, don't know anything about how the economy actually works. Leftist nerds with dangerous ideas which migrate into their science and corrupt it.

    What fascist, statist, socialist and communist governments used to plead "for the good of the State", now environmentalists plead "for the good of the Planet". But the plea is the same. Centralize wealth, centralize planning, centralize industry and education and science, so that the 'elite intellectuals who know what's best in a complex world' can make all our decisions for us. Don't forget that communism tried to take over the world for fifty years, spreading its influence over dozens of countries, causing an arms race in a 'cold war', and for this same reason-- for the good of the world. They lost, but they did not give up. They adopted environmentalism instead. But this is the leftist impulse to change everything for the good of the world.. The 20th century shows how well that works, right? a hundred million people dead under Mao, Stalin, Hitler. It's all the same impulse-- it feels like 'doing good' until the decisions start being made about who should die 'for the good of the world'. Then it's too late to change one's mind about leftism, because changing your mind will put YOU on the list.

    Change now! We must do it or we'll all die! "Necessity.. the tyrant's plea", as Milton put it.

    We are a fortunate lot indeed, that the juvenile and incompetent scientists allowed their little scheme to get so out of control that somewhere, somehow, somebody decided for the ACTUAL good of the world to expose them. It had to be done anonymously, because retribution has already been effectively used on numerous uncomfortable real scientists who felt badly about this vast deceit and considered whistle-blowing. They were blackballed, frozen out of grant money, denied trade rag publication for their skeptical articles... it's all in those emails... those little brats were chuckling with glee when one of their skeptics, a longtime expert, happened to die on them...

    scheming to delete emails on a subject that was getting FOI requests.. that's a felony in the UK and the US... Briffa's three trees in a region of hundreds of millions of trees... why those three? "Glaciers melting in Himalayas by 2035" turns out to be one guy speculating with no data to support, but ends up 'vetted and peer reviewed fact' in IPCC report, now that's real competent professional science, eh? Original report in 2001 said seas could rise three feet, 'revised' report in 2007 says okay, you got us, the high end is more like six inches, and probably only a couple.. but the 'three feet' gets all the publicity... all that screaming about more and more dangerous hurricanes after Katrina... so have our hurricanes been more or less than average since then? anyone? anyone? (crickets) Al Gore isn't just a bumbling fool, he's a menace to all humanity, he knows it, he's doing all this to make himself into a billionaire, and he won't take questions from reporters for SIX YEARS AND COUNTING. If he was a genuine climate evangelist spreading a truth that he believes the world needs to hear, he would take questions eagerly, to help educate the skeptics, to fulfill his mission to save the world. But he won't. He knows he's wrong, doesn't care.

    And Briffa's trees... "gotta make medieval warm period disappear"... yeah, or modern temperatures don't look all that hot, right? Gotta paste on data from different sources on a contiguous chart and NOT TELL ANYONE that the source of the data changed at a certain time point... cuz when we do that, it's most convincing.. and that one chart, the "hockey stick chart" is still being used today in all the same alarmist literature even though it's been utterly discredited for several years now.

    Make no mistake, the UN's group of 'scientists' were on a mission, and doubtless there was some UN approval, if not outright encouragement, for that mission-- to use science to convince the world that massive government structures and massive taxes to redistribute world wealth and punish industry were NECESSARY, had to be done, for the 'GOOD OF THE PLANET'. Punishing industry and redistributing wealth just happen to be the primary agents of change for communist regimes over the past hundred years or so. Coincidence I'm sure.... not.

    On one side, the American idea of individual liberty and free markets. On the other side, Maoism/Leninism/Marxism/Statism/Fascism/Socialism/Communism/Leftism.

    And now environmentalism, which is one of them.

    If it were up to me, I'd take a couple of bit Cat dozers and scrape that dammn UN building off the island and into the Atlantic, and tell them to build their own.. SOMEWHERE ELSE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pky6471
    We hit a record this year, 71" so far, the record WAS 68"... and winter is not over yet... Normally we get no more than 20" a year... in general one 6-10" and a few 2-3" here and there, nothing like this year, we got one 20" before Christmas, 20-25" last Sat and 10-15" a few days ago last Wed... Shìittt... I am glad that my snow blower has not let me down, Thanks GOD for that

    The reason I don't live in Delaware is I wouldn't be able to accept the avalanche risk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    The reason I don't live in Delaware is I wouldn't be able to accept the avalanche risk.
    ,
    I can't have the same standard of living if I'd lived in SCa, for the same house in a nice neighborhơod I probably have to pay 1.3-1.8 MM, no can't do. SCa has same different problems with smog, traffic, wild fires, mud slides..etc... so we just have to pick what best .... in a few years I will be retiring in scottdale/Phoenix area, I can put up with dry heat during summer, the rest of the year should be OK weather

  37. #37
    [QUOTE=The Purist]I like you Dave. You would make a damn fine lawyer. I have a sneaky suspicion that you secretly understand the science of global warming, but still argue the other side...

    And class.. This is what psychologists call "projection."
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    Reading Dave's posts got me to thinking. Where the hell is FON???
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    [QUOTE=Home-slicer]
    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    I like you Dave. You would make a damn fine lawyer. I have a sneaky suspicion that you secretly understand the science of global warming, but still argue the other side...

    And class.. This is what psychologists call "projection."
    I am a big fan of your dry humor and one liners...Have you ever noticed that Dentists and Computer Service Techs usually have the driest senses of humor. Anyway, I think hear opportunity knocking...someone resurrected the Maxfli Fire Thread.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Heh, still insulting me, now by saying I'd be a good LAWYER. ;-))))

    What we are told by the so called scientists (those who arrive at their experiments with an outcome already selected, then 'nudge' their data and formulae to give the chosen outcome) is that mankind is causing, by his existence and pursuit of material improvement, a runaway train of warming whose only answer is an immediate curtailing of most commerce and a vast redistribution of world wealth. This is the proposed solution, either by progress toward it or by immediate adaptation of all of it. EVERY ONE OF THEM proposes this. They came from the leftist halls of academia straight into government funded 'jobs' as scientists, never had to earn a living or produce anything or sell anything, don't know anything about how the economy actually works. Leftist nerds with dangerous ideas which migrate into their science and corrupt it.

    What fascist, statist, socialist and communist governments used to plead "for the good of the State", now environmentalists plead "for the good of the Planet". But the plea is the same. Centralize wealth, centralize planning, centralize industry and education and science, so that the 'elite intellectuals who know what's best in a complex world' can make all our decisions for us. Don't forget that communism tried to take over the world for fifty years, spreading its influence over dozens of countries, causing an arms race in a 'cold war', and for this same reason-- for the good of the world. They lost, but they did not give up. They adopted environmentalism instead. But this is the leftist impulse to change everything for the good of the world.. The 20th century shows how well that works, right? a hundred million people dead under Mao, Stalin, Hitler. It's all the same impulse-- it feels like 'doing good' until the decisions start being made about who should die 'for the good of the world'. Then it's too late to change one's mind about leftism, because changing your mind will put YOU on the list.

    Change now! We must do it or we'll all die! "Necessity.. the tyrant's plea", as Milton put it.

    We are a fortunate lot indeed, that the juvenile and incompetent scientists allowed their little scheme to get so out of control that somewhere, somehow, somebody decided for the ACTUAL good of the world to expose them. It had to be done anonymously, because retribution has already been effectively used on numerous uncomfortable real scientists who felt badly about this vast deceit and considered whistle-blowing. They were blackballed, frozen out of grant money, denied trade rag publication for their skeptical articles... it's all in those emails... those little brats were chuckling with glee when one of their skeptics, a longtime expert, happened to die on them...

    scheming to delete emails on a subject that was getting FOI requests.. that's a felony in the UK and the US... Briffa's three trees in a region of hundreds of millions of trees... why those three? "Glaciers melting in Himalayas by 2035" turns out to be one guy speculating with no data to support, but ends up 'vetted and peer reviewed fact' in IPCC report, now that's real competent professional science, eh? Original report in 2001 said seas could rise three feet, 'revised' report in 2007 says okay, you got us, the high end is more like six inches, and probably only a couple.. but the 'three feet' gets all the publicity... all that screaming about more and more dangerous hurricanes after Katrina... so have our hurricanes been more or less than average since then? anyone? anyone? (crickets) Al Gore isn't just a bumbling fool, he's a menace to all humanity, he knows it, he's doing all this to make himself into a billionaire, and he won't take questions from reporters for SIX YEARS AND COUNTING. If he was a genuine climate evangelist spreading a truth that he believes the world needs to hear, he would take questions eagerly, to help educate the skeptics, to fulfill his mission to save the world. But he won't. He knows he's wrong, doesn't care.

    And Briffa's trees... "gotta make medieval warm period disappear"... yeah, or modern temperatures don't look all that hot, right? Gotta paste on data from different sources on a contiguous chart and NOT TELL ANYONE that the source of the data changed at a certain time point... cuz when we do that, it's most convincing.. and that one chart, the "hockey stick chart" is still being used today in all the same alarmist literature even though it's been utterly discredited for several years now.

    Make no mistake, the UN's group of 'scientists' were on a mission, and doubtless there was some UN approval, if not outright encouragement, for that mission-- to use science to convince the world that massive government structures and massive taxes to redistribute world wealth and punish industry were NECESSARY, had to be done, for the 'GOOD OF THE PLANET'. Punishing industry and redistributing wealth just happen to be the primary agents of change for communist regimes over the past hundred years or so. Coincidence I'm sure.... not.

    On one side, the American idea of individual liberty and free markets. On the other side, Maoism/Leninism/Marxism/Statism/Fascism/Socialism/Communism/Leftism.

    And now environmentalism, which is one of them.

    If it were up to me, I'd take a couple of bit Cat dozers and scrape that dammn UN building off the island and into the Atlantic, and tell them to build their own.. SOMEWHERE ELSE.
    OMG...Larry would be so proud of you

    I just had a thought. Big Oil and Utilities control one of the largest and richest lobbyist sectors in the USA and the World. Republicans receive 80% of their lobby payouts. Is it any surprise that they are trying to disprove global warming...Dave how do you feel about lobbiests? I am not a fan.
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  41. #41
    [QUOTE=The Purist]
    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    I am a big fan of your dry humor and one liners...Have you ever noticed that Dentists and Computer Service Techs usually have the driest senses of humor. Anyway, I think hear opportunity knocking...someone resurrected the Maxfli Fire Thread.
    It's nice to know someone appreciates my genius on this board. Glad you have a good sense of humor and can take a joke as well as dish them out.
    I spent my 20s in Richmond. '96 and '99 had some hellacious snow. Were you in VA for those?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    OMG...Larry would be so proud of you

    I just had a thought. Big Oil and Utilities control one of the largest and richest lobbyist sectors in the USA and the World. Republicans receive 80% of their lobby payouts. Is it any surprise that they are trying to disprove global warming...Dave how do you feel about lobbiests? I am not a fan.
    Global warming fans have alot in common with the religious right in this county. Fanatics do not have the ability to have an open mind.
    Most science theories are usually proven wrong, or evolve. Global warming has evolved into climate change because the earth has cooled recently. I am being generous in giving global warming the theory status because it is now coming out that the so called climate experts behind this are being showed to be liars, coverup artists and cheats.
    The UN climate group is a political group just like the Reepublicans and Democrats in US.
    As for Big Oil I think alot of there money is coming in from transporting global experts and Democrats to golbal conference held around the world.
    Global warming is dying a slow agonizing death. Hurry up and die.
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  43. #43
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    [QUOTE=Home-slicer]
    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist

    It's nice to know someone appreciates my genius on this board. Glad you have a good sense of humor and can take a joke as well as dish them out.
    I spent my 20s in Richmond. '96 and '99 had some hellacious snow. Were you in VA for those?
    In '99 you could probably find me starting off the night at Trade Marks, then popping over to Goodfellas, and if I felt like getting my dance on ...finishing the night up at Arnolds.

    Had some decent snows, but nothing like this year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    OMG...Larry would be so proud of you

    I just had a thought. Big Oil and Utilities control one of the largest and richest lobbyist sectors in the USA and the World. Republicans receive 80% of their lobby payouts. Is it any surprise that they are trying to disprove global warming...Dave how do you feel about lobbiests? I am not a fan.
    It isn't the oil companies that are disproving global warming. Read the papers, amigo. The scientists who have written the alarmist reports about global warming are falling apart admitting that they have not told the truth. Jones, the head of the unit in Britain, this week admitted there's been no statistical warming for fifteen years and that he "lost" the data that his charts are based on. That's a polite way of saying he's deliberately messed the raw data up so many times, trying to get it to say what he wants it to, that he's now embarrassed and ashamed for any real scientists to look at it. There is no raw data for other scientists to use to prove or disprove the East Anglia Climate Research Unit's theories. There will never be a "peer review" of this process. It's hopelessly tampered from the beginning, by they guys who were responsible for the outcome.... because they had an outcome in mind from the start. That is not science, it's just politics. The wheels are off. Al Gore is in the witness protection program. Just try to find him for a quote now. Invisible.

    Plus, the Russians are now complaining that most of their genuinely cold regions' data have been deliberately left out of those reports, and that the average temp in the reports is over a half degree higher because of that deliberate omission. The number of thermometer stations now being used is only a FOURTH of the number we had back in the 1970s.. and most of the ones that have been dropped are rural and higher altitude, leaving city concrete and heater exhaust blasted 'thermometers' to represent a rise in temps across all the world... of COURSE it is a rise, they're slowly being surrounded by hotter environments as the cities grow and the construction and machines hem them in. But a cold blast across Siberia goes unreported as data, even though it contributes far more to the average than three thermometers in parking lots in a midsize city do. No thermometers being recorded in Siberia, though, for thousands of miles in any direction. Is Siberia no longer a part of the 'globe'? Apparently these scientists decided it is not.

    In the end, as you perceive in your lobbying comment, the most important thing for us is votes in Congress. But here's the thing about lobbying in the O admin.

    Government has grown by 14% since O took office. That is thousands and thousands more of the millions who currently work in government, and now the union of govt workers is officially 51% of union members nationwide.

    In other words, while normal people are losing jobs by the millions, government is growing massive and the workforce of govt votes Democrat to keep their jobs, which now average almost twice the salary of the average in the private sector, with twice the benefits as well, including giant pensions. Meanwhile the man who visits the WH most often for planning sessions is ANdy Stern, president of the service workers international union. Obama swore fealty to them at the beginning of his campaign in 2007, telling them he came of age in politics working for the benefit of the SEIU and would get their input on all critical policy decisions. It's on YouTube.

    ExxonMobil can't HOPE to match the influence, financial and otherwise, of the unions of this country. SEIU alone donated $60 million to Obama's campaign.

    The days of "largest richest lobbying sector" big oil are long gone. When the politicians in power are against you, lobbying only causes problems for the congressmen you buy. Besides, ExxonMobil can't outlobby the unions when the President himself is ideologically committed to the "workers of the world unite" guy, Andy Stern of the SEIU.

    And if you think union workers care about the success of their businesses, think again. They're working to get government health care and other benefits so they don't have to rely on the health of the businesses which hire them. They've already contributed to the sickness of those businesses by getting pay/benefits packages which the economy can't support, through threats of strikes and so forth. Unions across the country HAVE to get govt. health care, because their businesses are already failing and therefore not able to pay the huge retirements/health packages they were beaten out of at the negotiating table. If govt comes to the rescue, the business can just fail and the unions won't lose their goodies. Or the business can be 'rescued', as GM and Chrysler were, which means subsidized for the foreseeable future, which means benefit packages for UAW workers are safe. Ford is making money right now, and Chrysler and GM (government motors) are hemorrhaging billions of taxpayer dollars still. No prob, we'll still get what we need, say the unions. Toyota is in the crosshairs of Obama, no coincidence that all these recall notices and 'problem reports' are headline news. Toyota committed the offense of outselling everyone, for which they will be punished, which will cost plenty of good paying US based jobs, but if they're not on the O team, well who cares about that. (Toyota was the top selling car, and two of the top five, during the Cash for Clunkers program.. an offense worthy of excommunication in the view of the Religious Left, since Government Motors was intended to be the primary beneficiary of the taxpayer cash infusion into the car biz)

    Government Motors will rise again, no matter what O has to do to achieve it, because the UAW needs those benefits.

    My last question is, where will all this taxpayer money come from? It appears already that Obama just prints the money he needs, which in the end will devalue everyone's money.

    Including the evil Exxon's evil big oil lobbying money. :-))

    I may or may not sound "like Larry", but by Gawd I know my material, Monsieur la Gauche.... :-)) and yes, I'm RIGHT.

    The biggest threat to economic freedom in this country today is UNIONS, the left-wing management of them and their unholy alliance with O to 'fundamentally transform America' into some kind of statist eastern European type country, the kind that failed forty years ago but Obama didn't notice. Unions have more power and influence than any 'rich oil lobby', then or now. It's the ideology, stupid. :-)))
    Last edited by daveperkins; 02-16-2010 at 06:30 AM.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by groundhogday
    Global warming fans have alot in common with the religious right in this county. Fanatics do not have the ability to have an open mind.
    Most science theories are usually proven wrong, or evolve. Global warming has evolved into climate change because the earth has cooled recently. I am being generous in giving global warming the theory status because it is now coming out that the so called climate experts behind this are being showed to be liars, coverup artists and cheats.
    The UN climate group is a political group just like the Reepublicans and Democrats in US.
    As for Big Oil I think alot of there money is coming in from transporting global experts and Democrats to golbal conference held around the world.
    Global warming is dying a slow agonizing death. Hurry up and die.
    GHD
    Difference between warmies and religious right? Religious right not trying to seize control of world economy and destroy free markets and tax the producers 'til they wish they were dead.. religious right not trying to enslave the world to its ideology, 'christian evangelism' is quaint and trite and harmless compared to what warmies have been trying to inflict on the world for decades.. the rise of warmingism perfectly coincides, historically, with the fall of the Soviet Union.. environmentalism and global warming are truly the new home of displaced communists who still want the State in charge of everything... now it's for the 'good of the planet' instead of 'for the good of the state' but it is the exact same program, just decorated in green instead of red.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    I like golf.
    I like shiney things.

    I was able to finally get out and play yesterday. Haven't played 18 in a month and boy does it show! My local goat track is still REALLY wet but the weather was great. Blue sky and 70 degrees. Aaah back to cargo shorts!
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    Another day my clients have shut down their offices because of weather. This storm has gone beyond annoyance and is now costing me cash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Difference between warmies and religious right? Religious right not trying to seize control of world economy and destroy free markets and tax the producers 'til they wish they were dead.. religious right not trying to enslave the world to its ideology, 'christian evangelism' is quaint and trite and harmless compared to what warmies have been trying to inflict on the world for decades.. the rise of warmingism perfectly coincides, historically, with the fall of the Soviet Union.. environmentalism and global warming are truly the new home of displaced communists who still want the State in charge of everything... now it's for the 'good of the planet' instead of 'for the good of the state' but it is the exact same program, just decorated in green instead of red.
    Nice new word inventions, Dave, very nice . . . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    Nice new word inventions, Dave, very nice . . . . . .
    I was quite pleased with my wordingisms.. thanks for noticing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    And class.. This is what psychologists call "projection."
    and THIS is what analysts call "insight"..
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    I would bet that both of you are wrong and right at the same time. I'm sure man has influenced the climate but to the extent that the scientist claim? I doubt it. I'm pretty sure most unions are crap and evil but on the flip side I know people that are currently making health decisions about buying or not buying medications because of costs and limited financial resources. These are good hard working people. This is crazy. One is a diabetic and without proper care he will cost us much more if, more like when, he has a major health issue. Our health system is broken. We need to fix it but we won't because of partisan politics. Sad.

    So it would be great if things were black and white like both of you argue but it's not the case. Our political environment in the US is so polarized that good, logic, and proper governing is given a back seat to partisan politics. Either side would do what ever possible to screw each other over making good laws. This is not unique to the dems the GOP did exactly the same thing when they were in power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    I would bet that both of you are wrong and right at the same time. I'm sure man has influenced the climate but to the extent that the scientist claim? I doubt it. I'm pretty sure most unions are crap and evil but on the flip side I know people that are currently making health decisions about buying or not buying medications because of costs and limited financial resources. These are good hard working people. This is crazy. One is a diabetic and without proper care he will cost us much more if, more like when, he has a major health issue. Our health system is broken. We need to fix it but we won't because of partisan politics. Sad.

    So it would be great if things were black and white like both of you argue but it's not the case. Our political environment in the US is so polarized that good, logic, and proper governing is given a back seat to partisan politics. Either side would do what ever possible to screw each other over making good laws. This is not unique to the dems the GOP did exactly the same thing when they were in power.
    I lost my brother to prostate cancer 2 years ago. He didn't have insurance and consequently didn't go to the doctor when his symptoms surfaced. Yes, the system sucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    I would bet that both of you are wrong and right at the same time. I'm sure man has influenced the climate but to the extent that the scientist claim? I doubt it. I'm pretty sure most unions are crap and evil but on the flip side I know people that are currently making health decisions about buying or not buying medications because of costs and limited financial resources. These are good hard working people. This is crazy. One is a diabetic and without proper care he will cost us much more if, more like when, he has a major health issue. Our health system is broken. We need to fix it but we won't because of partisan politics. Sad.

    So it would be great if things were black and white like both of you argue but it's not the case. Our political environment in the US is so polarized that good, logic, and proper governing is given a back seat to partisan politics. Either side would do what ever possible to screw each other over making good laws. This is not unique to the dems the GOP did exactly the same thing when they were in power.
    I thought I was the middle. I was only saying that I thought humans produced a lot of CO2, and that as CO2 concentrations increase the atmosphere traps more heat. I don't buy into outlandish predictions of world destruction from global warming. Even if the earth is cooling over the last 15years (Dave's report)...its not because CO2 levels are decreasing.
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    My bad then but you get my point....

    Like I've posted before there are many good reasons to limit fossil fuel consumption. Preservation of clean water would be high on my list. One that I would think would be high on the GOP's list is the freedom from Middle East oil. That one never seems to get traction with the GOP. I guess security is only achieved through military action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    I thought I was the middle. I was only saying that I thought humans produced a lot of CO2, and that as CO2 concentrations increase the atmosphere traps more heat. I don't buy into outlandish predictions of world destruction from global warming. Even if the earth is cooling over the last 15years (Dave's report)...its not because CO2 levels are decreasing.
    Sure, the Nazis also thought they were in the middle. Go back to Russia, comrade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Difference between warmies and religious right? Religious right not trying to seize control of world economy and destroy free markets and tax the producers 'til they wish they were dead.. religious right not trying to enslave the world to its ideology, 'christian evangelism' is quaint and trite and harmless compared to what warmies have been trying to inflict on the world for decades.. the rise of warmingism perfectly coincides, historically, with the fall of the Soviet Union.. environmentalism and global warming are truly the new home of displaced communists who still want the State in charge of everything... now it's for the 'good of the planet' instead of 'for the good of the state' but it is the exact same program, just decorated in green instead of red.
    Good point Dave I take it back, Global Warning nuts are more akin to communists of the 1930's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    My bad then but you get my point....

    Like I've posted before there are many good reasons to limit fossil fuel consumption. Preservation of clean water would be high on my list. One that I would think would be high on the GOP's list is the freedom from Middle East oil. That one never seems to get traction with the GOP. I guess security is only achieved through military action.
    After spending the better part of a week in Houston, which calls itself the energy capital of the world, it all makes sense to me. Seemed as though the majority of the people I met were involved in some way with the Oil Industry.

    It's always about the money. Freedom, religion, avoidance of human sacrifice, they come next and are always available to support the prime objective. I'm not being critical, it's simply human nature in action.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    . Even if the earth is cooling over the last 15years (Dave's report)...its not because CO2 levels are decreasing.
    No, it's not.

    It's because CO2 levels are IRRELEVANT. CO2, as I've said, is a lagging indicator by almost a thousand years, a proof of temperature increase, NOT a cause of it. :-)

    Mankind may well produce "a lot" of CO2, but CO2 is a tiny fraction of greenhouse gases, and manmade CO2 is a tiny fraction of THAT.

    Can't be in 'the middle' with muddled facts. ;-)
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    Global Warming hasn't had much effect on my life so I'm not really concerned. In fact, it seems like global warming is a good thing for golfers. Hey, one or two degrees warmer can make a 5 to 6 yard difference in your drives and enable you to take your sweater off one hole earlier than before. I'm tired of these people that look at everything in a negative fashion. I'm a "glass is half full" kind of guy and I welcome global warming with open arms. It's probably not going to be a big deal for another 100 years so who cares?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    After spending the better part of a week in Houston, which calls itself the energy capital of the world, it all makes sense to me. Seemed as though the majority of the people I met were involved in some way with the Oil Industry.

    It's always about the money. Freedom, religion, avoidance of human sacrifice, they come next and are always available to support the prime objective. I'm not being critical, it's simply human nature in action.
    Six million people in that town and you can only find oil people? I lived there for years and the only people I met were RADIO people. ANd golf people. :-))

    I'd modify your claim of 'its only about the money'. When people are free, it's about the money. And since that is a predictable force, America was designed to work with it instead of against it like Marxism.

    But people on the left, Marxists, Maoists, socialists, they don't so much want to get rich themselves, although it always seems they do end up rich once they're in charge.. but their problem is, they are so wedded mentally and emotionally to their ideology, they want to tell everyone ELSE how much $$ they can have and what they must do with it. "It's not fair that one person has more than another!" is such a dangerous thought, but that's the primary motive behind leftist passion... making everything fair. I am six feet four inches tall, and some days I suspect the left would chop off a part of my legs and give them to a short person if lefties ever get hold of full, real authority and power. It's not fair that I'm so tall and other people aren't. That spoof is no sillier than a LOT of lefty ideas.

    They're not so much greedy as they are BUSYBODIES, who like to use the force of the state to enforce their meddling.

    And after the left meddles sufficiently in the affairs of private citizens, the end result is always a loss of the productive impulse that naturally expresses itself when there's an opportunity to make something of yourself. Under leftism, government winds up in control of all resources one way or another, and the net result is discouragement of the productive impulse and a concomitant loss of national wealth that leaves poverty more widespread and kills the future. You can 'spread the wealth around' as Obama wants to do by seizing it this year and sending out checks, but what about next year's wealth? Somebody has to produce it, create it, innovate it, make it. Government produces NOTHING. And the more it takes from those who do, the less they feel like doing it.

    In Stalin's Russia, 20 million people died for the crime of being middle class, having the modest means and the inclination to oppose the One politically. They were starved, exiled, outright murdered, their property seized as belonging to 'the people', and then a lot of OTHER people starved because the farms were no longer productive. Mugabe is learning that lesson now in Zimbabwe, or actually he's NOT learning it, but people are starving anyway. Leftism, statism, fascism, socialism, communism, always result in impoverishment of the public, by strangling the productive impulse and crushing creativity in zombielands of state controlled thought. I read a book about Shevardnaze and Gorbachev and the 'glasnost' era with Bush 41.. they were flying into Washington for the first time, and Gorbachev says "what are all those blue spots?" Shevardnaze the Georgian foreign minister of the USSR says to Gorby "they're swimming pools".. Gorby, who knows only State-sponsored natatoriums for Soviet olympic competitors -- and poverty-stricken kids looking through the windows of the natatoriums dying for one swim, in their WHOLE LIVES -- is stunned into silence by simple American prosperity. A country where the middle, and even lower middle, class can afford swimming pools. No amount of state sponsored wealth confiscation and redistribution can bring about that simple prosperity.

    It is no credit to one's compassion to choose "the middle" between good and evil. Compromise is a fine art, and I recognize I'm not good at it, but those who are good at compromise sometimes forget it is not always appropriate. I'm badly remembering an old quote, to wit:

    "Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue, and extremism in defence of liberty is no vice." That was either Caesar's adversary Cicero from ancient Rome, or Barry Goldwater, or both.

    I know many lefties, and some have the finest of consciences and wishes for the good of humanity. I have to admire that level of concern in a person, and I do. But they refuse to learn from history and see what ALWAYS happens when the State becomes more important than the citizen, the collective more than the individual.

    "resistance is futile. Assimilate." thus saith the Borg. ;-)

    Not me. Somebody else can have my share of the collective. a third of what a person earns is ENOUGH for the collective to seize.

    I was on a golf course a few years back and was paired with a Swedish gentleman who played well. We talked, and by the back nine we'd opened up. I asked him why he was in Texas and he immediately told me that Sweden taxed his income at about 65%. He said he didn't mind paying his fair share, but he thought that was just too much, and thought his government wasted a lot of money. He was morally offended by that, as well as stung by the taking of his earnings. If government is to take the moral high ground and claim the right to seize as much of one's income as is needed to 'do good', he said, they'd better live up to their own declarations of goodness. And they don't. Corruption, waste, fraud, abuse, personal agendas, retributive behavior, he described all that in Sweden, and I could think of an American example of everything he mentioned.

    When we parted, I told him he belonged here, and he agreed with a big smile.

    I was glad to get a quick, solid lesson from a Swede on why America became the most wealthy, most fair, least poverty-stricken country in the history of human beings. It's because of respect for individuals, for property rights, for the creative and productive among us. We aren't all that way, but we're all better off because some of us are. If we snuff out that individual creativity and determination by forcing a template of state thought and behavior on us all in search of something impossible to achieve, namely FAIRNESS, we'll all suffer for it.
    Last edited by daveperkins; 02-16-2010 at 02:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by groundhogday
    Good point Dave I take it back, Global Warning nuts are more akin to communists of the 1930's.

    GHD
    And in the case of very elderly warmists, they ARE the communists of the 1930s.

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    Dave,

    I don't know about the least poverty stricken line for the US. You guys have a massive underclass of working poor over there, and don't have as generous a welfare system as other western countries, according to media reports we get here about your country. The LA riots was a good example of how many people live in poverty in the US.
    Last edited by Not a hacker; 02-16-2010 at 07:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Six million people in that town and you can only find oil people? I lived there for years and the only people I met were RADIO people. ANd golf people. :-))

    I'd modify your claim of 'its only about the money'. When people are free, it's about the money. And since that is a predictable force, America was designed to work with it instead of against it like Marxism.

    But people on the left, Marxists, Maoists, socialists, they don't so much want to get rich themselves, although it always seems they do end up rich once they're in charge.. but their problem is, they are so wedded mentally and emotionally to their ideology, they want to tell everyone ELSE how much $$ they can have and what they must do with it. "It's not fair that one person has more than another!" is such a dangerous thought, but that's the primary motive behind leftist passion... making everything fair. I am six feet four inches tall, and some days I suspect the left would chop off a part of my legs and give them to a short person if lefties ever get hold of full, real authority and power. It's not fair that I'm so tall and other people aren't. That spoof is no sillier than a LOT of lefty ideas.

    They're not so much greedy as they are BUSYBODIES, who like to use the force of the state to enforce their meddling.

    And after the left meddles sufficiently in the affairs of private citizens, the end result is always a loss of the productive impulse that naturally expresses itself when there's an opportunity to make something of yourself. Under leftism, government winds up in control of all resources one way or another, and the net result is discouragement of the productive impulse and a concomitant loss of national wealth that leaves poverty more widespread and kills the future. You can 'spread the wealth around' as Obama wants to do by seizing it this year and sending out checks, but what about next year's wealth? Somebody has to produce it, create it, innovate it, make it. Government produces NOTHING. And the more it takes from those who do, the less they feel like doing it.

    In Stalin's Russia, 20 million people died for the crime of being middle class, having the modest means and the inclination to oppose the One politically. They were starved, exiled, outright murdered, their property seized as belonging to 'the people', and then a lot of OTHER people starved because the farms were no longer productive. Mugabe is learning that lesson now in Zimbabwe, or actually he's NOT learning it, but people are starving anyway. Leftism, statism, fascism, socialism, communism, always result in impoverishment of the public, by strangling the productive impulse and crushing creativity in zombielands of state controlled thought. I read a book about Shevardnaze and Gorbachev and the 'glasnost' era with Bush 41.. they were flying into Washington for the first time, and Gorbachev says "what are all those blue spots?" Shevardnaze the Georgian foreign minister of the USSR says to Gorby "they're swimming pools".. Gorby, who knows only State-sponsored natatoriums for Soviet olympic competitors -- and poverty-stricken kids looking through the windows of the natatoriums dying for one swim, in their WHOLE LIVES -- is stunned into silence by simple American prosperity. A country where the middle, and even lower middle, class can afford swimming pools. No amount of state sponsored wealth confiscation and redistribution can bring about that simple prosperity.

    It is no credit to one's compassion to choose "the middle" between good and evil. Compromise is a fine art, and I recognize I'm not good at it, but those who are good at compromise sometimes forget it is not always appropriate. I'm badly remembering an old quote, to wit:

    "Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue, and extremism in defence of liberty is no vice." That was either Caesar's adversary Cicero from ancient Rome, or Barry Goldwater, or both.

    I know many lefties, and some have the finest of consciences and wishes for the good of humanity. I have to admire that level of concern in a person, and I do. But they refuse to learn from history and see what ALWAYS happens when the State becomes more important than the citizen, the collective more than the individual.

    "resistance is futile. Assimilate." thus saith the Borg. ;-)

    Not me. Somebody else can have my share of the collective. a third of what a person earns is ENOUGH for the collective to seize.

    I was on a golf course a few years back and was paired with a Swedish gentleman who played well. We talked, and by the back nine we'd opened up. I asked him why he was in Texas and he immediately told me that Sweden taxed his income at about 65%. He said he didn't mind paying his fair share, but he thought that was just too much, and thought his government wasted a lot of money. He was morally offended by that, as well as stung by the taking of his earnings. If government is to take the moral high ground and claim the right to seize as much of one's income as is needed to 'do good', he said, they'd better live up to their own declarations of goodness. And they don't. Corruption, waste, fraud, abuse, personal agendas, retributive behavior, he described all that in Sweden, and I could think of an American example of everything he mentioned.

    When we parted, I told him he belonged here, and he agreed with a big smile.

    I was glad to get a quick, solid lesson from a Swede on why America became the most wealthy, most fair, least poverty-stricken country in the history of human beings. It's because of respect for individuals, for property rights, for the creative and productive among us. We aren't all that way, but we're all better off because some of us are. If we snuff out that individual creativity and determination by forcing a template of state thought and behavior on us all in search of something impossible to achieve, namely FAIRNESS, we'll all suffer for it.
    Whoa! Did your radio station switch formats....I always figured you for an FM guy. I don't know what it is about getting older, but people seem to run from the middle to one extreme or the other.(RIP Nifty).

    Would a legit third party be good for the country, or would it lead to an even more annoying level of partisan politics?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    After spending the better part of a week in Houston, which calls itself the energy capital of the world, it all makes sense to me. Seemed as though the majority of the people I met were involved in some way with the Oil Industry.

    It's always about the money. Freedom, religion, avoidance of human sacrifice, they come next and are always available to support the prime objective. I'm not being critical, it's simply human nature in action.
    It's true, it is not the cultural epicenter that Oklahoma is, but they try, just try to be patient with them . . . . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    Whoa! Did your radio station switch formats....I always figured you for an FM guy. I don't know what it is about getting older, but people seem to run from the middle to one extreme or the other.(RIP Nifty).

    Would a legit third party be good for the country, or would it lead to an even more annoying level of partisan politics?
    Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue; extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.

    What part of that don't you get, amigo? :-)) It may seem like people sound 'reasonable' when they constantly search for some halfway point from which they can accuse both sides of extremism, but the question isn't about reasonableness. It's about right and wrong, and how much we care about doing right and avoiding wrong. I've seen enough of this world to know that leftism, as policy and in its results, is a dreadful affliction on the people and always goes in the direction of pressing down on them, ruining their love of life, harming them economically, even spiritually. It makes droids and zombies of people who were bright, capable, with possibilities. Read your history. It's all there.

    I sometimes have trouble choosing which team I want to support in a football game, but I have no trouble choosing between the surgeon and the brain tumor, if you know what I mean. When history, evidence and sanity point to a course of action inevitably bringing disaster, sadness and misery, one does oneself no favors by trying to find the middle ground between doing it and not doing it. The Blairite 'third way' is in reality just a slightly slower way of doing the thing that secures all the misery, as we can see in the budget-busted Britain of the post Blair era. Broon is just a harder left guy than Blair, but Broon was strapped by the Blair era budget deficits, which he would have likely run up just as fast as Blair did with his third way. Fiscal irresponsibility, FIDUCIARY irresponsibility with the money that is seized from taxpayers and for which they deserve better results and more respect, and in the end economic crisis after crisis... devaluation... default... failure to keep promises made in bad judgment... same old lefty tale of overextended govt..

    I lived in Europe for several years, and multiple parties clog up the system. You end up with nobody getting a majority, runoff elections, parties making deals with other parties on each others' overemphasized agenda items in order to secure voting cooperation, and a government is formed that never has a chance to execute what it believes are plans to improve the country because it spends all its time doing things to pay off its coalition parties for their participation. Israel suffers from this problem, as they have been essentially leftist in government from the beginning, with defense as the only right wing impulse to make it through the knesset.

    The euro way of multiple parties just secures the hold that the left has on the system. A party with an agenda of less taxes, smaller government and less restrictions on the people is not going to find many willing coalition parties in a world where most of them have a real set of changes they want to impose on everyone, and few are willing to give up govt. power before they even get it. It's about THE POWER. A true conservative does not WANT power. He simply wants a chance to put things right. Washington REFUSED THE CROWN, when it was offered to him by frightened fellows in early America. They went with what they knew, monarchy, and judged him a good enough man to trust. But he did not want the temptation of power, which showed he WAS a good enough man.

    Conservative government does not want power, it wants to devolve power back where it belongs in a federal republic, to the states. Sadly, as man is a flawed being with a taste for power, it's hard to find a lot of partners in politics who are willing to go in with the idea of reducing their own power.

    But the public is now on the edge of revolt, demanding precisely this.

    A good start. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Dave,

    I don't know about the least poverty stricken line for the US. You guys have a massive underclass of working poor over there, and don't have as generous a welfare system as other western countries, according to media reports we get here about your country. The LA riots was a good example of how many people live in poverty in the US.
    "according to media reports" I never put much faith in those, as media have proven worldwide to be fairly hardcore leftists who pretend to care about only the facts but who constantly agitate in favor of the left. I read French media daily online as well as british and all the American stuff. It's all the same claptrap. And what they fail to tell you is as significant as the things they tell you over and over. The New York Times here is an outright affiliate of the Democrat party, as any fair reading over the past twenty years will reveal. Der Speigel, the Mirror in Germany, is COMICALLY leftist in a really unthinking way.

    But to your point-- Our 'massive underclass' of working poor is all in the details. Most of the 'poor' who actually work have ten times as much money as really poor people in other countries. They have cars, tv sets, air conditioners, not exactly the kind of things poor people have in zimbabwe or siberia or ethiopia. Seriously, a survey recently showed the average American poor person has a car and two television sets. How is that poor? There was much fuss made during the campaign about a homeless guy meeting Michelle Obama in some food kitchen and having his picture taken with her-- ON HIS MOBILE PHONE. How does a guy who lives ON THE STREET afford a MOBILE PHONE WITH CAMERA? More on that shortly--

    And one must also distinguish in other ways.. the poverty line in America is set very very high, income wise, so that Democrat politicians can appeal to more voters to give them other people's money. "qualifying" for government aid is too easy, and Democrats make it easy on purpose to buy votes with taxpayer money. This means a LOT of people who don't need government assistance get it anyway and are happy to do so.

    Also, the inner city ghetto type poor are a creation of Democrat policy regarding welfare. They give them just enough to survive, then they give them MORE if the 'man of the house' isn't present, then they give them still more for each of their children, thus encouraging them to have more and more children and to kick out any man who might be personally responsible for them.... this gives predictable results in social destruction, which are then lamented as proof of how cruel and unfair this country is, and Democrats are the lamenters who then use the emotions ginned up to raise taxes even more, so they can put even more people on welfare, with all the social destruction and generational collapse this now entails.

    Before the 1960s, even with racism still public and normal in parts of the country, black people had a higher percentage of successful marriages and children with fathers than white people did. Democrats, welfare, the Great Society, ended all that and put them in an addictive cycle of dependency on govt. This is one of the clear, obvious proofs to me that govt. being in charge of who gets what is a TERRIBLE idea, because politicians use that power to simply use one person's money to purchase the vote of another person, a transaction in which the only true beneficiary is the politician himself.

    Black people now are in their fourth generation of young men raised without fathers and without jobs, living on the meager sustenance given them by the gracious and generous federal govt., with a whole multigenerational inner city NOT KNOWING how to work, how to make it, how to encourage themselves and others to accomplish things, how to even BE a man (no father, no example), how to feel valuable or purposeful about ANYTHING.

    And this is not to mention the incredible, widespread, rampant abuse of the welfare system. One of my best friends is a black guy who grew up poor and happened by chance to end up in military school for high school... learned self discipline, achievement, spend time in the library and learned REAL history instead of what's taught in schools, and came away from that experience a self-reliant politically conservative guy. He tells me stories that curl what little hair I have left, about people receiving six or ten checks every month, huge fraud, false identities, massive amounts of cash spent on hubcap spinners and boomer stereos for the car, gold teeth and 'grills' (gold necklaces really big and gaudy), NBA sneakers, NFL jerseys, giant flat screen TVs and satellite dishes in their hovels, I mean the worst possible fraud and abuse of welfare for the poor.. there is a perverse pride, he says, in the black community over gaming the system, 'workin' it', in which people congratulate each other for stickin' it to whitey, taking his money and blowing it on stuff... and of course with all that underground unreported extra cash, there is the rampant drug abuse and the dealer/criminal culture that goes with it.. really poor people can't keep a drug dealer business in money, but our American 'poor' people funnel them the cash like there's no tomorrow.

    The program, as a whole, is NOTHING LIKE PEOPLE THINK IT IS. And America's "poor" are nowhere NEAR as poor as they like people to think they are.

    But the LA riots were not about poverty at all. I assume you mean Watts in 1965, which was the kind of racial flare-up that Martin Luther King specifically campaigned against, but which some less moral and more leftwing activists did anyway... but you might mean the early 1990's riots, which were ginned up by activists and whose most ardent participants were street criminals in search of a score. Those riots were started by a police video, not by poverty. Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" He was on crack and escaping police by driving in a manner designed to put as many people at risk as possible. When they finally caught him, he was drug-fueled and physically dominating several of them until they finally lost their tempers and started kicking and beating him on the ground.. somebody got that on video and suddenly the black community had a reason to break into all the stores, steal TVs and pull white guys outta their cars and hit them with bricks. That's what I do when I sense injustice, I steal things and attack innocent bystanders. Yep.

    I am told by older black people that the black family was solid, black worth ethic was strong, black culture was essentially conservative, up until welfare started under LBJ. The deliberate cutting out of the father from the welfare home was a ghastly cultural blow to them. To this day, almost fifty years later, the government practice is still to tell young women their checks will be reduced if a man lives in their home (presumably because the man can support them or help to do that), and that their checks will be increased if they have more children.

    What you subsidize, you get more of. What you tax, you get less of.

    It is natural law of economics.

    I am very proud of this country in its progress over racism these past five decades. Civil Rights were important and overdue as law. Today racism is the least prevalent and least influential it's ever been. I have black friends married to white people, and nobody I know seems to be the least inclined to react to that in any way. There will always be a nutty fringe, but the longer I live, the less trouble they stir up, because people really are getting to the point where nobody cares what color you are.

    But the great society program, the one that started welfare, was NOT the civil rights act. Welfare was not written up as a response to black needs, but as a leftist knee jerk 'spread the wealth' impulse like Obama, like the greenies who want world taxing power to fight the phantom of global warming... and like Stalin, Mao and a dozen others. It was FDR who first publicly proposed a 'second bill of rights', saying people have a right to a good paying job, a home, and time off to spend with family for dignity's sake. All very lovely to think about, but all equivalent to putting your hand in your neighbor's wallet and saying "pardon me, I have a right to this" while you empty it. Our first bill of rights set out the limits of what government could do to you as a citizen. It ensured freedom. FDR's idea, though, was what government should do FOR you, which necessarily moves into the realm of deciding what's fair, who gets what, seizing and redistributing wealth on social fairness grounds, punishing the achievers and reducing their desire to achieve by making higher achievement subject to higher tax penalties, and in the end reducing the wealth production of a nation and lowering everyone's lifestyle, including the 'poor' who now have less government revenue to be passed out to a greater number of people.

    And because the Civil Rights Act caused black people to move en masse from the Repub party to the Dem party (they had been repubs for a hundred years before that, because Lincoln was repub and because the KKK, Democrat Senator Robert Byrd's pride and joy, was a Democrat party organization), the Dems decided to use welfare to secure the black vote. They never stopped.

    Black people now suffer a perverse cultural tendency to mock achievement among themselves, to treat badly anyone who dares to get good grades in school, tries to 'talk white', or tries to make something of himself. Someone like that is derided for 'thinkin' he's better than us'. So sad, because now more than ever the opportunity is there for anyone in that community who, like my friend Kevin, wants to achieve something, make a future for himself and his kids. Welfare has become a set of blinders that keeps the greatness of America from coming into the view of far too many people. A grim existence is a terrlble thing, as anyone who lived under Stalin knew.

    No wonder 'hope and change' rang so loudly to these people. They saw Obama as the man who would break up this circular repression of black people that is now official leftist government policy, because as a black man he'd get it. Sadly, he's done nothing for them, having revealed he is utterly committed to dull, ordinary, failed leftist ideology, and isn't interested in doing anything positive for black people. He's a Marxist who disdains Dr. King for being a preacher.

    So there is great disappointment across America at Obama. The hard left is angry that he isn't more courageous about his leftism, but they are only about 20% of us. Black people are angry that he seems not to care about them at all, even though his campaign mobilized them like never before. There are youtube videos of black people saying things like "now I won't have to worry about my mortgage or putting gas in my car, Obama's president now"... they seemed to think his election meant they would suddenly somehow get more money... they were misled and abused by him. And the rest of us, the vast majority of America, are stunned and outraged that he has become the implementer of Stalinism, the appointer of friends of Mao and communists to his cabinet and to positions of influence, the great disdainer of the great American traditions of freedom and opportunity. Nobody has benefited from his work, except perhaps the UAW and unions.

    trade unions like the SEIU, the Service Employees International Union, whose president visits the white house almost every week and who recently and happily repeated "workers of the world, unite" on a TV show, embracing it as HIS slogan in the worldwide campaign to increase SEIU membership. "It's not just a slogan, it's the future" he said.. it's also the past. Marx coined the term, and not Groucho.

    OUr poor are better off than most other poor, except perhaps in small countries who have some advantage, like the oil revenues of Norway. Welfare programs are unsustainable in the long run anywhere, though, unless a real genuine effort is made to end corruption, to cull out people who can and should take care of themselves, and preserve the limited available charitable funds for those genuinely in need of it.

    In this country, I'm confident that nine out of ten people on welfare, and this includes white people (they are the vast majority of recipients after all), could take care of themselves if they chose to do it. When the choice is available to sit and smoke on the porch instead of working, it takes some personal conviction to give that one a pass and get up and go to work. It is entirely too tempting to let yourself slide into inactivity and dependence. It is a human failing, addressed by the American idea of personal responsibility but ignored by those who try to seem 'caring and generous' by giving money away. The cynical, the lazy, the easily tempted and corrupted, they start showing up in droves to get the free lunch, and then years later they wonder why there is less work being done, less business to tax, less revenue to government to keep paying all these social giveaway costs. The American govt is down over 20%, year on year, in tax revenue, even while Obamao quintuples the annual deficit in spending. He is insane. We cannot long endure this economic loony. But that's leftism for you.

    The choice to go on welfare should thus be less available than it is, out of respect to taxpayers, and out of a true desire that people achieve the most they can rather than be tempted to sit on their duffs and tell themselves the world is unfair. For too many, including me, that sounds like a tempting offer. I'm a lazy whiner at heart. and NOBODY should encourage me. :-)

    /end poverty rant
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    Big Dave 2012. I'd offer to be your running mate, but I would probably be a "liability" to the campaign. I've got some John Dalyesque skeletons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    Big Dave 2012. I'd offer to be your running mate, but I would probably be a "liability" to the campaign. I've got some John Dalyesque skeletons.
    Daly doesn't have skeletons. He has stories. :-))

    tell the stories like yer proud of 'em, and then the skeletons work in your favor and you get your own TV show. :-)

    Besides, with the rehab and the painkillers and the dead hookers and the panty hose and the embezzlement and the Thai prison sentence for sex tourism, I'm thinking of retiring from politics before I ever start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Daly doesn't have skeletons. He has stories. :-))

    tell the stories like yer proud of 'em, and then the skeletons work in your favor and you get your own TV show. :-)

    Besides, with the rehab and the painkillers and the dead hookers and the panty hose and the embezzlement and the Thai prison sentence for sex tourism, I'm thinking of retiring from politics before I ever start.
    Then you could get your GR username changed to Evan Bayh . . . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    Then you could get your GR username changed to Evan Bayh . . . . . .
    Just happened to be watching news on TV, Obama is talking (for the 9000th time) and Biden is standing behind him. Biden's forehead is scabbed from his car wreck in Vancouver... and for all the world it now looks like a Muslim forehead callus..

    dunno why that just hit me.. :-) Maybe he should tour the Muslim world and give a few speeches while he still has the 'credibility scab'..

    I think Bayh quit to preserve his chances against Obama in a primary.. if he had LOST the senate seat he would have been screwed in image terms for his next try at anything... so he stepped down instead, putting a finger in the eye of the Dems for the public to see..

    But Bayh is a crapweasel, and the people know it..
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Just happened to be watching news on TV, Obama is talking (for the 9000th time) and Biden is standing behind him. Biden's forehead is scabbed from his car wreck in Vancouver... and for all the world it now looks like a Muslim forehead callus..

    dunno why that just hit me.. :-) Maybe he should tour the Muslim world and give a few speeches while he still has the 'credibility scab'..

    I think Bayh quit to preserve his chances against Obama in a primary.. if he had LOST the senate seat he would have been screwed in image terms for his next try at anything... so he stepped down instead, putting a finger in the eye of the Dems for the public to see..

    But Bayh is a crapweasel, and the people know it..
    That's probably from Ash Wednesday on his forehead. We've got several people walking around with dirt on their faces today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    That's probably from Ash Wednesday on his forehead. We've got several people walking around with dirt on their faces today.
    I'm gonna go outside at break to see if one of the smokers will put their cigarette out on my forehead........
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Just happened to be watching news on TV, Obama is talking (for the 9000th time) and Biden is standing behind him. Biden's forehead is scabbed from his car wreck in Vancouver... and for all the world it now looks like a Muslim forehead callus..

    dunno why that just hit me.. :-) Maybe he should tour the Muslim world and give a few speeches while he still has the 'credibility scab'..

    I think Bayh quit to preserve his chances against Obama in a primary.. if he had LOST the senate seat he would have been screwed in image terms for his next try at anything... so he stepped down instead, putting a finger in the eye of the Dems for the public to see..

    But Bayh is a crapweasel, and the people know it..
    And another thing, David. I really hope you aren't cranking out these posts from scratch each time. I'm sure there is decent insight and well-researched positions, but I doubt I'm alone when I say I don't read them because of length.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noshuz
    I'm gonna go outside at break to see if one of the smokers will put their cigarette out on my forehead........
    I find it hilarious that all these people are walking around with dirty heads today. It's obvious it's just a "look at me, I went to church this morning so I'm going to heaven, you're going to hell because you have good hygeine" type of ploy. Well, god doesn't like a show off and we all know what a vengeful SOB that guy can be (Haiti).
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue; extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.

    What part of that don't you get, amigo? :-)) It may seem like people sound 'reasonable' when they constantly search for some halfway point from which they can accuse both sides of extremism, but the question isn't about reasonableness. It's about right and wrong, and how much we care about doing right and avoiding wrong. I've seen enough of this world to know that leftism, as policy and in its results, is a dreadful affliction on the people and always goes in the direction of pressing down on them, ruining their love of life, harming them economically, even spiritually. It makes droids and zombies of people who were bright, capable, with possibilities. Read your history. It's all there.

    I sometimes have trouble choosing which team I want to support in a football game, but I have no trouble choosing between the surgeon and the brain tumor, if you know what I mean. When history, evidence and sanity point to a course of action inevitably bringing disaster, sadness and misery, one does oneself no favors by trying to find the middle ground between doing it and not doing it. The Blairite 'third way' is in reality just a slightly slower way of doing the thing that secures all the misery, as we can see in the budget-busted Britain of the post Blair era. Broon is just a harder left guy than Blair, but Broon was strapped by the Blair era budget deficits, which he would have likely run up just as fast as Blair did with his third way. Fiscal irresponsibility, FIDUCIARY irresponsibility with the money that is seized from taxpayers and for which they deserve better results and more respect, and in the end economic crisis after crisis... devaluation... default... failure to keep promises made in bad judgment... same old lefty tale of overextended govt..

    I lived in Europe for several years, and multiple parties clog up the system. You end up with nobody getting a majority, runoff elections, parties making deals with other parties on each others' overemphasized agenda items in order to secure voting cooperation, and a government is formed that never has a chance to execute what it believes are plans to improve the country because it spends all its time doing things to pay off its coalition parties for their participation. Israel suffers from this problem, as they have been essentially leftist in government from the beginning, with defense as the only right wing impulse to make it through the knesset.

    The euro way of multiple parties just secures the hold that the left has on the system. A party with an agenda of less taxes, smaller government and less restrictions on the people is not going to find many willing coalition parties in a world where most of them have a real set of changes they want to impose on everyone, and few are willing to give up govt. power before they even get it. It's about THE POWER. A true conservative does not WANT power. He simply wants a chance to put things right. Washington REFUSED THE CROWN, when it was offered to him by frightened fellows in early America. They went with what they knew, monarchy, and judged him a good enough man to trust. But he did not want the temptation of power, which showed he WAS a good enough man.

    Conservative government does not want power, it wants to devolve power back where it belongs in a federal republic, to the states. Sadly, as man is a flawed being with a taste for power, it's hard to find a lot of partners in politics who are willing to go in with the idea of reducing their own power.

    But the public is now on the edge of revolt, demanding precisely this.

    A good start. :-)
    Seriously Dave, are you doing conservative radio?...if not, what type of radio are you doing now?

    Is it possible that every politician (or the community he/she represents) always agrees 100% with the stance the rest of his party is taking? Nobody has a spine...They all look like a bunch of sheep. If you are a democrat and you are against abortion, then vote against abortion. If you are a republican that is for gay marriage, then vote for it. It would be a nice change of pace to see individuals run for office based on their own set of political stances rather than strictly following their party stances...and even nicer to see them support these stances whether it was popular with their party or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    How does a guy who lives ON THE STREET afford a MOBILE PHONE WITH CAMERA?
    You've obviously spent much time thinking about this. Being homeless doesn't mean you live on the street. It also doesn't mean you don't have a job. But if you don't have a job and are looking for one do you leave the local pay phone number for them to call you back? Also, are you aware that you can have a phone with no service, except 911, and the phone camera would work? Just pointing some of these things out. I'm sure you have answers for all of these. It's all real simple as you've pointed out.

    There are some unfortunate circumstances that put people on the street. Some are self inflicted others are not. It bothers me when people take advantage of the system but this happens in all societies at all levels (like Madoff and the current banking scandals). It saddens me to see homeless people at the shelter that have legitimate hardship to hear shots like you just said. One family I personally helped had lost their mother due to illness. The got leveraged to the hilt paying for life on one pay check and doctor bills. He then lost his job due to the economy. They are homeless. He is scraping out a life and isn't a evil man just in an unfortunate play of events. He has a car, a cell phone, and many belongings that he has stored in various places. But rest assured he is homeless. He is doing temp work on construction sites but can't get enough money together to pay for 1st, last, and down on a cheap apartment plus his credit is currently shot. He has two young girls that he gets to school everyday and makes sure that they are feed and have a warm place to stay. BTW - He is on welfare and the checks come to the shelter that he stays at the majority of the time. Could he have made better decisions in life? Probably. Should he be punished for this decisions? I don't think so. Should he be denied welfare?

    Just because there are abusers of a system doesn't mean that it isn't playing a vital role in our society. I agree that welfare in its current state isn't perfect but I don't think you would want the elimination of care for the poor, the sick, or destitute. Take it away and see what happens to crime and how many riots you have. Let's resolve the problems.

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    The problem with welfare, unemployment benefits, or any other government-sponsored benefit is how unmotivating they are. I was unemployed for the first time in my life for about 6 months in 2009 and I was getting unemployment payments. I have to admit that my motivation for finding a job was not as great as it would have been if I had received nothing while unemployed. I think it's just human nature. Many of these government programs treat people as if they are children who can't think for themselves. People will not become motivated until they are faced with being thrown out on the street with nothing to eat. In this country, it has been proven time and time again that less government eventually leads to prosperity and happiness. I think worker's compensation is one of the worst things in this country. If I meet someone and they start talking about some neck injury they have and how they're getting worker's comp I usually try to get away from them and stay away for good. I can't stand these people. There's nothing more unattractive than meeting someone who does nothing and contributes nothing to society.

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    The only really predictable thing about a serious economic downturn is the political turmoil it creates. This time it looks as though politicians are going to be swept away like gnats on flypaper. Particularly the dems. Even liberals seem aghast at what clowns they are and how they just aren't ready for prime time.

    One thing that should be made clear. Europe's situation is in no way a model that could teach the U.S. something. The U.S. has many competitive advantages it would sacrifice if it devolved into European style government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    The only really predictable thing about a serious economic downturn is the political turmoil it creates. This time it looks as though politicians are going to be swept away like gnats on flypaper. Particularly the dems. Even liberals seem aghast at what clowns they are and how they just aren't ready for prime time.

    One thing that should be made clear. Europe's situation is in no way a model that could teach the U.S. something. The U.S. has many competitive advantages it would sacrifice if it devolved into European style government.
    No arguments there. It will be interesting if there will be a reform against the all incumbents, dem or republican. Let the pendulum swing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I can't stand these people. There's nothing more unattractive than meeting someone who does nothing and contributes nothing to society.
    What about cankles and gelatinous asssfat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    There's nothing more unattractive than meeting someone who does nothing and contributes nothing to society.
    Good thing for you you're not trying to date in Orange County.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    What about cankles and gelatinous asssfat?
    That's a given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    And another thing, David. I really hope you aren't cranking out these posts from scratch each time. I'm sure there is decent insight and well-researched positions, but I doubt I'm alone when I say I don't read them because of length.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    I find it hilarious that all these people are walking around with dirty heads today. It's obvious it's just a "look at me, I went to church this morning so I'm going to heaven, you're going to hell because you have good hygeine" type of ploy. Well, god doesn't like a show off and we all know what a vengeful SOB that guy can be (Haiti).

    I wish I could find somebody doing that around here. I haven't got to make fun of somebody in public in a long time . . . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    Seriously Dave, are you doing conservative radio?...if not, what type of radio are you doing now?

    Is it possible that every politician (or the community he/she represents) always agrees 100% with the stance the rest of his party is taking? Nobody has a spine...They all look like a bunch of sheep. If you are a democrat and you are against abortion, then vote against abortion. If you are a republican that is for gay marriage, then vote for it. It would be a nice change of pace to see individuals run for office based on their own set of political stances rather than strictly following their party stances...and even nicer to see them support these stances whether it was popular with their party or not.
    No, not doing radio now, but whenever I start writing or talking like this, someone always manages to suggest I do that.. :-)

    I'm just so lazy. That takes work instead of just sitting around thinking. I got up at 3 am to do a morning show for twenty years or more, and I kind of like sleeping.

    But one day, maybe..

    I heartily agree that pols should have, express, repeat and act upon PRINCIPLES.

    WHATEVER THEY ARE.

    It's the complete lack of principle that has the country in an uproar right now. Lefties are angry that their side isn't doing enough, isn't acting on principle, isn't unified for the 'good of the planet' or whatever they say these days. I disagree with the left but the more vocal and principled among them have my respect for that, at least..

    and our guys don't talk much about principle on my side either, although they are feeling the heat from the public now and beginning to do so. This underlines even more those weasels who won't express, repeat and act on principle. It shows, in other words, their LACK of principle.

    If every single politician on one side happens to share a principle and act in unison on it, fine. That isn't 'acting like sheep', it's purposeful principled action. Rarely happens, but when it does it's respectable. But modern pols act on everything BUT principle, on calculation and self-interest and manipulation and deviousness and --

    but wait.

    I think Cicero said "when the citizenry discovers it can vote itself a share of the public treasury, the empire is finished".

    So they were vote-buying with taxpayer money even in ancient Rome.

    I guess some things never change. Those guys would have been Democrats. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    You've obviously spent much time thinking about this. Being homeless doesn't mean you live on the street. It also doesn't mean you don't have a job. But if you don't have a job and are looking for one do you leave the local pay phone number for them to call you back? Also, are you aware that you can have a phone with no service, except 911, and the phone camera would work? Just pointing some of these things out. I'm sure you have answers for all of these. It's all real simple as you've pointed out.

    There are some unfortunate circumstances that put people on the street. Some are self inflicted others are not. It bothers me when people take advantage of the system but this happens in all societies at all levels (like Madoff and the current banking scandals). It saddens me to see homeless people at the shelter that have legitimate hardship to hear shots like you just said. One family I personally helped had lost their mother due to illness. The got leveraged to the hilt paying for life on one pay check and doctor bills. He then lost his job due to the economy. They are homeless. He is scraping out a life and isn't a evil man just in an unfortunate play of events. He has a car, a cell phone, and many belongings that he has stored in various places. But rest assured he is homeless. He is doing temp work on construction sites but can't get enough money together to pay for 1st, last, and down on a cheap apartment plus his credit is currently shot. He has two young girls that he gets to school everyday and makes sure that they are feed and have a warm place to stay. BTW - He is on welfare and the checks come to the shelter that he stays at the majority of the time. Could he have made better decisions in life? Probably. Should he be punished for this decisions? I don't think so. Should he be denied welfare?

    Just because there are abusers of a system doesn't mean that it isn't playing a vital role in our society. I agree that welfare in its current state isn't perfect but I don't think you would want the elimination of care for the poor, the sick, or destitute. Take it away and see what happens to crime and how many riots you have. Let's resolve the problems.
    As I've already said, the problem could be solved by a noncorrupt, serious effort to cull out the cheaters/losers/lazy from those in legitimate hardship. In fact, it would free up far MORE money to actually help those who NEED it. But as long as the 'system' is used by one side to simply buy votes and corrupt voters, and they don't REALLY care what happens to the poor and needy as long as they keep voting Democrat, there will NEVER be enough to care for the genuinely needy.

    I agree that we should resolve the problems. But I see problems whose resolution lies in, as Ben Franklin said, 'making them uncomfortable in their poverty' rather than comfortable in it so that all ambition, initiative and self-reliance are just snuffed out. Franklin understood human nature, and so do Democrats. They keep shoveling out the money, just enough to survive, and they keep threatening these barely surviving people that Republicans would take it away from them. Now that initiative and self reliance are gone, that sounds horrible, so they keep voting Democrat and they keep barely getting by.

    I concede your ground on the homeless guy with the phone. It struck me, and I might still be right about it, but so might you be. My friend tells me awful stories of the happy and proud abuse of the welfare system by certain people who think they have the right to as MUCH AS THEY CAN GET, by hook or crook. That ALONE ruins the system for the genuinely needy.

    You said that just because there are abusers of a system doesn't mean it isn't playing a vital role. Well, in principle I agree, but what if 9 out of 10 recipients are abusers? What if 9 out of 10 dollars are, essentially, stolen? What the heck kind of system would that be?

    Reality, as far as I can find out in my research, is WORSE THAN THAT.

    To be charitable is to volunteer, from one's own heart, one's own money/time/service/help/property/goods etc. To have government take one's money by force of law and give it to someone else, for government's OWN reasons, is not charity. It is something nearer to slavery. If we cleaned up this corrupt sick system and people were not taxed so heavily, MUCH MORE CHARITY would take place, and many would be helped just by the heartfelt personal involvement of the givers, which is lacking now, due to the coldhearted clockpunching bureacrats not actually giving a damn about who they 'help'.

    I want to add that this society, historically and now, is the most generous, charitable, giving, caring society the world has every KNOWN. The only thing that can be done to us collectively to tamp down that natural generosity is to take so much from us, and to WASTE and ABUSE the $$$ in ways that are visible and discouraging to us, that you actually end up throttling back the natural urge to give and help. Instead of this, instead of government being ostensibly in charge of what should be charity, perhaps they should go back to letting the people do it, and stop taking so damn much of their money so they actually have more to give and a heart to give it.

    Nowadays it is not a dumb question to ask "why should I give to charity? The government gives people all they need, and I pay taxes, so why should I give from what I have left over after that?" It is a terrible thing that this is not a dumb question. Government gives through political calculation and coldness, AFTER it's skimmed off whatever percentage it needs for operations (currently around 30%, rising as we speak). The Red Cross has operating expenses of less than ten percent. Some charities absorb all expenses and pass 100% of donations on to the needy. Government is inefficient as well as corrupt. We can do better. Challenge this society, challenge the poor too... we need to care for those who cannot care for themselves and are down on their luck, and the people who CAN care for themselves damn well ought to START, for their sake and the taxpayers.
    Last edited by daveperkins; 02-17-2010 at 02:05 PM.
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    Somethin' tells me you're REALLY fast typer Dave......
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    As I've already said, the problem could be solved by a noncorrupt, serious effort to cull out the cheaters/losers/lazy from those in legitimate hardship. In fact, it would free up far MORE money to actually help those who NEED it. But as long as the 'system' is used by one side to simply buy votes and corrupt voters, and they don't REALLY care what happens to the poor and needy as long as they keep voting Democrat, there will NEVER be enough to care for the genuinely needy.

    I agree that we should resolve the problems. But I see problems whose resolution lies in, as Ben Franklin said, 'making them uncomfortable in their poverty' rather than comfortable in it so that all ambition, initiative and self-reliance are just snuffed out. Franklin understood human nature, and so do Democrats. They keep shoveling out the money, just enough to survive, and they keep threatening these barely surviving people that Republicans would take it away from them. Now that initiative and self reliance are gone, that sounds horrible, so they keep voting Democrat and they keep barely getting by.

    I concede your ground on the homeless guy with the phone. It struck me, and I might still be right about it, but so might you be. My friend tells me awful stories of the happy and proud abuse of the welfare system by certain people who think they have the right to as MUCH AS THEY CAN GET, by hook or crook. That ALONE ruins the system for the genuinely needy.

    You said that just because there are abusers of a system doesn't mean it isn't playing a vital role. Well, in principle I agree, but what if 9 out of 10 recipients are abusers? What if 9 out of 10 dollars are, essentially, stolen? What the heck kind of system would that be?

    Reality, as far as I can find out in my research, is WORSE THAN THAT.

    To be charitable is to volunteer, from one's own heart, one's own money/time/service/help/property/goods etc. To have government take one's money by force of law and give it to someone else, for government's OWN reasons, is not charity. It is something nearer to slavery. If we cleaned up this corrupt sick system and people were not taxed so heavily, MUCH MORE CHARITY would take place, and many would be helped just by the heartfelt personal involvement of the givers, which is lacking now, due to the coldhearted clockpunching bureacrats not actually giving a damn about who they 'help'.
    And if the number was 1 out of 10, or 2, or 3, or 4, ... or ? This is what I'm talking about you pick 9 out of 10 or Nazi's or Stalin, or a brain tumor and surgery when you compare it to something you don't agree with. Don't get me wrong the other side does exactly the same thing. So here we sit in traction without movement and a bunch of finger pointing extremist not willing to give an inch because of what? Your perceptions of right and wrong? It is the state of our government right now and it sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    And another thing, David. I really hope you aren't cranking out these posts from scratch each time. I'm sure there is decent insight and well-researched positions, but I doubt I'm alone when I say I don't read them because of length.
    I can appreciate that, HB. I, unlike some, have no standing requirement that people read my posts.

    :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    And if the number was 1 out of 10, or 2, or 3, or 4, ... or ? This is what I'm talking about you pick 9 out of 10 or Nazi's or Stalin, or a brain tumor and surgery when you compare it to something you don't agree with. Don't get me wrong the other side does exactly the same thing. So here we sit in traction without movement and a bunch of finger pointing extremist not willing to give an inch because of what? Your perceptions of right and wrong? It is the state of our government right now and it sucks.
    I am quite confident the number is higher than 9, actually. It's just a way of expressing the seriousness of the problem. If it was nearer to 1 out of 10 abusers, I would not be, as they say, "on about it". The principle remains that initiative and self-reliance are ruined by constant low level free money, but if it were only one out of ten recipients who were ruined, I would not consider it so damaging as I do now. The human condition is known and predictable, and government is cruel to essentially enslave an entire class of people for political purposes by preying on known human weakness. It is what government does, though. OUght to be changed.

    And as I've said repeatedly, there are solutions at the end of my proposed road, not just removal/withdrawal/cruelty. We are a charitable people. Relying on government to do good is a fool's game. We should do the good on our own and keep the corrupt self-serving government out of that business. And perhaps a little eye contact, a few questions, a little shame and guilt for the abusers of government largesse, is one of the ways in which a person can get back his lost initiative and self reliance. Tough love. pressure makes diamonds, choose your metaphor.

    Many things about the state of our government suck. A lack of desire to cooperate during times when cooperation is explicitly defined as voting to spend the nation into insolvency does not suck. It is actually a moment of prudence, at least for the uncooperative.

    Sitting in traction, without movement is itself fact-neutral-- does movement mean going off a cliff? If it does, then I don't want to move. Not a millimeter. Unless it's backwards, which would be real progress, ironically. I'm not being difficult, I'm trying to describe what's really going on here.

    "Finger pointing and extremism" Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. :-) But really, an 'extremist' is someone who chooses the most extreme response to every provocation. That is silly. Labeling someone extreme because they refuse to compromise with what they honestly feel is wrong, well that's an unjust label and inaccurate too. Its not a love of being extreme, it's a desire to do right and avoid wrong. So call it 'rightism' or something.

    "over what? Your perception of right and wrong?"

    This is critical. Is truth subjective or objective? Is there 'right and wrong' that is always right and wrong no matter who perceives it, or when, or in what circumstances? I believe there is. I believe stealing is wrong, and most of the abuse and fraud I describe IS stealing, and it is unjust and oppressive and wrong, and something should be done about it. I have always believed this, ever since I first thought about it, long before I had any money at all, long before I paid more than token taxes, long before I had any stake in this stuff. Oh, and 'thou shalt not steal' is also a commandment, I believe. Not coincidental.

    There is no getting around it either. If you point at a need like poverty, say it should be met, then hold a gun to someone's head and remove their wallet in order to meet that need, you are a thief. There is no justifying injustice. You can say the need is not the fault of the poor, and that is largely true; but it is also not the fault of an ordinary guy who works and brings home food for his family. And if it is not his fault, forcing him to pay for it against his will is theft.

    Again, I do not say this in order to demand that nobody pay for the need or to say it should not be met. What I am saying is that when GOVERNMENT does this, government is OPPRESSIVE, government is committing THEFT, using the power of law and taxation the same way a thief uses a gun. Government is inefficient, corrupt, untrustworthy and destructive of the lives of the people it claims to help. The evidence is overwhelming.

    This is not an excuse to fail to meet needs. Conservatives are often labeled this way, mean, cruel, yada yada. But recent surveys show what I already know, that conservatives outgive liberals in charitable contributions by a significant percent. The more we have, the more we give, and everyone should. Except government, which is insatiable, corrupt and abusive of its citizens, both the ones they rob and the ones they support.

    Just my observations of how this country works. No need to keep reading if it makes you mad. But I'll always defend myself in the arena of ideas, and that's because I actually DO care about people and actually DO want better, for everyone, the taxpayers, the poor, and even the rich. If it weren't for the rich, there wouldn't be any JOBS and the rest of us would have no income to give to the poor.

    The world could USE more rich people. Then there'd be more government revenue... :-)

    P.S. "you pick nazis or stalin when you talk about something you disagree with.. the other side does the same thing"

    THere is a difference.

    I have four books on Stalin that I have read since last fall. I studied the Nazis years ago. I read Marx, Lenin, all that stuff. I've even read two biographies of Mao in the past year, one friendly, one more critical. I'm a student of history and people and civilizations and all this... when I compare one thing to another, I can back it up.

    The left calls everyone Nazis who disagrees with them. BUt Nazis were nominally socialists, left wingers who believed in a collective, in their case the Aryan collective, the great pagan pre-Christian Germanic nation (no, Hitler was not a Christian at all). while nominally socialists, they were in actuality fascists, not wanting government ownership of industry per se (like communists) but wanting all industrial leaders to align their policies with government-- and of course punishment of all kinds awaited those industrial leaders who did not follow Nazi advice. (Can you say Toyota?)

    Needless to say, a typical white house meeting with Immelt and the Google boys and the SEIU president Andy Stern is very similar to industrial leaders meeting with Nazi leaders to agree on policy matters. GE happens to make and sell all the light bulbs that government is now on the verge of mandating that we all use. Big Oil meeting with Republican administrations is one thing; all of America needs energy and cooperation between that industry and government is only sensible. But the GE thing is about government MANDATING USE OF A PRODUCT for the 'sake of the planet'. Makes me a little queasy.

    It is not at all silly or juvenile to compare Obama's gang with Nazis. It IS silly to put Bush on a sign with a hitler mustache and a swastika. Bush had very little in common with naziism except perhaps too much confidence in government to be a well-financed agent of change, and that only in the last two years of his second term, when congress reverted to Dem control.

    I propose that, before you conclude that 'both sides do the same thing', you look into this a bit more. I used to believe that until I made a second go-round of history 25 years after college and realized which comparisons were valid and which were not.
    Last edited by daveperkins; 02-17-2010 at 04:55 PM.
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    I'm jealous of all you guys with six feet of snow and freezing temperatures. It's WAY too hot here at the moment. The other day on the course I actually had to wipe a bead of sweat off my brow as I addressed the ball. And it's not only during the heat of the day. It's also so unbearably hot when I duck out for 9 holes every evening after work that I have to wear t-shirt & shorts.
    Last edited by Kiwi Player; 02-17-2010 at 04:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    I'm jealous of all you guys with six feet of snow and freezing temperatures. It's WAY too hot here at the moment. The other day on the course I actually had to wipe a bead of sweat off my brow as I addressed the ball. And it's not only during the heat of the day. It's also so unbearably hot when I duck out for 9 holes every evening after work that I have to wear t-shirt & shorts.
    69 f here. Things should be shaping up nicely for the match...
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    I am quite confident the number is higher than 9, actually. It's just a way of expressing the seriousness of the problem. If it was nearer to 1 out of 10 abusers, I would not be, as they say, "on about it". The principle remains that initiative and self-reliance are ruined by constant low level free money, but if it were only one out of ten recipients who were ruined, I would not consider it so damaging as I do now. The human condition is known and predictable, and government is cruel to essentially enslave an entire class of people for political purposes by preying on known human weakness. It is what government does, though. OUght to be changed.

    And as I've said repeatedly, there are solutions at the end of my proposed road, not just removal/withdrawal/cruelty. We are a charitable people, and the world knows it. Relying on government to do good is a fool's game. We should do the good on our own and keep the corrupt self-serving government out of that business. And perhaps a little eye contact, a few questions, a little shame and guilt for the abusers of government largesse, is one of the ways in which a person can get back his lost initiative and self reliance. Tough love.

    Many things about the state of our government suck. A lack of desire to cooperate during times when cooperation is explicitly defined as voting to spend the nation into insolvency does not suck. It is actually a moment of prudence, at least for the uncooperative.

    Sitting in traction, without movement is itself fact-neutral-- does movement mean going off a cliff? Then I don't want to move. Not a millimeter. Unless it's backwards, which would be real progress, ironically.

    That's always been my question for 'progressives', Poe.. what exactly are we progressing toward? Progress itself is a morally neutral term. Cancer makes progress toward killing us, much as you don't like that particular analogy. Arresting progress, then, is a good thing. Conversations that use such terms are often fruitless, as each person thinks they mean different things and when you try to agree on definition of the terms you make people angry.

    "Finger pointing and extremism" Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. :-)
    I actually don't mind in traction as you put it. But it used to be that we would cooperate when we needed to get something done for the good of the country. Now it is strictly along party lines.

    I don't know what progressives want. You should ask them.

    So, what was your opinion on the Prescription Drug Act of 2003? Were you as vocal about the spending then as you are now? Or were you down party lines on that one as well? I was outraged. Another fine example of what I'm talking about. That bill was drafted behind closed doors and voted on without much debate. The vote was held open for hours while people were bribed and coerced to change their vote. I personally think it was a move to get our seniors help but more to keep their money going to our drug companies. Medicare is bankrupt and we add prescription drug plan - WTF? You know there's large amounts of corruption on Medicare also. Didn't seem to bother the GOP at the time. Conservatives, ha! (to quote LarryRSF) I view the right as bower and spend after their turn. As I recall the right wing talk shows were pretty quite on the subject at the time...

    This is exactly what is going on with the health care proposal. One side is ramming their ideas down the other sides throat. It's like watching a bunch of kids in the school yard. Personally I think we ought to throw out all of the incumbents and start over.

    Both sides have dirty shorts on these issues. One is in power the other takes shots to de-power the other. It has little to do with right or wrong and more to do with power and money. Anyone who believes otherwise is a pawn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    I actually don't mind in traction as you put it. But it used to be that we would cooperate when we needed to get something done for the good of the country. Now it is strictly along party lines.

    I don't know what progressives want. You should ask them.

    So, what was your opinion on the Prescription Drug Act of 2003? Were you as vocal about the spending then as you are now? Or were you down party lines on that one as well? I was outraged. Another fine example of what I'm talking about. That bill was drafted behind closed doors and voted on without much debate. The vote was held open for hours while people were bribed and coerced to change their vote. I personally think it was a move to get our seniors help but more to keep their money going to our drug companies. Medicare is bankrupt and we add prescription drug plan - WTF? You know there's large amounts of corruption on Medicare also. Didn't seem to bother the GOP at the time. Conservatives, ha! (to quote LarryRSF) I view the right as bower and spend after their turn. As I recall the right wing talk shows were pretty quite on the subject at the time...

    This is exactly what is going on with the health care proposal. One side is ramming their ideas down the other sides throat. It's like watching a bunch of kids in the school yard. Personally I think we ought to throw out all of the incumbents and start over.

    Both sides have dirty shorts on these issues. One is in power the other takes shots to de-power the other. It has little to do with right or wrong and more to do with power and money. Anyone who believes otherwise is a pawn.
    sitting in traction was 'as you put it', not as I put it. I was using your words from the previous post.

    I am not a gigantic fan of Bush, except to wish he was back instead of us having Maobama in there.. :-) I'd actually prefer Reagan.

    But you're completely wrong, the conservative complaints about the drug bill were loud and steady, and I was one of 'em. That is a common response of the left to any conservative declaration of opposition to spending, "oh yeah, where were you when Bush yada yada?"

    I complained. Bush departed from conservative orthodoxy far too often for me to like. And also, Bush deficit-spent only one fifth as much as Obama has, and that was after eight years instead of just one. And Bush at least had more money to spend.. government tax revenues are down over 20% year on year since Obamao took over. Business is flinching. Obamao responds to decrease in govt revenue with massive INCREASE in spending. Insane. Disconnected from reality. Fiscally irresponsible, and abusive of taxpayers.

    anyways......

    I've not been saying the republicans are right. I've been saying what I BELIEVE. Republicans lost in 06 and 08 precisely because they joined the game bigtime and lost any interest in doing the right thing. They were doing okay in 94. But in '08. Voters made 'em pay. Now Democrats are up for their turn, as it's obvious THEY don't care what people want. It isn't the repubs' throats the health care bill is being jammed down, it's the CITIZENS' throats, who say loudly in every poll and every tea party meeting and every election that they DON"T WANT THE GOVT IN CHARGE OF HEALTH CARE. Never in my lifetime have I seen so many congresspersons and senators clutching their 2000 pages of mostly blank paper under an arm, putting their fingers in their ears and shouting LA LA LAAA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU when the people speak deafeningly loud in every possible way. It is beyond previous history, it is the beginning of fascism here, when lawmakers decide to do what they want to do NO MATTER WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS. Thank God they couldn't make it happen, but it was only because a few of them worried about their next election when they heard the people shouting.

    Remember, they were rushing to vote on this bill in JULY before the summer recess. They were in full silent jamdown mode nine months ago.
    Last edited by daveperkins; 02-17-2010 at 05:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    That's probably from Ash Wednesday on his forehead. We've got several people walking around with dirt on their faces today.

    Looked like a scab and I knew he was in a wreck, but you're probably right.
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    Dave,

    I'm glad to hear you discontent on the GOP's prescription drug bill. I too was appalled. Just as I am discontent on the current tack for the health care. Probably for different reasons than you but just the same I'm not happy with the results. I sure hope you voted with your disapproval of the GOP's application of their power on the prescription drug bill.

    Question, What did the GOP do for health care during this period besides the prescription drug bill? Control of the house the senate the presidency and nothing but an amendment this amendment? Tell me they don't stink on ice. But now they have ideas and if given the chance they can do something. They all stink on ice

    Honestly, I really don't think God has anything to do with the making of our Laws in the US. Maybe the old testimate GOD but not the Jesus God I read about. Hungry US children and obscene wealth probably wouldn't pass his test. Could you imagine shoving the CEO of Lehman Brother's through the eye of the needle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Dave,

    I'm glad to hear you discontent on the GOP's prescription drug bill. I too was appalled. Just as I am discontent on the current tack for the health care. Probably for different reasons than you but just the same I'm not happy with the results. I sure hope you voted with your disapproval of the GOP's application of their power on the prescription drug bill.

    Question, What did the GOP do for health care during this period besides the prescription drug bill? Control of the house the senate the presidency and nothing but an amendment this amendment? Tell me they don't stink on ice. But now they have ideas and if given the chance they can do something. They all stink on ice

    Honestly, I really don't think God has anything to do with the making of our Laws in the US. Maybe the old testimate GOD but not the Jesus God I read about. Hungry US children and obscene wealth probably wouldn't pass his test. Could you imagine shoving the CEO of Lehman Brother's through the eye of the needle?
    Man... just the use of the phrase "obscene wealth" shows how far apart you and I are politically. :-) And I"m not sure what God or Jesus has to do with any of this policy making... you seem to be offended at some behavior I haven't really noticed... baby kissing is a campaign thing, really, nobody's doing it in congress during legislative debate.. and whose children are hungry? Who goes hungry in America? NOBODY. That is a complete myth. Our poor people are FAT, haven't you noticed Michelle O's campaign against obesity? The poor people of the world literally MARVEL at the fatness of our poor, and they KNOW it's because our poor have MORE than enough to EAT, which poor Ethiopians decidedly do not.

    That is one of the reasons so many of the world's poor try so hard to get to this cruel, dreadful, unfair, right wing religious zealot nation called America. Because our poor are fat.


    But repubs have repeatedly offered HC plans and ideas that have not only been ignored by Obamao but have been buried by the media.

    My reform 1-- eliminate artificial barriers of state lines and open up all Americans to competitive pricing nationwide by all insurance companies. A few ins companies might fall by the wayside after losing a loophole legal advantage such as state line limits, but the prices of policies on the whole would PLUMMET, ending the 'crisis'. It's called free market competition.

    My reform 2-- cap "pain and suffering" judgments to $250,000, while leaving real damages unlimited. Malpractice is what it is, and doctors should be responsible for the harm they do, but no doctor owes a patient $50 million for back pain. It isn't the lawsuits themselves that cause prices of medical care to skyrocket... it's the DEFENSIVE MEDICINE that doctors practice, the unnecessary tests, the extra work they do just to be sure if they're sued nobody can say they didn't do it. Surveys show this costs over a hundred fifty billion every year, meaning the cost of care and tests given to people to avoid being an easy target for a malpractice suit. Talk about a 'crisis', 'can't afford health insurance', etc. No wonder, when lawyers (who mainly support the Dem party) are circling like vultures around every honest legitimate doctor who is trying to take care of his patients as best he can, which is almost all of them.

    Not to mention the doctors' malpractice insurance premiums would plummet if there was this cap on pain and suffering damages, and that too would reduce their costs which would be passed along. Already doctors are moving out of states which have high numbers of malpractice suits because the insurance costs so much in those states that the doctors LOSE MONEY on their practice. Needless to say, their staff loses jobs, the support people like scan readers, lab techs, office telephone salesmen, the owners of the buildings they rent in, etc etc, all come up losers when this happens. Economic fallout. When doctors are forced to move away from a state, the ones who remain are deluged, and they raise their rates because they can. Supply and demand. So this fallout also costs the PATIENTS and it costs the INSURANCE COMPANIES.

    I"m guessing you'd like to see government in charge of health care. They are the most bloated, inefficient corruptocracy in America, so I suppose your only real reason for this is because it would be somehow 'fair'.

    But when you make medical care "less expensive" through government legal pressures on doctors, insurance companies, medical device manufacturers etc, you make it lower quality and you also make it less available. This ALWAYS HAPPENS.. it's a law of economics. A pressure on any market force affects the two on the other side of the equation of price, quality and availability. Medical care is no different from any other service.

    Government in charge, PRESSING DOWN prices "for fairness", results in drops in quality and reductions in availability.

    I say reform is MARKET SOLUTIONS to drive down prices, which mostly would be removing of government-placed obstacles that cause doctors and patients to change their behavior in the direction of higher cost.

    Make it more affordable and more available by removing government from the equation, not by putting them in charge of it.

    By the way, if you have elderly relatives or plan on getting old yourself, you might be interested to know the philosophical backdrop of this present push for government health care. Rahm Emmanuel is the white house chief of staff. His brother, ezekiel emmanuel, is a doctor who writes a lot. In 2008 Dr. Zeke wrote a paper on his "Complete Lives Plan", detailing how unfortunate it is that senior citizens spend 80% of health care dollars and if we are going to save money and make it affordable, more of that should be diverted to younger, more productive people. He says that as you get older, your allotted dollars should decrease, not increase, because you have less life ahead of you.

    And if you think he means babies should get the most, you'd be wrong. You see, in Dr. Zeke's plan, the one who should get the most care is the high schooler. He's already received the benefit of his basic education, and is ready to join the work force and be productive right NOW. A baby may or may not complete this education, so his future is more in question, but a high schooler has already reaped the benefits of public investment in him and can now produce, so he gets first consideration. The less productivity you have in front of you, the less HC money you'll get from government.

    THis PHILOSOPHY of Obama's Chief goon's brother, dr. zeke, is not too far removed from Josef Mengele, and is highly influential amongst current health care reform planners. It is straight out of Marx-- your value to society is based on what you can do for it. If you are finished being productive in the technical sense, working, making something, doing some needed thing, well then you are just another hungry mouth. Best you just die and let us use that money on someone who can still be of benefit to us. Hitler explicitly used this rationale when making decisions on distribution of food and supplies during rationing.

    My view of this philosophy is that it is degrading, dehumanizing, tyrannical and bloodthirsty, and completely bins the notion that the weakest among us deserve the help of the rest. It is INHUMAN, abhorrent to me. But it is attractive to leftists. In 2007 Robert B. Reich gave a speech (on youtube now) telling kids at USC that if a politician were honest he'd tell his voters that old people aren't worth the money to spend keeping them going for the last few months or years, and what we want is for them to die and save that money.

    When he said he'd ask seniors to die and save us that money, the crowd of college students cheered. God help us.

    This is what's behind the plan to cut $500 billion out of an already bankrupt Medicare system to put it into general public health care funds instead. Medicare is for seniors.

    In my view, when we all are in charge of our own health care, we are the ones who decide when we give up and die. If government decides, we are les than human and less than free.

    Simple principle. Free market reforms save tons of money and do NOT put FREAKS and PSYCHOS like dr. zeke in charge of my future decisions.
    Last edited by daveperkins; 02-18-2010 at 06:09 AM.
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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Man... just the use of the phrase "obscene wealth" shows how far apart you and I are politically. :-) And I"m not sure what God or Jesus has to do with any of this policy making... you seem to be offended at some behavior I haven't really noticed... baby kissing is a campaign thing, really, nobody's doing it in congress during legislative debate.. and whose children are hungry? Who goes hungry in America? NOBODY. That is a complete myth. Our poor people are FAT, haven't you noticed Michelle O's campaign against obesity? The poor people of the world literally MARVEL at the fatness of our poor, and they KNOW it's because our poor have MORE than enough to EAT, which poor Ethiopians decidedly do not.

    That is one of the reasons so many of the world's poor try so hard to get to this cruel, dreadful, unfair, right wing religious zealot nation called America. Because our poor are fat.


    But repubs have repeatedly offered HC plans and ideas that have not only been ignored by Obamao but have been buried by the media.

    My reform 1-- eliminate artificial barriers of state lines and open up all Americans to competitive pricing nationwide by all insurance companies. A few ins companies might fall by the wayside after losing a loophole legal advantage such as state line limits, but the prices of policies on the whole would PLUMMET, ending the 'crisis'. It's called free market competition.

    My reform 2-- cap "pain and suffering" judgments to $250,000, while leaving real damages unlimited. Malpractice is what it is, and doctors should be responsible for the harm they do, but no doctor owes a patient $50 million for back pain. It isn't the lawsuits themselves that cause prices of medical care to skyrocket... it's the DEFENSIVE MEDICINE that doctors practice, the unnecessary tests, the extra work they do just to be sure if they're sued nobody can say they didn't do it. Surveys show this costs over a hundred fifty billion every year, meaning the cost of care and tests given to people to avoid being an easy target for a malpractice suit. Talk about a 'crisis', 'can't afford health insurance', etc. No wonder, when lawyers (who mainly support the Dem party) are circling like vultures around every honest legitimate doctor who is trying to take care of his patients as best he can, which is almost all of them.

    Not to mention the doctors' malpractice insurance premiums would plummet if there was this cap on pain and suffering damages, and that too would reduce their costs which would be passed along. Already doctors are moving out of states which have high numbers of malpractice suits because the insurance costs so much in those states that the doctors LOSE MONEY on their practice. Needless to say, their staff loses jobs, the support people like scan readers, lab techs, office telephone salesmen, the owners of the buildings they rent in, etc etc, all come up losers when this happens. Economic fallout. When doctors are forced to move away from a state, the ones who remain are deluged, and they raise their rates because they can. Supply and demand. So this fallout also costs the PATIENTS and it costs the INSURANCE COMPANIES.

    I"m guessing you'd like to see government in charge of health care. They are the most bloated, inefficient corruptocracy in America, so I suppose your only real reason for this is because it would be somehow 'fair'. But when you make medical care "less expensive" through government legal pressures on doctors, insurance companies, medical device manufacturers etc, you make it lower quality and you also make it less available. This ALWAYS HAPPENS.. it's a law of economics. A pressure on any market force affects the two on the other side of the equation of price, quality and availability. Medical care is no different from any other service.

    Government in charge, PRESSING DOWN prices "for fairness", results in drops in quality and reductions in availability.

    I say reform is MARKET SOLUTIONS to drive down prices, which mostly would be removing of government-placed obstacles that cause doctors and patients to change their behavior in the direction of higher cost.

    Make it more affordable and more available by removing government from the equation, not by putting them in charge of it.
    Congrats Poe...I wanted to be the one who made Dave break his 3 line maximum post length vows.
    The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Man... just the use of the phrase "obscene wealth" shows how far apart you and I are politically. :-) And I"m not sure what God or Jesus has to do with any of this policy making... you seem to be offended at some behavior I haven't really noticed... baby kissing is a campaign thing, really, nobody's doing it in congress during legislative debate.. and whose children are hungry? Who goes hungry in America? NOBODY. That is a complete myth. Our poor people are FAT, haven't you noticed Michelle O's campaign against obesity? The poor people of the world literally MARVEL at the fatness of our poor, and they KNOW it's because our poor have MORE than enough to EAT, which poor Ethiopians decidedly do not.

    That is one of the reasons so many of the world's poor try so hard to get to this cruel, dreadful, unfair, right wing religious zealot nation called America. Because our poor are fat.


    But repubs have repeatedly offered HC plans and ideas that have not only been ignored by Obamao but have been buried by the media.

    My reform 1-- eliminate artificial barriers of state lines and open up all Americans to competitive pricing nationwide by all insurance companies. A few ins companies might fall by the wayside after losing a loophole legal advantage such as state line limits, but the prices of policies on the whole would PLUMMET, ending the 'crisis'. It's called free market competition.

    My reform 2-- cap "pain and suffering" judgments to $250,000, while leaving real damages unlimited. Malpractice is what it is, and doctors should be responsible for the harm they do, but no doctor owes a patient $50 million for back pain. It isn't the lawsuits themselves that cause prices of medical care to skyrocket... it's the DEFENSIVE MEDICINE that doctors practice, the unnecessary tests, the extra work they do just to be sure if they're sued nobody can say they didn't do it. Surveys show this costs over a hundred fifty billion every year, meaning the cost of care and tests given to people to avoid being an easy target for a malpractice suit. Talk about a 'crisis', 'can't afford health insurance', etc. No wonder, when lawyers (who mainly support the Dem party) are circling like vultures around every honest legitimate doctor who is trying to take care of his patients as best he can, which is almost all of them.

    Not to mention the doctors' malpractice insurance premiums would plummet if there was this cap on pain and suffering damages, and that too would reduce their costs which would be passed along. Already doctors are moving out of states which have high numbers of malpractice suits because the insurance costs so much in those states that the doctors LOSE MONEY on their practice. Needless to say, their staff loses jobs, the support people like scan readers, lab techs, office telephone salesmen, the owners of the buildings they rent in, etc etc, all come up losers when this happens. Economic fallout. When doctors are forced to move away from a state, the ones who remain are deluged, and they raise their rates because they can. Supply and demand. So this fallout also costs the PATIENTS and it costs the INSURANCE COMPANIES.

    I"m guessing you'd like to see government in charge of health care. They are the most bloated, inefficient corruptocracy in America, so I suppose your only real reason for this is because it would be somehow 'fair'.

    But when you make medical care "less expensive" through government legal pressures on doctors, insurance companies, medical device manufacturers etc, you make it lower quality and you also make it less available. This ALWAYS HAPPENS.. it's a law of economics. A pressure on any market force affects the two on the other side of the equation of price, quality and availability. Medical care is no different from any other service.

    Government in charge, PRESSING DOWN prices "for fairness", results in drops in quality and reductions in availability.

    I say reform is MARKET SOLUTIONS to drive down prices, which mostly would be removing of government-placed obstacles that cause doctors and patients to change their behavior in the direction of higher cost.

    Make it more affordable and more available by removing government from the equation, not by putting them in charge of it.

    By the way, if you have elderly relatives or plan on getting old yourself, you might be interested to know the philosophical backdrop of this present push for government health care. Rahm Emmanuel is the white house chief of staff. His brother, ezekiel emmanuel, is a doctor who writes a lot. In 2008 Dr. Zeke wrote a paper on his "Complete Lives Plan", detailing how unfortunate it is that senior citizens spend 80% of health care dollars and if we are going to save money and make it affordable, more of that should be diverted to younger, more productive people. He says that as you get older, your allotted dollars should decrease, not increase, because you have less life ahead of you.

    And if you think he means babies should get the most, you'd be wrong. You see, in Dr. Zeke's plan, the one who should get the most care is the high schooler. He's already received the benefit of his basic education, and is ready to join the work force and be productive right NOW. A baby may or may not complete this education, so his future is more in question, but a high schooler has already reaped the benefits of public investment in him and can now produce, so he gets first consideration. The less productivity you have in front of you, the less HC money you'll get from government.

    THis PHILOSOPHY of Obama's Chief goon's brother, dr. zeke, is not too far removed from Josef Mengele, and is highly influential amongst current health care reform planners. It is straight out of Marx-- your value to society is based on what you can do for it. If you are finished being productive in the technical sense, working, making something, doing some needed thing, well then you are just another hungry mouth. Best you just die and let us use that money on someone who can still be of benefit to us. Hitler explicitly used this rationale when making decisions on distribution of food and supplies during rationing.

    My view of this philosophy is that it is degrading, dehumanizing, tyrannical and bloodthirsty, and completely bins the notion that the weakest among us deserve the help of the rest. It is INHUMAN, abhorrent to me. But it is attractive to leftists. In 2007 Robert B. Reich gave a speech (on youtube now) telling kids at USC that if a politician were honest he'd tell his voters that old people aren't worth the money to spend keeping them going for the last few months or years, and what we want is for them to die and save that money.

    When he said he'd ask seniors to die and save us that money, the crowd of college students cheered. God help us.

    This is what's behind the plan to cut $500 billion out of an already bankrupt Medicare system to put it into general public health care funds instead. Medicare is for seniors.

    In my view, when we all are in charge of our own health care, we are the ones who decide when we give up and die. If government decides, we are les than human and less than free.

    Simple principle. Free market reforms save tons of money and do NOT put FREAKS and PSYCHOS like dr. zeke in charge of my future decisions.
    I'm sorry. My level of A.D.D. just won't allow me to read this......
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