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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    hah hah... an opportunity for genuine bible teaching.

    Turn the Other Cheek is NOT AN ADMONITION TO BLANKET PACIFISM AND COWARDICE.

    If you read the story, you see in context what Jesus was actually saying--

    "do not be easily provoked.. do not let another person anger you deliberately in order to have an advantage over you.. think carefully about what you do when provoked... if somebody smacks you upside the head, turn the other side to them.. show them you aren't easily provoked.. don't swing.. YET... if a strong response is necessary, let it be because you judged it to be necessary, not because you struck back in anger without thinking.."

    Christ himself became deliberately violent in the temple, attacking the moneychangers PHYSICALLY, with a WHIP that he sat and braided carefully for hours on the steps before going inside... he was not a wimp turning the other cheek, not a pacifist..

    YOU are the one who missed the lessons in Sunday School, Riv.. :-))

    and the use of the word 'prick' is not discouraged in the bible, nor are most of the curse words. The one we are TOLD not to use is 'G... D... ", which is 'taking the Lord's name in vain" or some such.

    Regular cursing is just a matter of judgment. I'd say it belongs here. :-)

    Hey BossG, how'd I do?

    i
    I would like to think I am Jesus in this scenario trying to toss out the money changers (spammers) out of the Temple (which is GR).

    All those defending "The Boss" are like the multitudes that chose to set free Barabbas ("The Boss" in this case) over Jesus.

    I guess I was awake for part of Sunday school afterall

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    I would like to think I am Jesus in this scenario trying to toss out the money changers (spammers) out of the Temple (which is GR).

    All those defending "The Boss" are like the multitudes that chose to set free Barabbas ("The Boss" in this case) over Jesus.

    I guess I was awake for part of Sunday school afterall
    I clearly wasn't. I've heard of that Jesus dude but those other guys you mentioned have got me beat???
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    I would like to think I am Jesus in this scenario trying to toss out the money changers (spammers) out of the Temple (which is GR).

    All those defending "The Boss" are like the multitudes that chose to set free Barabbas ("The Boss" in this case) over Jesus.

    I guess I was awake for part of Sunday school afterall
    I've seen Barabbas in concert, but it was a long time ago. And I was ripped.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    I would like to think I am Jesus in this scenario trying to toss out the money changers (spammers) out of the Temple (which is GR).

    All those defending "The Boss" are like the multitudes that chose to set free Barabbas ("The Boss" in this case) over Jesus.

    I guess I was awake for part of Sunday school afterall

    Wow, Riverologist delivers the knockout!!!!

    Post of the week!!
    GR lives...

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    Wow, Riverologist delivers the knockout!!!!

    Post of the week!!
    I'm going to have to see him walk on water first. Riverologist and I will be meeting up in Edmond, OK for a game of golf sometime in the future and he can perform the miracle then . . . . .
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    I'm going to have to see him walk on water first. Riverologist and I will be meeting up in Edmond, OK for a game of golf sometime in the future and he can perform the miracle then . . . . .
    I can't wait. My brother gets a membership at Oak Tree Country Club with his job, so we might be able to swing it there. I doubt they'll let us dress up as tidy as Noshuz did for his round however.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    I can't wait. My brother gets a membership at Oak Tree Country Club with his job, so we might be able to swing it there. I doubt they'll let us dress up as tidy as Noshuz did for his round however.

    Are you serious? Do you know how difficult it is to get on at Oak Tree? You definitely have to know somebody to swing that green fee. That would definitely be a sweet deal . . . . . .
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  8. #108
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    Also, RO, just so you are prewarned, Oak Tree is the scene of some former PGA Championships, so I think you should know that it would definitely kick our arses . . . . . .
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    Are you serious? Do you know how difficult it is to get on at Oak Tree? You definitely have to know somebody to swing that green fee. That would definitely be a sweet deal . . . . . .
    It's not the Oak Tree National....it's Oak Tree Country Club. Sorry to have bloated your hopes. I'm sure the country club is nice as well. 36 holes, tennis courts. I'm use to playing on shaggy green municipal courses so I'm sure this course would kill me as well. Saying that, my brother is going to be the CEO of the hospital in Edmond, so I'm betting me might have a connection or two for the national.

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    I can't wait. My brother gets a membership at Oak Tree Country Club with his job, so we might be able to swing it there. I doubt they'll let us dress up as tidy as Noshuz did for his round however.
    Keep em coming River, you're on fire. I've seen soup kitchens where No Shuz wouldn't pass dress regualtions.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  11. #111
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    On the subject of religion, I seem to remember seeing somewhere that you aren't supposed to speak the name Jehovah out loud.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    I clearly wasn't. I've heard of that Jesus dude but those other guys you mentioned have got me beat???
    Perhaps if you remember the life of Brian when the crowd chanted to free Rwodney. Well Barabbas was the real life one.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Keep em coming River, you're on fire. I've seen soup kitchens where No Shuz wouldn't pass dress regualtions.
    Who knew the guy would all of a sudden spread his wings like this?
    GR lives...

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldplayer
    Perhaps if you remember the life of Brian when the crowd chanted to free Rwodney. Well Barabbas was the real life one.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    On the subject of religion, I seem to remember seeing somewhere that you aren't supposed to speak the name Jehovah out loud.
    No, you aren't supposed to say "Candyman" into a mirror 3 times.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    No, you aren't supposed to say "Candyman" into a mirror 3 times.
    Or, Beetlejuice, either . . . . .
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldplayer
    Perhaps if you remember the life of Brian when the crowd chanted to free Rwodney. Well Barabbas was the real life one.
    What a great movie...going to go buy it today. Thanks for the reminder

  18. #118
    What does any of this have to do with geese?
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  19. #119
    Dave, that was friecken great. I am glad another christian on here knows what they are talking about on this site unlike this atheist moron who's name is Riverologist. This guy is by far the most idiotic prick that I have ever met. Obviously his mommy and daddy didn't love him enough to actually teach him the teachings of Jesus.

    Go to church you moron and don't speak unless you know what you are talking about. Foot in your big mouth. I am talking to River. I hope God strikes you down for even attempting to say that you are Jesus. You are playing with fire on that one and are likely to get burnt.

    Repent you atheist heathen!!!

  20. #120
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    I can't stand people who think they know which religion is the "right" one. Going to church does not mean that you will be closer to God. Being a good person and helping others is what makes someone spiritual and closer to whatever God they choose.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by BossGodwin
    Dave, that was friecken great. I am glad another christian on here knows what they are talking about on this site unlike this atheist moron who's name is Riverologist. This guy is by far the most idiotic prick that I have ever met. Obviously his mommy and daddy didn't love him enough to actually teach him the teachings of Jesus.

    Go to church you moron and don't speak unless you know what you are talking about. Foot in your big mouth. I am talking to River. I hope God strikes you down for even attempting to say that you are Jesus. You are playing with fire on that one and are likely to get burnt.

    Repent you atheist heathen!!!
    To quote my favorite GR member, Spanq...."you've been owned, Jackass". Deal with it.

  22. #122
    Obviously you have never had a spiritual experience. It's not hard to look around you and see God at work. Christianity was the first religion which is the Bible, the written work of God and the works of Jesus.

    Yes it is good to treat people rite and pray but the only way to heaven is through the feet of Jesus. It says it in the bible. The only reason you have a chance to go to heaven is because of what Christ did for you on the cross. No other religion has a Messiah who sacrificed their life to offer you a way to have a relationship with the Father. Believe in whatever God you choose but I know that there is only one God and I know where I am going when I die.

    Talk trash if you want to, it does not bother me. I stand up for what I believe in and if you do not respect that then I consider you a sad man.

    Sorry guys, I am not going to sit here and let morons talk trash about what I believe in.

    BG

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I can't stand people who think they know which religion is the "right" one. Going to church does not mean that you will be closer to God. Being a good person and helping others is what makes someone spiritual and closer to whatever God they choose.
    This in itself is a form of religion, so basically you have contradicted yourself by implying that this is how everyone should be.

    There are no ends to arguing about religion.
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BossGodwin
    Obviously you have never had a spiritual experience. It's not hard to look around you and see God at work. Christianity was the first religion which is the Bible, the written work of God and the works of Jesus.

    Yes it is good to treat people rite and pray but the only way to heaven is through the feet of Jesus. It says it in the bible. The only reason you have a chance to go to heaven is because of what Christ did for you on the cross. No other religion has a Messiah who sacrificed their life to offer you a way to have a relationship with the Father. Believe in whatever God you choose but I know that there is only one God and I know where I am going when I die.

    Talk trash if you want to, it does not bother me. I stand up for what I believe in and if you do not respect that then I consider you a sad man.

    Sorry guys, I am not going to sit here and let morons talk trash about what I believe in.

    BG
    Actually, Christianity was not the first religion, simple faith in God during the patriarchal age was the first religion (Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob examples). Then, you have Judaism under the old law starting with the Sinaitic covenant. Christianity ended the Sinaitic covenant with the Jews. Interspersed throughout those ages was all kinds of paganism that was typically religion as well whether you want to deem it false religion or not.

    Question for you, Boss, what evidence do you have that the Bible's message was not tampered with through the hundreds of years that the Catholic church was in control of all Christian documents?
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    Actually, Christianity was not the first religion, simple faith in God during the patriarchal age was the first religion (Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob examples). Then, you have Judaism under the old law starting with the Sinaitic covenant. Christianity ended the Sinaitic covenant with the Jews. Interspersed throughout those ages was all kinds of paganism that was typically religion as well whether you want to deem it false religion or not.

    Question for you, Boss, what evidence do you have that the Bible's message was not tampered with through the hundreds of years that the Catholic church was in control of all Christian documents?
    I'm guessing from his previous post that he's really not too intelligent or articulate enough to explain any sort of religious philosophy to anyone. For him to say I'm burning in hell because I'm an atheist (which I'm not by the way) shows his level of understanding of anything bigger than his own personal best long drive....which no one really cares about either.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by BossGodwin
    Obviously you have never had a spiritual experience. It's not hard to look around you and see God at work. Christianity was the first religion which is the Bible, the written work of God and the works of Jesus.

    Yes it is good to treat people rite and pray but the only way to heaven is through the feet of Jesus. It says it in the bible. The only reason you have a chance to go to heaven is because of what Christ did for you on the cross. No other religion has a Messiah who sacrificed their life to offer you a way to have a relationship with the Father. Believe in whatever God you choose but I know that there is only one God and I know where I am going when I die.

    Talk trash if you want to, it does not bother me. I stand up for what I believe in and if you do not respect that then I consider you a sad man.

    Sorry guys, I am not going to sit here and let morons talk trash about what I believe in.

    BG
    Man, how cool of a reality TV show would that make. A whole bunch of different gods competing to show who cares most for their followers. We could make it like a japanese game show. It would be sweet. I wonder who would emcee? Probably that d-bag Ryan Seacrest.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    I'm guessing from his previous post that he's really not too intelligent or articulate enough to explain any sort of religious philosophy to anyone. For him to say I'm burning in hell because I'm an atheist (which I'm not by the way) shows his level of understanding of anything bigger than his own personal best long drive....which no one really cares about either.
    I can respect anyone's religion for the most part, but what I cannot respect is people's ignorance over their own religion. So, I like to ask questions to see just how much people know about their religion.
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by BossGodwin

    Sorry guys, I am not going to sit here and let morons talk trash about what I believe in.

    BG
    Apologizing for anything on GR is a total Bit*h move.....you have a lot to learn, son.

  29. #129
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    Boss, let me lay it down to you straight since you aren't figuring it out on your own.

    Your God and Savior may be able to forgive you for your past sins but it doesn't work like that here in GR.

    You came here as Spamming Scum....and spamming scum you shall remain in the books. There is no repentance, there is no forgiveness. Forgiveness from your God may be free but not here at GR. Some may say you've been baptized by fire for taking the flaming but you have yet to contribute anything here.

    For example, I have a very excellent thread started about golf spikes, a very important topic, maybe the most important right now, but have you taken the time to contribute? Hell No!

    You are selfish spamming whore and thou shalt remain.

  30. #130
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    Wow.

    A thread with the words 'Anal Intruder' in the title is now veering off all about religion.

    There's a word I'm looking for to describe this ... now what is it again ....????

    ... oh yeah that's it .... IRONY!!!
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Wow.

    A thread with the words 'Anal Intruder' in the title is now veering off all about religion.

    There's a word I'm looking for to describe this ... now what is it again ....????

    ... oh yeah that's it .... IRONY!!!
    I doubt some catholic priests think it's ironic.
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  32. #132
    Hey Boss.
    Did you ever consider that you might be a better ambassador for Christianity if you didn't call people fukking pricks, morons, and wishing them struck down? You need to quit waving the Christianity flag if you are going to conduct yourself like a hateful redneck, you are doing it a disservice. You have an opportunity to set a good example to some "heathens" but instead you are acting like a douche.
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  33. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by wofat
    I doubt some catholic priests think it's ironic.
    POTD candidate.
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    Hey Boss.
    Did you ever consider that you might be a better ambassador for Christianity if you didn't call people fukking pricks, morons, and wishing them struck down? You need to quit waving the Christianity flag if you are going to conduct yourself like a hateful redneck, you are doing it a disservice. You have an opportunity to set a good example to some "heathens" but instead you are acting like a douche.
    Where in the bible does it say 'thou shalt not act like a douche'?

    Come on show me!
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    POTD candidate.
    Do I get any credit for triggering the POTD?

    I'm sure it was me that triggered your Buddha POTD too.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    What a great movie...going to go buy it today. Thanks for the reminder
    We have a tradition of watching it on every Good Friday. It should tell you all you need to kow about where I stand on religion.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  37. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Where in the bible does it say 'thou shalt not act like a douche'?

    Come on show me!
    It's in the old testiment book of Leviticus right after "If thy neighbor bags a Thriver, he shall be smited."
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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by BossGodwin
    Obviously you have never had a spiritual experience. It's not hard to look around you and see God at work. Christianity was the first religion which is the Bible, the written work of God and the works of Jesus.

    Yes it is good to treat people rite and pray but the only way to heaven is through the feet of Jesus. It says it in the bible. The only reason you have a chance to go to heaven is because of what Christ did for you on the cross. No other religion has a Messiah who sacrificed their life to offer you a way to have a relationship with the Father. Believe in whatever God you choose but I know that there is only one God and I know where I am going when I die.

    Talk trash if you want to, it does not bother me. I stand up for what I believe in and if you do not respect that then I consider you a sad man.

    Sorry guys, I am not going to sit here and let morons talk trash about what I believe in.

    BG
    Hey Boss, I've seen Borat. Which one are you, the one getting slapped on the head and falling to the ground quivering, or the one doing the slapping?

    It must be nice to be so sure of something, without one shred of logic or evidence, scientific or properly documented (a book written about 80 or so years after the events it is depicting doesn't cut it as documentary evidence), to support your 'beliefs'. No offense to those of faith, but this is a discussion forum and we aren't all believers.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Hey Boss, I've seen Borat. Which one are you, the one getting slapped on the head and falling to the ground quivering, or the one doing the slapping?

    It must be nice to be so sure of something, without one shred of logic or evidence, scientific or properly documented (a book written about 80 or so years after the events it is depicting doesn't cut it as documentary evidence), supporting your 'beliefs'.

    You're sensing what I'm sensing, aren't you? Business is about to pick up.

    I must now pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for guidance in how to proceed. Pastafarians don't take this sh!t lightly. Jesus is actually the son of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. No proof exists to the contrary - not one noodle.



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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    To quote my favorite GR member, Spanq...."you've been owned, Jackass". Deal with it.
    in all fairness, you've been owned too. Pretend knowledge is pretend knowledge, whether it's Larry pretending to know the golf swing or anyone else pretending to know anything else..

    like what "turn the other cheek" means.



    Yep, I"m a bible smartass. I know that stuff. Don't doubt me. :-)
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  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    in all fairness, you've been owned too. Pretend knowledge is pretend knowledge, whether it's Larry pretending to know the golf swing or anyone else pretending to know anything else..

    like what "turn the other cheek" means.



    Yep, I"m a bible smartass. I know that stuff. Don't doubt me. :-)
    I know it, too, that's why I ask the questions I do to see how much others know what they profess to know.

    I also know quite a bit about the other religions of the world, so I'm loaded for bear . . . . .

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  42. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Do I get any credit for triggering the POTD?

    I'm sure it was me that triggered your Buddha POTD too.
    Fair enough, you get two points for "assists"
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    The Flying Spaghetti Monster has spoken to me in a vision...

    Gotta get this thing rolling.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    We have a tradition of watching it on every Good Friday. It should tell you all you need to kow about where I stand on religion.
    I have a vewwy gweat fwend in Wome called Biggus Dickus.....

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    Do you think anyone has ever lost their religion as a result of GR? Funny that this site always seems to have 500-1000 guests silently viewing.
    The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Purist
    Do you think anyone has ever lost their religion as a result of GR? Funny that this site always seems to have 500-1000 guests silently viewing.

    I doubt it, but this thread seems like a good place to start trying...





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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    in all fairness, you've been owned too. Pretend knowledge is pretend knowledge, whether it's Larry pretending to know the golf swing or anyone else pretending to know anything else..

    like what "turn the other cheek" means.



    Yep, I"m a bible smartass. I know that stuff. Don't doubt me. :-)
    I've met true loving Christlike Christians.....I know enough to know Boss is not one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature
    I doubt it, but this thread seems like a good place to start trying...





    FON
    Quite a few outspoken vegans amongst that bunch too. Google it if you don't believe me
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature
    I doubt it, but this thread seems like a good place to start trying...





    FON
    Is that Ralph Nader on the top right? Just picked up this gem in Spank's moon landing is faked thread:

    "Also, there are no contradictions in the Bible." -Spank's Cousin

    Uhhh... OK...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverologist
    I've met true loving Christlike Christians.....I know enough to know Boss is not one of them.
    "enough to know"... mmm hmm.. "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", said Plato or Cicero or somebody a long time ago...
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    "enough to know"... mmm hmm.. "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", said Plato or Cicero or somebody a long time ago...

    I think when Einstein said that the shortest distance between two points is a curve I think he had golf in the back of his mind. He was attempting to discover the best way to hit an iron shot onto the green. I know that I hit the ball too high and that I'd probably score better if I could lower my trajectory. Golf is not a game of confidence....it's a game of science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I think when Einstein said that the shortest distance between two points is a curve I think he had golf in the back of his mind. He was attempting to discover the best way to hit an iron shot onto the green. I know that I hit the ball too high and that I'd probably score better if I could lower my trajectory. Golf is not a game of confidence....it's a game of science.
    Science accompanied by Zen Buddahist discipline for the mind, FD san.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoolCat
    Is that Ralph Nader on the top right? Just picked up this gem in Spank's moon landing is faked thread:

    "Also, there are no contradictions in the Bible." -Spank's Cousin

    Uhhh... OK...
    Didn't know if you were joking or not. In case you really don't know that is Carl Sagan, one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldplayer
    Didn't know if you were joking or not. In case you really don't know that is Carl Sagan, one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century.
    Isn't he the guy that discoverd Venus a few years ago? Also, I'm not so sure about the theory of the earth revolving around the sun. Everyday I wake up and the sun is on one side of the planet and then when I go to bed it's on the other side. Well, in my book that's called MOVING!! Seems to me these blockhead scientists need to go outside more often rather than spending all day and night with their noses in books. Freakin' nerds!

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldplayer
    Didn't know if you were joking or not. In case you really don't know that is Carl Sagan, one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century.
    He was so dedicated to smoking dope to get inspiration on his theories that he had little time to work on any of the three marriages he had. Sounds like someone you can really look up too.

  56. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Isn't he the guy that discoverd Venus a few years ago? Also, I'm not so sure about the theory of the earth revolving around the sun. Everyday I wake up and the sun is on one side of the planet and then when I go to bed it's on the other side. Well, in my book that's called MOVING!! Seems to me these blockhead scientists need to go outside more often rather than spending all day and night with their noses in books. Freakin' nerds!
    True. I mean, everybody knows the Earth is round, I've seen pictures, it's a flat circle. I had one of those poindexters try to tell me that it was spherical. Yeah right, the people on the lower half would fall the fukk off of it!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    True. I mean, everybody knows the Earth is round, I've seen pictures, it's a flat circle. I had one of those poindexters try to tell me that it was spherical. Yeah right, the people on the lower half would fall the fukk off of it!!

    Exactly. The other pile of BS is this whole business of stars being light years away. I can see the things right out there in front of me. So you're going to tell me that it took millions of years for the light of a star to reach the earth? Dude, think how long a year is. That's a freakin' long time for something to be traveling extra extra fast. We're talking faster than a bullet from a Winchester Rifle. Pull this leg and it plays jingle bells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Exactly. The other pile of BS is this whole business of stars being light years away. I can see the things right out there in front of me. So you're going to tell me that it took millions of years for the light of a star to reach the earth? Dude, think how long a year is. That's a freakin' long time for something to be traveling extra extra fast. We're talking faster than a bullet from a Winchester Rifle. Pull this leg and it plays jingle bells.
    Did you know that the only thing in the universe faster than light is Chuck Norris's right foot?
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    Anyone here read "Cosmos"? My favorite book. Carl Sagan is probably the person I'd most like to meet, if he wasn't dead...





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    Haven't read the book but was entranced by the television series of the same name. It was shown in the early 80's in Australia. He was able to communicate complicated concepts about astro physics to complete laymen like myself.
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    "The Demon Haunted World" was a great book by Carl, in my opinion...
    It's not my fault God made me this beautiful.

  62. #162
    Well, first off I would be the one doing the slapping.

    Second, it is called belief by faith for a reason and there are multiple historical records that they have looked through to not only prove the existence of Jesus but to also prove the resurrection. I guess you other folks believe that we all developed from a one-celled amoeba into the most complex organisms known to mankind over millions of years. That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.

    All I can say is the Bible is the only written work on the face of the earth that was written over the span of 1500 years by 40 authors on 3 continents that is 100% non-contradicting. If the Romans had messed with the Bible, added or took away, then the Bible would most likely contradict itself. Also Christianity is the only religion who's prophet sacrificed himself in order to allow humans to have a path to the Father in heaven. All other religions were founded by mere men, not prophets and not by God himself. Also all other religions require you to do human works for redemption. Christianity is the only religion that offers forgiveness by prayer and belief by faith. John 14:6 Jesus declared "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

    This is my final post on religion. Believe what you wish to believe, I have not stated otherwise. I have merely stated what I believe in and why. If anyone else feels like they have a fair argument on a different religion then let me know but it will in no way change my faith in God and what I believe in.

    BG

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    Quote Originally Posted by BossGodwin
    Well, first off I would be the one doing the slapping.

    Second, it is called belief by faith for a reason and there are multiple historical records that they have looked through to not only prove the existence of Jesus but to also prove the resurrection. I guess you other folks believe that we all developed from a one-celled amoeba into the most complex organisms known to mankind over millions of years. That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.

    All I can say is the Bible is the only written work on the face of the earth that was written over the span of 1500 years by 40 authors on 3 continents that is 100% non-contradicting. If the Romans had messed with the Bible, added or took away, then the Bible would most likely contradict itself. Also Christianity is the only religion who's prophet sacrificed himself in order to allow humans to have a path to the Father in heaven. All other religions were founded by mere men, not prophets and not by God himself. Also all other religions require you to do human works for redemption. Christianity is the only religion that offers forgiveness by prayer and belief by faith. John 14:6 Jesus declared "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

    This is my final post on religion. Believe what you wish to believe, I have not stated otherwise. I have merely stated what I believe in and why. If anyone else feels like they have a fair argument on a different religion then let me know but it will in no way change my faith in God and what I believe in.

    BG
    Jesus H Christ, where to start?

    First off, I don't tink anybody would deny the existence of Jesus. Ther are numerous historical records of his life and times. I think the argment would be in how he is portrayed in the bible. If someone invented a time machine and went back to just before 0 AD Jerusalem, I think you would find a charismatic and enlightened philosopher who became a threat to the established status quo, and so had to be eliminated by the government of the day. Much the same way as guys like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were seen as dangerous radicals and anti government dissidents by the US government and had to be eliminated. My personal belief of Jesus from the (very scant) reliable documentation I've read over the years was of a thoughtful and outpsoken man who has probably been misquoted more than any other person in history.

    As for the 100% non contradicting, is this a transparent flame? I honestly can't believe anyone could possibly be dim witted enough to think this is true. Ever since Christianity was invented (yes invented), silly old men in funny looking robes have been sitting around for hours on end debating the meanings of verses, and the messages of God as written in the bible, never being able to come to any lasting agreements. The constant sprouting of offshoots of mainstream Christianity (one of wich i have no doubt you are a member of), complete with different ways to get to heaven, would also tend to hint at some degree of contradiction in the Bible. One of the greatest things Christianity has going for it as a religion is that it can be interpreted in so many different ways that it can be cutomised to fit almost any lifestyle.

    My advice to you as a career adviser would be to steer well clear of theology as a careerpath. From your comments on the origins of religions, you have absolutely no grasp of reality, let alone religion. I think it is a very wise decision to desist from further religious rantings on this forum as some of our more learned theologians (Sooner and Big Dave) will take you to school. Boy.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature
    Anyone here read "Cosmos"? My favorite book. Carl Sagan is probably the person I'd most like to meet, if he wasn't dead...





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    Bought it when it first came out. I see its still in the bookcase. I,ve slept alot since I read it, Billions and billions of years, may have to read it again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature
    Anyone here read "Cosmos"? My favorite book. Carl Sagan is probably the person I'd most like to meet, if he wasn't dead...





    FON

    Brilliant discussion. There are clearly additional dimensions humans can't perceive or comprehend. We know this because our awareness prevents any credible explanation of creation. The best we seem to have is an all knowing being. But then, who created him? Pursuing this question can bring you to the very edge of sanity.

    We are limited by the dimensions we're able to perceive. Forces, physics and places different than we can comprehend may very well exist, yet not be seen by us. So presumptuous we are about our place in the universe. While there isn't much evidence we're truly a higher life form, there's plenty that says we aren't.
    GR lives...

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    Brilliant discussion. There are clearly additional dimensions humans can't perceive or comprehend. We know this because our awareness prevents any credible explanation of creation. The best we seem to have is an all knowing being. But then, who created him? Pursuing this question can bring you to the very edge of sanity.

    We are limited by the dimensions we're able to perceive. Forces, physics and places different than we can comprehend may very well exist, yet not be seen by us. So presumptuous we are about our place in the universe. While there isn't much evidence we're truly a higher life form, there's plenty that says we aren't.
    But on the other hand why are we so different to all other forms of life on earth? Not too many monkeys or dolphins or killer whales that have in depth discussions about health insurance or have their very own golf discussion forum???

    Why is that?
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    Brilliant discussion. There are clearly additional dimensions humans can't perceive or comprehend. We know this because our awareness prevents any credible explanation of creation. The best we seem to have is an all knowing being. But then, who created him? Pursuing this question can bring you to the very edge of sanity.

    We are limited by the dimensions we're able to perceive. Forces, physics and places different than we can comprehend may very well exist, yet not be seen by us. So presumptuous we are about our place in the universe. While there isn't much evidence we're truly a higher life form, there's plenty that says we aren't.
    As usual you are onto something Zo. Thinking too much about stuff like who created the creator or the physical limitations of the universe can drive you crazy. At times like this I like to consult the golfer's version of the Bible and draw from the wisdom and experience of the Masters. I have listed some of the verses that give me clarity at confusing times like this. I hope this helps.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo0baknLDdU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x-nQ...eature=related
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    As usual you are onto something Zo. Thinking too much about stuff like who created the creator or the physical limitations of the universe can drive you crazy. At times like this I like to consult the golfer's version of the Bible and draw from the wisdom and experience of the Masters. I have listed some of the verses that give me clarity at confusing times like this. I hope this helps.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo0baknLDdU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x-nQ...eature=related

    Here on a Sunday morning, I'll take inspiration however I can get it. So thanks.
    GR lives...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    But on the other hand why are we so different to all other forms of life on earth? Not too many monkeys or dolphins or killer whales that have in depth discussions about health insurance or have their very own golf discussion forum???

    Why is that?
    If you believe stupid is as stupid does, we may not be in the top 10. Monkeys seem to be able to maintain their habitat and way of life without having their own actions destroy it. Are we? But assuming we hold the mantle here on earth, that still doesn't establish anything as compared to what may exist somewhere. Our planet could be scituated in a puddle of goop that was inadvertently spilled during some lab experiment, and we're about to be cleaned up and disposed of.

    It all depends up your point of reference, which I'm positing could be very limited given what actually exists.

    And monkeys do have their own discussion forum. From this vantage point, do I really need to point that out?
    GR lives...

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    Yer all a bunch o' dopes.

    (Big Dave inhales deeply to begin)

    :-)

    "First cause, uncreated, eternal" is what made the Big Bang happen. Only those who refuse to acknowledge such a thing is possible are so puzzled by the endless chain of 'but what caused that?" ad nauseum, ad infinitum... puzzled like a monkey tasting a Rolex.

    The universe had a beginning, but He who began it has Himself always existed. If 'always' even has any meaning, since time itself is a part of the created universe. The one who invented time is not Himself limited by it.

    As for why dolphins don't have discussions about health insurance, I propose that one must not assume that intellect is the difference between man and animals. Other animals clearly have some intellect, dolphins and gorillas among them. Parrots can have intelligent talks... one African Grey in New York was famous for saying "I want to ride in the car... remember the car? take me in the car... " the bird learned past and present, the imperative tone, question prompting, persuasion, etc. It knew how to talk, not just repeat words. It was using the language the same way we do, albeit in selfish and not abstract modes. And Coco the gorilla could talk in sign language, asking for her favorite flavors of ice cream and telling her handlers when she was depressed or lonely or happy. Again the self-motivated, not the abstract contemplative, language mode. Simple, for simple intellects.

    Intellect is simply a question of degree. We have more than animals. But it does not make us wholly different from them, only intellectually superior.

    The true difference is morality. No animal ever abstractly considered whether a thing was right or wrong in the absolute. Any animal will 'steal' what it wants from another, never considering for a millisecond the 'rights' of the owner. Even when humans do this, they do consider the wrongness of it. Morality.

    We have a conscience, not just an intellect. Animals don't have this as a part of their being. We do. It is a concrete, total difference, not one of degree.

    Or to put it another way, "I make the animals each according to their kind, birds, fish, etc. But man I make in MY OWN image and likeness." DIFFERENT.

    Or "He has signed His name across our hearts"... not across the hearts of animals.

    etc etc.

    We know right from wrong because we were made to know it, and no other creature was. The universe exists for 16 billion years because, in the moment before the big bang, He knew what He was making and He made it. And nothing made Him. Uncreated, eternal first cause.

    I do not have to prove myself right. The Sagans of the world need to prove me wrong. But everything we keep learning about the universe (background microwave radiation, heavy elemental distillation from light elements, the red shift discovered by Hubble showing pattern of cosmic 'explosion', etc) keeps pointing us to the Big Bang. And the laws of nature, the laws of physics, do not apply during the big bang, at least until about three seconds after it began.

    Science cannot know, or even try to learn. It is reduced to sheer speculation, often motivated by a deep desire to find a way to prove God-types wrong. But they cannot. Because observable patterns which obey nature's laws are simply not applicable to a singularity which is itself the beginning of everything. Science cannot observe it or repeat any of it or explain it. Science cannot even START that process.

    /end rant
    Last edited by daveperkins; 03-28-2010 at 08:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    Yer all a bunch o' dopes.

    (Big Dave inhales deeply to begin)

    :-)

    "First cause, uncreated, eternal" is what made the Big Bang happen. Only those who refuse to acknowledge such a thing is possible are so puzzled by the endless chain of 'but what caused that?" ad nauseum, ad infinitum... puzzled like a monkey tasting a Rolex.

    The universe had a beginning, but He who began it has Himself always existed. If 'always' even has any meaning, since time itself is a part of the created universe. The one who invented time is not Himself limited by it.

    As for why dolphins don't have discussions about health insurance, I propose that one must not assume that intellect is the difference between man and animals. Other animals clearly have some intellect, dolphins and gorillas among them. Parrots can have intelligent talks... one African Grey in New York was famous for saying "I want to ride in the car... remember the car? take me in the car... " the bird learned past and present, the imperative tone, question prompting, persuasion, etc. It knew how to talk, not just repeat words. It was using the language the same way we do, albeit in selfish and not abstract modes. And Coco the gorilla could talk in sign language, asking for her favorite flavors of ice cream and telling her handlers when she was depressed or lonely or happy. Again the self-motivated, not the abstract contemplative, language mode. Simple, for simple intellects.

    Intellect is simply a question of degree. We have more than animals. But it does not make us wholly different from them, only intellectually superior.

    The true difference is morality. No animal ever abstractly considered whether a thing was right or wrong in the absolute. Any animal will 'steal' what it wants from another, never considering for a millisecond the 'rights' of the owner. Even when humans do this, they do consider the wrongness of it. Morality.

    We have a conscience, not just an intellect. Animals don't have this as a part of their being. We do. It is a concrete, total difference, not one of degree.

    Or to put it another way, "I make the animals each according to their kind, birds, fish, etc. But man I make in MY OWN image and likeness." DIFFERENT.

    Or "He has signed His name across our hearts"... not across the hearts of animals.

    etc etc.

    We know right from wrong because we were made to know it. The universe exists for 16 billion years because, in the moment before the big bang, He knew what He was making and He made it. And nothing made Him.

    I do not have to prove myself right. The Sagans of the world need to prove me wrong. But everything we keep learning about the universe (background microwave radiation, heavy elemental distillation from light elements, the red shift discovered by Hubble showing pattern of cosmic 'explosion', etc) keeps pointing us to the Big Bang. And the laws of nature, the laws of physics, do not apply during the big bang, at least until about three seconds after it began.

    Science cannot know. Observable patterns which obey nature's laws are simply not applicable to a singularity. Science cannot observe it or repeat any of it or explain it.

    /end rant
    Yet, theres still the single person who will not believe this until you tell him the name of his dog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indacup
    Yet, theres still the single person who will not believe this until you tell him the name of his dog.
    Hey, I"m just trying to get this sputtering thread across the line to 200.. a fitting tribute to a tough newbie.
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    If you believe stupid is as stupid does, we may not be in the top 10. Monkeys seem to be able to maintain their habitat and way of life without having their own actions destroy it. Are we? But assuming we hold the mantle here on earth, that still doesn't establish anything as compared to what may exist somewhere. Our planet could be scituated in a puddle of goop that was inadvertently spilled during some lab experiment, and we're about to be cleaned up and disposed of.

    It all depends up your point of reference, which I'm positing could be very limited given what actually exists.

    And monkeys do have their own discussion forum. From this vantage point, do I really need to point that out?
    Devo said it best:

    "God made man, but he used a monkey to do it,
    Apes in the plan, and we're all here to prove it,
    I can walk like an ape, talk like an ape, I can do what a monkey can do,
    God made man, but a monkey supplied the glue!"
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  74. #174
    As I said I am a younger guy so I don't know everything about what I believe in, I will admit that. I am always interested in learning from older, more knowledgeable people about all aspects of the religion I believe in and other religions. Religion itself is extremely interesting to me. This has been a very interesting ride and it just keeps on getting better. Keep up the good work guys.

    BG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Jesus H Chris If someone invented a time machine and went back to just before 0 AD Jerusalem, I think you would find a charismatic and enlightened philosopher who became a threat to the established status quo, and so had to be eliminated by the government of the day.
    If you went back to just before "Zero AD", you would find that Jesus hadn't been born yet.

    On the adjusted Roman calendar, his work and lectures as an adult took place between about 20 and 33 AD, which is when he was executed. Zero is, technically, his birth year, the first "Year of our Lord" anno domini.

    Astronomy shows us now that he was likely born between four and eight years after what our calendars now show as zero AD. The Romans tinkered with the calendar quite a bit in the first milennium and even before.. hence "Julian" calendar, "Gregorian", etc.

    as for the rest, which status quo exactly? The Jewish? The Roman?

    The difference between Jesus and all other philosophers is simple-- Jesus stood up in the synagogue, quoted ancient Torah scripture, stopped at a prophetic part regarding the arrival of their future Messiah, the son of God, and then said "today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing".

    He claimed to BE THE MESSIAH.

    Nobody else in Hebrew history had ever done that, and really nobody has done it since until relatively modern times.

    Jesus deliberately did not leave it available to us to consider him a 'great philosopher' and ignore the God stuff. He said he was God. He was either God, or he was a complete loony. Those are the two choices.

    /end theo-philo-rant

    p.s. you are right, of course, about history. Pliny the Younger, the historian and scientist of Rome, wrote about him, as did Tacitus and Seutonius.. and of course Josephus the Jew who also wrote Roman history in the 2nd century.
    Last edited by daveperkins; 03-28-2010 at 01:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins

    Intellect is simply a question of degree. We have more than animals. But it does not make us wholly different from them, only intellectually superior.

    The true difference is morality. No animal ever abstractly considered whether a thing was right or wrong in the absolute. Any animal will 'steal' what it wants from another, never considering for a millisecond the 'rights' of the owner. Even when humans do this, they do consider the wrongness of it. Morality.

    We have a conscience, not just an intellect. Animals don't have this as a part of their being. We do. It is a concrete, total difference, not one of degree.

    Or to put it another way, "I make the animals each according to their kind, birds, fish, etc. But man I make in MY OWN image and likeness." DIFFERENT.

    Or "He has signed His name across our hearts"... not across the hearts of animals.

    etc etc.

    We know right from wrong because we were made to know it, and no other creature was. The universe exists for 16 billion years because, in the moment before the big bang, He knew what He was making and He made it. And nothing made Him. Uncreated, eternal first cause.


    /end rant
    With all due respect Dave, this type of talk is absolute speciesist BS. Other animals besides humans have displayed higher levels of morality than most humans ever would. An experiement with chimpanzees (which displays a complete lack of morality on the part of the human scientists) was conducted where the chimps were given the opportunity of gaining a reward by pressing a button which would cause an electric shock to one of their fellow chimps. When they realized this, the chimps steadfastly refused to press the button and even preferred to suffer pain themselves rather than inflict it on their fellow chimps. There are also endless studies of animals like elephants in which they display acute grieving at the loss of a family member, similar to when humans lose family members. As for the right from wrong argument, I've lost count of the amount of times I've come home over the years to see the family dog with could only be described as a guilty ook on it's face, only to find a chewed up shoe or damaged piece of furniture. He knew he did the wrong thing, but couldn't help himself. Alot like the millions of criminals sitting in jails across the world as we speak. Animals also have rigid social structures, where right and wrong behaviours are ingrained from birth. If anything, the main difference is the ability of humans to dismissivelt override morality and do what benefits them no matter what the consequences ot other innocent parties. Humans have a capacity for evil that most animals don't display.

    So are you saying that God is capable of great evil if he made man in his own image?
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    With all due respect Dave, this type of talk is absolute speciesist BS. Other animals besides humans have displayed higher levels of morality than most humans ever would. An experiement with chimpanzees (which displays a complete lack of morality on the part of the human scientists) was conducted where the chimps were given the opportunity of gaining a reward by pressing a button which would cause an electric shock to one of their fellow chimps. When they realized this, the chimps steadfastly refused to press the button and even preferred to suffer pain themselves rather than inflict it on their fellow chimps. There are also endless studies of animals like elephants in which they display acute grieving at the loss of a family member, similar to when humans lose family members. As for the right from wrong argument, I've lost count of the amount of times I've come home over the years to see the family dog with could only be described as a guilty ook on it's face, only to find a chewed up shoe or damaged piece of furniture. He knew he did the wrong thing, but couldn't help himself. Alot like the millions of criminals sitting in jails across the world as we speak. Animals also have rigid social structures, where right and wrong behaviours are ingrained from birth. If anything, the main difference is the ability of humans to dismissivelt override morality and do what benefits them no matter what the consequences ot other innocent parties. Humans have a capacity for evil that most animals don't display.
    Spoken like a true Vegan animal lover. This is the most comical post I have ever read!
    I chose the road less traveled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Spoken like a true Vegan animal lover. This is the most comical post I have ever read!
    Spoken like a true small minded ignoramus. Facts are facts, nothing to do with being vegan or loving animals. Speciesism is as real and illogical as racism, sexism or homophobia. Funny how the bible is the chief argument upon which exponents of all of these prejudices rely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Spoken like a true small minded ignoramus. Facts are facts, nothing to do with being vegan or loving animals. Speciesism is as real and illogical as racism, sexism or homophobia. Funny how the bible is the chief argument upon which exponents of all of these prejudices rely.
    Sorry NAH but I can't mount any sort of serious response to this other than to say that if I am prejudice in any way (and I hope I am not) it has NOTHING to do with the bible.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Sorry NAH but I can't mount any sort of serious response to this other than to say that if I am prejudice in any way (and I hope I am not) it has NOTHING to do with the bible.
    I'm not saying you are prejudice, as I don't know you well enough, and you usually display a fair amount of logic and reasoning in your posts. I was responding to your post which appeared to completely disregard out of hand an argument I had put forward which is backed by facts. The Bible comment was meant as a general comment, not for you personally.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  81. #181
    Most Kiwi's don't discriminate according to species, their sheep will attest to that.

    In a related story, affirmative action here in the states has recently addressed speciesism. The new office manager at my place of employment is an ostrich.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    Most Kiwi's don't discriminate according to species, their sheep will attest to that.

    In a related story, affirmative action here in the states has recently addressed speciesism. The new office manager at my place of employment is an ostrich.
    You're lucky, here in Oz the goose is still the dominant species for office managers.
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    You guys are comparing apples to oranges. Here at GR we have a saying, "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good point." Christians also have a similar way, "Don't allow scientific evidence get in the way of faith."

    Most Christians believe that the Bible is the authoritative word of their Creator. The Bible states that God gave man dominion over the animal. It also states that the spirit of man goes upward while the spirit of the animal goes down. In other words, humans are given a soul by their creator while animals are not given a soul. Therefore, humankind is greater than animal kind. This is all taken by faith and no amount of scientific evidence to the contrary will ever change their opinion.

    So, basically, you guys are wasting energy typing out a post.
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  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    With all due respect Dave, this type of talk is absolute speciesist BS. Other animals besides humans have displayed higher levels of morality than most humans ever would. An experiement with chimpanzees (which displays a complete lack of morality on the part of the human scientists) was conducted where the chimps were given the opportunity of gaining a reward by pressing a button which would cause an electric shock to one of their fellow chimps. When they realized this, the chimps steadfastly refused to press the button and even preferred to suffer pain themselves rather than inflict it on their fellow chimps. There are also endless studies of animals like elephants in which they display acute grieving at the loss of a family member, similar to when humans lose family members. As for the right from wrong argument, I've lost count of the amount of times I've come home over the years to see the family dog with could only be described as a guilty ook on it's face, only to find a chewed up shoe or damaged piece of furniture. He knew he did the wrong thing, but couldn't help himself. Alot like the millions of criminals sitting in jails across the world as we speak. Animals also have rigid social structures, where right and wrong behaviours are ingrained from birth. If anything, the main difference is the ability of humans to dismissivelt override morality and do what benefits them no matter what the consequences ot other innocent parties. Humans have a capacity for evil that most animals don't display.

    So are you saying that God is capable of great evil if he made man in his own image?
    at long last, a genuine debater! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

    :-)

    "So are you saying that God is capable of great evil if he made man in his own image?"

    well, as the story goes, God made man in His image, gave man the capacity to choose, Lucifer tempted man and then WOMAN gave in to the temptation.. :-) bringing 'evil into the world' of mankind. I didn't write the story but it has merit on the evidence.

    God had to give us the ABILITY to choose, because we couldn't really love Him unless we were free NOT to. You're not really playing a game unless it is possible to lose the game.

    The great theological difficulty has always been "did man cause himself to be this way or did God, by making him capable of this, actually cause it Himself?"

    God can be said to have caused everything, technically speaking, as an event cascade. But I think if we all analyse ourselves, we all must admit that we know exactly what happens within our own hearts.. we see a fork in the road, identify the right and wrong choices, and sometimes give in to some temptation and choose wrongly. And inside, we KNOW the choice was ours and that we should have chosen differently. We blame ourselves at our deepest level, when we are honest. We know we were not compelled by some force we cannot control or understand; we simply chose wrongly. We FEEL guilty, because we ARE guilty.

    God didn't 'do that'. We did, and do, and will again.

    As to animals having consciences and such, I submit again that no animal understands in the abstract that it is a self, that other animals are selves like itself, and that other animals have rights which it ought not violate (similar to its own rights which others ought not violate). If they did, they wouldn't eat each other, among other things.

    Certainly they exhibit grief, sacrificial behavior and all manner of other complex social activity; we call it 'instinct' or "ingrained from birth" in order to wave off the fact that we don't really know WHY they do it. It is similar to some human behaviors and we certainly can explain some of the similarities by our common mammal-hood, but it is ever the province of the scientist to anthropomorphize, to endow animals with human qualities out of some fanciful wish that it were true. Alice in Wonderland biology.

    It is not. Our similarities are because we are mammals. Our differences are because we are made with a conscience and they are not. Yes, the similarities are numerous, with many yet to be discovered. I can watch my cats and see much in them that is human (or much in us that is catlike, if you will).. they desire attention in a competitive way... they try to dominate, or to get along, depending on personality traits.. they have powerful wills, and are endlessly clever in getting what they want. They have intelligence, working out problems of logistics or physics, testing ideas, trying new things.... some prefer conflict, some avoid it..

    but they are cats.

    And dogs. Dogs do know guilt, but it is narrow focus, self-based guilt; they are in conflict, desiring to please you yet impulsively doing what they want. When those two things collide, they feel 'guilty', but not until they're looking you in the eye.

    My dog slept on my bed when I was not at home, but she didn't do that when I was there. She knew I didn't want her to do that. But when I came home suddenly, there'd be a big warm depression in the middle of the bed, and so help me she'd be on the floor ACTING LIKE SHE"D JUST WOKEN UP, yawning, stretching, literally trying to convince me she had not been on the bed. If I looked at her and pointed a finger at her, the guilt on her face was HILARIOUS. I didn't even have to say anything.

    But there was no hesitation in doing what she wanted, provided I was not around. She did not 'know it was wrong'; she simply knew I did not want her to do it. Her guilt was entirely present tense, the conflict between desire to please me and desire to sleep on my bed. Animals do not collect events in their minds over time, do not 'keep score' on such matters as we do. No animal would think to itself "I haven't made him angry lately, so I must be becoming a better dog" or what have you. Abstract consideration of general principles is not animal-like, and such a trait is necessary to be a 'moral being'.

    genuine, abstract knowledge of guilt, of right and wrong, is not a trait of animals. They are complex, but they are not human.

    incidentally, 'people in jail' is not proof they are morally unaware. No criminal, unless pleading insanity, says on the stand "so what if I killed that guy.. what's so wrong about that? Doesn't everyone kill people?"

    Criminal defense involves justifying, or excusing, immoral behavior, not insisting that there's no such thing as morality. The worst of us can be said to have at least a rudimentary understanding of abstract principles of morality, even if there's not a decent bone in their bodies.

    Animals do not know "thou shalt not steal". Even the most highly developed animal will steal food from another and consider it 'feeding behavior'. That is, if it does not simply EAT the other animal.

    It may be fairly said that some criminals 'can't help themselves', but none of them are unaware that what they're doing is wrong. But an animal killing and eating another, or even a chimp or hippo that kills the babies of others who are not of its tribe, does not have any idea of the 'wrongness' of what it does. It is all 'instinct', just another way of saying they don't know, and we don't know, why they do what they do. Animals care for their own young even to dying for them... saving them from predators, starving themselves to feed the young.. but animals also kill others to eat, or babies from other bloodlines so their own bloodlines will prosper, etc. Family behavior is not to be confused with abstract moral responsibility, even when it's impressively sacrificial.

    Elephants are among the most highly developed creatures on earth. Very smart, long memories. But they sometimes kill the babies of other tribes just like hippos and chimps do, and none of them feels the least bit 'guilty' about it, even as the mothers loudly grieve their dead infants.

    Powerful emotions and complex social instincts are not moral guidelines.

    This post is a bit scattershot, typed with greasy fingers from a rare bit of fried chicken. Hope it is coherent. I think so.
    Last edited by daveperkins; 03-28-2010 at 06:09 PM.
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    I sort of get where you are coming form Dave, but I personally don't know what level of consceince animals do or don't have. For one thing we can't communicate with them. You may be right that a non human animal's concept of right and wrong is more of a learned behavioural response than a true deep understanding of morality, but that cannot be stated as a fact as at this time we cannot communicate effectively enough with them to accurately determine this. The argument of animals being unable to think of life in an existential way is also well documented, but there are numerous examples of animal behaviour which contradict this assertion eg. building nests or homes, gathering food for future use, building a crech for young which are about to arrive. There are other examples of animal behaviour which displays a level of compassion and selflessness which also contradicts the argument that animals only act in self interest. Roosters sacrificing their own lives to allow the flock to escape. Male baboons threaten predators and cover the rear as the troop retreats. Wolves and wild dogs bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill. Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, in response to a gesture, share their food with others of the group. Dolphins support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe. I guess we can agree to disagree, and like you I welcome healthy debate.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    You guys are comparing apples to oranges. Here at GR we have a saying, "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good point." Christians also have a similar way, "Don't allow scientific evidence get in the way of faith."

    Most Christians believe that the Bible is the authoritative word of their Creator. The Bible states that God gave man dominion over the animal. It also states that the spirit of man goes upward while the spirit of the animal goes down. In other words, humans are given a soul by their creator while animals are not given a soul. Therefore, humankind is greater than animal kind. This is all taken by faith and no amount of scientific evidence to the contrary will ever change their opinion.

    So, basically, you guys are wasting energy typing out a post.
    Dude..

    Einstein teaches us that energy and matter are interchangeable and together they are a fixed quantity in the universe, like two glasses of water being poured into each other back and forth.

    It is also a known fact that, when I write extensively about my own opinions, no energy is wasted in that process.

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  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    I sort of get where you are coming form Dave, but I personally don't know what level of consceince animals do or don't have. For one thing we can't communicate with them. You may be right that a non human animal's concept of right and wrong is more of a learned behavioural response than a true deep understanding of morality, but that cannot be stated as a fact as at this time we cannot communicate effectively enough with them to accurately determine this. The argument of animals being unable to think of life in an existential way is also well documented, but there are numerous examples of animal behaviour which contradict this assertion eg. building nests or homes, gathering food for future use, building a crech for young which are about to arrive. There are other examples of animal behaviour which displays a level of compassion and selflessness which also contradicts the argument that animals only act in self interest. Roosters sacrificing their own lives to allow the flock to escape. Male baboons threaten predators and cover the rear as the troop retreats. Wolves and wild dogs bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill. Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, in response to a gesture, share their food with others of the group. Dolphins support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe. I guess we can agree to disagree, and like you I welcome healthy debate.
    briefly-- I have not argued that animals only act in self interest, just that they do not possess an abstract understanding of principles of morality applicable to other selves which are alike to their own selves.

    The sacrificial behaviors you detail are impressive and baffling, and clearly there is more to learn. I welcome new knowledge of them, and am always prepared to be amazed at their capacities.

    But nature is savage, and the exact same animal who will starve herself to feed infants of her tribe might rip the heads off the infants of a neighboring tribe.

    And she will no more know why she did one than the other.

    Nature is beautiful and cruel. Humanity is different than nature. Not just superior but genuinely different, and morality is the essence of that difference.

    anyways, that's my take. :-) Brain hurts. Must... stop... thinking....
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    You guys are comparing apples to oranges. Here at GR we have a saying, "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good point." Christians also have a similar way, "Don't allow scientific evidence get in the way of faith."

    Most Christians believe that the Bible is the authoritative word of their Creator. The Bible states that God gave man dominion over the animal. It also states that the spirit of man goes upward while the spirit of the animal goes down. In other words, humans are given a soul by their creator while animals are not given a soul. Therefore, humankind is greater than animal kind. This is all taken by faith and no amount of scientific evidence to the contrary will ever change their opinion.

    So, basically, you guys are wasting energy typing out a post.
    Very well put Sooner. You have put into words my basic opinion on the subject. I believe purely in evdence and logic and no amount of gospel will change my opinions either, so we are all wasting energy typing out posts.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    You guys are comparing apples to oranges. Here at GR we have a saying, "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good point." Christians also have a similar way, "Don't allow scientific evidence get in the way of faith."

    Most Christians believe that the Bible is the authoritative word of their Creator. The Bible states that God gave man dominion over the animal. It also states that the spirit of man goes upward while the spirit of the animal goes down. In other words, humans are given a soul by their creator while animals are not given a soul. Therefore, humankind is greater than animal kind. This is all taken by faith and no amount of scientific evidence to the contrary will ever change their opinion.

    So, basically, you guys are wasting energy typing out a post.
    Ha ha ha!

    My cousin told me yesterday, after I emailed him about your questions, to go to the Hovah website and use the search, as one would google.

    I just searched "soul" on that website, and you just got owned! --> http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_07.htm

    I lean towards the atheistic opinion that when you are dead, you are dead...

    Text of link above:

    "WHEN you hear the terms “soul” and “spirit,” what comes to your mind? Many believe that these words mean something invisible and immortal that exists inside us. They think that at death this invisible part of a human leaves the body and lives on. Since this belief is so widespread, many are surprised to learn that it is not at all what the Bible teaches. What, then, is the soul, and what is the spirit, according to God’s Word?
    “SOUL” AS USED IN THE BIBLE

    First, consider the soul. You may remember that the Bible was originally written mainly in Hebrew and Greek. When writing about the soul, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ne′phesh or the Greek word psy·khe′. These two words occur well over 800 times in the Scriptures, and the New World Translation consistently renders them “soul.” When you examine the way “soul” or “souls” is used in the Bible, it becomes evident that this word basically refers to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal enjoys. Let us consider some scriptures that present these three different senses.

    People. “In Noah’s days . . . a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.” (1 Peter 3:20) Here the word “souls” clearly stands for people—Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives. Exodus 16:16 mentions instructions given to the Israelites regarding the gathering of manna. They were told: “Pick up some of it . . . according to the number of the souls that each of you has in his tent.” So the amount of manna that was gathered was based upon the number of people in each family. Some other Biblical examples of the application of “soul” or “souls” to a person or to people are found at Genesis 46:18; Joshua 11:11; Acts 27:37; and Romans 13:1.

    Animals. In the Bible’s creation account, we read: “God went on to say: ‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.’ And God went on to say: ‘Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.’ And it came to be so.” (Genesis 1:20, 24) In this passage, fish, domestic animals, and wild beasts are all referred to by the same word—“souls.” Birds and other animals are called souls at Genesis 9:10; Leviticus 11:46; and Numbers 31:28.

    Life as a person. Sometimes the word “soul” means one’s life as a person. Jehovah told Moses: “All the men who were hunting for your soul are dead.” (Exodus 4:19) What were Moses’ enemies hunting for? They were seeking to take Moses’ life. Earlier, while Rachel was giving birth to her son Benjamin, “her soul was going out (because she died).” (Genesis 35:16-19) At that moment, Rachel lost her life. Consider also Jesus’ words: “I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep.” (John 10:11) Jesus gave his soul, or life, in behalf of mankind. In these Bible passages, the word “soul” clearly refers to life as a person. You will find more examples of this sense of “soul” at 1 Kings 17:17-23; Matthew 10:39; John 15:13; and Acts 20:10.

    A further study of God’s Word will show you that nowhere in the entire Bible are the terms “immortal” or “everlasting” linked with the word “soul.” Instead, the Scriptures state that a soul is mortal, meaning that it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4, 20) Therefore, the Bible calls someone who has died simply a “dead soul.”—Leviticus 21:11.

    THE “SPIRIT” IDENTIFIED

    Let us now consider the Bible’s use of the term “spirit.” Some people think that “spirit” is just another word for “soul.” However, that is not the case. The Bible makes clear that “spirit” and “soul” refer to two different things. How do they differ?

    Bible writers used the Hebrew word ru′ach or the Greek word pneu′ma when writing about the “spirit.” The Scriptures themselves indicate the meaning of those words. For instance, Psalm 104:29 states: “If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit [ru′ach], they expire, and back to their dust they go.” And James 2:26 notes that “the body without spirit [pneu′ma] is dead.” In these verses, then, “spirit” refers to that which gives life to a body. Without spirit, the body is dead. Therefore, in the Bible the word ru′ach is translated not only as “spirit” but also as “force,” or life-force. For example, concerning the Flood in Noah’s day, God said: “I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force [ru′ach] of life is active from under the heavens.” (Genesis 6:17; 7:15, 22) “Spirit” thus refers to an invisible force (the spark of life) that animates all living creatures.

    The soul and the spirit are not the same. The body needs the spirit in much the same way as a radio needs electricity—in order to function. To illustrate this further, think of a portable radio. When you put batteries in a portable radio and turn it on, the electricity stored in the batteries brings the radio to life, so to speak. Without batteries, however, the radio is dead. So is another kind of radio when it is unplugged from an electric outlet. Similarly, the spirit is the force that brings our body to life. Also, like electricity, the spirit has no feeling and cannot think. It is an impersonal force. But without that spirit, or life-force, our bodies “expire, and back to their dust they go,” as the psalmist stated.

    Speaking about man’s death, Ecclesiastes 12:7 states: “The dust [of his body] returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” When the spirit, or life-force, leaves the body, the body dies and returns to where it came from—the earth. Comparably, the life-force returns to where it came from—God. (Job 34:14, 15; Psalm 36:9) This does not mean that the life-force actually travels to heaven. Rather, it means that for someone who dies, any hope of future life rests with Jehovah God. His life is in God’s hands, so to speak. Only by God’s power can the spirit, or life-force, be given back so that a person may live again.

    How comforting it is to know that this is exactly what God will do for all of those resting in “the memorial tombs”! (John 5:28, 29) At the time of the resurrection, Jehovah will form a new body for a person sleeping in death and bring it to life by putting spirit, or life-force, in it. What a joyful day that will be!"

    Sooner, I am just going to 'google' that "Hovah" website and own you, ha ha!

    Sh!t, religion is boring anyway, so maybe not.

    Hey, I love you Sooner!

    ...But my cousin said I should search that website instead of questioning him; I think he is done with me.

    I hope he did not find out I betrayed his trust; did you drop a dime on me Sooner? ;-(
    Last edited by spanqdoggie; 03-28-2010 at 06:52 PM.
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  90. #190
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    I didn't drop anything on you, Spank, I think you're a genius and would never betray your trust.

    Personally though, I don't do research on the Watchtower website because it is highly opinionated and the JWs don't think they have to have much education in order to give an interpretation.

    They translated their own version of the Bible with a staff of 4: only one member had any training at all in Greek/Hebrew and it was only a semester or two. How do you translate an entire document written in Hebrew/Arabic and Aramaic with only one guy who had about a semester or two of actual training? Needless to say, actual education and knowledge in the subjects are not important to JWs. Kind of reminds you of GR, doesn't it?

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  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    I didn't drop anything on you, Spank, I think you're a genius and would never betray your trust.

    Personally though, I don't do research on the Watchtower website because it is highly opinionated and the JWs don't think they have to have much education in order to give an interpretation.

    They translated their own version of the Bible with a staff of 4: only one member had any training at all in Greek/Hebrew and it was only a semester or two. How do you translate an entire document written in Hebrew/Arabic and Aramaic with only one guy who had about a semester or two of actual training? Needless to say, actual education and knowledge in the subjects are not important to JWs. Kind of reminds you of GR, doesn't it?

    Sooner, you are my hero. Let us drop the religion crap, and get on with golf.

    Thank you sir.

    What I often like is your avatar after or before mine. I often wonder what your avatar would do to my avatar, in real life.

    I think your avatar would kick my avatar's ass, big time... always funny for me. ;-)
    It's not my fault God made me this beautiful.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    I do not have to prove myself right. The Sagans of the world need to prove me wrong.
    You destroy all of your arguments with this statement.
    GR lives...

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Spoken like a true small minded ignoramus. Facts are facts, nothing to do with being vegan or loving animals. Speciesism is as real and illogical as racism, sexism or homophobia. Funny how the bible is the chief argument upon which exponents of all of these prejudices rely.
    Ok now I am officially confused. WTF is speciesism?

    I treat all people equally. If I treat a Chinaman differently from a white man it is racism. If I discriminate against women it's sexism. If I discriminate against gays it's homphobia. But how can I discriminate against animals? A dog is a dog. A cat is a cat. A dolphin is a dolphin.


    Now if I were to discriminate between a German Shepherd and a Golden Retriever you might have a case.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    I didn't drop anything on you, Spank, I think you're a genius and would never betray your trust.

    Personally though, I don't do research on the Watchtower website because it is highly opinionated and the JWs don't think they have to have much education in order to give an interpretation.

    They translated their own version of the Bible with a staff of 4: only one member had any training at all in Greek/Hebrew and it was only a semester or two. How do you translate an entire document written in Hebrew/Arabic and Aramaic with only one guy who had about a semester or two of actual training? Needless to say, actual education and knowledge in the subjects are not important to JWs. Kind of reminds you of GR, doesn't it?

    Yeah, we are always cool...

    Sorry, I cannot help it. The master debater in me cannot stop right now...

    Please give me some of these fake verses so I can own my cousin... I want to own my cousin... he is a nice guy, but his ass needs to be owned...

    Give me one screwed up paragraph and I will be happy; he freaking dropped me like an illegal Mexican looking for a burrito in Sausalito.
    It's not my fault God made me this beautiful.

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Ok now I am officially confused. WTF is speciesism?

    I treat all people equally. If I treat a Chinaman differently from a white man it is racism. If I discriminate against women it's sexism. If I discriminate against gays it's homphobia. But how can I discriminate against animals? A dog is a dog. A cat is a cat. A dolphin is a dolphin.


    Now if I were to discriminate between a German Shepherd and a Golden Retriever you might have a case.
    Speciesism is prejudice based on species. Basically it means putting the intersts of humans above other animals based on species, and judging moral superiority based on species. A good example would be the argument that sealers have to kill hundreds of thousands of defenceless seal pups each year because the seals are eating all 'our' fish. Making assumptions about animals based on species or even breed is not speciesism, but assigning a moral value to a animal based purely on species is.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    Ok now I am officially confused. WTF is speciesism?

    I treat all people equally. If I treat a Chinaman differently from a white man it is racism. If I discriminate against women it's sexism. If I discriminate against gays it's homphobia. But how can I discriminate against animals? A dog is a dog. A cat is a cat. A dolphin is a dolphin.


    Now if I were to discriminate between a German Shepherd and a Golden Retriever you might have a case.
    and accusation of 'ism' is usually wrong on the face of things. To call me a 'speciesist' is to insist that, regardless of facts, I will always decide an issue in favor of one species, Man, over another or all others.

    It is an accusation that, in my mind, "BIAS" has permanent primacy over reality and truth.

    I do not, for example, believe in always resolving all conflicts between man and animals in favor of man. We have a responsibility of stewardship, to care for what we are given. But because I believe man is inherently different from, higher than, animals, on the grounds that God made us like Him, then I am accused of 'speciesism' for not somehow granting to animals a quality which my bible says God did not give them.

    The question is, "is the distinction I make a valid distinction?" Not "what irrational bias drives me to make an invalid distinction like that?" The invalidity of my distinction is presumed as a way of skipping out on the actual argument.

    Just like calling me an 'alarmist' is to accuse me of always making the first choice of acting alarmed about something, no matter what it is or what the facts are. Whether one OUGHT to be alarmed at something is never discussed.

    Likewise the present political charge of 'obstructionism', as if it is more important than anything else to simply BE OBSTRUCTIVE, no matter what's happening, OBSTRUCT IT, OBSTRUCT, MUST... OBSTRUCT... EVERYTHING.... that is obstructionism.

    As opposed to attempting to support what is right and oppose what is wrong, which is simply judicious application of legislative responsibility.

    but when you oppose something the OTHER GUY WANTS, well suddenly you become an irrational obstructionist hell bent on obstructing everything. :-)

    I do not like 'ism' name calling. It is a way of oversimplifying an actual argument which ought to be allowed to continue on its own merits, with ideas that should be explored.
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  97. #197
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    Dave, have you got too much time on your hands at the moment?
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  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldplayer
    Dave, have you got too much time on your hands at the moment?
    mon vieux, I consider the time I spend here educating needy minds as time well spent and worthwhile.. :-))) not to mention the practice of marshalling my arguments makes me a better defender of my side. Them what provoke me get what they apparently want, which is a good argument. Thoughtful, coherent, carefully expressed. So they can respond by throwing "isms" at me. :-))

    But yes, I have too much time on my hands.

    and I will deal with this surfeit of time in the appropriate way later this morning.

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  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    But on the other hand why are we so different to all other forms of life on earth? Not too many monkeys or dolphins or killer whales that have in depth discussions about health insurance or have their very own golf discussion forum???

    Why is that?
    Dolphins and Killer Whales ARE insured. The water parks always have insurance for these mammals. No need to discuss health insurance because it's already there. Same for Monkeys. The zoo will take care of them if they get sick. If they get TOO sick they just take them over to the crocodile pit at midnight. Talk about efficiency.

    Dolphin and Whale appendages aren't conducive to the game of golf so they stick with splashing contests. Monkey arms are too long for modern-day golf equipment. All of this seems so obvious.

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveperkins
    and accusation of 'ism' is usually wrong on the face of things. To call me a 'speciesist' is to insist that, regardless of facts, I will always decide an issue in favor of one species, Man, over another or all others.

    It is an accusation that, in my mind, "BIAS" has permanent primacy over reality and truth.

    I do not, for example, believe in always resolving all conflicts between man and animals in favor of man. We have a responsibility of stewardship, to care for what we are given. But because I believe man is inherently different from, higher than, animals, on the grounds that God made us like Him, then I am accused of 'speciesism' for not somehow granting to animals a quality which my bible says God did not give them.

    The question is, "is the distinction I make a valid distinction?" Not "what irrational bias drives me to make an invalid distinction like that?" The invalidity of my distinction is presumed as a way of skipping out on the actual argument.

    Just like calling me an 'alarmist' is to accuse me of always making the first choice of acting alarmed about something, no matter what it is or what the facts are. Whether one OUGHT to be alarmed at something is never discussed.

    Likewise the present political charge of 'obstructionism', as if it is more important than anything else to simply BE OBSTRUCTIVE, no matter what's happening, OBSTRUCT IT, OBSTRUCT, MUST... OBSTRUCT... EVERYTHING.... that is obstructionism.

    As opposed to attempting to support what is right and oppose what is wrong, which is simply judicious application of legislative responsibility.

    but when you oppose something the OTHER GUY WANTS, well suddenly you become an irrational obstructionist hell bent on obstructing everything. :-)

    I do not like 'ism' name calling. It is a way of oversimplifying an actual argument which ought to be allowed to continue on its own merits, with ideas that should be explored.
    There are different paths to get to the same destination. Just because your Bible and your God promotes speciesism doesn't make it less so. The KKK claims that God has told them that black people are inferior and don't have souls, but that doesn't exclude them from being racists, or excuse their racist ideologies.
    Last edited by Not a hacker; 03-29-2010 at 05:21 PM.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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