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  1. #1
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    Question 95% golfers cheat, so says Duke

    he latest issue of Golf Magazine prints that a Duke Univ. survey says 95% of "everyday golfers" cheat. Do you agree with this miserable survey result? I'd say that's close enough to the truth among the strangers I've played with at public courses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironman
    he latest issue of Golf Magazine prints that a Duke Univ. survey says 95% of "everyday golfers" cheat. Do you agree with this miserable survey result? I'd say that's close enough to the truth among the strangers I've played with at public courses.
    Depends on the intent of the study. Let's say the group you play in considers anything inside the leather as "good". If Duke considers that cheating then of course it's 95%. On the other hand, if they are implying that 95% of golfers break rules and hide it from the rest of the group then I'd say that's inaccurate.

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    I agree with famousdavis. Depends on where the line is drawn. Outright cheating I do not think is accurate but if you count not counting penalties correctly, like dropping as a lateral hazard when it is out of bounds, or practicing gimme putts, it probably is accurate. Golf is the next thing liberals are going to demonize. Environmentalists hate golf courses. You have been warned.

  4. #4
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    food wegies, Mulligans

    that article mentioned "foot wedge", Mulligans, not counting the 1 stoke penalty, etc

    to drop and take a stroke penalty when wasn't sure of out-of-bounds then, to keep up with time of play, instead of going back for "distance-and-stroke" is not cheating.and that article did not mentioned such nuances
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    I would have to say in my experience gimmes are socially acceptable. Not in a match or league play and tournaments but just a bunch of guys out for the afternoon. Not a problem.
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  6. #6
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    A great teaching professional once said "never cheat in golf...unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it."

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    hah hah, i never let my betting opponents take a "gimmie," but i accept when offered.
    golf's a relaxing betting game.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironman
    he latest issue of Golf Magazine prints that a Duke Univ. survey says 95% of "everyday golfers" cheat. Do you agree with this miserable survey result? I'd say that's close enough to the truth among the strangers I've played with at public courses.
    Lets get real-- MOST amateurs don't have a handicap index. They don't even keep score, much less cheat. They just don't care enough to write down or remember how many strokes they used--in the few times they actually play all 18 holes. --and they think those who DO care are more than a little wierd, like in '"get a life!" Golf to most normal people is no different than horseshoes, darts, pool, etc. Just a game, a passtime.

    Larry

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    Does anyone here think that 95% of "everyday" golfers have anything more than a rudimentary knowledge or understanding of the rules to begin with?

    How can one "cheat" when one's doesn't even know the rules?
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  10. #10
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    The pro's don't call it cheating. It's the interpretation of the rules. It's usually the caddies that "help out" the golfer. Be it a pro or amateur. You're right, I wouldn't be surprised if 95% "fudge" one way or the other on the golf course. And Famousdavis is right as rain, I heard that saying when I was a kid, and that's when Moses carved his staff into a 7 iron.

    Here's post for today.
    There off and running down in N. O. Who will make the cut and who will pull out his lap top, put a zero in the money column and a couple of minus’s for expenditures and looks for a flight home. One lousy putt can mean a plus or minus. Believe it or not, there are some guys on the tour who are just making it. Normally, if they win, they make about 60% after expenditures. Some greenside banter, I’ve know this for a long time and it just confirms the stuff that I hear. Jim Furyk has really never been one of my favorites. He’s a cheap sob, he paid his caddy going rate, no bonus, nothing extra. He’s not a gentleman on the course, takes a long time at “bat” and doesn’t talk to his playing partners. He also doesn’t take his hat off on the 18th green at the end of play salutations, if you all noticed. I’ve seen it before. I just don’t take kindly to him. If he asked me to play 18 with him, I’d pass.

    Who are some of the guys you would love to have join you for 18?

    I’ve played with some of the pro’s in my life, but they’re now on the senior tour, lol. Of the bottle rockets, Sergio, Camilo, Boo, of the “old steamers” , John, Choi, Love.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehelper
    The pro's don't call it cheating. It's the interpretation of the rules. It's usually the caddies that "help out" the golfer. Be it a pro or amateur. You're right, I wouldn't be surprised if 95% "fudge" one way or the other on the golf course. And Famousdavis is right as rain, I heard that saying when I was a kid, and that's when Moses carved his staff into a 7 iron.

    Here's post for today.
    There off and running down in N. O. Who will make the cut and who will pull out his lap top, put a zero in the money column and a couple of minus’s for expenditures and looks for a flight home. One lousy putt can mean a plus or minus. Believe it or not, there are some guys on the tour who are just making it. Normally, if they win, they make about 60% after expenditures. Some greenside banter, I’ve know this for a long time and it just confirms the stuff that I hear. Jim Furyk has really never been one of my favorites. He’s a cheap sob, he paid his caddy going rate, no bonus, nothing extra. He’s not a gentleman on the course, takes a long time at “bat” and doesn’t talk to his playing partners. He also doesn’t take his hat off on the 18th green at the end of play salutations, if you all noticed. I’ve seen it before. I just don’t take kindly to him. If he asked me to play 18 with him, I’d pass.

    Who are some of the guys you would love to have join you for 18?

    I’ve played with some of the pro’s in my life, but they’re now on the senior tour, lol. Of the bottle rockets, Sergio, Camilo, Boo, of the “old steamers” , John, Choi, Love.
    There is some guys at the top of the leaderboard today that I have never heard of before . . . . .
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  12. #12
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    I agree that at least 95% of 'everyday' golfers (by that I assume they mean social players) would breach the rules of golf all the time, but I wouldn't exactly call that cheating. Unless you are in an official competition you are not bound by the rules of golf so technically they aren't even in breach of anything. In competitions however, I believe the numbers would be lower than 95%, but still higher than most people woudl believe. In Oz, most of the golf we play is an organised competition, and I see people breaking the rules all the time. Granted, nost of it is from high handicap choppers who have no idea what the rules are and make them up as they go along, and I wouldn't call them straight out cheats but they do give themselves advantages as thay never seem to make up a tougher penalty for themselves than the proper rules. But there are some guys who knowingly break the rules or actually put down false scores. These guys I would classify as cheating scum, and they would number about 10% IMO. There are also gys who protect their handicap, which is a lesser form of cheating, and this group would number at least 20% or maybe even higher.
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  13. #13
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    NaH, you have mail . . . . .

    Mods, can you please turn on the "pop up notice personal message received" feature?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Lets get real-- MOST amateurs don't have a handicap index. They don't even keep score, much less cheat. They just don't care enough to write down or remember how many strokes they used--in the few times they actually play all 18 holes. --and they think those who DO care are more than a little wierd, like in '"get a life!" Golf to most normal people is no different than horseshoes, darts, pool, etc. Just a game, a passtime.
    Larry
    With the greatest of respect Larry I do consider myself a normal person, and a keen golfer.
    I play 2 to 3 18 hole club competion rounds every week and have a good knowledge of the rules. Most amateurs may not have a handicap in the US but let me assure you that it is not the same in Australia or other countries for that matter. I want to make you aware that you're sweeping generalizations are a long way of the mark. Most amatuers I know maintain a valid handicap, play to the rules and keep an accurate score. In fact to be able to return a card it has to be marked by a fellow player in your group. Rulings are also given by your marker, and are often clarified by the other members of the group. and are even refered to golf operations after the round if there is any confusion. This is all part of being a legitimate club player here.
    Golf may just be a passtime to you akin to horseshoes but I assure you that you are out of touch when you assume the majority of golfers are like you.
    I am normal, I do have a life, and I am a genuine 6 cap. Also to the best of my knowledge I have never cheated. I know literally 100 other players who are just like me.
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    Hi

    I believe that this falls under the rule "97.9% of all statistics are made up on the spot"

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  16. #16
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    I could care less what any other golfers do in counting strokes, improving lies, interpreting penalty procedures etc. UNLESS I am playing them in a tournament or for money and only then I will call them on something obvious or questionable and I expect them to do the same with me. In match play I will never take a gimme unless the hole is obviously mine but I will give them all day until it means a hole or the match.

  17. #17
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    I think most cheating is done under an already accepted agreement with your playing partner. People know you are taking a give me or occasionally take a mulligan and are okay with it. The cheating that is wrong is the ones that intentionally try to pad scores (the improved lie when someone's back is turned, or not counting a penalty stroke if you ground a club in the hazard, etc). If you and your golfing buddies agree to a free mulligan on the first tee, that is not cheating, or a 1 foot give me putt, or whatever.

    A good number of cheaters probably dont know the rules that well either. OB is 2 strokes, not one, cant ground a club in a trap, putting on the green with the pin in the hole, etc.
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  18. #18
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    It depends on the specifics of the study, but in general, most people cheat in some way or another. That said, I think most of the rules broken most often by most people, are justified.

    Examples...

    Lost balls.

    The best players in the world have marshalls and hundreds of fans to go hunting for their balls, and even to move 600 pound "loose impediments." I shouldn't have to take a penalty that the pros don't have to, simply because I'm not hiring a scouting crew to track all of my tee shots, or World's Strongest Man competitors to move boulders out of my way. If it can be reasonably determined that the ball is somewhere in the general area not OB, and is most likely hidden under a leaf, or lost in a sea of white clover weeds, I'm dropping, and not taking a stroke.

    Course conditions.

    If I hit a shot that happens to land in some mud or dirt, I'm moving the ball. The pros have perfectly conditioned courses to play on week after week. If the best players in the world don't have to hit out of a mud pits, or off of rock hard dirt after hitting reasonably good shots that are in play, I'm not either.

    Professionals already have the advantage of being vastly more skilled, which is fair. To give them on-course advantages that are completely unrelated to their ability, and deny amateurs who don't have those advantages any sort of counter-balance, is unfair.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenCityGolfer
    It depends on the specifics of the study, but in general, most people cheat in some way or another. That said, I think most of the rules broken most often by most people, are justified.

    Examples...

    Lost balls.

    The best players in the world have marshalls and hundreds of fans to go hunting for their balls, and even to move 600 pound "loose impediments." I shouldn't have to take a penalty that the pros don't have to, simply because I'm not hiring a scouting crew to track all of my tee shots, or World's Strongest Man competitors to move boulders out of my way. If it can be reasonably determined that the ball is somewhere in the general area not OB, and is most likely hidden under a leaf, or lost in a sea of white clover weeds, I'm dropping, and not taking a stroke.

    Course conditions.

    If I hit a shot that happens to land in some mud or dirt, I'm moving the ball. The pros have perfectly conditioned courses to play on week after week. If the best players in the world don't have to hit out of a mud pits, or off of rock hard dirt after hitting reasonably good shots that are in play, I'm not either.

    Professionals already have the advantage of being vastly more skilled, which is fair. To give them on-course advantages that are completely unrelated to their ability, and deny amateurs who don't have those advantages any sort of counter-balance, is unfair.
    and they have caddy's help in mapping and reading the greens as well. Isn't that considered some cheating? it is in my book

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironman
    he latest issue of Golf Magazine prints that a Duke Univ. survey says 95% of "everyday golfers" cheat. Do you agree with this miserable survey result? I'd say that's close enough to the truth among the strangers I've played with at public courses.
    When I initially read your thread title I thought this was the Duke of New York...A #1. Only Snake Plisken can take him down.

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    I had read somewhere a few years ago the PGA said the most cheating occurs in the 10-13 handicap range and in scramble type tournaments. I mean blatant cheating. 10-13 handicap seems to be where guys who can play less target themselves for tournament play. If you can play to say a 5 but have a 10, you have an advantage but technically that is cheating.

    I have seen scramble cheating myself. We played behind a group that turned in a 58 scorecard. Considering how slow they were I could see every shot they played. They shot 6 under. They cheated to win 25 bucks a man. Pretty freaking sad.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelman
    I had read somewhere a few years ago the PGA said the most cheating occurs in the 10-13 handicap range and in scramble type tournaments. I mean blatant cheating. 10-13 handicap seems to be where guys who can play less target themselves for tournament play. If you can play to say a 5 but have a 10, you have an advantage but technically that is cheating.

    I have seen scramble cheating myself. We played behind a group that turned in a 58 scorecard. Considering how slow they were I could see every shot they played. They shot 6 under. They cheated to win 25 bucks a man. Pretty freaking sad.
    Been the victim of that scramble scenario myself on more than one occasion. Most memorable was a Realtor tourney in which the four of us consisted of me playing to about 8 at the time, my friend who was a 70's mini-tour vet who had gotten his amateur status back and was about a 1 at his club, an 18 handicap woman who could hit her driver 225-240 off her set of tees which meant us guys were hitting 5 iron to PW into the 4 par 5's, and last a 20 handicapper along for the ride. We were at 8 under in very windy cool conditions and thought we would at least take low gross. The winning score came in at 13 under from a foursome of mortgage brokers that my friend and I watched on the range before the shotgun start. Based on their range swings, there was one guy that looked like he could break 80 one out of thirty rounds. The other guys were 100's shooters all their lives. Say what?

  23. #23
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    Happens all too often Mongrel. Why I hate playing in scrambles. Sad thing is I have seen it happen in scrambles for CHURCHES! Cheating ass bastards from the church doing it.

    I have been around guys who talk crap too about how great they are and how they win all these tournaments and stuff. So, I ask them if they would like to put a few bucks up. 20 dollar nassau or something. Funny how the suddenly stop trash talking. Every once in a while an idiot will say sure and I just end up with 60 bucks.

  24. #24
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    I watched a guy this last weekend pull the Bushwood winter lie rule this last weekend. He advanced the ball like 40 yards to get a clear shot to the green. His friends were "Wow that was a heck of a drive" and "you must have gotten a great bounce." I couldn't resist and shouted back to them, "Yah, you should see his lie. It's like he placed the ball there." F'ing cheater...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS
    NaH, you have mail . . . . .

    Mods, can you please turn on the "pop up notice personal message received" feature?

    Yeah, totally. Please turn on the pop up notice for private messages. Jeff you have a private message.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenCityGolfer
    It depends on the specifics of the study, but in general, most people cheat in some way or another. That said, I think most of the rules broken most often by most people, are justified.

    Examples...

    Lost balls.

    The best players in the world have marshalls and hundreds of fans to go hunting for their balls, and even to move 600 pound "loose impediments." I shouldn't have to take a penalty that the pros don't have to, simply because I'm not hiring a scouting crew to track all of my tee shots, or World's Strongest Man competitors to move boulders out of my way. If it can be reasonably determined that the ball is somewhere in the general area not OB, and is most likely hidden under a leaf, or lost in a sea of white clover weeds, I'm dropping, and not taking a stroke.

    Course conditions.

    If I hit a shot that happens to land in some mud or dirt, I'm moving the ball. The pros have perfectly conditioned courses to play on week after week. If the best players in the world don't have to hit out of a mud pits, or off of rock hard dirt after hitting reasonably good shots that are in play, I'm not either.

    Professionals already have the advantage of being vastly more skilled, which is fair. To give them on-course advantages that are completely unrelated to their ability, and deny amateurs who don't have those advantages any sort of counter-balance, is unfair.
    I was going to make a post until I saw this! These are exactly the situations that I will ever allow bending of the rules. If I see my ball land and roll into the rough and it's obvious that it didn't go OB or into a hazard I'll drop without penalty to keep up the pace of play. A foursome looking for balls all day gets old really quick! There are only a few courses where they keep their rough long enough that I'm losing balls just off the fairway so this doesn't come up that often.

    Your second point I agree with to an extent. If I hit a perfect drive right up the middle I get pretty upset if my ball finds the only spot on the fairway that has no grass. I consider this ground under repair even if it's not marked. I won't do this if I miss the fairway.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelman
    I had read somewhere a few years ago the PGA said the most cheating occurs in the 10-13 handicap range and in scramble type tournaments. I mean blatant cheating. 10-13 handicap seems to be where guys who can play less target themselves for tournament play. If you can play to say a 5 but have a 10, you have an advantage but technically that is cheating.

    I have seen scramble cheating myself. We played behind a group that turned in a 58 scorecard. Considering how slow they were I could see every shot they played. They shot 6 under. They cheated to win 25 bucks a man. Pretty freaking sad.
    Most charity events are like this. I don't even participate in the scramble at these events. I play stroke play from the tips just to enjoy my round without any of the BS! These are usually at decent courses that I wouldn't normally play and I"m not going to get worked up when a group of geriatric cheaters takes low gross. I just want to enjoy the round that I paid for.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelman
    I had read somewhere a few years ago the PGA said the most cheating occurs in the 10-13 handicap range and in scramble type tournaments. I mean blatant cheating. 10-13 handicap seems to be where guys who can play less target themselves for tournament play. If you can play to say a 5 but have a 10, you have an advantage but technically that is cheating.

    I have seen scramble cheating myself. We played behind a group that turned in a 58 scorecard. Considering how slow they were I could see every shot they played. They shot 6 under. They cheated to win 25 bucks a man. Pretty freaking sad.
    This would be about right in Oz. From my experience, to get down to a 10-13 handicap takes a fair bit of ability, so if you can get down to 13 you can usually get down alot lower. Guys who hang around on 13 but who never go down to 12 or lower to get to A grade are protecting their handicaps, in Australia it's uaually so they can play B grade Pennants, which is definitely a from of cheating in my book.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDB1
    I was going to make a post until I saw this! These are exactly the situations that I will ever allow bending of the rules. If I see my ball land and roll into the rough and it's obvious that it didn't go OB or into a hazard I'll drop without penalty to keep up the pace of play. A foursome looking for balls all day gets old really quick! There are only a few courses where they keep their rough long enough that I'm losing balls just off the fairway so this doesn't come up that often.

    Your second point I agree with to an extent. If I hit a perfect drive right up the middle I get pretty upset if my ball finds the only spot on the fairway that has no grass. I consider this ground under repair even if it's not marked. I won't do this if I miss the fairway.
    I chalk those scenarios up to rub of the green or more specifically, tough sh!t. I lost a ball yesterday that clearly wasn't lost, and had to take my maximum on the hole. Got to the next tee and saw my ball almost pin high (must have hit the cart path 10 times). Still carded a 6 and automatically lost the hole. I was pissed, but the only real option would be to re-tee, and there's no way I'm backing up the course after looking for a few minutes.
    Also, bad lies are a part of golf. My course does a good job of marking ground under repair, but if I'm in a mud patch that isn't marked, I'm playing it down. It could happen to anyone and the most fair way to handle it is to make everyone play it down.
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    The biggest mistakes I see experienced golfers make is in hazards. Lateral hazards and regular hazards. It's amazing how many people have no clue how to drop out of a yellow staked hazard. The 15th hole is a green that has water all along one side of it. This guy we're playing with skulls his sand shot and flies it across the green and into the lake that has a yellow stake. He asks me what the rule is. I tell him he can drop another ball where the last one was and take a penalty or he can go across the lake and drop on a line with the pin and take a penalty. He thinks he can go over to the edge of the lake where his ball went in and drop. I tell him "no, you can only do that if it were a lateral hazard marked with a red stake. You can drop you ball in the sand trap in the approximate area where you hit your last or you can go to the opposite side of the lake on a line with the pin and hit over it". He starts getting all angry and I just tell him "you asked". This is a tournament by the way. He went ahead and dropped the way he wanted to and was disqualified when he told the rules chairman what he did when we were done. He was still pissed and acting as if it were unfair even after the rules chairman explained the rule. The best way to deal with the rules of golf are to treat them as facts instead of penalties. If you hit the wrong ball you get penalized. It's just a fact. It's not personal and nobody is calling it on you. It happened and you need to call it on yourself and accept responsibility for it. Amazing how few people can do that.

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    I chalk those scenarios up to rub of the green or more specifically, tough sh!t. I lost a ball yesterday that clearly wasn't lost, and had to take my maximum on the hole. Got to the next tee and saw my ball almost pin high (must have hit the cart path 10 times). Still carded a 6 and automatically lost the hole. I was pissed, but the only real option would be to re-tee, and there's no way I'm backing up the course after looking for a few minutes.
    Also, bad lies are a part of golf. My course does a good job of marking ground under repair, but if I'm in a mud patch that isn't marked, I'm playing it down. It could happen to anyone and the most fair way to handle it is to make everyone play it down.
    I'm not sure what you mean by your maximum.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    I'm not sure what you mean by your maximum.
    It wasn't a tournament round, so I took my ESC (equitable stroke control) maximum for posting purposes. For me, that's a double bogey. I lost all bets on that hole regardless of what someone shot.
    If I was in a comp, I'd have had to re-tee and been hitting 3.
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  33. #33
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    My wife was a scorer in the Safeway Classic here in Portland and two girls, one that my wife was following, did what you described. It was a water hazard that during normal play is marked as a lateral hazard. She dropped within two club lengths and luckily it was in line with the hole or she would have been DQ'd. The second was also marked as a water hazard and even had a drop zone. Again this hole usually is marked as a lateral but I think the LPGA wanted more risk for going for the green in two and made it a hazard with a drop that was about 130 yards from the green. The second girl was DQ'd. So even some of the pro's and their caddies get these two confused.

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