Bubba Watson: definitive proof??

[Horseballs]

Bubba Watson, proponent of the bomb and gouge, won the past weekend over noted shortknocking luminaries Corey Pavin and Scott Verplank in a playoff. Pavin hits a drive 219 on the first playoff hole, struggling to reach the green from over 200. Meanwhile Bubba cranks a drive 320, flips a sandwedge on for a tap-in. Verplank makes a heroic 10 footer for birdie just to stay in the match, then is outclassed again on the next hole, leaving Watson with an easy 2 putt for the win.
Is it safe to conclude that distance and aggressive play will always prevail against short-knocking cowardice?

[mongrel]

I don't think its short-knocking cowardice as much as small stature and physical ability. If Watson, like Dustin Johnson, had Pavin's brain, he would be practically unbeatable. Maybe when he ages a bit he will be able to play well without his emotional support group. I think the only times Hogan may have shed tears on the course was from actual physical pain.

[Horseballs]

I don't think its short-knocking cowardice as much as small stature and physical ability. If Watson, like Dustin Johnson, had Pavin's brain, he would be practically unbeatable. Maybe when he ages a bit he will be able to play well without his emotional support group. I think the only times Hogan may have shed tears on the course was from actual physical pain.

Hogan is factually a malcontent elitist who has ruined thousands of golf swings with his slice-producing instruction manuals.
Hogan was known to cry when people didn't call him Mr. Hogan or played other manufacturers' clubs. Historical reverence has turned that sourpuss into an icon.

[SoonerBS]

Bubba Watson, proponent of the bomb and gouge, won the past weekend over noted shortknocking luminaries Corey Pavin and Scott Verplank in a playoff. Pavin hits a drive 219 on the first playoff hole, struggling to reach the green from over 200. Meanwhile Bubba cranks a drive 320, flips a sandwedge on for a tap-in. Verplank makes a heroic 10 footer for birdie just to stay in the match, then is outclassed again on the next hole, leaving Watson with an easy 2 putt for the win.
Is it safe to conclude that distance and aggressive play will always prevail against short-knocking cowardice?

Absolutely! Thanks for bringing it up. And, while we are on the subject, let's also account for the fact that laying up on par 5s does not win tournaments and should not be an acceptable doctrine on GR . . . . . .

[golfaholic]

Absolutely! Thanks for bringing it up. And, while we are on the subject, let's also account for the fact that laying up on par 5s does not win tournaments and should not be an acceptable doctrine on GR . . . . . .

Zach Johnson. Masters. Ring a bell?

[SoonerBS]

Zach Johnson. Masters. Ring a bell?

Zach Johnson is a bible-thumping, no emotion, sod-hacker who happens to be Pingman's wet dream. You sure you want to use him as an example?

[poe4soul]

Zach Johnson is a bible-thumping, no emotion, sod-hacker who happens to be Pingman's wet dream. You sure you want to use him as an example?

Seriously? Are you slow? He did use him as an example and it is a good one. Here's another, little Timmy Clark. Both have an average driving distance of about 280. There are many ways to get it done on the course but when a bomber is hitting fairways and has a good putting day they are hard to beat. The Johnson's/clark's have to be patient to win.

[golfaholic]

Seriously? Are you slow? He did use him as an example and it is a good one. Here's another, little Timmy Clark. Both have an average driving distance of about 280. There are many ways to get it done on the course but when a bomber is hitting fairways and has a good putting day they are hard to beat. The Johnson's/clark's have to be patient to win.

Not to mention Johnson laid up on every single Par 5, and still won.

[SoonerBS]

Did you guys see Phil Mickelson laying up on par 5s in the Masters? Is that something Tiger Woods has done in his past Major wins? How many majors do Clark and Johnson have COMBINED in comparison to these two "Bomb and Gouge" type players?

OK, I rest my case.

[golfaholic]

Did you guys see Phil Mickelson laying up on par 5s in the Masters? Is that something Tiger Woods has done in his past Major wins? How many majors do Clark and Johnson have COMBINED in comparison to these two "Bomb and Gouge" type players?

OK, I rest my case.

You said it dosen't win tournaments. I proved you wrong, with the name of just one player, who laid up on every single par 5 of the tournament. I'll agree that this type of safe golf dosen't win as much, but there are players who can make it work.

Take your loss, flamer.

[daveperkins]

Hogan is factually a malcontent elitist who has ruined thousands of golf swings with his slice-producing instruction manuals.
Hogan was known to cry when people didn't call him Mr. Hogan or played other manufacturers' clubs. Historical reverence has turned that sourpuss into an icon.

My 90 yr old father in law told me another story today. Another "Hogan is an arse" story.

It seems, a few decades back, that Ram-swingin' hard-hittin' crew cut South African lad Gary Player thought he'd ask the great Hogan for some swing tips. Call went through, Hogan's on the other end hearing Player ask him for evaluation.

Hogan says "what irons you hittin'?"

Player "Ram"

Hogan "Call them."

[daveperkins]

Zach Johnson is a bible-thumping, no emotion, sod-hacker who happens to be Pingman's wet dream. You sure you want to use him as an example?

He's also a strong grippin', hair losin', tack and stiltin' hook waitin' to happen. With a zillion pairs of footjoys.

[mr natural]

[QUOTE=Horseballs]Bubba Watson, proponent of the bomb and gouge, won the past weekend over noted shortknocking luminaries Corey Pavin and Scott Verplank in a playoff. Pavin hits a drive 219 on the first playoff hole, struggling to reach the green from over 200. Meanwhile Bubba cranks a drive 320, flips a sandwedge on for a tap-in. Verplank makes a heroic 10 footer for birdie just to stay in the match, then is outclassed again on the next hole, leaving Watson with an easy 2 putt for the win.
Is it safe to conclude that distance and aggressive play will always prevail against short-knocking cowardice?[/QUOTE]
It is absolutely safe to make this conclusion. It is very basic logic which for some reason seems to be lost on some of the more simple minded members of this board. If you are putting for eagles on par 5s instead of birdies, and are hitting wedges into greens instead of 3 woods, it makes perfect sense that you will shoot lower scores. The naysayers can pull as many Zach Johnsons and Tim Clarks out of their asses as they want, but as Sooner has pointed out for every shortknocker who has fluked one major there is a long bomber who has won many.

[Pky6471]

Bubba is a good player who proves that he can hit a long ball,.... BUT... IMO I don't think he would win too many tourneys... He works a ball TOO MUCH, Yes he has the ability to do that but use that skill ONLY when he needs to then he would win more

[poe4soul]

Bubba is a good player who proves that he can hit a long ball,.... BUT... IMO I don't think he would win too many tourneys... He works a ball TOO MUCH, Yes he has the ability to do that but use that skill ONLY when he needs to then he would win more

In the words of Dottie Pepper "I don't think bubba thinks in straight lines." after hitting a forty yard hook in to an unobstructed green that she described the shot as "he's starting this one left of Tampa." He's an ADHD golfer if I've seen one but phil is kinda that way. If the shot is easy he's usually f'ing it up. If it's difficult he has a better chance of sticking it. Lack of concentration.

[lorenzoinoc]

I've really wanted to like Bubba. That home-made swing and it's marrionettish jumps and spasms combined with the distance it produces is more interesting than most of what you see on tour. But the crying kind of killed it for me and his wife needs to get her own life.

[SoonerBS]

You said it dosen't win tournaments. I proved you wrong, with the name of just one player, who laid up on every single par 5 of the tournament. I'll agree that this type of safe golf dosen't win as much, but there are players who can make it work.

Take your loss, flamer.

Why should we confuse the issue with facts? This is GR after all . . . . .

[daveperkins]

I've really wanted to like Bubba. That home-made swing and it's marrionettish jumps and spasms combined with the distance it produces is more interesting than most of what you see on tour. But the crying kind of killed it for me and his wife needs to get her own life.

That chicken wing is the most severe distension in the golf world. And he seems to chicken-wing (if I may use it as an intransitive verb) on both gigantic hooks and enormous slices. He's an equal opportunity chicken-winger. But what a 'pure feel' short game. No two swings or strokes are alike in his short game, it's all feel. You watch and expect him to chunk or skull one but he gets them all close.

Bubba is six foot three. His wife MUST be a six footer. She's eye level with him, probably wearing some corkers but not too big or she'd be taller than him.

He wants in the Ryder Cup really bad. But he was almost beaten by the coach. :-) My high school golf coach was a good player, and he signed my yearbook "you never could beat me". I hated that man.

oh, and hasn't Bubba lost about thirty pounds? And he hasn't added any muscle. He looks like he's got a tapeworm.

[Not a hacker]

I've really wanted to like Bubba. That home-made swing and it's marrionettish jumps and spasms combined with the distance it produces is more interesting than most of what you see on tour. But the crying kind of killed it for me and his wife needs to get her own life.

Crying in public over a golf tournament is definitely a disservice to the name 'Bubba'. On the subject of being a sook to a worldwide audience, I didn't actually see it, how would you rate it? Was it Sneddekeresque, or did he really blubber up to Len Mattiace levels. Actually I remember Monty bawling on his wife's shoulder after losing a US open to Els on the 72nd hole a few years back. She has since ditched him, obviously couldn't live with the shame of being married to a fairy.

[SoonerBS]

Crying in public over a golf tournament is definitely a disservice to the name 'Bubba'. On the subject of being a sook to a worldwide audience, I didn't actually see it, how would you rate it? Was it Sneddekeresque, or did he really blubber up to Len Mattiace levels. Actually I remember Monty bawling on his wife's shoulder after losing a US open to Els on the 72nd hole a few years back. She has since ditched him, obviously couldn't live with the shame of being married to a fairy.

POD right here . . . . . .

[lorenzoinoc]

Crying in public over a golf tournament is definitely a disservice to the name 'Bubba'. On the subject of being a sook to a worldwide audience, I didn't actually see it, how would you rate it? Was it Sneddekeresque, or did he really blubber up to Len Mattiace levels. Actually I remember Monty bawling on his wife's shoulder after losing a US open to Els on the 72nd hole a few years back. She has since ditched him, obviously couldn't live with the shame of being married to a fairy.

I'd describe it as talking normally punctuated at times by blubbering and tears. So not off the charts but uncomfortable to watch. He did mention his dad was fighting cancer so I'm not being critical, I just didn't really want to see it. And my thresshold for cringing had already been met as a result of the airtime his stalker/wife was getting.

Yeah, Dave, it's pretty amazing those moves could make the PGA tour, no less win a tournament. I'm guessing the chicken wing comes from a strong grip, but maybe he just likes chicken.

[Not a hacker]

I'd describe it as talking normally punctuated at times by blubbering and tears. So not off the charts but uncomfortable to watch. He did mention his dad was fighting cancer so I'm not being critical, I just didn't really want to see it. And my thresshold for cringing had already been met as a result of the airtime his stalker/wife was getting.

Yeah, Dave, it's pretty amazing those moves could make the PGA tour, no less win a tournament. I'm guessing the chicken wing comes from a strong grip, but maybe he just likes chicken.

I know what you mean. Seeing grown men cry for no good reason is always uncomfortable to watch.

I've never noticed Bubba chicken winging it. Westwood is also an exponent of the chicken wing and he's made it work for him. Definitely not adviseable though.

[Home-slicer]

I'd describe it as talking normally punctuated at times by blubbering and tears. So not off the charts but uncomfortable to watch. He did mention his dad was fighting cancer so I'm not being critical, I just didn't really want to see it. And my thresshold for cringing had already been met as a result of the airtime his stalker/wife was getting.

Yeah, Dave, it's pretty amazing those moves could make the PGA tour, no less win a tournament. I'm guessing the chicken wing comes from a strong grip, but maybe he just likes chicken.

Yeah, I was ready to call him a ****, then he mentions the cancer thing. So not only did he ruin his win by crying, he ruined the fun we could have had at his expense by legitimizing the crying.

[f5joe]

I enjoyed Bubba being Bubba. The crying came naturally ...... he seems "real" to me rather than aloof. Lots of ways to look at it.

But, I love his way of playing. Crash and bang. I'm rooting for him to get on the Ryder Cup. That's where you need the emotion.

[mongrel]

I enjoyed Bubba being Bubba. The crying came naturally ...... he seems "real" to me rather than aloof. Lots of ways to look at it.

But, I love his way of playing. Crash and bang. I'm rooting for him to get on the Ryder Cup. That's where you need the emotion.

He'd be best in a scramble. He'll get creamed in match play by some little hobbit with hybrids, yellow balls and a vaulting pole putter like Tim Clark. The guy's a mess in the head--cries when he wins and laughs when he loses.

[daveperkins]

I know what you mean. Seeing grown men cry for no good reason is always uncomfortable to watch.

I've never noticed Bubba chicken winging it. Westwood is also an exponent of the chicken wing and he's made it work for him. Definitely not adviseable though.

You didn't see the chicken wing on that playoff tee shot on 16, the par 3? Geez. I think he was playing a 40 yard hook with an 8 iron.. he's all about the clubface, where it is before impact, where it is after impact, holding it open, pushing it closed.. the elbows reflect MASSIVE shot steering.. but hey, if it works..

[lorenzoinoc]

He'd be best in a scramble. He'll get creamed in match play by some little hobbit with hybrids, yellow balls and a vaulting pole putter like Tim Clark. The guy's a mess in the head--cries when he wins and laughs when he loses.

Yes. He doesn 't seem to have the same mental illness Rory Sabbatini
has, but they both are about the same short distance from a breakdown and come with wives/handlers that may already have power of attorney and Thorazine syringes in their handbags.

[poe4soul]

Bubba Watson, proponent of the bomb and gouge, won the past weekend over noted shortknocking luminaries Corey Pavin and Scott Verplank in a playoff. Pavin hits a drive 219 on the first playoff hole, struggling to reach the green from over 200. Meanwhile Bubba cranks a drive 320, flips a sandwedge on for a tap-in. Verplank makes a heroic 10 footer for birdie just to stay in the match, then is outclassed again on the next hole, leaving Watson with an easy 2 putt for the win.
Is it safe to conclude that distance and aggressive play will always prevail against short-knocking cowardice?

I just watched the end of the tournament last night. The only thing I took away from it is Pavin is a complete idiot. What the hell was he thinking taking a 3w off the tee against two long hitters? He hit it all of 220 yards. What the fukc? That was after watching Watson bombed a drive 400 yards just moments before. You see some guys that want to hit the first approach shot to apply pressure but bubba could have hit a 6 iron further than pavin hit his drive(3w). With this logic he should have wedged to 80 yards so he could have a full sand wedge into the hole. Major idiot play of the year.

I never watch the awards post round speech so I can't comment on Watson's blubbering but it sounds like he took a page out of strikers play book.

[lorenzoinoc]

I just watched the end of the tournament last night. The only thing I took away from it is Pavin is a complete idiot. What the hell was he thinking taking a 3w off the tee against to long hitters? He hit it all of 220 yards. What the fukc? That was after watching Watson bombed a drive 400 yards just moments before. You see some guys that want to hit the first approach shot to apply pressure but bubba could have hit a 6 iron further than pavin hit his drive(3w). With this logic he should have wedged to 80 yards so he could have a full sand wedge into the hole. Major idiot play of the year.

I never watch the awards post round speech so I can't comment on Watson's blubbering but it sounds like he took a page out of strikers play book.

The truly ironic thing about Pavin's short driving is that it's also erratic and wild. I once saw him hit one OB right on the 5th hole at Riv. It's the skankiest pro shot I ever saw, either in person or on tv. It made TC Chen's masterpiece look like Michael Jordan dunking.

So the only way Pavin's 3 wood made sense was if he knew he was beyond hope at that point and didn't want to dillute the value of his Open wins by skanking a 240 yard drive in a play-off.

[poe4soul]

The truly ironic thing about Pavin's short driving is that it's also erratic and wild. I once saw him hit one OB right on the 5th hole at Riv. It's the skankiest pro shot I ever saw, either in person or on tv. It made TC Chen's masterpiece look like Michael Jordan dunking.

So the only way Pavin's 3 wood made sense was if he knew he was beyond hope at that point and didn't want to dillute the value of his Open wins by skanking a 240 yard drive in a play-off.

So your saying his 3w plan was completely about saving face? Still an idiot. He should have pulled the Bushwood CC "my elbow, I think it's broken" routine. With strokes of genius like this there's no chance the lady he caddied for on the Open Challenge had a chance of breaking 100 with him on her bag.

[Larryrsf]

Absolutely! Thanks for bringing it up. And, while we are on the subject, let's also account for the fact that laying up on par 5s does not win tournaments and should not be an acceptable doctrine on GR . . . . . .

Whew! Pavin could be Watson's father! Lets see how or even whether Bubba is even playing championship level golf when he gets to Pavin's age. There are many, many, who swing that hard and fail to last the distance. Their body lets them down.

Larry

[lorenzoinoc]

So your saying his 3w plan was completely about saving face? Still an idiot. He should have pulled the Bushwood CC "my elbow, I think it's broken" routine. With strokes of genius like this there's no chance the lady he caddied for on the Open Challenge had a chance of breaking 100 with him on her bag.

True, I think all of us here could have come up with something better.

[clmax]

Bubba is a good player who proves that he can hit a long ball,.... BUT... IMO I don't think he would win too many tourneys... He works a ball TOO MUCH, Yes he has the ability to do that but use that skill ONLY when he needs to then he would win more

I followed him some at the Shell Houston Open. "Works the ball" is really an understatement. He hits HUGE slices and hooks. He does it quite well too. I was amazed watching him.

He hits so much hook/slice that he aims right at people in the gallery around the tee box. One hole he was aiming dead at me with a long iron. There were trees behind me. He hits a huge hook that flies over me and the trees and as far or farther than the others in the group who hit 3 woods.

Fun to watch.

[Larryrsf]

[QUOTE=mr natural]

Bubba Watson, proponent of the bomb and gouge, won the past weekend over noted shortknocking luminaries Corey Pavin and Scott Verplank in a playoff. Pavin hits a drive 219 on the first playoff hole, struggling to reach the green from over 200. Meanwhile Bubba cranks a drive 320, flips a sandwedge on for a tap-in. Verplank makes a heroic 10 footer for birdie just to stay in the match, then is outclassed again on the next hole, leaving Watson with an easy 2 putt for the win.
Is it safe to conclude that distance and aggressive play will always prevail against short-knocking cowardice?[/QUOTE]
It is absolutely safe to make this conclusion. It is very basic logic which for some reason seems to be lost on some of the more simple minded members of this board. If you are putting for eagles on par 5s instead of birdies, and are hitting wedges into greens instead of 3 woods, it makes perfect sense that you will shoot lower scores. The naysayers can pull as many Zach Johnsons and Tim Clarks out of their asses as they want, but as Sooner has pointed out for every shortknocker who has fluked one major there is a long bomber who has won many.

Total nonsense. Just look at the guys who survive on the Champion's Tour. And many will say that keeping that ticket is MUCH harder than maintaining a tour pro ticket. The ENTIRE WORLD of 50+ year old golfers is desperate to play on that tour. MOST touring pros get on the Champion's tour when they turn 50 and fail to stay eligible after the first year. Hale Irwin got on and stayed on --and remains the all-time winnings champion-- dating back to when they won only a few hundred $k. He was NOT long off the tee, but the academic All-American played smart--like Corey Pavin does. In fact no "long bombers" survived long on the Champion's Tour.

Larry

[Horseballs]

Whew! Pavin could be Watson's father! Lets see how or even whether Bubba is even playing championship level golf when he gets to Pavin's age. There are many, many, who swing that hard and fail to last the distance. Their body lets them down.

Larry

Wrong. The Pavin style of play is gone forever. That weakling is lucky to have played his prime years in an era of mediocrity. Long hitters (like Nicklaus, Palmer) dominated before the silly Pavin/Curtis Strange era, and they are dominating again. They will forever. Golf has no use for short-knocking layup artists. This was played out in stunning detail this weekend. Even Tim Clark hit a manly drive on 18 to win The Players. It went against his cowardly nature, but results speak for themselves.

[CPS]

That's the thing about laying up, if you miss the lay up then you are in big trouble. If you miss a bomb at least you can punch out and still have an approach (of course OB plays into the decision). It seems to me just as many controlled 3W tee shots go wrong, certainly that's how I feel. You are already over-thinking when you tell yourself to have a nice soft controlled tee shot. You break any rhythm you had because you are changing tempo and "attempting" to sissy the ball in the fairway (also you are obviously scared and have no confidence). Just as much can go wrong with that kind of approach, and it does.

[mongrel]

Wrong. The Pavin style of play is gone forever. That weakling is lucky to have played his prime years in an era of mediocrity. Long hitters (like Nicklaus, Palmer) dominated before the silly Pavin/Curtis Strange era, and they are dominating again. They will forever. Golf has no use for short-knocking layup artists. This was played out in stunning detail this weekend. Even Tim Clark hit a manly drive on 18 to win The Players. It went against his cowardly nature, but results speak for themselves.

How did Gary Player manage to steal those nine majors away from bombers like Palmer and Nicklaus? Pavin is 20 yards longer almost through the bag than Player ever was.

[Horseballs]

[QUOTE=Larryrsf]

Total nonsense. Just look at the guys who survive on the Champion's Tour. And many will say that keeping that ticket is MUCH harder than maintaining a tour pro ticket. The ENTIRE WORLD of 50+ year old golfers is desperate to play on that tour. MOST touring pros get on the Champion's tour when they turn 50 and fail to stay eligible after the first year. Hale Irwin got on and stayed on --and remains the all-time winnings champion-- dating back to when they won only a few hundred $k. He was NOT long off the tee, but the academic All-American played smart--like Corey Pavin does. In fact no "long bombers" survived long on the Champion's Tour.

Larry

Freddy Couples (a long hitter) is killing it on the Geritol Tour.
If Hal Irwin had any courage, he would have stuck it out on the Men's Tour instead of beating up on grandpa. He gets no respect from me or 99% of the other people with integrity. I could absolutely destroy my father (a few years your junior) at any athletic endeavor, but I prefer to play against people of my own skill level. Where is the honor in beating up bunch of old men? This is exactly why I defend you against Alan.

[lorenzoinoc]

Short hitters are about to disappear from the PGA ranks faster than Steve Garvey at a paternity hearing. The next wave of touring pros approaching from the horizon have smarts, length, short game and guts.

[Horseballs]

How did Gary Player manage to steal those nine majors away from bombers like Palmer and Nicklaus? Pavin is 20 yards longer almost through the bag than Player ever was.

Player was much longer (relative to their eras) than Pavin. You always hear about Player's sky high 9 iron from 150 over a tree at Oakmont to secure his US Open win. Pavin would have had to lay that up to 130, then pray he could fly his 4 wood on the green.

[lorenzoinoc]

Player was much longer (relative to their eras) than Pavin. You always hear about Player's sky high 9 iron from 150 over a tree at Oakmont to secure his US Open win. Pavin would have had to lay that up to 130, then pray he could fly his 4 wood on the green.

And then hopes he makes the putt with his 5 iron.

[Jeff_h]

And then hopes he makes the putt with his 5 iron.

But only after he bumps and runs up to a foot with his lob wedge.

[Mward2002]

Bubba crying wasn't that big of a deal to me. He's choked 4 or 5 other possible wins away so it had to be eating him up inside. He was probably holding back the laughter of his playoff partners and their chopper like distance and club selection and couldn't hold it any longer, so just hid it via crying.

I'd give him a pass for this one and see how he is if he wins again.

[mongrel]

Player was much longer (relative to their eras) than Pavin. You always hear about Player's sky high 9 iron from 150 over a tree at Oakmont to secure his US Open win. Pavin would have had to lay that up to 130, then pray he could fly his 4 wood on the green.

Player won his only U.S. Open in 1965 played at Bellerive C.C. outside St. Louis. I watched Player at tournaments beginning in the early '60's to one of the last tournaments I've been to in 1996. In the early and mid '60's, Player would be hitting at least a 6 for a level 150 yard approach and a 5 from 155-165. Three and four woods were his typical weapons for 175-200 yarders on the level with no wind effecting shots. Off the tee Palmer would get him by 30-50 yards and Nicklaus by 50-80. Player got longer over the years as technology improved shafts, heads and balls. I marshalled a Hogan mini-tour event in '83. On the final round, I was a tee marshall on a 173 downhill par 3. The only players to hit irons longer than 7 irons were Gary Player and Fred Funk who each hit 5 iron. Even old George Archer with both arms and wrists in wraps hit 7 iron. Fred Funk's best drive of the tournament was, carry plus roll, 250 yards per his caddie. Hell, in '83 I could average at least 260 with my little Taylor 9* Pittsburgh Persimmon. The two long knockers in that field were rookies Bob Tway and Mark Weibe who both hit it a ton. Winner was Russ Cochrane who mostly hit 1 iron off the 4 and 5 tees.

[alangbaker]

Whew! Pavin could be Watson's father! Lets see how or even whether Bubba is even playing championship level golf when he gets to Pavin's age. There are many, many, who swing that hard and fail to last the distance. Their body lets them down.

You've kind of changed your claim on distance, haven't you?

[alangbaker]

[QUOTE=Larryrsf]

Total nonsense. Just look at the guys who survive on the Champion's Tour. And many will say that keeping that ticket is MUCH harder than maintaining a tour pro ticket.

bull****.

The ENTIRE WORLD of 50+ year old golfers is desperate to play on that tour.

And... The ENTIRE WORLD has no chance of doing so.

MOST touring pros get on the Champion's tour when they turn 50 and fail to stay eligible after the first year.

Proof? Evidence? Something more than your bull**** claims? Anything?

Hale Irwin got on and stayed on --and remains the all-time winnings champion-- dating back to when they won only a few hundred $k. He was NOT long off the tee, but the academic All-American played smart--like Corey Pavin does. In fact no "long bombers" survived long on the Champion's Tour.

You mean other than Tom Purtzer, who's number 3 in driving distance and only 5 yards shorter than Freddie Couples; he's only been out there for 9 years...

Then there's the other reason that "long bombers" don't survive long on the Champion's Tour: they're too busy still playing and finishing well on the Real Tour.

Oh, and let's not forget: Irwin is 3rd this year in driving accuracy and 30th on the money list. The money list is led by Fred Couple, who is first in driving DISTANCE, but only 54th in driving accuracy.

So which is more important again?

[lorenzoinoc]

Yeah, I was ready to call him a ****, then he mentions the cancer thing. So not only did he ruin his win by crying, he ruined the fun we could have had at his expense by legitimizing the crying.

This is a keen, GR consistent observation that should not be overlooked. What a killjoy he is.

[daveperkins]

I'm not playing Corey for money, even though I can outdrive the little guy by sixty yards.

That old 1984 Bullseye would just take my cash and call me fat.

[Horseballs]

Player won his only U.S. Open in 1965 played at Bellerive C.C. outside St. Louis. I watched Player at tournaments beginning in the early '60's to one of the last tournaments I've been to in 1996. In the early and mid '60's, Player would be hitting at least a 6 for a level 150 yard approach and a 5 from 155-165. Three and four woods were his typical weapons for 175-200 yarders on the level with no wind effecting shots. Off the tee Palmer would get him by 30-50 yards and Nicklaus by 50-80. Player got longer over the years as technology improved shafts, heads and balls. I marshalled a Hogan mini-tour event in '83. On the final round, I was a tee marshall on a 173 downhill par 3. The only players to hit irons longer than 7 irons were Gary Player and Fred Funk who each hit 5 iron. Even old George Archer with both arms and wrists in wraps hit 7 iron. Fred Funk's best drive of the tournament was, carry plus roll, 250 yards per his caddie. Hell, in '83 I could average at least 260 with my little Taylor 9* Pittsburgh Persimmon. The two long knockers in that field were rookies Bob Tway and Mark Weibe who both hit it a ton. Winner was Russ Cochrane who mostly hit 1 iron off the 4 and 5 tees.

Right you are. It was the 1972 PGA Championship at Oakland Hills where he hit the sky high 9 iron from 150. A 9 iron from 150 with the old ball shows that Player was long. Pavin has to take a head cover off something to hit it 150.

[mongrel]

The truly ironic thing about Pavin's short driving is that it's also erratic and wild. I once saw him hit one OB right on the 5th hole at Riv. It's the skankiest pro shot I ever saw, either in person or on tv. It made TC Chen's masterpiece look like Michael Jordan dunking.

So the only way Pavin's 3 wood made sense was if he knew he was beyond hope at that point and didn't want to dillute the value of his Open wins by skanking a 240 yard drive in a play-off.

Was that the tournament where, after "Twin Chip" Chen's double hit, Jack Renner was in with a one shot lead and Aoki holed at 120 yard wedge to beat him by a shot? Somewhere in CA?

[lorenzoinoc]

Was that the tournament where, after "Twin Chip" Chen's double hit, Jack Renner was in with a one shot lead and Aoki holed at 120 yard wedge to beat him by a shot? Somewhere in CA?

It was long before I played golf, so I've only seen it in documentary form. But considering he was in the lead at a U.S. Open, it belongs on the list of all-time choke shots. The USGA seems to use it as the model for what they hope to achieve in one of their sad, misguided, uninteresting, out of touch tournaments. When it happened, apparently most of the top USGA officials climaxed in unison.

[daveperkins]

I followed him some at the Shell Houston Open. "Works the ball" is really an understatement. He hits HUGE slices and hooks. He does it quite well too. I was amazed watching him.

He hits so much hook/slice that he aims right at people in the gallery around the tee box. One hole he was aiming dead at me with a long iron. There were trees behind me. He hits a huge hook that flies over me and the trees and as far or farther than the others in the group who hit 3 woods.

Fun to watch.

Hardhat territory. :-)

[poe4soul]

Hardhat territory. :-)

More like get behind a big slow guy with bad knees who's wearing a hardhat.

[daveperkins]

More like get behind a big slow guy with bad knees who's wearing a hardhat.

Even I"m not big enough to protect anyone from a Bubba chicken wing hook.. he can hit it AROUND me, making use of the inherent gravitational force of my body.

[Not a hacker]

That's the thing about laying up, if you miss the lay up then you are in big trouble. If you miss a bomb at least you can punch out and still have an approach (of course OB plays into the decision). It seems to me just as many controlled 3W tee shots go wrong, certainly that's how I feel. You are already over-thinking when you tell yourself to have a nice soft controlled tee shot. You break any rhythm you had because you are changing tempo and "attempting" to sissy the ball in the fairway (also you are obviously scared and have no confidence). Just as much can go wrong with that kind of approach, and it does.

I totally agree. The only time you should be thinking of hitting less than drivwer off the tee is if the prime landing location is shorter than the driver will carry to. Hitting a 3 iron on a par 4 is not playing safely, it just brings not being able to get home in two into the equation if you duff it. I duff irons off the tee as often as I duff drivers, at least with a duffed driver I am still far enough down to be able to get home in 2 if I have a clear shot.

[famousdavis]

Crying in public over a golf tournament is definitely a disservice to the name 'Bubba'. On the subject of being a sook to a worldwide audience, I didn't actually see it, how would you rate it? Was it Sneddekeresque, or did he really blubber up to Len Mattiace levels. Actually I remember Monty bawling on his wife's shoulder after losing a US open to Els on the 72nd hole a few years back. She has since ditched him, obviously couldn't live with the shame of being married to a fairy.

I saw the Bubba interview and his crying was almost identical to win Fred Couples won a few years back and couldn't talk. It doesn't bother me but it kind of leaves the announcers with nothing to say. The tournament just kind of ended very quietly and you didn't know whether to be happy or feel numb. He mentioned that his dad had cancer so the crying is understandable. If you can't help it what can you do?

I can't think of any reason Pavin would hit a 3 wood other than he had the intention of hitting an amazing hybrid shot close to the hole and wowing the crowd. Maybe he was trying to make a point about short hitters winning against long hitters? Either way it didn't work. Maybe he was going to bring out the Cleveland VAS 4 wood and try hitting a shot like he did at the US Open. I still can't believe he didn't hit driver. The gutty little bruin looked more like an itsy bitsy spider.

[Not a hacker]

I saw the Bubba interview and his crying was almost identical to win Fred Couples won a few years back and couldn't talk. It doesn't bother me but it kind of leaves the announcers with nothing to say. The tournament just kind of ended very quietly and you didn't know whether to be happy or feel numb. He mentioned that his dad had cancer so the crying is understandable. If you can't help it what can you do?

I can't think of any reason Pavin would hit a 3 wood other than he had the intention of hitting an amazing hybrid shot close to the hole and wowing the crowd. Maybe he was trying to make a point about short hitters winning against long hitters? Either way it didn't work. Maybe he was going to bring out the Cleveland VAS 4 wood and try hitting a shot like he did at the US Open. I still can't believe he didn't hit driver. The gutty little bruin looked more like an itsy bitsy spider.

Crying when you win is almost forgiveable, tears of joy are understandable. At least he didn't blubber away when he lost like Sneddeker, Mattiace and Monty.

[KennyLee]

.

Oh, and let's not forget: Irwin is 3rd this year in driving accuracy and 30th on the money list. The money list is led by Fred Couple, who is first in driving DISTANCE, but only 54th in driving accuracy.

So which is more important again?

The rough on the Champions Tour is nowhere as severe as it is on the PGA Tour, so accuracy or better yet, a lack of accuracy is not punished as it is on the PGA Tour, the same holds true for the LPGA Tour, IMO.

[mr natural]

Why the fuk is my name attached to quotes of posts made by Larry? I'm not some deluded 65 year old feeb who tries to convince himself that it's ok to be a shortknocker faggott by telling us what shortknocker faggotts like Pavin and Irwin can do adnauseum.

Larry, age is no excuse for being a short hitter. Being a fagg with no nuts is the real reason you get outhit by your wife.

And you can quote me on that.

[Pky6471]

I'm not playing Corey for money, even though I can outdrive the little guy by sixty yards.

That old 1984 Bullseye would just take my cash and call me fat.

big Dave... he could call you worse than that

[daveperkins]

big Dave... he could call you worse than that

I leave that work to the eminently capable luminaries of GR... Corey is too nice a guy. :-)

[Horseballs]

Corey is too nice a guy. :-)

He sure is. He spotted Bubba Watson a shot on the first playoff hole. What a guy!
I hope he summons up that bulldog personality for the Ryder Cup.

[Larryrsf]

The rough on the Champions Tour is nowhere as severe as it is on the PGA Tour, so accuracy or better yet, a lack of accuracy is not punished as it is on the PGA Tour, the same holds true for the LPGA Tour, IMO.

Youth and the ability to roll in long putts. The Champion's Tour proves again and again that golfers lose the ability to putt through their 50's and 60's. Player, Trevino, Snead, Hogan, Nicklaus, and dozens of others faded ONLY because they started missing too many putts. They remained competitive from tee to green. When you ask them, they will tell you that it is all about putting--and putting seems to be 100% related to age. Remember when Snead was desperate to find a method to overcome "yips" and invented the croquet style, won with that, and then went to the legal "side-saddle" method when they outlawed croquet style. Late in his tournament career, Hogan reportedly was up all night in his hotel room practicing his putting for the next day. Young guys who could just casually knock long putts in drove them crazy!

Larry

[Larryrsf]

Why the fuk is my name attached to quotes of posts made by Larry? I'm not some deluded 65 year old feeb who tries to convince himself that it's ok to be a shortknocker faggott by telling us what shortknocker faggotts like Pavin and Irwin can do adnauseum.

Larry, age is no excuse for being a short hitter. Being a fagg with no nuts is the real reason you get outhit by your wife.

And you can quote me on that.

Thanks a lot. Please report your driver clubhead speed when you pass 65.

Larry

[mr natural]

Youth and the ability to roll in long putts. The Champion's Tour proves again and again that golfers lose the ability to putt through their 50's and 60's. Player, Trevino, Snead, Hogan, Nicklaus, and dozens of others faded ONLY because they started missing too many putts. They remained competitive from tee to green. When you ask them, they will tell you that it is all about putting--and putting seems to be 100% related to age. Remember when Snead was desperate to find a method to overcome "yips" and invented the croquet style, won with that, and then went to the legal "side-saddle" method when they outlawed croquet style. Late in his tournament career, Hogan reportedly was up all night in his hotel room practicing his putting for the next day. Young guys who could just casually knock long putts in drove them crazy!

Larry

Age didn't stop guys like Hogan and Snead from sinking putts. It is just the fact that as technology allowed for the greens to get quicker, these imposters were shown for the sod lacking hackers they always were.

[mr natural]

Thanks a lot. Please report your driver clubhead speed when you pass 65.

Larry

You'll just be an annoying memory by the time I get to 65.

[mongrel]

Age didn't stop guys like Hogan and Snead from sinking putts. It is just the fact that as technology allowed for the greens to get quicker, these imposters were shown for the sod lacking hackers they always were.

Technology had nothing to do with the speed of greens, only some yo invented a device to measure it so people had numbers to associate with quickness. My father taught me how to cut and roll a green on our farm where he had one built in 1955-- a small redan affair with subtle contours with bent grass. When I was 11-12, he had me double cut it and roll it so that it putted every bit as slick as any at Augusta National on 4th round Sunday. His green mower was a heavy mother from the late '40's and the roller was a water-filled drum affair I pushed around with a handle. Greens' speed has always been orchestrated by agreement with the course management and whatever tour is holding the event. And, given modern equipment that technology HAS enabled, all your "sold lacking (sic) hackers" would probably beat the knickers off the current crew (a majority)of Nancy boy whiners comprising the PGA tour.

[KennyLee]

Technology had nothing to do with the speed of greens, only some yo invented a device to measure it so people had numbers to associate with quickness. My father taught me how to cut and roll a green on our farm where he had one built in 1955-- a small redan affair with subtle contours with bent grass. When I was 11-12, he had me double cut it and roll it so that it putted every bit as slick as any at Augusta National on 4th round Sunday. His green mower was a heavy mother from the late '40's and the roller was a water-filled drum affair I pushed around with a handle. Greens' speed has always been orchestrated by agreement with the course management and whatever tour is holding the event. And, given modern equipment that technology HAS enabled, all your "sold lacking (sic) hackers" would probably beat the knickers off the current crew (a majority)of Nancy boy whiners comprising the PGA tour.

I mostly agree mongrel and one other fact that 'mr. natural' misses is that the greens today roll more true than in the past, so it's a trade-off. The greens may be faster today, week to week but they also roll truer than in the past.

[aliikane]

i think corey pavin will look back at that tee shot as a mental error. he is very accurate and should of hit a driver. odds of getting a 200+ yard shot close compared to a flip wedge is no comparison. power is a plus but not on all courses.

bubba watson is the real deal. he shapes shots around the golf course more than anyone. he is unorthodox and made his swing work. just cause you have the perfect golf swing doesn't mean you hit perfect shots. i see guys with the most hack looking golf swings beat guys with perfect golf swings.