The Official GR MMA thread

[FreakOfNature]

I know there's more than a few MMA fans on here, so I thought we needed a thread for this.

Especially in light of last night's "astounding" defeat of IBA Heavyweight Champ James "Lights Out" Toney at the hands of 47 year old MMA veteran Randy "The Natural" Couture, in which Toney threw and landed exactly ZERO punches before being taken to the ground and choked into submission by one of the most elementary MMA submission holds - the dreaded and terrifying ARM TRIANGLE CHOKE.

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! He hounded and dissed Dana White for months to get this fight, thinking he was going to knock out one of the UFC's heavyweights and show the MMA world how legit boxing is.

How'd that work out for ya, "Lights Out"?

Loved his post-match comments with Joe Rogan about his ground game - "There's nothing wrong with my ground game"... LOL! That's like saying there's nothing wrong with your car - when you don't even own a car.

That fight was so much awesome.

BJ Penn looked so uninterested in actually fighting... Edgar outclassed him in just about every way, which is something you just don't expect to see when BJ's fighting at 155. Pretty much a "passing the torch" type of match. Hard to watch, but great to see. I expect BJ will retire pretty soon.

Lauzon had the most impressive performance of the night IMO, absolutely OWNED Gabe Ruediger. Pure dominance.



FON

[Kiwi Player]

James Toney is the only 'name' boxer stupid enough to get in the ring with with some big oversized h0mo intent on dry humping and 69'ing him into submission. Why would you bother? Surely there's far more money to be made in boxing. I suppose he is way past his use by date and just looking for a payday.

UFC - Utimate Faggots Contest

[Not a hacker]

I don't necessarily agree with all of Kiwi's comments but I agree Tony was a dumb arse trying to take on a guy like Couture in his MMA debut. Couture is the craftiest fighter in the UFC, and way too experienced to take on in your debut, particulalry when you don't even come form an MMA background. Tony would have been better off taking on some pondering out of shape slugger who wanted to stand toe to toe and trade punches with him and who doesn't know how to take it to the ground, basically someone like him. There was only ever one way this fight was gonna go, Lights Out getting schooled by The Natural.

I haven't seen too much of Edgar, but I must say I am very surprised anyone could man handle Penn for five rounds. I thought at 155 he was close to unbeatable. I think that's one of the best things about UFC, it's so hard to predict the result. Basically anyone in the top 10 of each division is capable of beating any other on any given day. Unlike boxing, there are no mismatches or set ups in UFC. You can't safely build up a 20-0 record without taking a single risk in UFC. These guys all know that if they don't put on a good show they will get their arse whooped and won't be invited back.

[lorenzoinoc]

I know there's more than a few MMA fans on here, so I thought we needed a thread for this.

Especially in light of last night's "astounding" defeat of IBA Heavyweight Champ James "Lights Out" Toney at the hands of 47 year old MMA veteran Randy "The Natural" Couture, in which Toney threw and landed exactly ZERO punches before being taken to the ground and choked into submission by one of the most elementary MMA submission holds - the dreaded and terrifying ARM TRIANGLE CHOKE.

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! He hounded and dissed Dana White for months to get this fight, thinking he was going to knock out one of the UFC's heavyweights and show the MMA world how legit boxing is.

How'd that work out for ya, "Lights Out"?

Loved his post-match comments with Joe Rogan about his ground game - "There's nothing wrong with my ground game"... LOL! That's like saying there's nothing wrong with your car - when you don't even own a car.

That fight was so much awesome.

BJ Penn looked so uninterested in actually fighting... Edgar outclassed him in just about every way, which is something you just don't expect to see when BJ's fighting at 155. Pretty much a "passing the torch" type of match. Hard to watch, but great to see. I expect BJ will retire pretty soon.

Lauzon had the most impressive performance of the night IMO, absolutely OWNED Gabe Ruediger. Pure dominance.



FON

I missed it because in this region the Top Lumberjack finals were broadcast at the same time and I couldn't watch both events. I don't know if there are any other competition lumberjack fans out there, but the final was kind of special.

After having to listen to Conifer Johnson go on about how he was the best for almost a year now, it was great to see Chainsaw Smith dunk him into the water during the rolling, floating log thing event. I just wish they'd held Johnson's head under water for ten minutes. That guy's endless drivel about how he was the best was like listening to friggin' Larry, it was that annoying.

And the tree hugging/climbing event was even more than promised, what with Spruce Simmons getting that nine inch splinter in his testicles. You have to wonder why a top demolition derby driver like Simmons would risk his future like that. And his post round comments about how his climbing technique was fine, it was an unfair tree were just b.ullshit.

[Horseballs]

I know there's more than a few MMA fans on here, so I thought we needed a thread for this.

Especially in light of last night's "astounding" defeat of IBA Heavyweight Champ James "Lights Out" Toney at the hands of 47 year old MMA veteran Randy "The Natural" Couture, in which Toney threw and landed exactly ZERO punches before being taken to the ground and choked into submission by one of the most elementary MMA submission holds - the dreaded and terrifying ARM TRIANGLE CHOKE.

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! He hounded and dissed Dana White for months to get this fight, thinking he was going to knock out one of the UFC's heavyweights and show the MMA world how legit boxing is.

How'd that work out for ya, "Lights Out"?

Loved his post-match comments with Joe Rogan about his ground game - "There's nothing wrong with my ground game"... LOL! That's like saying there's nothing wrong with your car - when you don't even own a car.

That fight was so much awesome.

BJ Penn looked so uninterested in actually fighting... Edgar outclassed him in just about every way, which is something you just don't expect to see when BJ's fighting at 155. Pretty much a "passing the torch" type of match. Hard to watch, but great to see. I expect BJ will retire pretty soon.

Lauzon had the most impressive performance of the night IMO, absolutely OWNED Gabe Ruediger. Pure dominance.



FON

This arm triangle hold: Is this where you hold hands with the other guy while dryhumping him? Because that is the most elementary submission hold. Kiwi is dead on about MMA.

[FreakOfNature]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSQ0jJfEFRk

That's an arm triangle choke. While you guys may think it looks like dry humping, I'm sure if you ask James Toney he'll tell you it feels nothing like it. I'm actually a bit disappointed that Couture didn't put more of a beating on Toney, rough him up and get him nice and bloody before locking in the submission. Toney just laid there on his back doing his best impersonation of a drunk guy passed out on a lawn before Couture locked in the choke.

The Toney/Couture fight pretty much ended any debate that may have remained on which of boxing or MMA is more effective. Boxing is a component of MMA, but unless you have a competent ground game and takedown defense - you'll never get a chance to use it to win a fight. The only way you get to stand and bang with the other guy is if he's scared to death of your ground fighting skills even moreso than your striking.

James Toney and Kimbo Slice would have been an entertaining brawl. Kimbo has no ground game either.

Watch this (Clay Guida vs Diego Sanchez highlights) and tell me MMA is all dry-humping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44kVsKkrHVQ

The dry humping you guys are complaining about is because the fighter doing it isn't trying to FINISH the opponent, he's just trying to stall and not LOSE. Boxing is rife with the exact same bullsh!t with guys walking in and clinching every other punch, going 12 rounds and leaving it up to the judges. Real fans of ANY combat sport want to see guys trying to WIN, not avoid losing. MMA fans hate that type of fighting just as much as you guys do. Whichever discipline you happen to be a fan of, I'm pretty sure we all agree that those types of fighters don't make for entertaining fights.



FON

[Kiwi Player]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSQ0jJfEFRk

That's an arm triangle choke. While you guys may think it looks like dry humping, I'm sure if you ask James Toney he'll tell you it feels nothing like it. I'm actually a bit disappointed that Couture didn't put more of a beating on Toney, rough him up and get him nice and bloody before locking in the submission. Toney just laid there on his back doing his best impersonation of a drunk guy passed out on a lawn before Couture locked in the choke.

The Toney/Couture fight pretty much ended any debate that may have remained on which of boxing or MMA is more effective. Boxing is a component of MMA, but unless you have a competent ground game and takedown defense - you'll never get a chance to use it to win a fight. The only way you get to stand and bang with the other guy is if he's scared to death of your ground fighting skills even moreso than your striking.

James Toney and Kimbo Slice would have been an entertaining brawl. Kimbo has no ground game either.

Watch this (Clay Guida vs Diego Sanchez highlights) and tell me MMA is all dry-humping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44kVsKkrHVQ

The dry humping you guys are complaining about is because the fighter doing it isn't trying to FINISH the opponent, he's just trying to stall and not LOSE. Boxing is rife with the exact same bullsh!t with guys walking in and clinching every other punch, going 12 rounds and leaving it up to the judges. Real fans of ANY combat sport want to see guys trying to WIN, not avoid losing. MMA fans hate that type of fighting just as much as you guys do. Whichever discipline you happen to be a fan of, I'm pretty sure we all agree that those types of fighters don't make for entertaining fights.



FON

Arm Triangle FROM MOUNT pretty much says it all.

And you are right. It's not all dry humping. Patter cake punches and ineffective kicks are also fundamental to MMA.

[FreakOfNature]

Arm Triangle FROM MOUNT pretty much says it all.

And you are right. It's not all dry humping. Patter cake punches and ineffective kicks are also fundamental to MMA.

FON

[Horseballs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSQ0jJfEFRk

That's an arm triangle choke. While you guys may think it looks like dry humping, I'm sure if you ask James Toney he'll tell you it feels nothing like it. I'm actually a bit disappointed that Couture didn't put more of a beating on Toney, rough him up and get him nice and bloody before locking in the submission. Toney just laid there on his back doing his best impersonation of a drunk guy passed out on a lawn before Couture locked in the choke.

The Toney/Couture fight pretty much ended any debate that may have remained on which of boxing or MMA is more effective. Boxing is a component of MMA, but unless you have a competent ground game and takedown defense - you'll never get a chance to use it to win a fight. The only way you get to stand and bang with the other guy is if he's scared to death of your ground fighting skills even moreso than your striking.

James Toney and Kimbo Slice would have been an entertaining brawl. Kimbo has no ground game either.

Watch this (Clay Guida vs Diego Sanchez highlights) and tell me MMA is all dry-humping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44kVsKkrHVQ

The dry humping you guys are complaining about is because the fighter doing it isn't trying to FINISH the opponent, he's just trying to stall and not LOSE. Boxing is rife with the exact same bullsh!t with guys walking in and clinching every other punch, going 12 rounds and leaving it up to the judges. Real fans of ANY combat sport want to see guys trying to WIN, not avoid losing. MMA fans hate that type of fighting just as much as you guys do. Whichever discipline you happen to be a fan of, I'm pretty sure we all agree that those types of fighters don't make for entertaining fights.



FON

Dude, your own link shows blatant dryhumping. I made it to 1 minute into Guida v. Sanchez match and the dryhumping got out of control. If the other guy cums, does it count as a submission? Because that's all your link was about.

[Not a hacker]

I gotta agree with FON about boxers not wanting to lose. There is nothing more boring than a boxing match with two combatants reluctant to exchange punches. Watching them stay back, faint, dance around then run in and clinch is like watching paint dry. Boxing matches like Hagler/Hearns and Gatti/Ward are real fights but too few and far between for mine. At least when I watch UFC I know I'm going to see two guys trying to beat the hell out each other, and the likelihood of someone getting knocked out.

I think it's a bit harsh using the Tony/Couture fight as conclusive proof that MMA is superior to boxing. As comprehensive as Randy Couture's win was if he had taken on Tony in a boxing match it would have been just as one sided the other way.

[FreakOfNature]

I gotta agree with FON about boxers not wanting to lose. There is nothing more boring than a boxing match with two combatants reluctant to exchange punches. Watching them stay back, faint, dance around then run in and clinch is like watching paint dry. Boxing matches like Hagler/Hearns and Gatti/Ward are real fights but too few and far between for mine. At least when I watch UFC I know I'm going to see two guys trying to beat the hell out each other, and the likelihood of someone getting knocked out.

I think it's a bit harsh using the Tony/Couture fight as conclusive proof that MMA is superior to boxing. As comprehensive as Randy Couture's win was if he had taken on Tony in a boxing match it would have been just as one sided the other way.

I guess it is a bit harsh to use the Toney/Couture bout as more than just a piece of the evidence. The fight was a mismatch even though Couture is less than 3 years from his 50th birthday, and nobody who knows a little about MMA expected the fight to go down much differently. Truth is - comparing boxing to MMA is like comparing a tire to a car.

I think the rule structure of boxing is what makes Toney (or any boxer) appear to be more of a dangerous striker than he really is. When you're facing a one-dimensional threat (two fists limited to throwing strikes above the foul protector only) the defensive strategy is greatly simplified.

I'd like to see Toney give K1 a try. Kickboxers are notorious for their powerful and precision striking ability. Toney wouldn't have to worry about being taken to the ground and choked out or submitted, he'd only have to worry about having his legs kicked out from under him. He'd have a much better chance of putting his tools to work and actually scoring some hits - maybe even getting a KO.



FON

[jetdriver]

I prefer golf because no one can touch my balls as they lie.

[FreakOfNature]

I prefer golf because no one can touch my balls as they lie.

Weak troll is weak.



FON

[Kiwi Player]

I know there's more than a few MMA fans on here, so I thought we needed a thread for this.

Especially in light of last night's "astounding" defeat of IBA Heavyweight Champ James "Lights Out" Toney at the hands of 47 year old MMA veteran Randy "The Natural" Couture, in which Toney threw and landed exactly ZERO punches before being taken to the ground and choked into submission by one of the most elementary MMA submission holds - the dreaded and terrifying ARM TRIANGLE CHOKE.

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! He hounded and dissed Dana White for months to get this fight, thinking he was going to knock out one of the UFC's heavyweights and show the MMA world how legit boxing is.

How'd that work out for ya, "Lights Out"?

Loved his post-match comments with Joe Rogan about his ground game - "There's nothing wrong with my ground game"... LOL! That's like saying there's nothing wrong with your car - when you don't even own a car.

That fight was so much awesome.

You're taking so much delight in the fact an MMA guy put a whipping on Toney. Sure he talked a lot of sh.it in the lead up to the fight but the truth is that lowlife POS has been mouthing off since he first came to prominence in boxing with an upset win over Michael Nunn way about 1991-92.

When he fought Roy Jones in 1994 his trash talk in the lead up included "Jones ain't nuthin, and he won't ever be nuthin" "Losin is not an option" blah ...blah ... blah ... etc

He than went out and got his arse handed to him on a plate over 12 rounds.

Here we are 16 years later and a fat, old Toney gets tapped out by an expert wrestler and you are hailing it as some sort of proof MMA is superior. All it proved is that Couture, an expert, can beat Toney, a novice, in his chosen sport of dry humping.

[FreakOfNature]

You're taking so much delight in the fact an MMA guy put a whipping on Toney. Sure he talked a lot of sh.it in the lead up to the fight but the truth is that lowlife POS has been mouthing off since he first came to prominence in boxing with an upset win over Michael Nunn way about 1991-92.

When he fought Roy Jones in 1994 his trash talk in the lead up included "Jones ain't nuthin, and he won't ever be nuthin" "Losin is not an option" blah ...blah ... blah ... etc

He than went out and got his arse handed to him on a plate over 12 rounds.

Here we are 16 years later and a fat, old Toney gets tapped out by an expert wrestler and you are hailing it as some sort of proof MMA is superior. All it proved is that Couture, an expert, can beat Toney, a novice, in his chosen sport of dry humping.

It's not that I'm taking such great delight in so much that this was a victory for MMA and a defeat for boxing... it's that I'm doing a really exceptional job of trolling the boxing fans.

I'm a big fan of boxing as well as MMA. I get what everyone is saying about the "dry humping" and I don't find it entertaining either - but it's not just MMA, boxing and all combat sports have guys who don't fight to win, but fight to not lose.

Holyfield vs Tyson. Evander was legit scared of Tyson's power, or he would have kept his distance and boxed him. I know everyone loves "The Real Deal" but in that fight he proved he wasn't man enough to let his boxing skills do the talking. He'd throw a 1-2 combo and hugged Tyson on almost every exchange. It was like watching a Care Bear attempt to maul a grizzly. Pathetic. No wonder Tyson bit half his ear off. That level of clinching would've led almost anyone to Tonya Harding his Nancy Kerrigan @ss. It wasn't sportsmanlike in any way, what Holyfield did that fight. He did the equivalent of "dry humping" Tyson.

Anyways, back on topic... Toney is a trash talking b!tch that I love to see lose his fights, no matter who they're against. Everyone agrees that he deserved what he got from Couture, especially after all the trash he was talking. Many think Couture should have roughed him up a little more to add injury to insult. It is what it is. A win for Couture and a loss for Toney. I had really hoped that Toney would have been more of a challenge for Couture, but that's not how it went down.



FON

[Not a hacker]

It's not that I'm taking such great delight in so much that this was a victory for MMA and a defeat for boxing... it's that I'm doing a really exceptional job of trolling the boxing fans.

I'm a big fan of boxing as well as MMA. I get what everyone is saying about the "dry humping" and I don't find it entertaining either - but it's not just MMA, boxing and all combat sports have guys who don't fight to win, but fight to not lose.

Holyfield vs Tyson. Evander was legit scared of Tyson's power, or he would have kept his distance and boxed him. I know everyone loves "The Real Deal" but in that fight he proved he wasn't man enough to let his boxing skills do the talking. He'd throw a 1-2 combo and hugged Tyson on almost every exchange. It was like watching a Care Bear attempt to maul a grizzly. Pathetic. No wonder Tyson bit half his ear off. That level of clinching would've led almost anyone to Tonya Harding his Nancy Kerrigan @ss. It wasn't sportsmanlike in any way, what Holyfield did that fight. He did the equivalent of "dry humping" Tyson.

Anyways, back on topic... Toney is a trash talking b!tch that I love to see lose his fights, no matter who they're against. Everyone agrees that he deserved what he got from Couture, especially after all the trash he was talking. Many think Couture should have roughed him up a little more to add injury to insult. It is what it is. A win for Couture and a loss for Toney. I had really hoped that Toney would have been more of a challenge for Couture, but that's not how it went down.



FON

The Tyson/Holyfield fight has been visited before on GR and your thoughts were generally shared, except that Holyfield not only ran in to aboid trading punches, but also butted Tyson repeatedly. He did it all the way through their first fight and all the way to the ear biting in the second. I sort of don't blame Holyfield for not standing in front of Tyson swapping punches, to d that would not have required courage, it would have required no thoughts of self preservation whatsoever. Holyfield was no coward (going one on one with nobody backing you up is not a sport cowards would show interest in), just a dirty fighter who got away with murder in both those fights. He should have lost points well before Tyson lost it and bit his ear off.

[Kiwi Player]

The Tyson/Holyfield fight has been visited before on GR and your thoughts were generally shared, except that Holyfield not only ran in to aboid trading punches, but also butted Tyson repeatedly. He did it all the way through their first fight and all the way to the ear biting in the second. I sort of don't blame Holyfield for not standing in front of Tyson swapping punches, to d that would not have required courage, it would have required no thoughts of self preservation whatsoever. Holyfield was no coward (going one on one with nobody backing you up is not a sport cowards would show interest in), just a dirty fighter who got away with murder in both those fights. He should have lost points well before Tyson lost it and bit his ear off.

I don't know which Holyfield/Tyson fight you guys were watching.

Holyfield/Tyson I was one of the greatest fights of the 1990's. Holyfield took the fight to Tyson, backed him up and bullied him into submission. Tyson was a bully and most bullies are essentially cowards if you stand up to them.

Holyfield/Tyson II was just a sh.it scared, cowardly Tyson fouling his way out of a fight he knew he couldn't win and didn't want to be there.

[Not a hacker]

I don't know which Holyfield/Tyson fight you guys were watching.

Holyfield/Tyson I was one of the greatest fights of the 1990's. Holyfield took the fight to Tyson, backed him up and bullied him into submission. Tyson was a bully and most bullies are essentially cowards if you stand up to them.

Holyfield/Tyson II was just a sh.it scared, cowardly Tyson fouling his way out of a fight he knew he couldn't win and didn't want to be there.

The first Tyson Holyfield fight wa a great fight, but if watch closely you will see Holyfield butting and fouling Tyson repeatedly. He may have been sneaky enough to not get caught by the refs, but the guys he fought will tell you that he was a dirty fighter who butted. Tyson was also outmuscled in that fight by a ridiculously roided up Holyfield. Holyfield was never more than a pumped up cruiser weight, but against Tyson he looked like a man mountain and made Tyson look small and soft in comparison. That was the only time I've seen Tyson look physically inferior to his opponent.

Holyfield was a warrior and a champion boxer, but he was not in the same ball park as Tyson as a fighter. Tyson at 21 had speed, power, footowrk and balance and was one of the all time great heavyweights. Even facing a Tyson way past his prime, Holyfield knew he needed some chemical help and dirty tactics to get past Iron Mike. If they had fought 4 years earleir when Tyson was in peak shape and Holyfield was about 30 pounds lighter it wouldn't have gone 2 rounds, Tyson would have destroyed him.

[Kiwi Player]

The first Tyson Holyfield fight wa a great fight, but if watch closely you will see Holyfield butting and fouling Tyson repeatedly. He may have been sneaky enough to not get caught by the refs, but the guys he fought will tell you that he was a dirty fighter who butted. Tyson was also outmuscled in that fight by a ridiculously roided up Holyfield. Holyfield was never more than a pumped up cruiser weight, but against Tyson he looked like a man mountain and made Tyson look small and soft in comparison. That was the only time I've seen Tyson look physically inferior to his opponent.

Holyfield was a warrior and a champion boxer, but he was not in the same ball park as Tyson as a fighter. Tyson at 21 had speed, power, footowrk and balance and was one of the all time great heavyweights. Even facing a Tyson way past his prime, Holyfield knew he needed some chemical help and dirty tactics to get past Iron Mike. If they had fought 4 years earleir when Tyson was in peak shape and Holyfield was about 30 pounds lighter it wouldn't have gone 2 rounds, Tyson would have destroyed him.

Yes poor little Iron Mike. He was such an innocent cherub himself.

[Not a hacker]

Yes poor little Iron Mike. He was such an innocent cherub himself.

Mike was certainly no Angel, but at least he was a boxer. Everyone of his knockouts came from fast, clean punches landing right on the button. I've been watching some young Tyson fights on youtube lately, and I can't believe how fast he was for a heavyweight. Most of the guys he beat didn't see the punches coming. The only heavyweight who was faster was a young Ali, who IMO was possibly the fastest boxer of all time, regardless of weight. The Ali flurry against Brian London (the old black and white footage which is usually in slow motion) is as close to perfection as you will ever see in the boxing ring. If that Ali, or even a young Tyson, jumped in the ring against an MMA legend it may have ended differently to the sight of a fat slug being choked out in a triangle choke. Even a legend like Couture would have had trouble dealing with real speed.

[FreakOfNature]

Throw your fastest boxer in against Anderson Silva. Silva's only real weakness is his overconfidence, which Sonnen almost made him pay for... but Sonnen is a wrestler - not a boxer. I think Silva vs Roy Jones Jr. in Jones' prime would have been a heck of a striking war. Both guys are elusive and hard to hit. It would have been awesome to see.



FON

[Not a hacker]

Throw your fastest boxer in against Anderson Silva. Silva's only real weakness is his overconfidence, which Sonnen almost made him pay for... but Sonnen is a wrestler - not a boxer. I think Silva vs Roy Jones Jr. in Jones' prime would have been a heck of a striking war. Both guys are elusive and hard to hit. It would have been awesome to see.



FON

Silva and Roy would are similar in physical dimensions too. It would be a hell of a fight. I think Vanderlei Silva up against Marvin Hagler would be another dream match up, neither would give an inch.

[FreakOfNature]

WOW. What an entertaining UFC that was.

Brock Lesnar gets the tar beat out of him by the new undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, Cain Velasquez! Man, that was a huge gash on Brock's cheek.

Not sure if anyone else noticed how unimpressed Dana White looked putting that title on Velasquez instead of his cash-cow phenom Lesnar...

Diego Sanchez looked really impressive tonight with his win over Paulo Thiago. Mark Hamill looked great as well in his victory over Tito Ortiz.

Great card overall, some very entertaining fights. Even the prelims were good fights.

I'm so psyched that someone finally managed to put the hurt on Lesnar. I f'n hate that SOB. It was great watching him lose, and also get beat up in the process.



FON

[edgey]

WOW. What an entertaining UFC that was.

Brock Lesnar gets the tar beat out of him by the new undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, Cain Velasquez! Man, that was a huge gash on Brock's cheek.

Not sure if anyone else noticed how unimpressed Dana White looked putting that title on Velasquez instead of his cash-cow phenom Lesnar...

Diego Sanchez looked really impressive tonight with his win over Paulo Thiago. Mark Hamill looked great as well in his victory over Tito Ortiz.

Great card overall, some very entertaining fights. Even the prelims were good fights.

I'm so psyched that someone finally managed to put the hurt on Lesnar. I f'n hate that SOB. It was great watching him lose, and also get beat up in the process.



FON

Why the hate on Lesnar? Is it his WWE history?

Edgey

[Not a hacker]

WOW. What an entertaining UFC that was.

Brock Lesnar gets the tar beat out of him by the new undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, Cain Velasquez! Man, that was a huge gash on Brock's cheek.

Not sure if anyone else noticed how unimpressed Dana White looked putting that title on Velasquez instead of his cash-cow phenom Lesnar...

Diego Sanchez looked really impressive tonight with his win over Paulo Thiago. Mark Hamill looked great as well in his victory over Tito Ortiz.

Great card overall, some very entertaining fights. Even the prelims were good fights.

I'm so psyched that someone finally managed to put the hurt on Lesnar. I f'n hate that SOB. It was great watching him lose, and also get beat up in the process.



FON

Wow, I knew this fight was coming but didn't realise it was this weekend. Valesquez beating Lesnar was no real surprise. Everbody in the heavyweight division has known for some time that Valesquez is the best heavyweight in UFC. I saw him headline the UFC event in Sydney when he knocked Naguera cold, and I was very impressed with his striking. I thought afetr Lesnar's last fight against Carwin that he would be in trouble against Valesquez. If Carwin could connect against Lesnar and hurt him badly, Cain was always gonna be too much for Brock to handle.

It's gonna be interesitng to see who's up next for Velasquez, Mir or Dos Santos. Mir has come back strongly from his beating at the hands of Lesnar, and has a great all round game, but I don't like his chances of beating Velasquez. Dos Santos has proven himself to be oneof the best fighters in the heavyweight division and may be the one guy who can give Velasquez a run for his money. He's a great striker and is Brazilian so has a good ground game. If I was the booker I'd probably put Dos Santos in next against Velasquez, and maybe put Mir against Lesnar. Those guys have some history and could probably headline a UFC even without a title belt on the line.

[Mward2002]

It'll be Dos Santos. Mir's last fight he won, but it wasn't a very sound win. Odds are Lesnar's next fight will be against Corwin again for #1 contender.

Brock looked like he had no idea what to do when he couldn't take down Cain in the first 10 seconds. But then he got his world rocked. I thought the ref called the fight a little early to be honest. Brock was still defending himself, albeit not much.

[Not a hacker]

It'll be Dos Santos. Mir's last fight he won, but it wasn't a very sound win. Odds are Lesnar's next fight will be against Corwin again for #1 contender.

Brock looked like he had no idea what to do when he couldn't take down Cain in the first 10 seconds. But then he got his world rocked. I thought the ref called the fight a little early to be honest. Brock was still defending himself, albeit not much.

Lesnar is a little one dimensional, but he is still a hell of a ground and pound fighter, one of the best ever in the heavyweight division. I thought Valesquez would win it, but I thought he might be in trouble if Brock got him down. As it turned out it was no problem for him to get out and back on his feet. Time will tell, but I've thought form the time he destroyed Noguera with a beautiful punch that Cain is a special fighter and may hold the title for some time.

One thing that I like about UFC is that it is much fairer in the matchups than boxing. It's not up to the champion and his promoter to pick and coose who get's a shot at the title. The champions have to fight the top contender, as decided by the UFC. There is no ducking like some boxing champions, making big bucks taking no risks against stiffs while dagerous fighters ever get their shot. I've always loved boxing but the corruption has ruined it as a sporting spectacle. The UFC has made a smart move by retaining total control of the sport and not letting Don King types ruin it like he did boxing.

[Mward2002]

I'm thinking the title's going to be bounced around a bit personally. Cain'll hold onto it against Dos Santos, but lose it against the next guy he fights. I'd like to see Cain vs Carwin down the road as well.

Dana White's been putting some solid cards out on paper. It's annoying when they bomb though (Anderson Silva vs anyone. He just toys with them like an idiot half the time)

[famousdavis]

Is Pat Patterson still wrestling these days? I used to watch him on Big Time Wrestling back in the 70's. Remember those two Nazi guys that would always lose? I forgot their names.

[FreakOfNature]

Why the hate on Lesnar? Is it his WWE history?

Edgey

Nothing to do with his WWE history, everything to do with the fact that he's simply an @sshole.



FON

[FreakOfNature]

I'm thinking the title's going to be bounced around a bit personally. Cain'll hold onto it against Dos Santos, but lose it against the next guy he fights. I'd like to see Cain vs Carwin down the road as well.

Dana White's been putting some solid cards out on paper. It's annoying when they bomb though (Anderson Silva vs anyone. He just toys with them like an idiot half the time)

I'm thinking Velasquez will be holding that title for quite some time. I really don't see anyone among the current crop of HW's who's really close to his league. Cain beat the man who took out most of the upper echelon of UFC HW's, and with how well rounded his whole game is I see him being a much more difficult fighter to formulate a game plan for. Dos Santos will have his work cut out for him.

Brock was easy to plan for - stuff the TD and stand with him, and/or put him on his back and see how he wrestles from there (which it turns out, he doesn't do so well). We also found out that Brock goes into full panic mode when he starts getting tagged. Now that he's been exposed, I think he's got a very slim chance of getting that belt back.



FON

[Mward2002]

I don't recall him being a dick when he was wrestling in college, do you? He seems to just piss off everybody now. He got up in the Undertaker's face at the UFC event when some random reporter was just there asking him how UFC has helped him in his industry etc. Brock walked right up to Undertaker and just glared at him like he was ready to throw him a right cross. Completely out of the blue, threw the reporter offguard and kinda ruined the interview. Felt like I was watching WWF wrestling for a minute.

[Not a hacker]

I'm thinking Velasquez will be holding that title for quite some time. I really don't see anyone among the current crop of HW's who's really close to his league. Cain beat the man who took out most of the upper echelon of UFC HW's, and with how well rounded his whole game is I see him being a much more difficult fighter to formulate a game plan for. Dos Santos will have his work cut out for him.

Brock was easy to plan for - stuff the TD and stand with him, and/or put him on his back and see how he wrestles from there (which it turns out, he doesn't do so well). We also found out that Brock goes into full panic mode when he starts getting tagged. Now that he's been exposed, I think he's got a very slim chance of getting that belt back.



FON

I think Brock will be back bigger and better than ever. His deficiences were exposed big time in that fight, but Velasquez is a phenomenal fighter who has embarrassed lenty of big names on his way to the title. I think that before this fight Lesnar got by on his wrestling, shooting and ground and pund. For such a big guy he moves pretty fast on the takedown. Let's not forget that Brock has beaten Mir, Carwin and Couture, which is an outstanding achievement for such an inexperienced fighter. What happened on the weekend was he came up against a guy who could counter his plan A, and Lesnar had no plan B, C or D. Cain is such a good all rund fighter he has plenty of fall back plans he can go to, but Lesnar is one dimensional and has no idea if plan A fails. I think Lesna has the physical traits to beat anyone, if he goes away and learns how to slip punches and how to grapple, he will be a threat to nearly everyone in the division. Bt I agree that Cain has too many guns for Brock, and any other heavyweight in UFC. The guys who had the skills to give him a run are getting too old, and the up and comers are't in is class. I thik Carwin will be destroyed if he steps in wiht Velasquez.

[Mward2002]

I think Brock will be back bigger and better than ever. His deficiences were exposed big time in that fight, but Velasquez is a phenomenal fighter who has embarrassed lenty of big names on his way to the title. I think that before this fight Lesnar got by on his wrestling, shooting and ground and pund. For such a big guy he moves pretty fast on the takedown. Let's not forget that Brock has beaten Mir, Carwin and Couture, which is an outstanding achievement for such an inexperienced fighter. What happened on the weekend was he came up against a guy who could counter his plan A, and Lesnar had no plan B, C or D. Cain is such a good all rund fighter he has plenty of fall back plans he can go to, but Lesnar is one dimensional and has no idea if plan A fails. I think Lesna has the physical traits to beat anyone, if he goes away and learns how to slip punches and how to grapple, he will be a threat to nearly everyone in the division. Bt I agree that Cain has too many guns for Brock, and any other heavyweight in UFC. The guys who had the skills to give him a run are getting too old, and the up and comers are't in is class. I thik Carwin will be destroyed if he steps in wiht Velasquez.

Carwin has a chance if he can take him down before the end of 3 rounds. He can hit hard and has a ton of first round KO's. He couldn't do worse than Brock did, that's for sure.

[Not a hacker]

Carwin has a chance if he can take him down before the end of 3 rounds. He can hit hard and has a ton of first round KO's. He couldn't do worse than Brock did, that's for sure.

He dropped Brock in the first round from emory, but didn't quite knock him out. Amongst all his other strengths, Velasquez also has a very good chin, as most Mexican fighters seem to have. Caewin has to get in early and land some big shots, but this probably won't happen as I think Velasquez has a fairly big edge over Carwin in speed. But this fight won't happen yet as Cain has to get past Junior and Carwin has to get past Lesnar, and imo both those match ups are too close to call, although I'd avour Cain and Carwin both winning.

[FreakOfNature]

Shane Carwin pulls out of upcoming fight with Roy "Get in muh belly" Nelson @ UFC 125.

http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/...ory?id=5731198

Not to worry though, the Edgar vs Maynard main event will likely more than make up for it.



FON

[Kiwi Player]

Just been watching a bit of UFC on TV.

Do UFC/MMA fighters all smoke?

Because it seems only appropriate that they share a cigarette after spending such a long time intimately humping each other.

[FreakOfNature]

Who can stop Jon "Bones" Jones in light heavyweight?

Not Shogun, that's for sure. Wow, what a dominant performance. Shogun just got absolutely owned in that fight.

Jones should be nicknamed "the Innovator of Offense" after that showing. Loved the way he used Shogun's fear of head strikes to goad him into taking so many hard body strikes, eventually finishing the fight with a rib-buckling left hook. Awesome strategy... and even better execution.

Next in line for Jones is his teammate and sparring partner, former LHW champ Rashad Evans, who I think Jones will beat quite easily.

Jones is gonna have that strap for quite some time, IMO.



FON

[ironman]

#$%^darnit! I missed the UFC 128 due to a dinner party I chose to go.
Anyone got links to watch or must I pay for UFC 128 video that I already know the results of?
http://www.mma-core.com/

[lorenzoinoc]

Who can stop Jon "Bones" Jones in light heavyweight?

Not Shogun, that's for sure. Wow, what a dominant performance. Shogun just got absolutely owned in that fight.

Jones should be nicknamed "the Innovator of Offense" after that showing. Loved the way he used Shogun's fear of head strikes to goad him into taking so many hard body strikes, eventually finishing the fight with a rib-buckling left hook. Awesome strategy... and even better execution.

Next in line for Jones is his teammate and sparring partner, former LHW champ Rashad Evans, who I think Jones will beat quite easily.

Jones is gonna have that strap for quite some time, IMO.





FON

Surely someone could along who'd be better at rolling around rubbing his face in another guy's ass than Jones.


Here's the link to the fight: http;//www.whitetrashneedentertainmenttoo.com

[lorenzoinoc]

Speaking of fighting, if any of you have been starving to see an annoying Muslim completely humiliate himself in front of thousands of people, here you go.


You have to watch the whole thing.

[Kiwi Player]

Who can stop Jon "Bones" Jones in light heavyweight?

Not Shogun, that's for sure. Wow, what a dominant performance. Shogun just got absolutely owned in that fight.

Jones should be nicknamed "the Innovator of Offense" after that showing. Loved the way he used Shogun's fear of head strikes to goad him into taking so many hard body strikes, eventually finishing the fight with a rib-buckling left hook. Awesome strategy... and even better execution.

Next in line for Jones is his teammate and sparring partner, former LHW champ Rashad Evans, who I think Jones will beat quite easily.

Jones is gonna have that strap on for quite some time, IMO.



FON

So they've gone from simple dry humping to using strap ons now? How long do you think before they dispense with this whole phony combat sport facade and just start having full on gay sex in the cage?

[Kiwi Player]

Speaking of fighting, if any of you have been starving to see an annoying Muslim completely humiliate himself in front of thousands of people, here you go.


You have to watch the whole thing.

You gotta admit he's busting some awesome moves, none of which would look out of place in a gay nightclub or MMA Cage.

[lorenzoinoc]

You gotta admit he's busting some awesome moves, none of which would look out of place in a gay nightclub or MMA Cage.

His dancing was top notch, even if at the wrong time. It was like watching Michael Jackson get in the ring with Marvin Hagler.

[ironman]

So they've gone from simple dry humping to using strap ons now? How long do you think before they dispense with this whole phony combat sport facade and just start having full on gay sex in the cage?

phony? Let me kick you once in a MMA cage see how phony or "ghey" that feels?
Boxing's great until you meet a fast hard kicker.

YouLimpWristedBi*tc*esThatKnowNuthin'AboutFightSpo rts.

One thing sex and fighting have in common: Penetration. But there're worlds of differences.

[lorenzoinoc]

phony? Let me kick you once in a MMA cage see how phony or "ghey" that feels?
Boxing's great until you meet a fast hard kicker.

YouLimpWristedBi*tc*esThatKnowNuthin'AboutFightSpo rts.

One thing sex and fighting have in common: Penetration. But there're worlds of differences.

I've edited your post below, eliminating all white trash elements for those who aren't d.ickheads:

One. But.

Happy to help.

[Horseballs]

So they've gone from simple dry humping to using strap ons now? How long do you think before they dispense with this whole phony combat sport facade and just start having full on gay sex in the cage?

Kiwi,
Thank you for taking the reins on this MMA topic. I was going to reply multiple times, but I see you've got it covered.

[FreakOfNature]

So they've gone from simple dry humping to using strap ons now? How long do you think before they dispense with this whole phony combat sport facade and just start having full on gay sex in the cage?

I see what you did there.

There was no dry humping in the Jones/Shogun fight, I assure you. It was all Jones beating the ever-living sh!t out of Shogun for almost 2 rounds.

If you get a chance to watch that fight - do so, and then tell me it was gay again. If you think that fight is gay you should petition the UFC to allow the deployment of 3 tactical nuclear strikes per fighter per round.



Seriously. It was f'n incredible. Jones is the man.



FON

[lorenzoinoc]

Outwardly MMA fans laud the rare fight that isn't mostly dry humping. Inwardly it's a huge disappointment to them.

[Not a hacker]

Who can stop Jon "Bones" Jones in light heavyweight?

Not Shogun, that's for sure. Wow, what a dominant performance. Shogun just got absolutely owned in that fight.

Jones should be nicknamed "the Innovator of Offense" after that showing. Loved the way he used Shogun's fear of head strikes to goad him into taking so many hard body strikes, eventually finishing the fight with a rib-buckling left hook. Awesome strategy... and even better execution.

Next in line for Jones is his teammate and sparring partner, former LHW champ Rashad Evans, who I think Jones will beat quite easily.

Jones is gonna have that strap for quite some time, IMO.



FON

Bones has certainly made some noise on his travels through the ranks. He looks like the real deal, but if there was one light heavy I would give a chace against him it's Evans. Evans has the speed and athleticism to give Bones some troubles. As impressive as Bones is, he's still very green. He hasn't been in any real trouble yet, so we haven't seen how he will handle it. I think he's a great prospect who could well go onto a long title reign, but UFC is a hard sport to keep winning in, there are so many variables and all it takes is one piece of bad luck to lose. It's an intersting time in UFC. For the first time I ca remember there are dominant champions in Heavy, and Middle, and it looks like Bones has what it takes to be dominant in Light heavy.

But did you know he is a massive god botherer? Not sure how beating opponents half to death is a good christian ting to do though, just selective religion I suppose. He wants t make sure he get's to heaven.

[Horseballs]

Bones has certainly made some noise on his travels through the ranks. He looks like the real deal, but if there was one light heavy I would give a chace against him it's Evans. Evans has the speed and athleticism to give Bones some troubles. As impressive as Bones is, he's still very green. He hasn't been in any real trouble yet, so we haven't seen how he will handle it. I think he's a great prospect who could well go onto a long title reign, but UFC is a hard sport to keep winning in, there are so many variables and all it takes is one piece of bad luck to lose. It's an intersting time in UFC. For the first time I ca remember there are dominant champions in Heavy, and Middle, and it looks like Bones has what it takes to be dominant in Light heavy.

But did you know he is a massive god botherer? Not sure how beating opponents half to death is a good christian ting to do though, just selective religion I suppose. He wants t make sure he get's to heaven.

I think the biggest contributing factor to MMA/UFC success is whether you are a pitcher or a catcher.
This Boner guy you are talking about. What does "green" mean in MMA terms? Never been penetrated?

[Not a hacker]

I think the biggest contributing factor to MMA/UFC success is whether you are a pitcher or a catcher.
This Boner guy you are talking about. What does "green" mean in MMA terms? Never been penetrated?

Green in UFC means not many fights against experienced opponents. I think it wold safe to assume that you and all the rest of the critics here would be catchers if they ever had cross words with a UFC fighter. I admit I don't know much about fighting, but I know enough to know that I wouldn't sruvive a round with anyone who has entered the octagon. And I'd guess that 90% of posters here wouldn't be able to take one punch or kick from a UFC fighter. I bet you think all pro wrestlers are wusses because they do worked matches.

[Kiwi Player]

Green in UFC means not many fights against experienced opponents. I think it wold safe to assume that you and all the rest of the critics here would be catchers if they ever had cross words with a UFC fighter. I admit I don't know much about fighting, but I know enough to know that I wouldn't sruvive a round with anyone who has entered the octagon. And I'd guess that 90% of posters here wouldn't be able to take one punch or kick from a UFC fighter. I bet you think all pro wrestlers are wusses because they do worked matches.

Get real NAH. It's obvious to all but the most close minded MMA/UFC fans that boxers are far better at punching, Muay Thai boxers are far more effective at kicks, knees and elbows and wrestlers are far superior at grappling. These MMA guys aren't interested in being good at anything. They just want to get in the cage, jump on top of each other and start dry humping each other furiously as soon as possible. They are clearly repressed homosexuals who for whatever reason are unable to come out in the normal sense and MMA is the only outlet for their otherwise repressed homosexual urges.

[SoonerBS]

(fruit and veggie plate snacking out of respect for NaH who is getting his arse kicked in this thread.)

[jt1135]

Kiwi, I think you touched base on the answer. Boxer's are better at boxing, etc, etc. but MMA has to have knowledge of ALL the various disciplines. Get a boxer on the ground what do have. Nothing. If the tried to go to a clinch they'd be on the mat so fast they'd be like a full set of Ping Eye 2's at the masters. Just a duck out of water.

[Horseballs]

Green in UFC means not many fights against experienced opponents. I think it wold safe to assume that you and all the rest of the critics here would be catchers if they ever had cross words with a UFC fighter. I admit I don't know much about fighting, but I know enough to know that I wouldn't sruvive a round with anyone who has entered the octagon. And I'd guess that 90% of posters here wouldn't be able to take one punch or kick from a UFC fighter. I bet you think all pro wrestlers are wusses because they do worked matches.

As someone who only prefers things coming out of his butthole, there is no chance I'd risk getting in a cage with one of these serial dryhumpers. I guess I'm green when it comes to man-on-man combat.

[FreakOfNature]

It's easy to be a good boxer when the only offense you have to defend against is left or right punches landing above the waist.

The whole point of Mixed Martial Arts is to remove the constraints of each individual discipline. Who would be the best heavyweight boxer if they were also allowed to kick each other in the head? OK, what if they were also allowed to tackle each other and wrestle for position on the ground? How about if choking is also legal? How about if joint-locks are legal as well?

Boxing is just a component of MMA. In an MMA fight, boxing alone will rarely be effective enough to earn a victory. If you want to out-box an opponent in MMA you need to have a SCARY good ground game, to intimidate your opponent into keeping the fight on the feet. The fighter being dominated at striking will almost always attempt to take the fight to the ground. The key to becoming a great MMA striker has been and always will be the intimidation factor of having a dangerous ground game.

These guys are "fighters", not "boxers", or some other weak sh!t. These guys use every available means to simply BEAT UP their opponents and win the fight.

There have been some significant changes in MMA in the last couple years. Referees will no longer simply allow a guy to lay on another guy if he isn't working to finish the fight. The referees will stand them up rather quickly these days, and the fights have become much more exciting as a result.

If your only experience with MMA is from a few years ago now, I encourage you to give the modern product a look. You'll be surprised, and most likely hooked if you take the time to watch some of the more recent fights. They have done a good job getting rid of the "dry humping" everyone hates to watch. A lot more fighters "finish" fights now than they used to.

It's a completely different product than what we got even 5 years ago.



FON

[Horseballs]

It's easy to be a good boxer when the only offense you have to defend against is left or right punches landing above the waist.

The whole point of Mixed Martial Arts is to remove the constraints of each individual discipline. Who would be the best heavyweight boxer if they were also allowed to kick each other in the head? OK, what if they were also allowed to tackle each other and wrestle for position on the ground? How about if choking is also legal? How about if joint-locks are legal as well?

Boxing is just a component of MMA. In an MMA fight, boxing alone will rarely be effective enough to earn a victory. If you want to out-box an opponent in MMA you need to have a SCARY good ground game, to intimidate your opponent into keeping the fight on the feet. The fighter being dominated at striking will almost always attempt to take the fight to the ground. The key to becoming a great MMA striker has been and always will be the intimidation factor of having a dangerous ground game.

These guys are "fighters", not "boxers", or some other weak sh!t. These guys use every available means to simply BEAT UP their opponents and win the fight.

There have been some significant changes in MMA in the last couple years. Referees will no longer simply allow a guy to lay on another guy if he isn't working to finish the fight. The referees will stand them up rather quickly these days, and the fights have become much more exciting as a result.

If your only experience with MMA is from a few years ago now, I encourage you to give the modern product a look. You'll be surprised, and most likely hooked if you take the time to watch some of the more recent fights. They have done a good job getting rid of the "dry humping" everyone hates to watch. A lot more fighters "finish" fights now than they used to.

It's a completely different product than what we got even 5 years ago.



FON

I wish the MMA guys would make it bit more transparent for the average fan. For example, if one of the guys wore a full on gimp outfit, it would make it easier to predict who would be squealing like a pig. Maybe have one of the guys biting on a pillow before the match starts.
Serious question about MMA... It's scripted right?

[lorenzoinoc]

For any guy who thinks he isn't gay but actually is, the thought of getting banged in the ass has to be kind of scary. That's why I think MMA serves a valuable purpose.

[FreakOfNature]

I wish the MMA guys would make it bit more transparent for the average fan. For example, if one of the guys wore a full on gimp outfit, it would make it easier to predict who would be squealing like a pig. Maybe have one of the guys biting on a pillow before the match starts.

It's difficult for me to accept this, but it would appear that I've finally encountered a man who doesn't get enough gay porn in his life.

Serious question about MMA... It's scripted right?

It would suffice as a substitute for gay roleplay videos, if you're asking for the reason I think you're asking.

Please get help before we have to put your children in foster care. You can beat this addiction. GR is here for you, brah.



FON

[Not a hacker]

FON, I agree with what you are saying about boxing alone not being enough to get it done in MMA, but you may be under valuing boxing as a key discipline just a tad. In modern MMA striking is a very valuable commodity, and punches are probably the most commonly used strike in MMA. A good shooter will definitely get inside the defences of an average boxer and ground and pound his arse into a bloody pulp, but good boxing skills would be in any well rounded cage fighter's kit bag.

[lorenzoinoc]

FON, I agree with what you are saying about boxing alone not being enough to get it done in MMA, but you may be under valuing boxing as a key discpline. In modern MMA any striking is a very valuable commodity, and punches are probably the most commonly used strike.

Along with slapping, biting and hair-pulling.

[Horseballs]

Along with slapping, biting and hair-pulling.

Zo, I'm assuming he meant donkey punching.

[lorenzoinoc]

Zo, I'm assuming he meant donkey punching.

Followed by vicegrips on the nutsack.

[FreakOfNature]

FON, I agree with what you are saying about boxing alone not being enough to get it done in MMA, but you may be under valuing boxing as a key discipline just a tad. In modern MMA striking is a very valuable commodity, and punches are probably the most commonly used strike in MMA. A good shooter will definitely get inside the defences of an average boxer and ground and pound his arse into a bloody pulp, but good boxing skills would be in any well rounded cage fighter's kit bag.

I'm not trying to undervalue boxing in MMA, just trying to put some context on how the usefulness of boxing in MMA is largely dependent on how dangerous a fighter's ground game is. If a fighter can own on the ground, his opponents will be more likely to choose to stay on the feet and trade strikes.

Take Kimbo Slice for example. The guy has incredible punching power, and great accuracy when he gets to throw, but his ground game is terrible, no takedown defense and absolutely no offense on the ground - as such he gets beat by being taken to the ground and outwrestled or submitted. You need a good ground game to keep the fight standing. Having little more than good boxing ability only means a guy will be fighting the entire fight on his back. There can be no question that James Toney is about as gifted and skilled a boxer as has ever stepped into the octagon, but he had exactly ZERO offense in his fight with Couture because boxers don't typically fight with their backs on the mat.

Again, not trying to devalue striking in MMA, I'm merely putting the utility of striking in MMA in proper context. Having a good TD defense, and having good wrestling and jiu-jitsu is the key to unlocking striking opportunities, IMO.



FON

[Not a hacker]

I'm not trying to undervalue boxing in MMA, just trying to put some context on how the usefulness of boxing in MMA is largely dependent on how dangerous a fighter's ground game is. If a fighter can own on the ground, his opponents will be more likely to choose to stay on the feet and trade strikes.

Take Kimbo Slice for example. The guy has incredible punching power, and great accuracy when he gets to throw, but his ground game is terrible, no takedown defense and absolutely no offense on the ground - as such he gets beat by being taken to the ground and outwrestled or submitted. You need a good ground game to keep the fight standing. Having little more than good boxing ability only means a guy will be fighting the entire fight on his back. There can be no question that James Toney is about as gifted and skilled a boxer as has ever stepped into the octagon, but he had exactly ZERO offense in his fight with Couture because boxers don't typically fight with their backs on the mat.

Again, not trying to devalue striking in MMA, I'm merely putting the utility of striking in MMA in proper context. Having a good TD defense, and having good wrestling and jiu-jitsu is the key to unlocking striking opportunities, IMO.



FON

Agreed, a good boxer will get owned by any run of the mill MMA fighter if he doesn't have a ground game. Toney getting owned by Couture virtually ended any debate about who would beat who in a real street fight between boxers and MMA fighters. From what I can see the most valuable asset to have in MMA is superior wrestling. Most of the top MMA fighters have black belts in ju-jitsu, but it's the guys with collegiate wrestling backgrounds who dominate most divisions. If you look at the dominant champions, most of them have good amatuer wrestling backgrounds. Velasquez and GSP are probably the two best wrestlers in UFC and they are close to unbeatable. With the great strikers they can be hit and miss, sometimes knocking opponents cold, but sometimes being taken to the ground and beat up. Velasquez and GSP don't just win their matches, they use their wrestling to completely dominate and man handle their opponents without ever looking in any danger. They just strangle the life out of them, then finish them off with good strikes or ground and pound. But for the reasons you have stated, their striking is only so effective because it comes off the back of dominant wrestling. Even the new champ Bones, who is a sensational striker, comes from a stellar amatuer wrestling background. I think it is probably easier for a good wrestler to pick up striking than it is for a good striker to learn the ground game, if only for the fact that striking comes on the back of good wrestling, not the other way round.

[Kiwi Player]

Bernard Hopkins telling it like it is ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG2fF...yer_detailpage

[Kiwi Player]

In light of last night's "astounding" defeat of IBA Heavyweight Champ James "Lights Out" Toney at the hands of 47 year old MMA veteran Randy "The Natural" Couture, in which Toney threw and landed exactly ZERO punches before being taken to the ground and choked into submission by one of the most elementary MMA submission holds - the dreaded and terrifying ARM TRIANGLE CHOKE.


That fight was so much awesome.

Just watched it for the first time. After approx 16 seconds Coutere tackles Tony then lies on top of him for the next 3 minutes. Really, a 47 year old semi naked white guy lying on top of an out of shape, semi naked 42 year old black guy for 3 minutes of continuous non action is your idea of awesome?

[NiftyNiblick]

I'm with the hardcore conventional boxing fans who don't care for MMA.

Boxing is sport. MMA is street crime with rules.

I'll discuss MMA first. It was borderline interesting, albeit not particularly entertaining, when a small guy like Gracie could don a gi with black belt, get a huge grappler in the guard, uninterupted, for about a half hour or more, wear him out until he was completely exhausted, and then choke him out. Again, not entertaining, but interesting.

With the new MMA rules, it's just bad boxing until somebody goes down and gets pounced upon.

Now look at boxing: the only legal target area is the front half of the top half of the body. That's all you can attack, and that's all you have to defend.

My brother was quite accomplished at it, but just screwing around in the gym, I can tell you that you can't lay a glove on a trained boxer's head or body--not even lay a glove--unless you really know what you're doing. Nor can you block his attack if you don't completely understand the geometry of the angles he's taking.

In MMA, which I'm sure is very demanding in its own way, you have to become accomplished in too many dicilplines to be truly world class in any of them. It's like knowing how to play ten or twenty musical instruments but you can't possibly practice any of them enough to get to Carnegie hall.

Hey, we like what we like, but to me, boxing at the world class level is art and science rolled into one. Throw in the drama of courage and determination--the contest lasts long enough to reveal these things--and you've got something I've enjoyed for about sixty years.

[Kiwi Player]

I'm with the hardcore conventional boxing fans who don't care for MMA.

Boxing is sport. MMA is street crime with rules.

I'll discuss MMA first. It was borderline interesting, albeit not particularly entertaining, when a small guy like Gracie could don a gi with black belt, get a huge grappler in the guard, uninterupted, for about a half hour or more, wear him out until he was completely exhausted, and then choke him out. Again, not entertaining, but interesting.

With the new MMA rules, it's just bad boxing until somebody goes down and gets pounced upon.

Now look at boxing: the only legal target area is the front half of the top half of the body. That's all you can attack, and that's all you have to defend.

My brother was quite accomplished at it, but just screwing around in the gym, I can tell you that you can't lay a glove on a trained boxer's head or body--not even lay a glove--unless you really know what you're doing. Nor can you block his attack if you don't completely understand the geometry of the angles he's taking.

In MMA, which I'm sure is very demanding in its own way, you have to become accomplished in too many dicilplines to be truly world class in any of them. It's like knowing how to play ten or twenty musical instruments but you can't possibly practice any of them enough to get to Carnegie hall.

Hey, we like what we like, but to me, boxing at the world class level is art and science rolled into one. Throw in the drama of courage and determination--the contest lasts long enough to reveal these things--and you've got something I've enjoyed for about sixty years.

Well said.

My main problem with it is it such a boring depraved spectacle. I don't find watching two semi naked men lying on top of each other particularly entertaining.