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  1. #1
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    Why "flatten the shaft?"

    We must do that or swing OTT, bring it down from outside the target line and swipe across the ball--losing MOST of our effective clubhead speed, impossible to compress the ball like the pros do.

    Humans are all built the same-- and when we just take it up and try to bring it down on the same plane, the clubhead actually flies OUTSIDE the target line and over the swing plane.

    So good players keep it on plane by taking it up almost vertical when their arms are shoulder level, and then rolling arms and turning further to place the club and hands "behind" them so they can keep it on plane during the downswing.

    Watch any good player from the back. You will see his clubhead appear over his head, then move straight back from the ball as he flatten the shaft and points the butt of the club OUTSIDE the target line through the ball. They all do that. Tiger, Furyk, Hogan, Player, and they young players like Fowler and his contemporaries. If you doubt that, have any teaching pro bring up their swings and step through the views from the back.

    It feels like we are making the clubhead travel in a "figure 8" pattern. it goes up and then behind us as we move to our front leg and downswing "down and under" to accelerate the clubhead through from the inside. Our dominant arm elbow seems to come straight down, traveling "behind" our back hip. It doesn't really because the hips is turning toward the target. But the weight shift and hip turn are vital components. If you fail to shift, the whole thing won't happen.

    Take lessons.

    Larry

  2. #2
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    WHY IS A 17 HANDICAP TEACHING US GOLF?! There are low handicappers on this site, along with scratch golfers, and pros. Let them talk and LISTEN and LEARN.
    Golf

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by qtong
    WHY IS A 17 HANDICAP TEACHING US GOLF?! There are low handicappers on this site, along with scratch golfers, and pros. Let them talk and LISTEN and LEARN.
    I quit posting scores months ago. My index is meaningless.

    "low handicap" can be achieved with an ugly swing. Just play enough to learn to recover and get up and down. Every club has a dozen low single digits who have never taken a lesson and their swing looks like it.

    I am NOT interested in that. In fact a few years ago, just to prove a point, I played every day for weeks and got my handicap down to 6-- with a HORRIBLE OTT golf swing. I hit it sideways, learned to recover, became a magician with a wedge, and became a decent putter. I learned to score. SO WHAT??? What does that mean? That wasn't "hard" at all and thus it was not an accomplishment. NOTHING like learning to play handball at the "B" tournament level, Tennis at the 4.5 level, or to read music or play a guitar or piano decently. It was too easy, like racketball.

    I want to hit fairways and greens in regulation. I want to do it because you can't do it!! Because hitting fairways and greens in regulation and swinging correctly is nearly impossible for millions, I want to do it!!! Like Hogan, who played golf without counting putts later in his life, I want to hit fairways and greens because it is hard--a real accomplishment that few can do.

    See ya out there.

    Now you know what makes Larry tick.

    Larry
    Last edited by Larryrsf; 10-09-2010 at 05:35 PM.

  4. #4
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    Well, I'd like to bang a bunch of actresses but I guess I'll just stumble along getting the local talent. Happy with the local and know that the others are probably out of my reach. Kind of analogy to your swing thoughts. Who gives a shite how you put the ball in the hole as long as it gets in the hole. If I could swing a club with my dick and make par its still a par no matter how it looked getting there.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    I quit posting scores months ago. My index is meaningless.

    "low handicap" can be achieved with an ugly swing. Just play enough to learn to recover and get up and down. Every club has a dozen low single digits who have never taken a lesson and their swing looks like it.

    I am NOT interested in that. In fact a few years ago, just to prove a point, I played every day for weeks and got my handicap down to 6-- with a HORRIBLE OTT golf swing. I hit it sideways, learned to recover, became a magician with a wedge, and became a decent putter. I learned to score. SO WHAT??? What does that mean? That wasn't "hard" at all and thus it was not an accomplishment. NOTHING like learning to play handball at the "B" tournament level, Tennis at the 4.5 level, or to read music or play a guitar or piano decently. It was too easy, like racketball.

    I want to hit fairways and greens in regulation. I want to do it because you can't do it!! Because hitting fairways and greens in regulation and swinging correctly is nearly impossible for millions, I want to do it!!! Like Hogan, who played golf without counting putts later in his life, I want to hit fairways and greens because it is hard--a real accomplishment that few can do.

    See ya out there.

    Now you know what makes Larry tick.

    Larry
    WOW Larry that's very impressive. I admire your great dedication to perfect the swing whilst disdaining scrambling with an ugly OTT swing which is what 99% of amateurs would do.

    Getting down to a 6 handicap with that poor OTT swing is also very impressive. You must have been deadly with your chipping and putting. How much lower do you think you could have gotten your handicap if you'd stuck with that approach?
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    We must do that or swing OTT, bring it down from outside the target line and swipe across the ball--losing MOST of our effective clubhead speed, impossible to compress the ball like the pros do.
    What is wrong with simply swing the club up and down on the same path?

    Humans are all built the same-- and when we just take it up and try to bring it down on the same plane, the clubhead actually flies OUTSIDE the target line and over the swing plane.
    Sorry, but you're wrong. That may be what happens for you, but I do it all the time.

    So good players keep it on plane by taking it up almost vertical when their arms are shoulder level, and then rolling arms and turning further to place the club and hands "behind" them so they can keep it on plane during the downswing.
    Almost no good players have the club "almost vertical" when their arms are at shoulder level in the backswing. I challenge you to produce any video that shows otherwise.

    Watch any good player from the back. You will see his clubhead appear over his head, then move straight back from the ball as he flatten the shaft and points the butt of the club OUTSIDE the target line through the ball. They all do that. Tiger, Furyk, Hogan, Player, and they young players like Fowler and his contemporaries. If you doubt that, have any teaching pro bring up their swings and step through the views from the back.
    Sorry, Larry, but that's just nonsense.

    It feels like we are making the clubhead travel in a "figure 8" pattern. it goes up and then behind us as we move to our front leg and downswing "down and under" to accelerate the clubhead through from the inside. Our dominant arm elbow seems to come straight down, traveling "behind" our back hip. It doesn't really because the hips is turning toward the target. But the weight shift and hip turn are vital components. If you fail to shift, the whole thing won't happen.
    Larry: you're being given a drill to correct a fault in your swing.

    That's all.

    Take lessons.
    If that works for you: great. But the lessons I take -- if I take them; I've gotten down to an honest single digit handicap working on my own -- won't be lessons to cure your flaws.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    I quit posting scores months ago. My index is meaningless.

    "low handicap" can be achieved with an ugly swing. Just play enough to learn to recover and get up and down. Every club has a dozen low single digits who have never taken a lesson and their swing looks like it.

    I am NOT interested in that. In fact a few years ago, just to prove a point, I played every day for weeks and got my handicap down to 6-- with a HORRIBLE OTT golf swing. I hit it sideways, learned to recover, became a magician with a wedge, and became a decent putter. I learned to score. SO WHAT??? What does that mean? That wasn't "hard" at all and thus it was not an accomplishment. NOTHING like learning to play handball at the "B" tournament level, Tennis at the 4.5 level, or to read music or play a guitar or piano decently. It was too easy, like racketball.
    The only way your handicap was ever a 6 was if you cheated.

    I want to hit fairways and greens in regulation. I want to do it because you can't do it!! Because hitting fairways and greens in regulation and swinging correctly is nearly impossible for millions, I want to do it!!! Like Hogan, who played golf without counting putts later in his life, I want to hit fairways and greens because it is hard--a real accomplishment that few can do.

    See ya out there.

    Now you know what makes Larry tick.
    Pop quiz time, again:

    Who said, "In a recent playing lesson with a teaching pro, he said my swing is sufficient to play scratch golf; I don't need more work on that except to fine tune short to middle iron approaches. My full swing works. I can usually drive it 280 and straight 14 times per round. But driving does not equal scoring.", and when did he say it?
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  8. #8
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    The shaft flattening should not be something you consciously do. It's a side effect of doing things in sync and even then, too much causes trouble. Think of it like your dementia medication. Take the whole bottle, you're dead. Take one pill at a time, you're usually ok.

    Manually doing it will lead to being under plane. Hold it, you'll hit blocks, shanks, and slices way off the planet. Try and flip it, yeah you'll catch it every once in a while and the ball'll take off but the odds are you'll hit lots of snap hooks and pulls. Incredibly hard to be consistent.

  9. #9
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    It seems like Larry goes full circle with his pet swing projects that "We all must" learn to do.

    Wasn't "Flatten the shaft" the topic of numerous threads and even a swing video about a year ago?

    Recently "Turn, Post, Swing" has been his pet project with special emphasis on the "Post". Taking a divot was also a hot topic but only a very short term one. Now he's all the way back to "Flattening the shaft".

    Maybe "We must Swing the Clubhead" is next?
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    It seems like Larry goes full circle with his pet swing projects that "We all must" learn to do.

    Wasn't "Flatten the shaft" the topic of numerous threads and even a swing video about a year ago?

    Recently "Turn, Post, Swing" has been his pet project with special emphasis on the "Post". Taking a divot was also a hot topic but only a very short term one. Now he's all the way back to "Flattening the shaft".

    Maybe "We must Swing the Clubhead" is next?
    Flinging poo at passing parades from the shadows has made a resurgence. I'm pretty good at that but only aspire to be the master poo thrower to level you have achieved. Luckily Sundays are my night for jacking off while Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays are for throwing feces. I'll be sure and load my pockets tomorrow morning for the passing lary parade.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    WOW Larry that's very impressive. I admire your great dedication to perfect the swing whilst disdaining scrambling with an ugly OTT swing which is what 99% of amateurs would do.

    Getting down to a 6 handicap with that poor OTT swing is also very impressive. You must have been deadly with your chipping and putting. How much lower do you think you could have gotten your handicap if you'd stuck with that approach?
    Who cares? I want to accomplish the part of this sport that is HARD, that almost nobody can do, especially those who started late in life like I did.

    So I want to hit fairways and greens. Duh. NOBODY who started late can do that-- the only guys who can tee it up and hit fairways and greens all the way around 18 holes are those who started young and learned a real golf swing. Except me.

    See ya out there.

    Larry

  12. #12
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    Well, nice job hi-jacking a serious golf thread to talk about jacking off and throwing fesces. Dorkman's probably now unconscious and lying in a puddle of his own vomit.

    If that hasn't done it then perhaps I'll start a thread on Draw Bridging.
    GR lives...

  13. #13
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    The only thing I look forward to now is for Larry to have a massive heart attack.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mward2002
    The shaft flattening should not be something you consciously do. It's a side effect of doing things in sync and even then, too much causes trouble. Think of it like your dementia medication. Take the whole bottle, you're dead. Take one pill at a time, you're usually ok.

    Manually doing it will lead to being under plane. Hold it, you'll hit blocks, shanks, and slices way off the planet. Try and flip it, yeah you'll catch it every once in a while and the ball'll take off but the odds are you'll hit lots of snap hooks and pulls. Incredibly hard to be consistent.
    Absolutely correct!! Wow. Thanks.

    I had an accidental lesson today from a vendor on a driving range. He was selling "Tour Lock" a device they insert inside your club shafts to customize them to let you hit ball straighter more consistently. Mostly they add weight in the handle or upper part of the shaft to slow your hands. Works.

    But the head guy was bored early this morning. He watched me a while then walked down and spent an hour with me. He had been a +++ level and pro tournament player in Las Vegas--He knew how to learn and how to teach me to make the right backswing moves. I was close trying to force the flattening move, but not quite! He saw what I was trying to do. He has personally worked with David Leadbetter in golf swing teaching.

    Turns out that what we must do is take it back to vertical when our arms are about horizontal. A quick wrist set. Many good players exaggerate while training and push the clubhead far outside the target line as they keep their hands over their shoes to ensure that when they are fully turned back the butt of the club is pointing down no further out than our toe line. Make a full shoulder turn, then when we swing our arms, as you say, the clubshaft will automatically flatten and approach the ball from the inside. There is no need to force that. It just happens.

    Basically If you backswing outside, you will downswing inside. If you backswing inside, you will downswing outside-- OVER THE TOP.

    This guy was Mike Weir's roommate at BYU on several pro tours. He told me the reason Mike does that pre-swing routine we have all seen. He taught me to do that same early set and horizontal club shaft alignment check. I do that twice, then swing. It works.

    Good stuff. I hit a basket doing that--I can do it! I need to hit a few more to ingrain it.

    This was an almost priceless experience. It will permanently change my golf swing. We enjoy an immense advantage here in Southern California. We're pretty lucky that many great golfers want to stand out on our driving ranges and sell their stuff. They are willing to help us. Free lessons from touring pro level golfers are good!

    Larry
    Last edited by Larryrsf; 10-10-2010 at 06:32 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaz1975
    The only thing I look forward to now is for Larry to have a massive heart attack.
    Yaz, are you comfortable waiting until Obama's re-elected and the Dems win all the elections in California, or are you hoping for sooner?
    GR lives...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Who cares? I want to accomplish the part of this sport that is HARD, that almost nobody can do, especially those who started late in life like I did.
    Doesn't the fact that you go round in circles telling everyone that whatever thing your instructor is having you work on is the only thing that matters make any impact on you?

    You're a jackass.

    So I want to hit fairways and greens. Duh.
    And you've claimed a half a dozen times that I can easily quote that you've achieved that goal. All lies.

    NOBODY who started late can do that-- the only guys who can tee it up and hit fairways and greens all the way around 18 holes are those who started young and learned a real golf swing. Except me.
    You can't do it. You just admitted as much.

    I don't worry too much about fairways and greens, myself. I worry about score.

    See ya out there.
    No, you won't. Because you're too big a coward to live up to the challenges you've made.

    In your own words: put up or shut up.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Absolutely correct!! Wow. Thanks.

    I had an accidental lesson today from a vendor on a driving range. He was selling "Tour Lock" a device they insert inside your club shafts to customize them to let you hit ball straighter more consistently. Mostly they add weight in the handle or upper part of the shaft to slow your hands. Works.
    You mean "worked for you in one quick test", right?

    But the head guy was bored early this morning. He watched me a while then walked down and spent an hour with me. He had been a +++ level and pro tournament player in Las Vegas--He knew how to learn and how to teach me to make the right backswing moves. I was close trying to force the flattening move, but not quite! He saw what I was trying to do. He has personally worked with David Leadbetter in golf swing teaching.
    LOL

    Of course he has, Larry. Every single pro you've ever quote is a "+++ level and pro tournament player"

    Turns out that what we must do is take it back to vertical when our arms are about horizontal.
    It turns out that only one or two top level pros do anything remotely like that.

    A quick wrist set. Many good players exaggerate while training and push the clubhead far outside the target line as they keep their hands over their shoes to ensure that when they are fully turned back the butt of the club is pointing down no further out than our toe line.
    Who are a few of these "many". Let's see the video.

    Make a full shoulder turn, then when we swing our arms, as you say, the clubshaft will automatically flatten and approach the ball from the inside. There is no need to force that. It just happens.
    Every single thing you've ever preached has "just happened", Larry. Yet you still can't do it yourself.

    Basically If you backswing outside, you will downswing inside. If you backswing inside, you will downswing outside-- OVER THE TOP.
    And if you swing back on the correct line, you can swing down on that same line. For you, this is huge progress.

    This guy was Mike Weir's roommate at BYU on several pro tours. He told me the reason Mike does that pre-swing routine we have all seen. He taught me to do that same early set and horizontal club shaft alignment check. I do that twice, then swing. It works.
    How many times have you said "it works" about things you've abandoned 6 weeks later?

    Good stuff. I hit a basket doing that--I can do it! I need to hit a few more to ingrain it.
    And then you'll hit "all the fairways and most of the greens", right?

    This was an almost priceless experience. It will permanently change my golf swing. We enjoy an immense advantage here in Southern California. We're pretty lucky that many great golfers want to stand out on our driving ranges and sell their stuff. They are willing to help us. Free lessons from touring pro level golfers are good!
    They're pretty lucky too: they get suckers like you walking by ever few minutes.
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  18. #18
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    I think the Larry RSF/Alan G Baker paradigm is starting to reach new levels of symbiosis.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Larry, I am planning on a personal lesson with Dr Jim Suttie here in a few weeks. Would you like me to confirm your outrageous antics about thrusting that hip forward? I probably shouldn't, I'd just ens up looking like an idiot in front of one of the best instructors in golf. Oh wait, I don't have to ask him, Butch Harmon already discussed that with Tiger woods:

    Golf

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by qtong
    Larry, I am planning on a personal lesson with Dr Jim Suttie here in a few weeks. Would you like me to confirm your outrageous antics about thrusting that hip forward? I probably shouldn't, I'd just ens up looking like an idiot in front of one of the best instructors in golf. Oh wait, I don't have to ask him, Butch Harmon already discussed that with Tiger woods:

    QT,
    Good video. This is one of the quotes I was looking for in response to tigers old swing. They clearly talk about longevity is the reason for him making swing changes. So one could infer that his old swing was causing him physical issues.
    Last edited by poe4soul; 10-11-2010 at 07:09 AM.

  21. #21
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    He echos my thoughts within the first 3 minutes or so of the video. If you lay the shaft down, you're going to get it stuck behind you and have to flip it to hit it online. Good luck being consistent with that Larry.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by qtong
    Larry, I am planning on a personal lesson with Dr Jim Suttie here in a few weeks. Would you like me to confirm your outrageous antics about thrusting that hip forward? I probably shouldn't, I'd just ens up looking like an idiot in front of one of the best instructors in golf. Oh wait, I don't have to ask him, Butch Harmon already discussed that with Tiger woods:

    The interesting part about this is Foley is now integrating some features of his old swing. Like a bigger lateral slide with his hip before the turn. So Lary isn't he only one going in circles from one swing style to another.

    qtong, you might be surprised what answer you get when you take the lesson. I'm not familiar with Dr. Jim Suttie or what swing he teaches but the lateral slide is present in many swing sequences. SnT for instance prescribes a substantial lateral slide with the hips as a way to get the shoulder behind the hips. The shoulders never move back so the hips have to move forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    We must do that or swing OTT, bring it down from outside the target line and swipe across the ball--losing MOST of our effective clubhead speed, impossible to compress the ball like the pros do.

    Humans are all built the same-- and when we just take it up and try to bring it down on the same plane, the clubhead actually flies OUTSIDE the target line and over the swing plane.

    So good players keep it on plane by taking it up almost vertical when their arms are shoulder level, and then rolling arms and turning further to place the club and hands "behind" them so they can keep it on plane during the downswing.

    Watch any good player from the back. You will see his clubhead appear over his head, then move straight back from the ball as he flatten the shaft and points the butt of the club OUTSIDE the target line through the ball. They all do that. Tiger, Furyk, Hogan, Player, and they young players like Fowler and his contemporaries. If you doubt that, have any teaching pro bring up their swings and step through the views from the back.

    It feels like we are making the clubhead travel in a "figure 8" pattern. it goes up and then behind us as we move to our front leg and downswing "down and under" to accelerate the clubhead through from the inside. Our dominant arm elbow seems to come straight down, traveling "behind" our back hip. It doesn't really because the hips is turning toward the target. But the weight shift and hip turn are vital components. If you fail to shift, the whole thing won't happen.

    Take lessons.

    Larry
    I've had all of my shafts spine aligned, blue printed, pured and then sterilized and disinfected. But I never have and never will have them flattened. That's just wrong.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mward2002
    He echos my thoughts within the first 3 minutes or so of the video. If you lay the shaft down, you're going to get it stuck behind you and have to flip it to hit it online. Good luck being consistent with that Larry.
    I think AB is correct in saying that Lary's instructor has given him a feeling of being flat. If he has a loop in his swing of inside to OTT then any movement in the opposite direction is going to make him feel like the shaft is very flat and way behind him. Lary has the mistaken idea that any lesson he has gotten is meant for the entire world. Most instructors will not let another student listen in on somebody else's lesson because what is medicine for one person's swing and feelings is poison for another's. That is unless you are taking lessons for 2 bit PGA has beens like Lary is. Then they only teach one swing style fits all and are incapable of understanding the relationships of different swing types.

    I too have the same affliction tiger has with hips that outrace my shoulders. Probably from playing soccer my entire life. I have to feel like I'm late with my hips to make a good swing or I can get stuck and result in big pushes or flips. As Tiger says when you connect with this move the club has tremendous speed because of the width in the swing but it's hard to control consistently. It's an early extension but it's not due to weak glutes as TPI suggests but it's a sequencing issue I fight.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    I think the Larry RSF/Alan G Baker paradigm is starting to reach new levels of symbiosis.
    Why do you read his diatribes? I don't and they are aimed at me. His posts are actually a pathetic cry for help-- from someone who would love to know something about the golf swing-- but can't afford either lessons or to join a golf club. So he says that those who CAN afford those things, those who are actually learning about golf from credible authorities are "wrong." Is that pathetic or what? Usually I post and then at least two or three of his posts appear. Apparently he reads what I wrote and goes into a frenzy and frantically starts typing BS. Over and over and over again. Why doesn't he realize we are all laughing AT him.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    I think AB is correct in saying that Lary's instructor has given him a feeling of being flat. If he has a loop in his swing of inside to OTT then any movement in the opposite direction is going to make him feel like the shaft is very flat and way behind him. Lary has the mistaken idea that any lesson he has gotten is meant for the entire world. Most instructors will not let another student listen in on somebody else's lesson because what is medicine for one person's swing and feelings is poison for another's. That is unless you are taking lessons for 2 bit PGA has beens like Lary is. Then they only teach one swing style fits all and are incapable of understanding the relationships of different swing types.

    I too have the same affliction tiger has with hips that outrace my shoulders. Probably from playing soccer my entire life. I have to feel like I'm late with my hips to make a good swing or I can get stuck and result in big pushes or flips. As Tiger says when you connect with this move the club has tremendous speed because of the width in the swing but it's hard to control consistently. It's an early extension but it's not due to weak glutes as TPI suggests but it's a sequencing issue I fight.
    I agree with that young pro that it is better NOT to consciously flatten the shaft--and I will stop doing that and let it happen naturally from a vertical near-top position, when my shoulders are almost fully turned and arms about horizontal. The shaft being VERTICAL with the butt pointing inside our toe line sets up the flattening we see as the golfer turns his hips toward the target. Modern instruction teaches "quiet" legs and hips because that is the way most of the young guys coming up swing. "Turn in a barrel" as was taught 60+ years ago, (Percy Boomer) is a better way to achieve consistency than "driving" or consciously moving our legs. It is a more efficient way bring the clubhead back to the ball and beyond.

    This "2bit PGA pro" was Mike Weir's BYU roommate. He won every tournament in high school, several more in collega and won won the California State Amateur championship a few years ago before he turned pro. He personally works with David Leadbetter.

    Larry
    Last edited by Larryrsf; 10-11-2010 at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Why do you read his diatribes? I don't and they are aimed at me. His posts are actually a pathetic cry for help-- from someone who would love to know something about the golf swing-- but can't afford either lessons or to join a golf club. So he says that those who CAN afford those things, those who are actually learning about golf from credible authorities are "wrong."
    Your posting history says you're wrong, Larry. Not me.

    Is that pathetic or what? Usually I post and then at least two or three of his posts appear. Apparently he reads what I wrote and goes into a frenzy and frantically starts typing BS. Over and over and over again. Why doesn't he realize we are all laughing AT him.
    "Who's 'we', white man?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Modern instruction teaches "quiet" legs and hips because that is the way most of the young guys coming up swing.
    Which is why you do that weird, very unquiet, thing with your hips, right Larry?

    "Turn in a barrel" as was taught 60+ years ago, (Percy Boomer) is a better way to achieve consistency than "driving" or consciously moving our legs. It is a more efficient way bring the clubhead back to the ball and beyond.
    And you abandoned "turn in a barrel" years ago... ...so you were wrong, then, right?

    Will you be wrong when you (inevitably) abandon it again?

    This "2bit PGA pro" won the California State Amateur championship a few years ago before he turned pro. He personally works with David Leadbetter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Why do you read his diatribes? I don't and they are aimed at me. His posts are actually a pathetic cry for help-- from someone who would love to know something about the golf swing-- but can't afford either lessons or to join a golf club. So he says that those who CAN afford those things, those who are actually learning about golf from credible authorities are "wrong." Is that pathetic or what? Usually I post and then at least two or three of his posts appear. Apparently he reads what I wrote and goes into a frenzy and frantically starts typing BS. Over and over and over again. Why doesn't he realize we are all laughing AT him.

    Larry

    Who are your students, oh wise golf guru?

    You know dick-all about the golf swing as evidenced by the fact that you're TAKING the lessons, not GIVING them. If you knew a damn thing about the golf swing you'd be MAKING money at golf lessons instead of spending thousands of dollars per year on them without ever showing a lick of improvement.

    Fukking golf clubs, how do they work?

    What does this mean??



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    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature
    Who are your students, oh wise golf guru?

    You know dick-all about the golf swing as evidenced by the fact that you're TAKING the lessons, not GIVING them. If you knew a damn thing about the golf swing you'd be MAKING money at golf lessons instead of spending thousands of dollars per year on them without ever showing a lick of improvement.

    Fukking golf clubs, how do they work?

    What does this mean??



    FON
    In one of Larry's recent posts he revealed that he no longer cared about score. He stated that the only thing that mattered to him was hitting fairways and greens. Personally, I don't understand that approach at all because it has nothing to do with reality. I've met guys that spend tons of money on lessons and love to talk about it but their scores don't improve. It makes sense because hitting driver and irons add up to less than 50% of the game. That's what makes golf so great...alll of the different pieces that need all come together for a good score.

    Anyone who's sole focus is on the golf swing is someone that is either confused or addicted to taking lessons and/or reading about it. Nobody cares about fairways and greens. Golf is a game about getting around 18 holes with the lowest score possible. Perfecting your golf swing has very little to do with achieving that goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    In one of Larry's recent posts he revealed that he no longer cared about score. He stated that the only thing that mattered to him was hitting fairways and greens. Personally, I don't understand that approach at all because it has nothing to do with reality. I've met guys that spend tons of money on lessons and love to talk about it but their scores don't improve. It makes sense because hitting driver and irons add up to less than 50% of the game. That's what makes golf so great...alll of the different pieces that need all come together for a good score.

    Anyone who's sole focus is on the golf swing is someone that is either confused or addicted to taking lessons and/or reading about it. Nobody cares about fairways and greens. Golf is a game about getting around 18 holes with the lowest score possible. Perfecting your golf swing has very little to do with achieving that goal.
    Larry's claims about not caring about score coincide perfectly with his inability any longer to convince anyone that his scores bore any relationship to reality.

    Since then, he's tried to prove he's better than rest of us by claiming to be more dedicated to improvement...

    ...because there's no actual improvement to show us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker
    Larry's claims about not caring about score coincide perfectly with his inability any longer to convince anyone that his scores bore any relationship to reality.

    Since then, he's tried to prove he's better than rest of us by claiming to be more dedicated to improvement...

    ...because there's no actual improvement to show us.

    It is kind of odd to see someone so concerened with the golf swing who never talks about score. It's like trying to perfect your dart throwing motion without ever playing darts. Golf is about scoring...hello.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    I agree with that young pro that it is better NOT to consciously flatten the shaft--and I will stop doing that and let it happen naturally from a vertical near-top position, when my shoulders are almost fully turned and arms about horizontal. The shaft being VERTICAL with the butt pointing inside our toe line sets up the flattening we see as the golfer turns his hips toward the target. Modern instruction teaches "quiet" legs and hips because that is the way most of the young guys coming up swing. "Turn in a barrel" as was taught 60+ years ago, (Percy Boomer) is a better way to achieve consistency than "driving" or consciously moving our legs. It is a more efficient way bring the clubhead back to the ball and beyond.

    This "2bit PGA pro" was Mike Weir's BYU roommate. He won every tournament in high school, several more in collega and won won the California State Amateur championship a few years ago before he turned pro. He personally works with David Leadbetter.

    Larry
    I agree with one thing. If you get in the bolded position there is no way your are coming OTT without dislocating something. Why on god's green earth would you want to set yourself up for a big loop de loop swing? Maybe I'm confused. Could post a video of what you are trying to accomplish because I don't get it. I'm sure I'm not he only one here that is having problems following your description. Please make it a slow motion video so we can understand the entire process. Could you please narrate it as well? I know I'm asking for much but your videos are worth a thousand of your postings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    In one of Larry's recent posts he revealed that he no longer cared about score. He stated that the only thing that mattered to him was hitting fairways and greens. Personally, I don't understand that approach at all because it has nothing to do with reality. I've met guys that spend tons of money on lessons and love to talk about it but their scores don't improve. It makes sense because hitting driver and irons add up to less than 50% of the game. That's what makes golf so great...alll of the different pieces that need all come together for a good score.

    Anyone who's sole focus is on the golf swing is someone that is either confused or addicted to taking lessons and/or reading about it. Nobody cares about fairways and greens. Golf is a game about getting around 18 holes with the lowest score possible. Perfecting your golf swing has very little to do with achieving that goal.
    I care only about developing a good golf swing because that is hard-- and because almost nobody who started late can do it. I want to accomplish something--

    I want to do what I did in handball through 10+ years of very hard work. I became a decent "B" level tournament player. Anyone who knows handball knows that is rarefied territory.

    I want do do in golf what I did in tennis, which was to play 4.5 level singles. I worked for 15 years to get that good, a zillion lessons, and near weekly clinics lasting hours that evening. I went out nearly every evening and hit balls against a wall or served basket after basket. I played both Saturday and Sunday.

    Now I want to do what Hogan thought was far more worthwhile than simply scoring. He wanted to hit fairways and greens. He knew and we all know that every club has dozens of golfers who play every day and finally learn to score--even after chopping horribly, missing most fairways and every green. They get good at recovering and getting up and down. That ain't golf to me. So don't tell me what you "shot" but tell me how many fairways and greens you hit.

    See ya out there.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    I care only about developing a good golf swing because that is hard-- and because almost nobody who started late can do it. I want to accomplish something--

    I want to do what I did in handball through 10+ years of very hard work. I became a decent "B" level tournament player. Anyone who knows handball knows that is rarefied territory.

    I want do do in golf what I did in tennis, which was to play 4.5 level singles. I worked for 15 years to get that good, a zillion lessons, and near weekly clinics lasting hours that evening. I went out nearly every evening and hit balls against a wall or served basket after basket. I played both Saturday and Sunday.

    Now I want to do what Hogan thought was far more worthwhile than simply scoring. He wanted to hit fairways and greens. He knew and we all know that every club has dozens of golfers who play every day and finally learn to score--even after chopping horribly, missing most fairways and every green. They get good at recovering and getting up and down. That ain't golf to me. So don't tell me what you "shot" but tell me how many fairways and greens you hit.

    See ya out there.

    Larry
    Hogan never thought for a moment that scoring came second or that anything else was more important in golf than score. I've read his books. He fought an evil hook in his early career and that's why he changed his entire swing to promote a fade and basically eliminate the possibility of a hook. Hogan wanted to hit more fairways and greens so that he could score better...especially when his putting started to go.

    No club is filled with players that chop it around, never hit fairways and greens and score well. I've belonged to several clubs and the best players all have decent swings and know how to score. The best players also play within their limits and can think around the course.

    What NONE of the best players at these clubs do is spend hours on the range or on lessons to count the number of fairways they hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    I care only about developing a good golf swing because that is hard-- and because almost nobody who started late can do it. I want to accomplish something--
    You care about one thing and one thing alone: having something to brag about to help you with your petty insecurities.

    I want to do what I did in handball through 10+ years of very hard work. I became a decent "B" level tournament player. Anyone who knows handball knows that is rarefied territory.
    Anyone who knows you knows how easy it is to brag about something that can't be verified...

    I want do do in golf what I did in tennis, which was to play 4.5 level singles. I worked for 15 years to get that good, a zillion lessons, and near weekly clinics lasting hours that evening. I went out nearly every evening and hit balls against a wall or served basket after basket. I played both Saturday and Sunday.
    Funny...

    Wasn't it just a week or so ago you were telling us all how stupid and silly we were for wanting to get good at the whole game, and now you're telling us it's worthwhile to get good at only a part of the game?

    Now I want to do what Hogan thought was far more worthwhile than simply scoring. He wanted to hit fairways and greens. He knew and we all know that every club has dozens of golfers who play every day and finally learn to score--even after chopping horribly, missing most fairways and every green. They get good at recovering and getting up and down. That ain't golf to me. So don't tell me what you "shot" but tell me how many fairways and greens you hit.
    But you've already claimed numerous times that you hit "all the fairways and most of the greens", Larry. You've already claimed to be better than the best tour players out there. You're done!

    But I'll tell you what, I'll bet you that I can hit more than you can in front of witnesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    I agree with one thing. If you get in the bolded position there is no way your are coming OTT without dislocating something. Why on god's green earth would you want to set yourself up for a big loop de loop swing? Maybe I'm confused. Could post a video of what you are trying to accomplish because I don't get it. I'm sure I'm not he only one here that is having problems following your description. Please make it a slow motion video so we can understand the entire process. Could you please narrate it as well? I know I'm asking for much but your videos are worth a thousand of your postings.
    Why? Because when we do what is "natural," we swing OTT. Our clubhead will travel far over the plane line and swipe across the ball from outside to in, losing at least 30% of power through simple poor contact, the clubhead NOT traveling along the target line.

    So we try to do what Hogan and every good golfer does. Golfers learned 100 years ago to take it back to vertical with wrists set and the butt pointing to a spot behind our toe line. Then when we start with hips, the shaft flattens down to the plane line or below, and our wrists release through the ball. Remember the "cross-check" wherein you take your stance, set your wrists, and turn 90 degrees. That places your hands behind your back leg, the butt of the club pointing nearly straight down.

    Go to any pro tournament and watch them practice and warm up. I have seen Nationwide Tour players on the range, nearly all doing that cross-check every few minutes. And many make backswing rehearsals like Mike Wier does.

    If you really care, do your homework and learn for yourself. Another amateur shouldn't be trying to explain the golf swing to you. Ask a pro. Ask ANY good player.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Why? Because when we do what is "natural," we swing OTT. Our clubhead will travel far over the plane line and swipe across the ball from outside to in, losing at least 30% of power through simple poor contact, the clubhead NOT traveling along the target line.
    Larry: the main people swing OTT is a lack of understanding of what's happening in a swing and what it is they are trying to achieve.

    So we try to do what Hogan and every good golfer does. Golfers learned 100 years ago to take it back to vertical with wrists set and the butt pointing to a spot behind our toe line. Then when we start with hips, the shaft flattens down to the plane line or below, and our wrists release through the ball. Remember the "cross-check" wherein you take your stance, set your wrists, and turn 90 degrees. That places your hands behind your back leg, the butt of the club pointing nearly straight down.
    Hogan was trying to fight a hook. Should all the people who swing OTT be trying to fight a hook they don't have?

    Have you actually tried your cross-check, Larry? Really?

    IT
    DOESN'T
    WORK

    Go to any pro tournament and watch them practice and warm up. I have seen Nationwide Tour players on the range, nearly all doing that cross-check every few minutes. And many make backswing rehearsals like Mike Wier does.

    If you really care, do your homework and learn for yourself. Another amateur shouldn't be trying to explain the golf swing to you. Ask a pro. Ask ANY good player.
    So don't ask you, right? Or is the definition of "good player" someone claims to be "getting back" to a 17 handicap from shooting in the 100s?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Why? Because when we do what is "natural," we swing OTT. Our clubhead will travel far over the plane line and swipe across the ball from outside to in, losing at least 30% of power through simple poor contact, the clubhead NOT traveling along the target line.

    So we try to do what Hogan and every good golfer does. Golfers learned 100 years ago to take it back to vertical with wrists set and the butt pointing to a spot behind our toe line. Then when we start with hips, the shaft flattens down to the plane line or below, and our wrists release through the ball. Remember the "cross-check" wherein you take your stance, set your wrists, and turn 90 degrees. That places your hands behind your back leg, the butt of the club pointing nearly straight down.

    Go to any pro tournament and watch them practice and warm up. I have seen Nationwide Tour players on the range, nearly all doing that cross-check every few minutes. And many make backswing rehearsals like Mike Wier does.

    If you really care, do your homework and learn for yourself. Another amateur shouldn't be trying to explain the golf swing to you. Ask a pro. Ask ANY good player.

    Larry
    Um, check me if I'm wrong...but isn't that exactly what you do over and over?

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Um, check me if I'm wrong...but isn't that exactly what you do over and over?
    Davis, Davis...

    Larry's advice is all "verbatim" from "top +++ pros"...

    ...even when it's contradictory and leaves out other things that they've said.

    Look up his little snippet from Hogan about the hands, sometime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Now I want to do what Hogan thought was far more worthwhile than simply scoring. He wanted to hit fairways and greens. He knew and we all know that every club has dozens of golfers who play every day and finally learn to score--even after chopping horribly, missing most fairways and every green. They get good at recovering and getting up and down. That ain't golf to me. So don't tell me what you "shot" but tell me how many fairways and greens you hit.
    Pop quiz time, Larry:

    Who said, "In a recent playing lesson with a teaching pro, he said my swing is sufficient to play scratch golf; I don't need more work on that except to fine tune short to middle iron approaches. My full swing works. I can usually drive it 280 and straight 14 times per round. But driving does not equal scoring.", and when did he say it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker
    Pop quiz time, Larry:

    Who said, "In a recent playing lesson with a teaching pro, he said my swing is sufficient to play scratch golf; I don't need more work on that except to fine tune short to middle iron approaches. My full swing works. I can usually drive it 280 and straight 14 times per round. But driving does not equal scoring.", and when did he say it?
    I don't know who said it but he sure sounds good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I don't know who said it but he sure sounds good.
    I know!

    I mean, if all a player like that needed to do was hit fairways and greens...

    ...you think he'd have retired by now.

    ;)
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Hogan never thought for a moment that scoring came second or that anything else was more important in golf than score. I've read his books. He fought an evil hook in his early career and that's why he changed his entire swing to promote a fade and basically eliminate the possibility of a hook. Hogan wanted to hit more fairways and greens so that he could score better...especially when his putting started to go.

    No club is filled with players that chop it around, never hit fairways and greens and score well. I've belonged to several clubs and the best players all have decent swings and know how to score. The best players also play within their limits and can think around the course.

    What NONE of the best players at these clubs do is spend hours on the range or on lessons to count the number of fairways they hit.
    BULL! My club here in Rancho Santa Fe, Southern California has many retired members with VERY low single digit handicaps and I know neighboring clubs do also. Many of those guys had 20+ handicaps when they were working, complete hackers. Now that they can play every day, unless they have severe physical problems, most become deadly at recovery and simply scraping it near the greens and getting up and down. Many have never had a lesson and proud of it! They play VERY UGLY golf, but don't bet against them.

    That is not what I want to do. I don't have that much time to waste.

    The books about Hogan were written about Hogan at 40 years or younger. When Hogan was in his 60s and older he famously would NOT play golf rounds and keep stroke score. He and his group tracked only fairways and greens and "closest to the pin." They measured the skill portions of the game of golf. Hogan could still win as he became older.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    BULL! My club here in Rancho Santa Fe, Southern California has many retired members with VERY low single digit handicaps and I know neighboring clubs do also. Many of those guys had 20+ handicaps when they were working, complete hackers. Now that they can play every day, unless they have severe physical problems, most become deadly at recovery and simply scraping it near the greens and getting up and down. Many have never had a lesson and proud of it! They play VERY UGLY golf, but don't bet against them.

    That is not what I want to do. I don't have that much time to waste.

    The books about Hogan were written about Hogan at 40 years or younger. When Hogan was in his 60s and older he famously would NOT play golf rounds and keep stroke score. He and his group tracked only fairways and greens and "closest to the pin." They measured the skill portions of the game of golf. Hogan could still win as he became older.
    Oh, look! A whole bunch of claims that can't be proven!
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Um, check me if I'm wrong...but isn't that exactly what you do over and over?
    I give you guys FREE what I pay to learn. They tell me what to DO, not the physical or mental reason it works. I can only surmise that--

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    BULL! My club here in Rancho Santa Fe, Southern California has many retired members with VERY low single digit handicaps and I know neighboring clubs do also. Many of those guys had 20+ handicaps when they were working, complete hackers. Now that they can play every day, unless they have severe physical problems, most become deadly at recovery and simply scraping it near the greens and getting up and down. Many have never had a lesson and proud of it! They play VERY UGLY golf, but don't bet against them.

    That is not what I want to do. I don't have that much time to waste.

    The books about Hogan were written about Hogan at 40 years or younger. When Hogan was in his 60s and older he famously would NOT play golf rounds and keep stroke score. He and his group tracked only fairways and greens and "closest to the pin." They measured the skill portions of the game of golf. Hogan could still win as he became older.

    Larry
    I played with a bunch of the old guys at my country club in Dallas and these guys played at least 4 times a week. The only old guys that were any good did not hack the ball around the course. If you are old and have a hack swing the ball won't go anywhere. Doesn't matter if you can chip or not. The good older players have good swings and they play a lot. Their whole game is good and looks good.

    When Hogan was in his 60's he had the yips and that is the only reason he counted fairways and greens. He often commented that putting played too important a role in golf. Well, for him it sure did. He literally couldn't putt at all when he got older. Instead of admitting his weakness, he chose to bad mouth it and not count it at all and instead created a new little fairytale game for himself while he played alone. Nobody liked Ben Hogan...including Arnold Palmer (and Arnold is known for liking everyone).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    I give you guys FREE what I pay to learn.
    And then you give us FREE what you pay to learn the next week...

    ...which completely contradicts what you told us!

    They tell me what to DO, not the physical or mental reason it works. I can only surmise that--
    ...they're telling you what YOU need?

    No... ...it couldn't possibly be that what YOU'RE being taught is to correct YOUR flaws, could it, Larry? After all: you already hit "all the fairways and most of the greens" and have a swing that is good enough to play scratch golf, right?

    LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I played with a bunch of the old guys at my country club in Dallas and these guys played at least 4 times a week. The only old guys that were any good did not hack the ball around the course. If you are old and have a hack swing the ball won't go anywhere. Doesn't matter if you can chip or not. The good older players have good swings and they play a lot. Their whole game is good and looks good.

    When Hogan was in his 60's he had the yips and that is the only reason he counted fairways and greens. He often commented that putting played too important a role in golf. Well, for him it sure did. He literally couldn't putt at all when he got older. Instead of admitting his weakness, he chose to bad mouth it and not count it at all and instead created a new little fairytale game for himself while he played alone. Nobody liked Ben Hogan...including Arnold Palmer (and Arnold is known for liking everyone).
    One of my all time favourite Larry moments was when it was pointed out to him that his idol Hogan actually said that using the hands was important...

    ...and Larry immediately declared that Hogan's words needed interpretation by Larry to be understood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    In one of Larry's recent posts he revealed that he no longer cared about score. He stated that the only thing that mattered to him was hitting fairways and greens. Personally, I don't understand that approach at all because it has nothing to do with reality. I've met guys that spend tons of money on lessons and love to talk about it but their scores don't improve. It makes sense because hitting driver and irons add up to less than 50% of the game. That's what makes golf so great...alll of the different pieces that need all come together for a good score.

    Anyone who's sole focus is on the golf swing is someone that is either confused or addicted to taking lessons and/or reading about it. Nobody cares about fairways and greens. Golf is a game about getting around 18 holes with the lowest score possible. Perfecting your golf swing has very little to do with achieving that goal.
    Larry's been saying that for years. I don't think he was counting his putts which is what enabled him to break 80 so often and get down to a 6 handicap. If you add the 36-40 putts Larry probably takes per round that impressive (but implausible) sounding 76 suddenly becomes a much more realistic 112-116.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    "I don't think ...."

    Thanks Kiwi.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    "I don't think ...."

    Thanks Kiwi.
    What outstanding rhetoric, Larry!

    You can make it look like people meant something else by snipping away almost everything they wrote! Who would EVER have thought of it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Why? Because when we do what is "natural," we swing OTT. Our clubhead will travel far over the plane line and swipe across the ball from outside to in, losing at least 30% of power through simple poor contact, the clubhead NOT traveling along the target line.

    So we try to do what Hogan and every good golfer does. Golfers learned 100 years ago to take it back to vertical with wrists set and the butt pointing to a spot behind our toe line. Then when we start with hips, the shaft flattens down to the plane line or below, and our wrists release through the ball. Remember the "cross-check" wherein you take your stance, set your wrists, and turn 90 degrees. That places your hands behind your back leg, the butt of the club pointing nearly straight down.

    Go to any pro tournament and watch them practice and warm up. I have seen Nationwide Tour players on the range, nearly all doing that cross-check every few minutes. And many make backswing rehearsals like Mike Wier does.

    If you really care, do your homework and learn for yourself. Another amateur shouldn't be trying to explain the golf swing to you. Ask a pro. Ask ANY good player.

    Larry
    Just because you can't stop your ott move doesnt mean we all have the same fault.

    I've always read, heard, been taught that a club on plane ALWAYS points at the ball or a projection of the target line through the ball. Whe the wrist is fully cocked the butt of the club points at the same line. This means the club is on plane. You have fully described a furyk type loop. I've seen you flexibility. I don't think you can pull it off. You would be better off using a moe Norman move. Ask your pro. He can show you his move if he's worth his salt. I doubt he'll know because he sound like the type of pro that knows one type of swing and fits all to that swing type. With your body type and flexibility you are going done the wrong road. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Just because you can't stop your ott move doesnt mean we all have the same fault.

    I've always read, heard, been taught that a club on plane ALWAYS points at the ball or a projection of the target line through the ball. Whe the wrist is fully cocked the butt of the club points at the same line. This means the club is on plane. You have fully described a furyk type loop. I've seen you flexibility. I don't think you can pull it off. You would be better off using a moe Norman move. Ask your pro. He can show you his move if he's worth his salt. I doubt he'll know because he sound like the type of pro that knows one type of swing and fits all to that swing type. With your body type and flexibility you are going done the wrong road. Good luck.
    Poe: I commend you for trying to give Larry some useful advice, but please tell me you understand that he is not the slightest bit interested in actually improving. Larry is solely interested in bragging about how special he is, and he's settled for bragging about his dedication and cleverness in correcting a fault that "we" all have, because:

    1. He has a deep need to believe that if there is any problem he has -- any flaw -- then it must be because every single human being has the same problem. The idea that he could simply not be very good at something frightens the bejeebers out of him.

    2. Bragging about his score so very quickly became a completely obvious fraud, as anyone who has played the game much at all could tell that he was never the 6 handicap he claimed to be (even 4.3 at one point and still claiming to be a 6 on his pivotforpower.com website) with the horrible hack of a swing he showed on video.

    So kudos to you for the attempt, but...
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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker
    Poe: I commend you for trying to give Larry some useful advice, but please tell me you understand that he is not the slightest bit interested in actually improving. Larry is solely interested in bragging about how special he is, and he's settled for bragging about his dedication and cleverness in correcting a fault that "we" all have, because:

    1. He has a deep need to believe that if there is any problem he has -- any flaw -- then it must be because every single human being has the same problem. The idea that he could simply not be very good at something frightens the bejeebers out of him.

    2. Bragging about his score so very quickly became a completely obvious fraud, as anyone who has played the game much at all could tell that he was never the 6 handicap he claimed to be (even 4.3 at one point and still claiming to be a 6 on his pivotforpower.com website) with the horrible hack of a swing he showed on video.

    So kudos to you for the attempt, but...

    I think we've all extended an olive branch to Larry a time or two, holding out hope against all odds and available evidence that he MIGHT, for one brief instance - actually be interested in reading what we have to say and legitimately seeking advice that could help him improve.

    Sadly, we now know better.

    Larry just comes to GR to masturbate his ego.



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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker
    Poe: I commend you for trying to give Larry some useful advice, but please tell me you understand that he is not the slightest bit interested in actually improving. Larry is solely interested in bragging about how special he is, and he's settled for bragging about his dedication and cleverness in correcting a fault that "we" all have, because:

    1. He has a deep need to believe that if there is any problem he has -- any flaw -- then it must be because every single human being has the same problem. The idea that he could simply not be very good at something frightens the bejeebers out of him.

    2. Bragging about his score so very quickly became a completely obvious fraud, as anyone who has played the game much at all could tell that he was never the 6 handicap he claimed to be (even 4.3 at one point and still claiming to be a 6 on his pivotforpower.com website) with the horrible hack of a swing he showed on video.

    So kudos to you for the attempt, but...
    I always fight the good fight, often to a fault. I can only be true to myself. I sad it before but I'm not even sure he knows who moe Norman is or how good he was. He has a great move that many should replicate as we get older and less flexible. He's straight not very long, fairways and greens with many holes in one on par threes.

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    What I want to know is who on GR is among the magical 1% Larry bangs on about, who don't do all the stuff Larry accuses the rest of us of doing, and just turn/post/swing.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    What I want to know is who on GR is among the magical 1% Larry bangs on about, who don't do all the stuff Larry accuses the rest of us of doing, and just turn/post/swing.
    We all swing correctly. That's why lary is so bitter. He knows we are right and he's one of the only posters left in the 99%. Come to think of it, now that HS is a "playah," lary is the sole hacker on GR that can't make a sound swing. It's so sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    We all swing correctly. That's why lary is so bitter. He knows we are right and he's one of the only posters left in the 99%. Come to think of it, now that HS is a "playah," lary is the sole hacker on GR that can't make a sound swing. It's so sad.
    Larry is kind of a nut but in his defense the latest posted video of his swing is pretty good. I just don't understand the desire to perfect some move in the swing rather than focus on shooting lower scores. Once in awhile I'll count the number of fairways and greens I hit on my scorecard. If I hit a bunch of greens and fairways but score poorly I'm very upset. It's only one part of the game.

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    Interestingly, the current trend is to eliminate or reduce the flattening and get the shaft and hands to come down on the same line they traveled on the backswing.

    Oh yeah, sex, sex, sex.
    GR lives...

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Larry is kind of a nut but in his defense the latest posted video of his swing is pretty good. I just don't understand the desire to perfect some move in the swing rather than focus on shooting lower scores. Once in awhile I'll count the number of fairways and greens I hit on my scorecard. If I hit a bunch of greens and fairways but score poorly I'm very upset. It's only one part of the game.
    Honestly, it's always hard to tell based on a few cherry picked vid's on the range. But I agree with you. The true test of golf is rather your swing can hold under pressure of the game/match. I know this is true for my game, especially the short game with touch shots and putting. Nothing harder than having a slider 4 footer when it matters or a downhill chip out of thick rough to save par. On the practice green I can backhand 4 footers in most of the time. In a match situation it becomes significantly more difficult.

    The game is also much more than hitting balls off level princes lies you get on the range. Hitting a three wood from a sloped lie with the ball above your feet through a narrow gap (even knowing when this is not a good idea) or a sand shot on a down hill lie to an elevated green with one foot out of the bunker are the types of shots where the golfers mettle is tested. Not 170 yard 6 irons off a level lie or a 230 yard 3 wood from the center of the fairway. A great example is that shot tiger hit where he wrapped his 4 iron around the tree. He didn't learn that on any range. That level of commitment can only be learned playing the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    I too have the same affliction tiger has with hips that outrace my shoulders. Probably from playing soccer my entire life. I have to feel like I'm late with my hips to make a good swing or I can get stuck and result in big pushes or flips. As Tiger says when you connect with this move the club has tremendous speed because of the width in the swing but it's hard to control consistently. It's an early extension but it's not due to weak glutes as TPI suggests but it's a sequencing issue I fight.
    It must be a soccer thing, cause I have the same exact problem. Hips fire too quickly, I'm left way underplane and stuck. When timing is way off, I can't keep a ball in play and may not break 90. When timing's decent I'm in the 80's, when spot on I'm in the 70's. Yesterday it was way off, and shot a 91 for the first time in over a year. I blocked a fairway wood at least 50-60 yards offline. I was miserable all 18 holes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    What I want to know is who on GR is among the magical 1% Larry bangs on about, who don't do all the stuff Larry accuses the rest of us of doing, and just turn/post/swing.
    I don't know but it is my new goal to "BE THE 1%".

    Rather than "See the ball, be the ball", "Be the 1%" will be my new swing thought.

    I will also incorporate this into my pre-shot routine by stating this loud and clear for other golfers to hear as I line up my target prior to addressing the ball.

    I'll let you know how it goes. Should knock at least 4 strokes off my cap.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Larry is kind of a nut but in his defense the latest posted video of his swing is pretty good. I just don't understand the desire to perfect some move in the swing rather than focus on shooting lower scores. Once in awhile I'll count the number of fairways and greens I hit on my scorecard. If I hit a bunch of greens and fairways but score poorly I'm very upset. It's only one part of the game.
    I can explain it.

    You don't actually have to report fairways and greens, so Larry can never be called a liar on it.

    His desire is to have some way to show how he is better than the rest of us and that allows him to claim he is without the embarrassing little detail of actually having to prove it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player
    I don't know but it is my new goal to "BE THE 1%".

    Rather than "See the ball, be the ball", "Be the 1%" will be my new swing thought.

    I will also incorporate this into my pre-shot routine by stating this loud and clear for other golfers to hear as I line up my target prior to addressing the ball.

    I'll let you know how it goes. Should knock at least 4 strokes off my cap.

    My new goal is chips, pitches and putts. I'm going to forget about score entirely and just focus on chips, pitches and putts. From now on I'm not going to tee off or hit irons to the green. I will get in the cart and drive straight to an area within forty yards of the green and I will begin to play. This is what Dave Pelz did in his heyday and that's good enough for me. Anybody can go around hacking the ball around and score well. It takes a man of strength to perfect his chips, pitches and putts. That's CPP for short. Not to be confused with CPS, forum member.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    My new goal is chips, pitches and putts. I'm going to forget about score entirely and just focus on chips, pitches and putts. From now on I'm not going to tee off or hit irons to the green. I will get in the cart and drive straight to an area within forty yards of the green and I will begin to play. This is what Dave Pelz did in his heyday and that's good enough for me. Anybody can go around hacking the ball around and score well. It takes a man of strength to perfect his chips, pitches and putts. That's CPP for short. Not to be confused with CPS, forum member.
    My new goals is divots. I'm going to forget about score and focus solely on taking the most beautiful divots. In fact, I'm not even going to use a golf ball.

    I'll stand on the tee and take a divot with the driver. Then drive to the fairway and take a divot with my approach.

    Divot with the greenside chip, divot with the putter.

    No one is as dedicated as I am to perfect divots! 99.999% can't do it, but I will!
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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker
    My new goals is divots. I'm going to forget about score and focus solely on taking the most beautiful divots. In fact, I'm not even going to use a golf ball.

    I'll stand on the tee and take a divot with the driver. Then drive to the fairway and take a divot with my approach.

    Divot with the greenside chip, divot with the putter.

    No one is as dedicated as I am to perfect divots! 99.999% can't do it, but I will!
    Don't forget to do the occassional divot with a hybrid and divot with the chipper. Chipper divots are the toughest because of the wide sole...just ask Sooner.

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    Clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by jt1135
    Well, I'd like to bang a bunch of actresses but I guess I'll just stumble along getting the local talent ...
    .

    Media stars are way overrated. I see 5 women every day better looking than anyone currently on the screen. For example, there's an Iranian lobbyist chick in Sacramento - Wow! Anyway, Larry, so the "flatten the shaft" thing is accomplished just by pushing the club away on a slightly outside path?

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    I read the title of this thread again and I can't imagine anyone who woud want to flatten their shaft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I read the title of this thread again and I can't imagine anyone who woud want to flatten their shaft.
    Yes, I flatten my golf shaft by using a hammer.... the other shaft I put in a soft place and make it grow

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I read the title of this thread again and I can't imagine anyone who woud want to flatten their shaft.

    Because flat and dead can feel wonderful?



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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Larry is kind of a nut but in his defense the latest posted video of his swing is pretty good. I just don't understand the desire to perfect some move in the swing rather than focus on shooting lower scores. Once in awhile I'll count the number of fairways and greens I hit on my scorecard. If I hit a bunch of greens and fairways but score poorly I'm very upset. It's only one part of the game.
    Easy. the "game" of golf takes too long. 90% of FOUR HOURS is wasted just standing around watching other people swing. It bores me to tears unless I am out there with people I like and talking about something interesting (and not the mindlessly stupid game of golf). So I have focused on a part of the game that is difficult. I will conquer the golf swing. I agree with Hogan later in his life that the measure of the golf swing is fairways hit, greens in regulation, and hitting greens close to the pin-- not necessarily total score because putting is a different game more like croquet.

    I play a round of golf weekly or so, but mostly I spend less than an hour a day working on my swing, taking lessons, working on my swing, and then forget about it.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by 24putts
    .

    Media stars are way overrated. I see 5 women every day better looking than anyone currently on the screen. For example, there's an Iranian lobbyist chick in Sacramento - Wow! Anyway, Larry, so the "flatten the shaft" thing is accomplished just by pushing the club away on a slightly outside path?
    Watch any good player closely. Watch Sergio, Tiger, Furyk, Fowler, etc. and see that they take it up in line with their toes, then roll their arms and turn their shoulders a little more AS they shift their hips laterally toward the target and set their weight on their front leg. WITHOUT conscious wrist action, the butt of the club points further out toward the target line, "flattening" the shaft appearance as viewed from the back. They turn their hips toward the target while their shoulders are turned back, creating a "stretch" of the big lateral muscles in our back-- which power the downswing shoulder pivot-turn that throws the arms as a unit, leaves the club handle behind and then flings the clubhead like popping a whip. A sequence that multiplies and creates clubhead speed. Read "5 Lessons" by Hogan for a detailed explanation.

    "flattening the shaft" is part of what happens in a correct golf swing. It happens because the component parts of the swing occur in the correct sequence. The golfer does NOT consciously make it happen. It is a result, not an action.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Watch any good player closely. Watch Sergio, Tiger, Furyk, Fowler, etc. and see that they take it up in line with their toes, then roll their arms and turn their shoulders a little more AS they shift their hips laterally toward the target and set their weight on their front leg. WITHOUT conscious wrist action, the butt of the club points further out toward the target line, "flattening" the shaft appearance as viewed from the back. They turn their hips toward the target while their shoulders are turned back, creating a "stretch" of the big lateral muscles in our back-- which power the downswing shoulder pivot-turn that throws the arms as a unit, leaves the club handle behind and then flings the clubhead like popping a whip. A sequence that multiplies and creates clubhead speed. Read "5 Lessons" by Hogan for a detailed explanation.

    "flattening the shaft" is part of what happens in a correct golf swing. It happens because the component parts of the swing occur in the correct sequence. The golfer does NOT consciously make it happen. It is a result, not an action.

    Larry
    LOL - furyk has the biggest loop on tour and possibly ever on tour. It is not there because of proper sequencing. Nice change on where the butt of the shaft points. You previously posted the saft was near vertical with the shaft pointed at your toe Lind as I recall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Watch any good player closely. Watch Sergio, Tiger, Furyk, Fowler, etc. and see that they take it up in line with their toes,
    No, Larry. There are a couple of oddball swings on the PGA Tour that look a little like that, but it is not "any good player".

    then roll their arms and turn their shoulders a little more AS they shift their hips laterally toward the target and set their weight on their front leg. WITHOUT conscious wrist action, the butt of the club points further out toward the target line, "flattening" the shaft appearance as viewed from the back. They turn their hips toward the target while their shoulders are turned back, creating a "stretch" of the big lateral muscles in our back-- which power the downswing shoulder pivot-turn that throws the arms as a unit, leaves the club handle behind and then flings the clubhead like popping a whip. A sequence that multiplies and creates clubhead speed. Read "5 Lessons" by Hogan for a detailed explanation.
    But if any part of "5 lessons" disagrees with your gospel, then it's allegorical and no longer to be read verbatim, right?

    "flattening the shaft" is part of what happens in a correct golf swing. It happens because the component parts of the swing occur in the correct sequence. The golfer does NOT consciously make it happen. It is a result, not an action.
    Funny that you describe it as an action above then...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Easy. the "game" of golf takes too long. 90% of FOUR HOURS is wasted just standing around watching other people swing. It bores me to tears unless I am out there with people I like and talking about something interesting (and not the mindlessly stupid game of golf).
    So a little while ago, you were claiming you go out there with friends, but you don't keep score; just count fairways and greens, and now you're claiming that it's too boring, so you don't do it?

    LOL

    So I have focused on a part of the game that is difficult. I will conquer the golf swing. I agree with Hogan later in his life that the measure of the golf swing is fairways hit, greens in regulation, and hitting greens close to the pin-- not necessarily total score because putting is a different game more like croquet.

    I play a round of golf weekly or so, but mostly I spend less than an hour a day working on my swing, taking lessons, working on my swing, and then forget about it.
    So you choose to make golf more boring by picking up after you hit your approach; basically guaranteeing that you'll spend a lot of time waiting on the group ahead of you?

    Larry: when you're in a hole, stop digging.
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  77. #77
    Sweet Lord, do you people see what's going on here?! It's the perfect storm. Our boy Larry is going for the simultaneous century threads. This has potential to make "Let's resurrect swing the clubhead" look like "The importance of the divot." That magnificent bastard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home-slicer
    Sweet Lord, do you people see what's going on here?! It's the perfect storm. Our boy Larry is going for the simultaneous century threads. This has potential to make "Let's resurrect swing the clubhead" look like "The importance of the divot." That magnificent bastard.
    Rommel, I read your book!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorenzoinoc
    Rommel, I read your book!
    Dammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmit!

    I was just about to post that!

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    With Lary being such a magnificent bastard and obviously having such a devious and calculating mind, funny he didn't work his way up in the navy to the rank of admiral. Or at least rear admiral seeing as there are so many semen in the navy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt1135
    With Lary being such a magnificent bastard and obviously having such a devious and calculating mind, funny he didn't work his way up in the navy to the rank of admiral. Or at least rear admiral seeing as there are so many semen in the navy.
    I have to agree. Larry is good at inticing people to enter quick responses to his posts and never deviates from his strategy. His posts seem so authentic in an arrogant and patronizing way.

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    I guess the real question here is, why not flatten the shaft? Shaft flattening has been around since the Middle Ages, and even with all the advances in art and science, the great thinkers of every generation haven't been able to come up with a good reason to not flatten the shaft. Read a history book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs
    I guess the real question here is, why not flatten the shaft? Shaft flattening has been around since the Middle Ages, and even with all the advances in art and science, the great thinkers of every generation haven't been able to come up with a good reason to not flatten the shaft. Read a history book.
    Maybe if Wilson had come up with Flat Shaft irons instead of Fat Shaft irons they'd still be #1. A flat shaft clearly would lead to less shot dispersion...the key to the fairway and green game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    I have to agree. Larry is good at inticing people to enter quick responses to his posts and never deviates from his strategy. His posts seem so authentic in an arrogant and patronizing way.
    I post in hopes to see a great video or hear stories of feces throwing at parades. Those moments are priceless and classic.

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    Chilean miners have been trapped for months deep underground in a flattened shaft.

    In an attempted remake of the original movie, receipts were paltry as competing blockbusters flattened Shaft.

    Sees Candies battled it out with them for years, but eventually they flattened Schraft.
    GR lives...

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    LOL - furyk has the biggest loop on tour and possibly ever on tour. It is not there because of proper sequencing. Nice change on where the butt of the shaft points. You previously posted the saft was near vertical with the shaft pointed at your toe Lind as I recall.
    Really, spend a couple of bucks and take a lesson. Get a teaching pro to pull up Furyk's swing and show you what he does. Then ask him to pull up Hogan or any other good player. You will see solid fundamentals in both swings--and the reason Furyk wins. It is just silly for you guys to wander in the wilderness here-- asking questions that every book and every teaching pro could answer. Why ask another amateur?

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Really, spend a couple of bucks and take a lesson. Get a teaching pro to pull up Furyk's swing and show you what he does. Then ask him to pull up Hogan or any other good player. You will see solid fundamentals in both swings--and the reason Furyk wins. It is just silly for you guys to wander in the wilderness here-- asking questions that every book and every teaching pro could answer. Why ask another amateur?

    Larry
    Seriously? Get some glasses old man. Hogans swing is nice and compact and for a small man he hit the shiat out of the ball. While Furyk's swing looks like he's swinging in a phone booth and can barely hit the ball out of his own shadow for a tall man. Get a clue old man. Or better yet post a video of you best furyk loop in slow motion please.
    Last edited by poe4soul; 10-12-2010 at 08:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    Really, spend a couple of bucks and take a lesson. Get a teaching pro to pull up Furyk's swing and show you what he does. Then ask him to pull up Hogan or any other good player. You will see solid fundamentals in both swings--and the reason Furyk wins.
    What you won's see is Hogan's swing looking even remotely like Furyk's.

    It is just silly for you guys to wander in the wilderness here-- asking questions that every book and every teaching pro could answer. Why ask another amateur?
    Why listen to one... ...and a 17 handicap at that (if 17 is honest)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis
    Maybe if Wilson had come up with Flat Shaft irons instead of Fat Shaft irons they'd still be #1. A flat shaft clearly would lead to less shot dispersion...the key to the fairway and green game.
    Funnily enough, there was a driver a few years ago that had a 'revolutionally' flat shaft. Apparently the shaft sliced through the air like a knife, and created increased clubhead speed which added the obligatory 50 extra yards to your drives. I can't remember what it was called, but it was a Jack Hammer like marketing campaign.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Funnily enough, there was a driver a few years ago that had a 'revolutionally' flat shaft. Apparently the shaft sliced through the air like a knife, and created increased clubhead speed which added the obligatory 50 extra yards to your drives. I can't remember what it was called, but it was a Jack Hammer like marketing campaign.
    Actually, it was a Jack Hamm driver after all. The 'Air Extreme' name threw me. And it actually cuts through the air like a sword, not a knife. My bad. Here's the link. Check out the torque!

    http://www.zef.com/Gallery/Sports/Golf/airxtreme.htm
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker
    Actually, it was a Jack Hamm driver after all. The 'Air Extreme' name threw me. And it actually cuts through the air like a sword, not a knife. My bad. Here's the link. Check out the torque!

    http://www.zef.com/Gallery/Sports/Golf/airxtreme.htm
    You could fill that driver with Watina!

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    I simply HAD to bump this thread. It's simply too great to die a natural death........
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorkman53
    I simply HAD to bump this thread. It's simply too great to die a natural death........
    Right you are. It's ust un GR like for a Larry thread not to nudge the 100.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  94. #94
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    Haven't seen too many of Laurie's thread not hit a hundred. Would you classify Larry as an idiot savant or just an idiot? Maybe somebody shoul set up a poll.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt1135
    Haven't seen too many of Laurie's thread not hit a hundred. Would you classify Larry as an idiot savant or just an idiot? Maybe somebody shoul set up a poll.
    I don't actually clarify Larry as either. I think he is actually intelligent, in a rat cunning kind of way. I think he is probably psychologically damaged, he seems to be a bit deluded at times, but again this may be part of his plan. I honestly believe that if Larry Whittaker is indeed a real person, he is a con artist. He is happy to come here and make a complete idiot of himself, as long as it generates publicity for his on line scams. He's willing ot take the hits to make money. Larry reminds me of a cockroach, resourceful and very hard to kill. But unfortunately for Larry his own personal DDT is here on GR in the form of Alan G Baker.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorkman53
    I simply HAD to bump this thread. It's simply too great to die a natural death........
    I'm pretty sure that not only has Larry gone off to lick his wounds... ...but he's also had to get a real job (instead of running his pretend companies).

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIUC9S0z0bY

    Watch my pro gently hold my club back to allow my lower body to start first-- When I swing I bring the club "down and under" and the shaft is aligned with my left forearm-- ideal!

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIUC9S0z0bY

    Watch my pro gently hold my club back to allow my lower body to start first-- When I swing I bring the club "down and under" and the shaft is aligned with my left forearm-- ideal!
    Everything you do is always "ideal!", Larry...

    ...and then suddenly, it's not and your pro was in some way clueless and leading you down the wrong path.

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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIUC9S0z0bY

    Watch my pro gently hold my club back to allow my lower body to start first-- When I swing I bring the club "down and under" and the shaft is aligned with my left forearm-- ideal!

    Larry
    Much better than your old pro telling you to make a big arse loop in your swing. That was just WRONG of him to take advantage of you larie. How much money did you waste with him anyway? TOO much IMHO. I would demand a refund.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul
    Much better than your old pro telling you to make a big arse loop in your swing. That was just WRONG of him to take advantage of you larie. How much money did you waste with him anyway? TOO much IMHO. I would demand a refund.
    Moron. There obviously is a minimum level of intelligence for golf. Duh. This is the SAME PRO helping me after I took it up steep to drop it under instead of starting with shoulders AGAIN.

    Take a lesson. LISTEN to what the pro teaches.

    Larry

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