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  1. #1
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    Problems with golf instruction

    I've been doing quite a bit of youtube surfing for golf instruction lately and I've made an alarming observation. Different pros are contradicting each other, all claiming that the other guy is wrong and that most modern teaching is fundamentally wrong, pointing out some of the flaws with the modern swing. One of the biggest points of isse is the modern concept of the one plane swing and swinging from the top. There are quite a few who dispute the one plane swing model, and use footage of the swings of the great ball strikers to prove their point. Another big thing is the role of the right arm. Half say that the right arm must straigten at the bottom of the swing, but the other half say that straightening the right arm before impact is suicide. There is also huge conjecture on releasing the club. They also argue about whether you move your weight to the right side on the backswing or not, whether your weight should be on the balls or heels of your feet, and leg flex. A multitude of contradictions.

    What this tells me is what I've always suspected. You need to be very careful before diving in to instruction. There are some so called teachers out there who don't really know the swing and will ruin your game if you let them. IMHO,from what I've read and understand about the swing, Leadbetter is one of those clowns who thinks he has reinvented the golf swing but is actually clueless.

    At the moment I'm actually leaning towards the guys who are teaching the older style body swings, using the big muscles and centrifugal force and keeping the arms tucked in and very quiet and passive. Although they conceed the modern one plane handsy swing can still produce plenty of chs, they prescribe the body swing is the only way to maintain control over the ball and the flight, and have consistency. The modern teachings work for pros because they have great hand eye coordination and have the time to practice for hours every day getting the timing down, but these types of swings for amatuers who play once a week will lead to inconsistency and lack of control.

    I've been mucking around with the older style Hogan/Trevino/Moe Norman body swing (Furyk is a current player who swings like that) and I have noticed two things when you get it right. The first thing is you get effortless power and great compression of the ball. The second, and more important, thing is that this swing produces a consistent power fade. It's early days and I still don't get it right every time as old habits die hard, but when I make the right move I know it's not going left, especially off the driver. I don't think I've lost too much if any distance, but I'm starting to hit more fairways as I know which way my ball will move in the air. I've also noticed better distance control with the irons but this may just be a result of more consistent contact.

    I'll let you all know when it takes 4 strokes off my cap.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

  2. #2
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    NAH, I have pretty much come to the same conclusion. I have a great dvd of steve bann's and whilst i do the drills etc etc everything seems ok for awhile then at some point i lose control of the direction,mainly hooks and pulls. Now, i know that it is a result of not turning the hips through or letting the shoulders turn around with the hips, but when i am lucky to play once a week its too hard (for me) to get consistently right in the middle of a comp round. So i have been searching the net as well and came across Steve Elkingtons site, secret in the dirt. It really got my attention when i was watching one of the video clips and Elk says something like "give me strong legs and butt any day to hit the ball". The site is big on the sequence of the swing, and Elks swing is a combo of old school and tgm, and makes it hard to hit the ball left and the compression of the ball is very noticeable also. Couple of areas in the site worth looking at, the video vault and the store. I have bought some of the downloads (short game one is fantastic) and have committed to staying with this for at least a year. Only been at it about a month and so far its been ok, its just not automatic yet. When it clicks i've been able to string a few birdies together so its getting there. If this fails i'm going to start drinking before the round and play bubbagolf!
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  3. #3
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    Yes, it is an instructional mine field out there. I have just begun tinkering with swing plane over the last few years and have come to the conclusion that since everyone is physically constructed a bit differently, there is no one plane that is mandatory for all. So I have been watching certain accomplished players' swings on YouTube for various tidbits. My favorite is Steve Stricker's. There is not much to go out of whack with that swing. I also spent some time watching various and sundry guys' down-the-line iron swings on par 3's and observed that the only constant is where they are at impact. So that's what I've been working on.

    Regarding optimum plane for me, there is a great article in last month's Golf Magazine on how to find one's best swing plane and it is so simple it is laughable. I've been working on it for several weeks with good results from driver to sand wedge. All you do is stand up straight with your arms hanging down and bend your right arm up from the elbow holding it tight against the bicep and stick your right thumb out in the hitch-hiking gesture. If your thumb points over your right shoulder, your optimum plane is a high one. If the thumb points to the top of your shoulder, a medium plane is the best for you. If your thumb points lower than the top of your shoulder like mine does, then your optimum swing plane is the same as the plane of your shaft at address. I've gotten more useful stuff from the various golf magazines over the years than from the hands-on pro lessons I've taken. As an old blues guitarist once told me, learn with your eyes and ears and keep your mouth shut.
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    The great tuition conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker View Post
    I've been doing quite a bit of youtube surfing for golf instruction lately and I've made an alarming observation. Different pros are contradicting each other, all claiming that the other guy is wrong and that most modern teaching is fundamentally wrong, pointing out some of the flaws with the modern swing. One of the biggest points of isse is the modern concept of the one plane swing and swinging from the top. There are quite a few who dispute the one plane swing model, and use footage of the swings of the great ball strikers to prove their point. Another big thing is the role of the right arm. Half say that the right arm must straigten at the bottom of the swing, but the other half say that straightening the right arm before impact is suicide. There is also huge conjecture on releasing the club. They also argue about whether you move your weight to the right side on the backswing or not, whether your weight should be on the balls or heels of your feet, and leg flex. A multitude of contradictions.

    What this tells me is what I've always suspected. You need to be very careful before diving in to instruction. There are some so called teachers out there who don't really know the swing and will ruin your game if you let them. IMHO,from what I've read and understand about the swing, Leadbetter is one of those clowns who thinks he has reinvented the golf swing but is actually clueless.

    At the moment I'm actually leaning towards the guys who are teaching the older style body swings, using the big muscles and centrifugal force and keeping the arms tucked in and very quiet and passive. Although they conceed the modern one plane handsy swing can still produce plenty of chs, they prescribe the body swing is the only way to maintain control over the ball and the flight, and have consistency. The modern teachings work for pros because they have great hand eye coordination and have the time to practice for hours every day getting the timing down, but these types of swings for amatuers who play once a week will lead to inconsistency and lack of control.

    I've been mucking around with the older style Hogan/Trevino/Moe Norman body swing (Furyk is a current player who swings like that) and I have noticed two things when you get it right. The first thing is you get effortless power and great compression of the ball. The second, and more important, thing is that this swing produces a consistent power fade. It's early days and I still don't get it right every time as old habits die hard, but when I make the right move I know it's not going left, especially off the driver. I don't think I've lost too much if any distance, but I'm starting to hit more fairways as I know which way my ball will move in the air. I've also noticed better distance control with the irons but this may just be a result of more consistent contact.

    I'll let you all know when it takes 4 strokes off my cap.
    I agree with much of what you have written. However as a man of slight build (i'm only 5 ft 8 and 11 stone) I find I don't have a strong enough core to swing with passive arms. If I do I hit a lot of slices. To keep it straight I need to feel I am swinging the arms down in harmony with a smooth turn of the hips. I am envious of those with the necessary core strength to keep their arms passive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Regarding optimum plane for me, there is a great article in last month's Golf Magazine on how to find one's best swing plane and it is so simple it is laughable. I've been working on it for several weeks with good results from driver to sand wedge. All you do is stand up straight with your arms hanging down and bend your right arm up from the elbow holding it tight against the bicep and stick your right thumb out in the hitch-hiking gesture. If your thumb points over your right shoulder, your optimum plane is a high one. If the thumb points to the top of your shoulder, a medium plane is the best for you. If your thumb points lower than the top of your shoulder like mine does, then your optimum swing plane is the same as the plane of your shaft at address. I've gotten more useful stuff from the various golf magazines over the years than from the hands-on pro lessons I've taken. As an old blues guitarist once told me, learn with your eyes and ears and keep your mouth shut.
    That was a great piece wasnt it. Im a high plane swinger based on that - and I believe its true. Expanded on Hogans swing plane theories....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    All you do is stand up straight with your arms hanging down and bend your right arm up from the elbow holding it tight against the bicep and stick your right thumb out in the hitch-hiking gesture. If your thumb points over your right shoulder, your optimum plane is a high one. If the thumb points to the top of your shoulder, a medium plane is the best for you. If your thumb points lower than the top of your shoulder like mine does, then your optimum swing plane is the same as the plane of your shaft at address.

    In the latter case, does this mean one has to address the ball with one's hands held higher and standing further from the ball? Otherwise, how does one get to the address plane with one's swing? Do you stay well inside and tend to hook the ball as I do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    In the latter case, does this mean one has to address the ball with one's hands held higher and standing further from the ball? Otherwise, how does one get to the address plane with one's swing? Do you stay well inside and tend to hook the ball as I do?
    I have been working on a new address position in which my arms, wrists and hands are almost straight in line with the club shaft. Before, he hit it with my hands low and a pronounced angle between hands and shaft. By raising my hands and eliminating that angle, I am much more consistent and cannot snap hook a ball when swinging on that inside plane. A example of what I'm trying to do is the Swedish PGA tour player Carl Peterson. A chunky blond haired guy who does OK. He should be playing in the Hilton Head event this weekend.
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  8. #8
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    I wish we had a few teaching pros here. In the meantime, I will relay what I am told by several who teach all day every day at a public driving range. The 4 pros there are themselves either current or former tournament players, +++handicaps so they don't just "talk a good game." They can play. And they do their homework vis-a-vis current PGA teaching methods. So they all teach the same swing. They all want students to lay it off on top and bring it to the ball "down and under." Some use Jack Nicklaus' "Inside Approach" as a training aid. The teach the flatter downswing primarily to avoid the ubiquitous amateur fault of too steep, bringing it down the ball from the outside, shoulders before hips.

    I believe the standard of standards is "Swing like a Pro" or "Model Golf. Fred Griffin and several others basically amalgamated the swings of the top 100 pros, and created a "model" with a perfect swing. And then they book attempts to teach students to swing like that. I love that concept because it is simply beyond argument. Nobody can disagree with the perfect swing based on the success of the top players in the world.

    The pros where I take lessons teach that swing--not because they know "Swing like a Pro," SLAP, but because it is solid fundamentals. But I have that book and have studied it for hours and done all the drills. They are the same drills my teacher suggested.

    SLAP agrees with TPI, which also set out to teach the best fundamental swing-- and help amateurs get themselves in physical condition to make it repeatedly. There was no disagreement. TPI simply added scientific biomechanics, explaining WHY we should shift our weight and lead our shoulders with hips-- exactly what Hogan learned 40 years ago through hours of experimentation on the range.

    TPI and SLAP (and every teaching pro I have talked to), says the primary problem encountered by developing amateurs is the ability to make the transition weight shift. Instead of taking it up, shifting our weight to our front leg while still turned back, then swinging, most amateurs take it up and swing, little or no shift. So they don't tilt their upper torso away from the target and of course their shoulders lead their hips. They would slice every ball except that those who play a lot learn to flip the clubhead closed. If they play for years, that fault becomes so ingrained that they basically cannot learn a correct golf swing. Teaching pros try, but students don't want to hear that the solution is to stop playing and just do drills for months.

    Read Swing Like a Pro. It is probably available on Kindle, ha

    Larry

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    It seems to me, like in all of education today, way too much stock is placed on actual lesson time. Like a musical instrument, the real work happens in personal practice… a teacher can set up a few guide posts but no more. Studying with the best violinist is the world will not make you a good violinist. 10 hours of practice per day, maybe not even precisely following any teaching ideology, is what works.

    This is societal now. We blame the teachers (hands tied by “No Child Left Behind” and other bureaucratic controls) for the absolute lack of practice and work from the student. I’ve seen it way too often in the music world. A parent expects their kid to master an instrument just because they pay for a 30 minute lesson. They never comprehend the lesson is actually the least important part of the learning process.

    Even with shiity instruction, any student can succeed with the right amount of effort. In the case of Bubba, no instruction was needed at all (just a pile of video tapes and range balls). If Tiger had a better head on his shoulders he could have taken what he deemed important from his dad, Butch, Haney, etc… but no, he went lock stock and barrel into different swing mechanics treating his coaches as absolute.

    I really wonder why older pros use coaching… I don’t get it. Going back to the music world, you don’t see principal chairs of symphony orchestras taking lessons on orchestral repertoire and technique when they have been on the symphony gig for 20 years. I get it for the young 20-somethings… but I don’t understand why a talented successful 40 year old needs a coach in anything.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker View Post
    I've been doing quite a bit of youtube surfing for golf instruction lately and I've made an alarming observation. Different pros are contradicting each other, all claiming that the other guy is wrong and that most modern teaching is fundamentally wrong, pointing out some of the flaws with the modern swing. One of the biggest points of isse is the modern concept of the one plane swing and swinging from the top. There are quite a few who dispute the one plane swing model, and use footage of the swings of the great ball strikers to prove their point. Another big thing is the role of the right arm. Half say that the right arm must straigten at the bottom of the swing, but the other half say that straightening the right arm before impact is suicide. There is also huge conjecture on releasing the club. They also argue about whether you move your weight to the right side on the backswing or not, whether your weight should be on the balls or heels of your feet, and leg flex. A multitude of contradictions.

    What this tells me is what I've always suspected. You need to be very careful before diving in to instruction. There are some so called teachers out there who don't really know the swing and will ruin your game if you let them. IMHO,from what I've read and understand about the swing, Leadbetter is one of those clowns who thinks he has reinvented the golf swing but is actually clueless.

    At the moment I'm actually leaning towards the guys who are teaching the older style body swings, using the big muscles and centrifugal force and keeping the arms tucked in and very quiet and passive. Although they conceed the modern one plane handsy swing can still produce plenty of chs, they prescribe the body swing is the only way to maintain control over the ball and the flight, and have consistency. The modern teachings work for pros because they have great hand eye coordination and have the time to practice for hours every day getting the timing down, but these types of swings for amatuers who play once a week will lead to inconsistency and lack of control.

    I've been mucking around with the older style Hogan/Trevino/Moe Norman body swing (Furyk is a current player who swings like that) and I have noticed two things when you get it right. The first thing is you get effortless power and great compression of the ball. The second, and more important, thing is that this swing produces a consistent power fade. It's early days and I still don't get it right every time as old habits die hard, but when I make the right move I know it's not going left, especially off the driver. I don't think I've lost too much if any distance, but I'm starting to hit more fairways as I know which way my ball will move in the air. I've also noticed better distance control with the irons but this may just be a result of more consistent contact.

    I'll let you all know when it takes 4 strokes off my cap.
    Many golf instructors learn a method and teach it to all of their students. My instructor has enough knowledge to teach a swing that is appropriate for your swing. These type of instructors are hard to find.

    While there are common traits to the golf swing that all variations follow, ie stand side on, grip, etc. There are variations. If your Pro isn't talented enough to identify these differences and find your swing, not his swing, then you have a crappy teacher.

    Here's an article from TPI that is appropriate for this discussion. Here a excerpt.

    The Perfect Golf Swing: Dispelling the Myth
    ...Implications for golf instructors and their students
    From our preceding analysis, it should be clear that, like all other motor skills, the golf swing is not stereotyped or invariant, but rather it is an emergent property of the confluence of constraints impinging on the golfer. We suggest that, rather than evaluating the proficiency of a golfer’s swing in terms of its proximity to a perceived ‘perfect’ golf swing or ‘common optimal movement pattern’, it should be assessed in relation to the specific constraints impinging on performance. Although the exact nature of these interacting constraints cannot be known in advance—they can only be predicted—the main overarching constraints that shape and guide performance should be more or less identifiable (e.g., height, mass, strength and flexibility).

    Golf instructors need to understand that each golfer is unique with their own individual differences and mannerisms that may or may not be detrimental to performance. Constraints vary among individuals and practitioners need to adopt an approach that allows each performer to satisfy the range of constraints acting on them in their own, unique way. Any variability should, therefore, be considered as a potential resource and not necessarily a hindrance to performance. Only a careful analysis of individual differences in relation to the agreed performance aims and goals of the instructor and golfer will tell whether a specific movement solution (e.g., a golf swing) should be developed or coached out over time.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPS View Post
    It seems to me, like in all of education today, way too much stock is placed on actual lesson time. Like a musical instrument, the real work happens in personal practice… a teacher can set up a few guide posts but no more. Studying with the best violinist is the world will not make you a good violinist. 10 hours of practice per day, maybe not even precisely following any teaching ideology, is what works.

    This is societal now. We blame the teachers (hands tied by “No Child Left Behind” and other bureaucratic controls) for the absolute lack of practice and work from the student. I’ve seen it way too often in the music world. A parent expects their kid to master an instrument just because they pay for a 30 minute lesson. They never comprehend the lesson is actually the least important part of the learning process.

    Even with shiity instruction, any student can succeed with the right amount of effort. In the case of Bubba, no instruction was needed at all (just a pile of video tapes and range balls). If Tiger had a better head on his shoulders he could have taken what he deemed important from his dad, Butch, Haney, etc… but no, he went lock stock and barrel into different swing mechanics treating his coaches as absolute.

    I really wonder why older pros use coaching… I don’t get it. Going back to the music world, you don’t see principal chairs of symphony orchestras taking lessons on orchestral repertoire and technique when they have been on the symphony gig for 20 years. I get it for the young 20-somethings… but I don’t understand why a talented successful 40 year old needs a coach in anything.
    Great post here. Absolute common sense.
    I have also come across pros who teach only one method; their own; which is obviously not good for everyone.
    I am a believer in digging a swing out of the dirt, but also believe that you need to have enough tuition to understand the fundamentals of the golf swing, and in particular to understand your own swing and your own common, or fall back errors.
    I rarely,if ever have a lesson now, as I have been at it long enough to understand what is going on for me and work through problems at the range.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldplayer View Post
    Great post here. Absolute common sense.
    I have also come across pros who teach only one method; their own; which is obviously not good for everyone.
    I am a believer in digging a swing out of the dirt, but also believe that you need to have enough tuition to understand the fundamentals of the golf swing, and in particular to understand your own swing and your own common, or fall back errors.
    I rarely,if ever have a lesson now, as I have been at it long enough to understand what is going on for me and work through problems at the range.
    I also have been playing long enough to know my swing well enough to not need lessons. I had lessons earlh to learn correct fundamentals, but once learned I would rather figure the rest out on my own from picking up bits and pieces from internet insruction and studying good players.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I have been working on a new address position in which my arms, wrists and hands are almost straight in line with the club shaft.
    There's nothing new in this world, I guess. That's the old Moe Norman "Natural Golf" swing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldplayer View Post
    Great post here. Absolute common sense.
    I have also come across pros who teach only one method; their own; which is obviously not good for everyone.
    I am a believer in digging a swing out of the dirt, but also believe that you need to have enough tuition to understand the fundamentals of the golf swing, and in particular to understand your own swing and your own common, or fall back errors.
    I rarely,if ever have a lesson now, as I have been at it long enough to understand what is going on for me and work through problems at the range.
    I'll take a few lessons when I identify a fault. Sure I can work through it with video but having a second set of eyes is always helpful. A good teacher should have some analogies, swing thoughts, drills, etc to help get over the hump of ingraining a new move. Basically taking the trial and error out of the equation.

    The difficult part about learning on your own is understanding which is the fault and which is the compensation for the fault. Most chase the compensations and don't overcome the underlying fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CPS View Post
    It seems to me, like in all of education today, way too much stock is placed on actual lesson time. Like a musical instrument, the real work happens in personal practice… a teacher can set up a few guide posts but no more. Studying with the best violinist is the world will not make you a good violinist. 10 hours of practice per day, maybe not even precisely following any teaching ideology, is what works.

    This is societal now. We blame the teachers (hands tied by “No Child Left Behind” and other bureaucratic controls) for the absolute lack of practice and work from the student. I’ve seen it way too often in the music world. A parent expects their kid to master an instrument just because they pay for a 30 minute lesson. They never comprehend the lesson is actually the least important part of the learning process.

    Even with shiity instruction, any student can succeed with the right amount of effort. In the case of Bubba, no instruction was needed at all (just a pile of video tapes and range balls). If Tiger had a better head on his shoulders he could have taken what he deemed important from his dad, Butch, Haney, etc… but no, he went lock stock and barrel into different swing mechanics treating his coaches as absolute.

    I really wonder why older pros use coaching… I don’t get it. Going back to the music world, you don’t see principal chairs of symphony orchestras taking lessons on orchestral repertoire and technique when they have been on the symphony gig for 20 years. I get it for the young 20-somethings… but I don’t understand why a talented successful 40 year old needs a coach in anything.
    While I agree with most of what you've posted, I don't agree with the symphony analogy. Blues or jazz would be a better analogy. Those musicians are always learning, sharing, pushing their skills, styles, etc. Same with Touring Pro's at a similar level. They are often sharing ideas, styles, approaches etc.

    My lesson's are no longer "OK Teach, what do you want me to do today?" They always start with a discussion of my swing, what I'm trying to improve etc. Their is give and take in the lesson. Even some disagreement.

    I imagine that a lesson with a PGA Touring Pro and his teacher is about that student and in a context of their swing and not a model swing. Tiger is an exception but he obviously sought out Foley and wanted to learn his style. But, again not any different than a senior musician learning a new style of music.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPS View Post
    It seems to me, like in all of education today, way too much stock is placed on actual lesson time. Like a musical instrument, the real work happens in personal practice… a teacher can set up a few guide posts but no more. Studying with the best violinist is the world will not make you a good violinist. 10 hours of practice per day, maybe not even precisely following any teaching ideology, is what works.

    This is societal now. We blame the teachers (hands tied by “No Child Left Behind” and other bureaucratic controls) for the absolute lack of practice and work from the student. I’ve seen it way too often in the music world. A parent expects their kid to master an instrument just because they pay for a 30 minute lesson. They never comprehend the lesson is actually the least important part of the learning process.

    Even with shiity instruction, any student can succeed with the right amount of effort. In the case of Bubba, no instruction was needed at all (just a pile of video tapes and range balls). If Tiger had a better head on his shoulders he could have taken what he deemed important from his dad, Butch, Haney, etc… but no, he went lock stock and barrel into different swing mechanics treating his coaches as absolute.

    I really wonder why older pros use coaching… I don’t get it. Going back to the music world, you don’t see principal chairs of symphony orchestras taking lessons on orchestral repertoire and technique when they have been on the symphony gig for 20 years. I get it for the young 20-somethings… but I don’t understand why a talented successful 40 year old needs a coach in anything.
    Every serious golfer knows he needs another pair of eyes to see what he actually does. We simply can't feel subtle mistakes at the top or beginning of the downswing and through impact-- the portions of the golf swing that are controlled by the subconscious mind-- training becoming effective.

    So Jack Nicklaus asked teaching pros to stand behind him and watch his swing. They saw little things that he should try to change, usually things Jack couldn't feel. That is what Leadbetter does for his touring pro clients. He made Nick Price and dozens of others consistent enough to win.

    But I agree with the remainder of your post. Just as with music or dance lessons, the student learns what he should do-- and the rest is up to him. Those who persistently practice the right stuff become good. Most give up and never improve.

    The secret is patience and persistence. I believe the fundamentals we learn in lessons and then rehearse in slow motion and while hitting balls only a few yards, posing in the various swing positions, etc. etc. manifest slowly, over months as our subconscious mind works on it-- and then one morning we go out and we can do what we couldn't do yesterday. That is the way it always works. But it doesn't work for those who give up.

    I am a very good example. In the last few weeks I started playing seriously, often just hitting a few balls on the range before going out. "Suddenly" I can consistently hit drives, 3w off tight lies, long irons, and other difficult shots. I believe all that stuff I rehearsed over and over again ingrained-- and while I was asleep my subconscious mind just kept rehearsing and swinging away. One day on the course my "natural" swing was what my teaching pro taught me. No tension necessary, just setup and swing and I made a great divot and the balls went straight. I am putting for birdie quite often. So lessons paid off-- but only because I worked my butt off on the range to ingrain them. I shot 79 on a difficult course Sunday--even though I 3-putted several times on new bent grass greens-- that are very strange for S. Californians!

    Larry
    Last edited by Larryrsf; 04-10-2012 at 03:55 PM.

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    After Bubba did what he did this past week, he laid to rest all modern day beliefs of everyone needing golf instruction of any kind. He proved the theory I have been expounding for years here -- go dig a golf game out of the dirt.

    The very fact that Larry has been preaching golf lessons for everyone for years should be enough to make everyone run in the opposite direction. Anyone with half a brain and a good set of Mizuno irons can figure out everything they need to do for good scores on their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS View Post
    After Bubba did what he did this past week, he laid to rest all modern day beliefs of everyone needing golf instruction of any kind. He proved the theory I have been expounding for years here -- go dig a golf game out of the dirt.

    The very fact that Larry has been preaching golf lessons for everyone for years should be enough to make everyone run in the opposite direction. Anyone with half a brain and a good set of Mizuno irons can figure out everything they need to do for good scores on their own.
    Maybe for some, but not for those who want to quickly become able to hit fairways and greens and NOT play "recovery golf" from the rough and trees. The quickest way to develop an efficient golf swing is lessons and then patient and persistent drills to ingrain the new swing. PERIOD!

    Teaching ourselves is slow and painful because as Hogan said, "everything that feels natural is wrong!" We will accidently ingrain horrible mistakes because they feel good. So eventually the self-taught golfer must confront that the ball simply doesn't go straight often enough--and that if he wants to score he will need to unlearn a lot of stuff.

    Bubba has phenomenal talent, but also says his father stood behind him on the range for hours and hours-- encouraging him to hit it straight. That may be BETTER than lessons from a teaching pro we pay $120 an hour. So citing Bubba is not useful to most amateurs in the process of developing a golf game.

    So I repeat that the shortest path from beginner to good golf is lessons followed by practice to ingrain what was taught. This is EXACTLY the same pattern as learning to play guitar or dancing the Tango. Some teach themselves, but they usually give up after wasting time.

    See you out there. And remember that those who have taken lessons and learned to swing correctly will instantly recognize the silly efforts of those who have not. And there is NOTHING SILLIER LOOKING than a guy swinging expensive equipment with poor fundamentals, i.e. hacking.

    I hit them long and straight with Callaway BB OS Cavity backs on graphite shafts. Come to the range and lets stand side-by-side and hit 3i to a target 190 yards out. This would be an opportunity for you to prove Mizunos work better.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS View Post
    After Bubba did what he did this past week, he laid to rest all modern day beliefs of everyone needing golf instruction of any kind. He proved the theory I have been expounding for years here -- go dig a golf game out of the dirt.

    The very fact that Larry has been preaching golf lessons for everyone for years should be enough to make everyone run in the opposite direction. Anyone with half a brain and a good set of Mizuno irons can figure out everything they need to do for good scores on their own.
    But Larry just shot a 79 from the tips including a bunch of 3 putts. Doesn't this prove his theories are also valid? If he read Dave Pelz putting bible and did the drills he'd probably be playing off scratch .
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player View Post
    But Larry just shot a 79 from the tips including a bunch of 3 putts. Doesn't this prove his theories are also valid? If he read Dave Pelz putting bible and did the drills he'd probably be playing off scratch .
    Yeah the jackass shot a 79 but that was only because he didn't have time to play the last nine holes.

    Trust me, that retard didn't play 18 holes.

    That retard is the biggest liar and plagiarist on the internet.

    Larry that dishonest bastard didn't play golf that day; trust me on that...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBS View Post
    After Bubba did what he did this past week, he laid to rest all modern day beliefs of everyone needing golf instruction of any kind. He proved the theory I have been expounding for years here -- go dig a golf game out of the dirt.

    The very fact that Larry has been preaching golf lessons for everyone for years should be enough to make everyone run in the opposite direction. Anyone with half a brain and a good set of Mizuno irons can figure out everything they need to do for good scores on their own.
    I agree that you dont need to pay a teacher, but grtting instruction via youtube can speed up your progress. You still need to know that you are practising the right things.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    I started golfing when I was in my 30's, so I took lessons for the basics. Since then, every so often I have taken a lesson to work out something that I could not figure out. As I have gotten older my swing has gotten flatter, and more inside; this turned my draw into a hook. My pro set up a specific drill with a 2' piece of swimming noodle, set upright, forcing me to take the club outside of the noodle going back and inside of the noodle on the downswing. This effectively helped eliminate a flaw and I use it whenever the lefts show up. Other than aiding to find an answer to a specific problem that is not responding to my own adjustments, I see no reason for on going lessons beyond the basics.

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    Hmmm. Who to trust here? The implied opinion of the great majority of tour professionals who entrust their games with coaches or a bunch of weekend hacks who spend their time razzing each other on the internet. Tough one.
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    I have purposefully tried to stay out of this debate but failed.

    I have experience of both being largely self taught and taking lessons. I honestly think it depends on your mindset and what you want to achieve whether you want to be coached or not.

    I didn't take any lessons to speak of until I was perhaps 27 (I am 30 now). I got down to 2 quite quickly (by 15 years old) on the basis of an adequate long game and frankly sick good short game. Then I was picked by North of England to play for their U-16 team and we were all given free coaching and various other perks such as free golf balls etc... the coaching was in group sessions and I really took no notice as I was arrogant and thought I was doing OK.

    Anyway I didn't particularly practice and I turned up to events underprepared. It began to show over the years and whilst I did OK the guys who had listened and dedicated themselves became good and I stayed at a 2 handicap.

    Eventually I began working and stopped playing regularly. I slipped to a 4 handicap.

    When I was 27 I had become successful enough in my job to dedicate more time to my golf and decided to make a go at becoming good. I took lessons. It was clear that I was not technically very good but hit it well. I started working hard on my game with a local coach.

    Now I am back down to 2 with 10% of the short game I had as a kid. My long game is 60% better than it was then and I can control my ball flight and feel confident with all full shots.

    My view is if I had dedicated myself to matching what talent I had to proper swing mechanics in the early days I would have been a much better golfer. I love getting into the technical side of the swing and whilst my swing still has idiosyncrasies and is not near technically good I am learning all of the time and improving.

    I now work with a top end coach just for kicks. I don't want to ever turn pro even though I technically could have every year since I was 14.

    Others enjoy just getting on the course and hitting it and trying to beat their last score that way. It's all fine.
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    None of the low single digit handicappers I know take lessons. Many of these guys are in their 60's (one of them is 72) and they play about 3 times per week and always have some kind of team game going on. If you take lessons all the time all it means is that you enjoy taking lessons and like spending time on the range. Real golfers play the course and they get better by playing. Jack Nicklaus saw Jack Grout about 3 times per year and he's the best ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    None of the low single digit handicappers I know take lessons. Many of these guys are in their 60's (one of them is 72) and they play about 3 times per week and always have some kind of team game going on. If you take lessons all the time all it means is that you enjoy taking lessons and like spending time on the range. Real golfers play the course and they get better by playing. Jack Nicklaus saw Jack Grout about 3 times per year and he's the best ever.
    What you say may be what you believe to be true but that does not make it true. I agree that short game is all important and I'm sure these guys (and guys of similar ilk at my club) know how to get it round just fine. As I said this is great if that is what you or they want.

    I know plenty guys who are off 4 and below who take lessons regularly. Not every week but maybe once a month. I only take a lesson around once a month or sometimes every two months during the main season. I enjoy practicing though as you say.
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    My view, for what little it may be worth, is this: a few basic lessons from a qualified PGA teaching professional is a very worthwhile investment upon taking up the game. Even group lessons, which are cheap, are better than nothing.

    Then, as one progresses with golf, if he/she feels it might help to get a quick lesson on a particular thing with which he or she is struggling, well, that's fine too, provided one is so inclined.

    But for a recreational player to routinely see a swing coach must, on some level, approach insanity. If one was meant to play on a world class level, genetics would have seen to that. For most of us, nearly all of us, all the coaching in the world isn't going to make that happen.

    I'd suggest having fun rather than obsessing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pottsy View Post
    What you say may be what you believe to be true but that does not make it true. I agree that short game is all important and I'm sure these guys (and guys of similar ilk at my club) know how to get it round just fine. As I said this is great if that is what you or they want.

    I know plenty guys who are off 4 and below who take lessons regularly. Not every week but maybe once a month. I only take a lesson around once a month or sometimes every two months during the main season. I enjoy practicing though as you say.
    Pretty much agree with you here. I play with many who can move the ball around the course that have dug their swing out of the dirt, but if they would take some lessons they would improve past their current limitation(s). I think they are comfortable with the amount of time/dedication to their game. Like FD has posted, they just enjoy the game and are fine being a single digit cap.

    I usually start out each season with 3 lessons over a month or two. Then I'll probably take another 2 or 3 through the remaining season. If I had time I would devote the winter to more practice/lessons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul View Post
    Pretty much agree with you here. I play with many who can move the ball around the course that have dug their swing out of the dirt, but if they would take some lessons they would improve past their current limitation(s). I think they are comfortable with the amount of time/dedication to their game. Like FD has posted, they just enjoy the game and are fine being a single digit cap.

    I usually start out each season with 3 lessons over a month or two. Then I'll probably take another 2 or 3 through the remaining season. If I had time I would devote the winter to more practice/lessons.
    I have a pretty similar schedule to you. I don't like to constantly take lessons in the season. I like to check in and make sure I am swinging it good. I'll take the most lessons during the winter and a month before season opening tournament.

    I totally agree with you and FD that it's easily possible to shoot low 70s without tuition. I did it enough. And that for most people is enough. I am not much better score wise than I was before taking lessons but I am trending better and I feel progression. I don't have the luxury of much time to dedicate but when I can I do. I enjoy pushing my boundaries and trying hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    My view, for what little it may be worth, is this: a few basic lessons from a qualified PGA teaching professional is a very worthwhile investment upon taking up the game. Even group lessons, which are cheap, are better than nothing.

    Then, as one progresses with golf, if he/she feels it might help to get a quick lesson on a particular thing with which he or she is struggling, well, that's fine too, provided one is so inclined.

    But for a recreational player to routinely see a swing coach must, on some level, approach insanity. If one was meant to play on a world class level, genetics would have seen to that. For most of us, nearly all of us, all the coaching in the world isn't going to make that happen.

    I'd suggest having fun rather than obsessing.
    What if your idea of having fun is working hard at your game (obsessing)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pottsy View Post
    What if your idea of having fun is working hard at your game (obsessing)?
    That's cool too, potsy. Certainly nothing wrong with that. There are usually valid exceptions to every rule. When my nephew was little, my brother went through many a roll of quarters taking my nephew to the batting cage. People thought Carlo was a pain-in-the-ass dad pushing his son to win those league batting titles, but not at all--all along, it was the kid while "Nifty" got a bad rap.

    In general, however, I think that my approach to lessons fits most recreational players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a hacker View Post
    I agree that you dont need to pay a teacher, but grtting instruction via youtube can speed up your progress. You still need to know that you are practising the right things.
    Right on. And any intelligent person can watch half a dozen swing analysis videos by De Francisco for instance, and understand the golf swing and what is correct and incorrect. Then he can stand behind his friend or son and help him get it right. He may not know how to teach someone to correct a persistent fault most effectively, but certainly looking at too steep over and over again will soon result in the student learning that the quality of the turn back, whether syncronized or not, results in an on-plane backswing and top position. Bubba's father was reputedly a smart guy-- and likely that is the process they followed to develop Bubba's game. Logical, and it worked.

    I have seen high school golf team members go from beginner to scratch in a few months, one season. They learn from videos, books, the coach if he knows anything, and each other. They go from local course to course, often the best country clubs, get instruction from those top pros on those ranges. They are also capable of making PERMANENT swing changes in a few days! Something late beginners like me can only dream of.

    Larry

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    I have dug a swing out of the dirt, so to speak. I have hit thousands of balls with my homegrown swing, learning what works and what doesn't. I have my own feel for the golf swing and have internalized all the idiosyncracies into swing thoughts that only make sense to me. This was all done in the span of the 15 or so years I've been playing.
    For the past 3 or so years, practicing is not very high on my priority list. Family and work obligations only allow me one (sometimes 2 with the occasional Friday afternoon) chance per week to have any free time. This time is spent playing the game, not practicing. If I had my schedule from 10 years ago, I'd probably practice, take lessons, etal.
    I could probably be a deadbeat who misses dinners with the wife and kids in order to selfishly practice golf. I could probably give up fitness too. I could probably spend my lunches at a range instead of keeping relationships with clients. Priorities. Golf is low, practicing golf is lower.
    I hover between a 2 and 6 cap, beat the sh!t out of the ball, and enjoy playing. Good enough for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs View Post
    I have dug a swing out of the dirt, so to speak. I have hit thousands of balls with my homegrown swing, learning what works and what doesn't. I have my own feel for the golf swing and have internalized all the idiosyncracies into swing thoughts that only make sense to me. This was all done in the span of the 15 or so years I've been playing.
    For the past 3 or so years, practicing is not very high on my priority list. Family and work obligations only allow me one (sometimes 2 with the occasional Friday afternoon) chance per week to have any free time. This time is spent playing the game, not practicing. If I had my schedule from 10 years ago, I'd probably practice, take lessons, etal.
    I could probably be a deadbeat who misses dinners with the wife and kids in order to selfishly practice golf. I could probably give up fitness too. I could probably spend my lunches at a range instead of keeping relationships with clients. Priorities. Golf is low, practicing golf is lower.
    I hover between a 2 and 6 cap, beat the sh!t out of the ball, and enjoy playing. Good enough for me.
    And for most people.

    A few years ago I played nearly every day for several months and got my handicap down to 6 even though my swing sucked. I was "all arms" making a poor backswing and too steep downswing. So I sliced. I was starting to make more and more conscious compensations to keep it in play.. I was becoming better and better at "recovery" golf, digging it out of the rough and finding it in the trees and hitting it back in play with miracle recovery shots. Those who miss become deadly with wedge! I shot 78 on a tough area course from the tips in a formal SCGA tournament--won all their skins.

    But about that time I took a lesson. I saw my fundamental mistakes on video, realized why I couldn't hit it straight consistently, and decided to stop compensating and learn a correct golf swing. I basically quit playing for a year plus, just did lessons and drills and lessons and drills. Once I saw my swing, I realized that others did also, and I was ashamed to have good golfers think I was too stupid or lazy to get it right.

    But that is me. I understand that many, maybe most, amateurs don't mind hitting it sideways and they don't care what anyone thinks. It is still fun to be out there.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs View Post
    I have dug a swing out of the dirt, so to speak. I have hit thousands of balls with my homegrown swing, learning what works and what doesn't. I have my own feel for the golf swing and have internalized all the idiosyncracies into swing thoughts that only make sense to me. This was all done in the span of the 15 or so years I've been playing.
    For the past 3 or so years, practicing is not very high on my priority list. Family and work obligations only allow me one (sometimes 2 with the occasional Friday afternoon) chance per week to have any free time. This time is spent playing the game, not practicing. If I had my schedule from 10 years ago, I'd probably practice, take lessons, etal.
    I could probably be a deadbeat who misses dinners with the wife and kids in order to selfishly practice golf. I could probably give up fitness too. I could probably spend my lunches at a range instead of keeping relationships with clients. Priorities. Golf is low, practicing golf is lower.
    I hover between a 2 and 6 cap, beat the sh!t out of the ball, and enjoy playing. Good enough for me.
    Yep, same thing for me. I don't need someone to tell me how to ride a bicycle for the tenth time. I've always been the type who likes to play sports and compete. I get no satisfaction from going to a range with mats and hitting balls out onto the dirt. I've got other priorities other than golf so when I play, I play for real.

    I like to play a competition with a group of good friends for a low amount of money; just enough to have a little edge to the match. The whole point of golf is to be outside and out on the golf course. Besides, you get better at this game by playing in a competitive environment around people who are good.

    I guess if I were old and retired I might go out to the range to hit a few balls but I can't imagine why. It seems to me that it would be more fun to actually be out on the golf course. I imagine the same people going out by themselves to hit tennis balls against a wall.

    Some people play and some people pretend to play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    Yep, same thing for me. I don't need someone to tell me how to ride a bicycle for the tenth time. I've always been the type who likes to play sports and compete. I get no satisfaction from going to a range with mats and hitting balls out onto the dirt. I've got other priorities other than golf so when I play, I play for real.

    I like to play a competition with a group of good friends for a low amount of money; just enough to have a little edge to the match. The whole point of golf is to be outside and out on the golf course. Besides, you get better at this game by playing in a competitive environment around people who are good.

    I guess if I were old and retired I might go out to the range to hit a few balls but I can't imagine why. It seems to me that it would be more fun to actually be out on the golf course. I imagine the same people going out by themselves to hit tennis balls against a wall.

    Some people play and some people pretend to play.
    Absolutely. Playing golf without any competitive reward is like jerking off. Still get to jizz, just not a great experience.
    Playing a non-gambling round with friends is like a handjob.
    Playing in a comp, with side bets within the group, is like busting a nut on a strippers face after she's been sucking you off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf View Post
    Right on. And any intelligent person can watch half a dozen swing analysis videos by De Francisco for instance, and understand the golf swing and what is correct and incorrect. Then he can stand behind his friend or son and help him get it right. He may not know how to teach someone to correct a persistent fault most effectively, but certainly looking at too steep over and over again will soon result in the student learning that the quality of the turn back, whether syncronized or not, results in an on-plane backswing and top position. Bubba's father was reputedly a smart guy-- and likely that is the process they followed to develop Bubba's game. Logical, and it worked.

    I have seen high school golf team members go from beginner to scratch in a few months, one season. They learn from videos, books, the coach if he knows anything, and each other. They go from local course to course, often the best country clubs, get instruction from those top pros on those ranges. They are also capable of making PERMANENT swing changes in a few days! Something late beginners like me can only dream of.

    Larry
    Not to degrade what you've been saying on this topic, because I actually agree with you for once, but your logic on this one is at direct odds with the logic you use to suggest one should not be fitted for clubs. Just sayin.
    I keeps it real.

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    I think all professional athletes that have coaches are stupid. Mark McGuire, Pete Sampras, Tiger Woods. All dumb idiots just making their games worse.

    I'm actually starting to think Larry's argument that George W Bush should be respected is more intelligent than some of the opinions in this thread.
    I keeps it real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    Not to degrade what you've been saying on this topic, because I actually agree with you for once, but your logic on this one is at direct odds with the logic you use to suggest one should not be fitted for clubs. Just sayin.
    With Larry, this hardly comes as a surprise.

    One day it's, "Do what Hogan says! Hogan is the absolute authority, and I'm quoting him verbatim!".

    But point out that Hogan said that you need to use the hands, and suddenly it's, "Don't listen to Hogan! Those sentences don't really mean what they say!".



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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs View Post
    Absolutely. Playing golf without any competitive reward is like jerking off. Still get to jizz, just not a great experience.
    Playing a non-gambling round with friends is like a handjob.
    Playing in a comp, with side bets within the group, is like busting a nut on a strippers face after she's been sucking you off.
    Some people just can't get any better at golf no matter how many lessons they take. These old guys keep trying but just never get any better. They think that anyone who doesn't take lessons must be as bad as they are. Poor saps.

    I just go out there without practicing and shoot in the 70's, straight down the middle with my driver. Of course, I'll have a bad round every now and then just like anybody else.

    I've always been an athlete who did well at sports that were much harder for the average Joe or Larry. Take bowling for example. Last time I went bowling I shot 148, 167 and then 208. See that pattern? I have bowled about 10 times in the last 10 years.

    And handball? I beat everyone in elementary school. We later realized it was a girls sport so we quit in junior high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    I think all professional athletes that have coaches are stupid. Mark McGuire, Pete Sampras, Tiger Woods. All dumb idiots just making their games worse.

    I'm actually starting to think Larry's argument that George W Bush should be respected is more intelligent than some of the opinions in this thread.
    Comparing those world class sportsman who dedicate 100% of their time, energy and commitment to their sporting profession to a bunch of weekend hacks is silly.

    Most average golfers simply can't commit that much time to this game. Often lessons simply screw up golfers who don't have the time to commit to radical swing changes. If lessons make you go from say a low 80's shooter to a 90's shooter you give up in frustration and go back to your old habits. I used to see this all the time in tennis too. You watch a guy take a big flailing swing at the ball and send it sailing over the fence and the first thing you ask is "Have you been taking lessons?" The answer was usually "Yes!" which explained why the guy is trying to hit a forehand like Roger Federer as taught by his coach when he doesn't have the time or talent to play that way.

    I read the different opinions of guys like JonT, Pottsy, FD, Nifty Horseballs etc and think they all make sense based on the amount of time these guys have to spend on the game and their different aspirations and what they want out of this game.

    Comparing us to tour pros is silly.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player View Post
    Comparing those world class sportsman who dedicate 100% of their time, energy and commitment to their sporting profession to a bunch of weekend hacks is silly.

    Most average golfers simply can't commit that much time to this game. Often lessons simply screw up golfers who don't have the time to commit to radical swing changes. If lessons make you go from say a low 80's shooter to a 90's shooter you give up in frustration and go back to your old habits. I used to see this all the time in tennis too. You watch a guy take a big flailing swing at the ball and send it sailing over the fence and the first thing you ask is "Have you been taking lessons?" The answer was usually "Yes!" which explained why the guy is trying to hit a forehand like Roger Federer as taught by his coach when he doesn't have the time or talent to play that way.

    I read the different opinions of guys like JonT, Pottsy, FD, Nifty Horseballs etc and think they all make sense based on the amount of time these guys have to spend on the game and their different aspirations and what they want out of this game.

    Comparing us to tour pros is silly.
    My only aspiration in playing golf is to beat my opponent and shoot as low a score is possible. That's the way the game was meant to be played. Low score is what matters. Anyone who would rather practice and talk about it all day long is a poser and clearly not someone who can break 85. You can tell when someone is talking about a subject where they have no experience. You can tell they've never played any matches or in any organized events. Wannabees.

    It's not dissimilar to Obama talking business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    My only aspiration in playing golf is to beat my opponent and shoot as low a score is possible. That's the way the game was meant to be played. Low score is what matters. Anyone who would rather practice and talk about it all day long is a poser and clearly not someone who can break 85. You can tell when someone is talking about a subject where they have no experience. You can tell they've never played any matches or in any organized events. Wannabees.

    It's not dissimilar to Obama talking business.
    .........................Word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player View Post
    Comparing those world class sportsman who dedicate 100% of their time, energy and commitment to their sporting profession to a bunch of weekend hacks is silly.

    Most average golfers simply can't commit that much time to this game. Often lessons simply screw up golfers who don't have the time to commit to radical swing changes. If lessons make you go from say a low 80's shooter to a 90's shooter you give up in frustration and go back to your old habits. I used to see this all the time in tennis too. You watch a guy take a big flailing swing at the ball and send it sailing over the fence and the first thing you ask is "Have you been taking lessons?" The answer was usually "Yes!" which explained why the guy is trying to hit a forehand like Roger Federer as taught by his coach when he doesn't have the time or talent to play that way.

    I read the different opinions of guys like JonT, Pottsy, FD, Nifty Horseballs etc and think they all make sense based on the amount of time these guys have to spend on the game and their different aspirations and what they want out of this game.

    Comparing us to tour pros is silly.
    I was referring to comments like these:

    "I really wonder why older pros use coaching… I don’t get it. Going back to the music world, you don’t see principal chairs of symphony orchestras taking lessons on orchestral repertoire and technique when they have been on the symphony gig for 20 years. I get it for the young 20-somethings… but I don’t understand why a talented successful 40 year old needs a coach in anything."

    "Real golfers play the course and they get better by playing. Jack Nicklaus saw Jack Grout about 3 times per year and he's the best ever."

    "I don't need someone to tell me how to ride a bicycle for the tenth time."

    In no way, shape, or form were those comments qualified with "for guys that don't have time to perfect their games."
    I keeps it real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    I was referring to comments like these:

    "I really wonder why older pros use coaching… I don’t get it. Going back to the music world, you don’t see principal chairs of symphony orchestras taking lessons on orchestral repertoire and technique when they have been on the symphony gig for 20 years. I get it for the young 20-somethings… but I don’t understand why a talented successful 40 year old needs a coach in anything."

    "Real golfers play the course and they get better by playing. Jack Nicklaus saw Jack Grout about 3 times per year and he's the best ever."

    "I don't need someone to tell me how to ride a bicycle for the tenth time."

    In no way, shape, or form were those comments qualified with "for guys that don't have time to perfect their games."
    Roger Federer had a couple of prolonged periods without a coach, even when he was reigning world no.1. McEnroe never had a fulltime coach. Right now Tiger looks like some prolonged range sessions without a coach would do him good. He seems to have far too many swing thoughts going on right now and has forgotten how to hit a golf shot.
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player View Post
    Roger Federer had a couple of prolonged periods without a coach, even when he was reigning world no.1. McEnroe never had a fulltime coach. Right now Tiger looks like some prolonged range sessions without a coach would do him good. He seems to have far too many swing thoughts going on right now and has forgotten how to hit a golf shot.
    I disagree about Tiger. After reading Haney's book it appears that Tiger would go off on tangents with his swing and be all over the place. What Tiger needs is an instructor who can somehow keep him from dipping his head down at impact. Foley may be achieving that very thing. Tiger had a bad Masters but that doesn't really mean anything.

    After reading Haney's book, it's pretty clear that Haney kept expecting Tiger to open up with him and be generous with his friendship. He wanted Tiger to be someone that he isn't.

    The irony is that, while Hank complained about Tiger "not letting me in and not letting me get close" he later writes a book going into all kinds of personal details regarding Tiger's life. Gee Hank, do you still wonder why Tiger was hesitant to allow his golf coach to get close to his personal life? Maybe Tiger was concerned that if and when he dumped you, you'd get nasty and write some bad things about him. Amazing how that works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player View Post
    Roger Federer had a couple of prolonged periods without a coach, even when he was reigning world no.1. McEnroe never had a fulltime coach. Right now Tiger looks like some prolonged range sessions without a coach would do him good. He seems to have far too many swing thoughts going on right now and has forgotten how to hit a golf shot.
    While that may be true in Tiger's specific case, I think the thing that hasn't been mentioned about golf and coaching/instruction is that golf is about making a very precise strike where the margins for error are perishingly small.

    If small variations in Federer's tennis stroke start to creep in, they are largely outweighed by the other factors that make up the game.

    In golf, the entire game from tee to green IS the swing. So when inevitably small variations start to creep into your swing, your ability to succeed is affected in direct proportion. So the accomplished player needs a coach to keep his or her swing in the groove.

    At the other end, the beginner needs a coach simply because there is so much about swing a club that is counter-intuitive to people's common sense perceptions about how to make it work. That's why you see so many people struggling on the range when they try it on their own. Their common sense says to make the ball go up in the air, they need to get the clubhead moving up at impact. If the ball's going to far to the right, then swing more to the left, etc. Those people need instruction to help them get past those notions.

    However, there is a large group between those extremes who can—I think—largely work on their swings by themselves. Once you've been shown (or have finally figured out on your own) what it is you're trying to do and have started to have some success, so that you can perceive what a good swing what a good swing feels like, then you can work towards improving your swing to repeat that feeling.

    At least, that's what seemed to work for me.

    It took me a long time working on my own to figure out what a good swing was supposed to feel like, but once I got it, I was able to practice on my own to get down to my best handicap of about 9.3

    But now that I've plateaued, I think that having a pro is going to help me get to the next level. We'll see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul View Post
    While I agree with most of what you've posted, I don't agree with the symphony analogy. Blues or jazz would be a better analogy. Those musicians are always learning, sharing, pushing their skills, styles, etc. Same with Touring Pro's at a similar level. They are often sharing ideas, styles, approaches etc.

    My lesson's are no longer "OK Teach, what do you want me to do today?" They always start with a discussion of my swing, what I'm trying to improve etc. Their is give and take in the lesson. Even some disagreement.

    I imagine that a lesson with a PGA Touring Pro and his teacher is about that student and in a context of their swing and not a model swing. Tiger is an exception but he obviously sought out Foley and wanted to learn his style. But, again not any different than a senior musician learning a new style of music.
    I wouldn’t disagree with that. In fact, symphony musicians often do study new styles during their careers… but it sure isn’t on their bread and butter repertoire technique. It is usually on something like the Tabla drums or Brazilian music or even jazz improvisation because they are so bored playing the same compositions of dead guys. But the dead guy pieces they still do excellently, certainly without needing 5 technique changes during their career.

    Regarding jazz, you raise an excellent debate. In my view, jazz has become academic and theorized (kinda like the golf swing). All of Charlie Parker and John Coltrane’s licks have been transcribed, textbooked, and are now taught in 500 level classes… and the students produce a museum of be-bop at your local jazz club that is a very professional and yet a watered down, academic, and uninspired version of the real thing.

    Speaking of John Coltrane, he showed up at his recording sessions 6 hours early to practice simple scales and runs. Then he lit fire when the tape was running... just saying...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPS View Post
    I wouldn’t disagree with that. In fact, symphony musicians often do study new styles during their careers… but it sure isn’t on their bread and butter repertoire technique. It is usually on something like the Tabla drums or Brazilian music or even jazz improvisation because they are so bored playing the same compositions of dead guys. But the dead guy pieces they still do excellently, certainly without needing 5 technique changes during their career.

    Regarding jazz, you raise an excellent debate. In my view, jazz has become academic and theorized (kinda like the golf swing). All of Charlie Parker and John Coltrane’s licks have been transcribed, textbooked, and are now taught in 500 level classes… and the students produce a museum of be-bop at your local jazz club that is a very professional and yet a watered down, academic, and uninspired version of the real thing.

    Speaking of John Coltrane, he showed up at his recording sessions 6 hours early to practice simple scales and runs. Then he lit fire when the tape was running... just saying...
    I've never understood why human beings always need to compare one thing with another and then conveniently make them similar.

    Music and golf have nothing to do with one another. They are completely different and have nothing in common. The only purpose of comparing one to the other is to try and further an argument one way or the other.

    Musicians need to constantly practice because they are learning new songs. They keep practicing the song until they've got all of the movements memorized and can play it with harmony and make it sound right. However, and this is key, once they have a particular song down and memorized they can keep playing it over and over at a concert without ever having to practice it again.

    And so it is with the golf swing. We, as golfers, do not need to memorize a bunch of different golf swings like a piano player does with hundreds of different songs.

    We only need to memorize one full golf swing. Once we have adopted that golf swing, have the movements memorized in our heads and have actually used the swing with success on the golf course, the only thing left to do is to have a check-up with our instructor once a year.

    Once you have the correct golf swing memorized, there is no need for further instruction. The fundamentals may need to be checked but that's a 10-minute inspection.

    That's just the way it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I've never understood why human beings always need to compare one thing with another and then conveniently make them similar.

    Music and golf have nothing to do with one another. They are completely different and have nothing in common. The only purpose of comparing one to the other is to try and further an argument one way or the other.

    Musicians need to constantly practice because they are learning new songs. They keep practicing the song until they've got all of the movements memorized and can play it with harmony and make it sound right. However, and this is key, once they have a particular song down and memorized they can keep playing it over and over at a concert without ever having to practice it again.

    And so it is with the golf swing. We, as golfers, do not need to memorize a bunch of different golf swings like a piano player does with hundreds of different songs.

    We only need to memorize one full golf swing. Once we have adopted that golf swing, have the movements memorized in our heads and have actually used the swing with success on the golf course, the only thing left to do is to have a check-up with our instructor once a year.

    Once you have the correct golf swing memorized, there is no need for further instruction. The fundamentals may need to be checked but that's a 10-minute inspection.

    That's just the way it is.
    Except you make it sound like having it memorized means it never changes... ...and that's just not how the human brain works. Memory of all kinds is far more fluid than that. What you memorized a year ago will slowly change; be it a perceptual memory or a physical action.

    For a top level golfer, regular checks ensure that as the golf swing starts to drift from what's ideal, he or she can change it before it has drifted so far that changing it becomes more difficult and time consuming.

    Video your swing today, then don't look at it again for the next 6 months—just go out and play. Then video it again.

    I guarantee you: the swings won't look the same.

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    [QUOTE=CPS;268181]I wouldn’t disagree with that. In fact, symphony musicians often do study new styles during their careers… but it sure isn’t on their bread and butter repertoire technique. It is usually on something like the Tabla drums or Brazilian music or even jazz improvisation because they are so bored playing the same compositions of dead guys. But the dead guy pieces they still do excellently, certainly without needing 5 technique changes during their career.

    Regarding jazz, you raise an excellent debate. In my view, jazz has become academic and theorized (kinda like the golf swing). All of Charlie Parker and John Coltrane’s licks have been transcribed, textbooked, and are now taught in 500 level classes… and the students produce a museum of be-bop at your local jazz club that is a very professional and yet a watered down, academic, and uninspired version of the real thing.

    Speaking of John Coltrane, he showed up at his recording sessions 6 hours early to practice simple scales and runs. Then he lit fire when the tape was running... just saying...[/QUOTE]

    Miles was a tough task-master. I caught Coltrane and quintet in a dive club in Paris in 1965. Wore out the "Love Supreme" record in '67. I still listen to him frequently. Re: Jazz "purists", the funniest thing I ever read was the liner notes on a re-mastered CD of Miles' "Kind of Blue" which came out around 1958 or so. It contains some classics such as "All Blues" that jazz musicians have been covering forever. The liner notes explain how the CD I bought was recorded from the original master tape and that all previous versions were recorded at a slightly higher speed so that everyone was playing the music out of pitch from the original. On guitar its no big deal but having started out alto sax, its a b*tch.
    Last edited by mongrel; 04-11-2012 at 01:37 PM. Reason: error
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I've never understood why human beings always need to compare one thing with another and then conveniently make them similar.

    Music and golf have nothing to do with one another. They are completely different and have nothing in common. The only purpose of comparing one to the other is to try and further an argument one way or the other.

    Musicians need to constantly practice because they are learning new songs. They keep practicing the song until they've got all of the movements memorized and can play it with harmony and make it sound right. However, and this is key, once they have a particular song down and memorized they can keep playing it over and over at a concert without ever having to practice it again.

    And so it is with the golf swing. We, as golfers, do not need to memorize a bunch of different golf swings like a piano player does with hundreds of different songs.

    We only need to memorize one full golf swing. Once we have adopted that golf swing, have the movements memorized in our heads and have actually used the swing with success on the golf course, the only thing left to do is to have a check-up with our instructor once a year.

    Once you have the correct golf swing memorized, there is no need for further instruction. The fundamentals may need to be checked but that's a 10-minute inspection.

    That's just the way it is.
    Assuming you can continue to make the same move throughout your entire life.

    Your analogy isn't exactly true. Stop playing for a few months and your not going to be at concert level. Your brain just doesn't work that way. It would be cool if it did but if you don't use it you do loose it. Relearning it is faster but you still have to put in the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker View Post
    Except you make it sound like having it memorized means it never changes... ...and that's just not how the human brain works. Memory of all kinds is far more fluid than that. What you memorized a year ago will slowly change; be it a perceptual memory or a physical action.

    For a top level golfer, regular checks ensure that as the golf swing starts to drift from what's ideal, he or she can change it before it has drifted so far that changing it becomes more difficult and time consuming.

    Video your swing today, then don't look at it again for the next 6 months—just go out and play. Then video it again.

    I guarantee you: the swings won't look the same.

    I never said it doesn't change. I think it's natural for us as human beings to make little changes throughout the year that compensate for one thing or another. For example, I know that over the course of a year my stance will move from closed to slightly open depending on how I'm hitting it. Sometimes I'll go from being more upright to slightly bent over. My grip will go from strong to only slightly strong. Sometimes i'll intentionally fade the ball and sometimes I'll try to draw it more.

    The best way to maintain a consistent swing is to fade the ball on one shot and then draw the next one. This method keeps your swing from drifting too far one way or the other. That's why Bubba Watson's swing always looks the same year after year. He'll draw a ball 50 yards but then he'll fade the next shot. It keeps him in equillibrium and I think I've just accidentally discovered something brilliant. THE KEY TO A CONSISTENT GOLF SWING IS TO SWING INCONSISTENTLY!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    Not to degrade what you've been saying on this topic, because I actually agree with you for once, but your logic on this one is at direct odds with the logic you use to suggest one should not be fitted for clubs. Just sayin.
    Well, it is just logical. But then I have experience most here don't. I learned to hit balls straight with a Whippy training club. That took weeks. I learned how to accelerate the clubhead on plane without using leverage on the handle. I learned NOT to bend the shaft with hand pressure in the futile attempt to make the clubhead go faster or guide it through impact. I learned that when I swung it smoothly and centrifugally I could hit 10 good shots in a row-- the essence of consistency.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2QIrEoU-w

    So applying that experience to the debate about clubshaft flex characteristics or various attributes of the clubheads, I learned that those are meaningless factors in a good golf swing. A good swing hits the ball straight and long with any golf club. The clubs themselves won't make ONE stroke difference in a round of golf. ERGO, "fitting" is a sucker trap. They want sucker amateurs to spend WAY too much for modified equipment that will be worthless on the used market.

    So I play graphite Callaway OS Cavity backs. BUT, I can also hit them straight with an ancient Haig Ultra 3i forged blade on heavy steel shaft. The only difference is that equal distance with the old blade requires MUCH more effort because the weight of the shaft makes my swing inefficient.

    Just my 2 cents. But I would happily stand beside you on the range and hit 10 balls to any distance and compare the resulting pattern. A long iron from a tight lie would be my preference because so few amateurs can hit one consistently.

    Larry

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    There are so many things wrong with golf instruction that it's difficult to know where to start the discussion. Clear your schedule and fetch your reading glasses and thinking caps - I'm not going to dumb this down.

    1. The "Secret"

    First and foremost, is the misconception by beginners or lesser skilled players that there's some sort of "secret" to becoming a better player, and that you can only learn this "secret" by consulting an instructor and buying in to some secret society of golf information by taking lessons. This simply isn't true, at all. There are no SECRETS being kept from us by pros and instructors - the world's most elite golfers play the game on live TV every week. Every aspect of their game is available for public scrutiny. We all have access to the same "insider" information as the pros and instructors, and an equal opportunity to both study and analyze the exact same samples. The "secret" is hidden in plain sight for all to see.

    2. Credibility Of Instruction/Information

    This goes beyond the reputations of the instructors. I'm talking about the REAL validity of the instructor's understanding of the game and the validity of the methods used to derive that understanding. The vast majority of instructors are what I would call copycats. They look at large numbers of accomplished players, look for the most commonly shared traits among the better players, and tell us that since these traits are common among the best players, that we should all strive to acquire these same traits in our own swings.

    That's about as unscientific an approach to understanding the game as you can get. It's nothing more than correlation, and too many instructors are given a free pass by both their peers and their students because they don't know enough to ask the right questions.

    The instructors copy the HOW from the best players in the world, and when we ask WHY we are told that it's because the best players in the world all do it. That's a logical fallacy. The question SHOULD be "Why does it work for the best players?" therefore the answer cannot simply be "Because it does.", as this does not provide any useful insight into the cause/effect relation tying the technique to the result.

    If an instructor spends most of their time getting students into "positions" that's a big red flag for me. Those types of instructors clearly don't understand the true causality of the dynamic motions which will create those positions. All of those positions are RESULTS of the application of proper dynamic motion. It's impossible to create a proper dynamic motion without achieving those key positions, but as we all can see from the absolute abundance of available evidence - it's quite easy to achieve a sequence of these key positions and still fail to produce a consistently repeatable and fundamentally sound dynamic motion.

    There's a really good reason for this as well. Let's face it, not many instructors or well known swing gurus have taken a scientific approach to understanding the swing. Sure, many of them seem as if they have to a layperson (I'm still amazed by how easily duped the average Joe is... just throw in a few big words and make everything sound complicated and confusing and they become easy marks), but under true scientific scrutiny their methods quickly become exposed for the pseudo-science they really are. It's to be expected, really. It's what happens when dumb jocks try to make sense of mechanics and physics with little if any background in critical thinking, the scientific method, physics, etc...

    3. Contradiction

    Obviously, this is a problem related to the credibility/validity argument, and is evidence which directly supports that argument.

    There is no semblance of consensus on how to play this game well, and in large part this is due to the lack of an applied scientific approach in trying to figure out what works, what doesn't, and WHY.

    Ask the same question to 10 different instructors and you'll likely get 10 different answers. Obviously they're not ALL correct - they can't be. The real problem arises when students get confronted with this reality. If the student knew enough to determine who is actually right and who is dead wrong, then they probably wouldn't need an instructor in the first place. The fact is that the students simply don't know enough to make that determination, and the only way to fix this problem is to address the credibility/validity issue by holding instructors to a quantifiable higher standard.

    Now obviously, since golf is just a recreational game for most players it would be unrealistic to expect the same standard of education you would receive in say... a military academy - where your life could depend on the quality of the instruction. Still, it wouldn't be difficult to do better than what we have now, which is IMO about on par with an oral history of the past 4 centuries as told by aboriginal hunter-gatherers.

    4. Perceived Importance Of Instruction

    I'm just going to start by stating the obvious - it's important to learn as much as possible about the game and the swing so that a player can develop an understanding of both how best to play, and an understanding of their own game such that each player can learn to identify their own deficiencies, and to know what needs to be done to improve.

    That being said, it's plain for all to read that I don't place a lot of credibility in the vast majority of what is being taught and how it is taught. Thus, I think a golf lesson today has about the same value as a lottery ticket. There's a chance that a lesson will end up being worth more than you paid for it, but IMO that chance is slimmer than most think due to all the factors I've mentioned previously. The value of a lesson is directly proportional to the understanding gained from it.

    The goal of taking lessons should be to learn enough so that you don't have to take any more lessons. Just like we don't go back to elementary school once a year for a refresher course in basic arithmetic, we shouldn't ever have to learn the same lesson twice from a golf instructor either.

    I get that some people are intellectually lazy and are perfectly happy to have someone else keep tabs on them and do all their thinking and problem solving for them... but those people will also have to accept that not learning these things for themselves is going to be a major contributing factor in all their future failures at golf.

    At some point you have to man up and handle your own business. Expecting to learn how to play this game at a high level without rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty is a recipe for failure. Good golf is hard work, both physically and mentally. You can't just go out and buy a game, whether it be through new clubs, or through lessons.

    Good golf is something you EARN through learning, understanding, and lots of practice.

    Flame away, gentlemen.



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    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature View Post

    There are so many things wrong with golf instruction that it's difficult to know where to start the discussion.

    Good golf is something you EARN through learning, understanding, and lots of practice.
    FON
    I take lessons on a driving range where 20+ amateurs are hitting balls. So the pros and the students can watch the carnage.

    And they do watch them. Now and then a teaching pro will see something almost painful, some poor guy who is there every day hitting $12 worth of balls and just getting worse. Sometimes the jpro walks over and offer the guy a free look at himself on video, no conditions, no obligation. And sometimes the guy takes him up on it and sees how awful he looks and how different his swing is from that of a good player. The smart ones realize they have been practicing mistakes-- and either start lessons then and there or go away and think about it. some of them just keep doing it, I suppose expecting a different result (Einstein's definition of insanity!).

    Bottom line: most who try to teach themselves the golf swing ingrain mistakes. "lots of practice" doesn't work because they are practicing poor fundamentals, actually ingraining fatal errors. So even after 40 years, they never improve-- but when they eventually want to get serious and learn a real swing, it is almost impossible, hopeless. Few are persistent enough to do what is necessary.

    But don't believe me, just go to any public driving range and watch them wasting money and time.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf View Post
    I take lessons on a driving range where 20+ amateurs are hitting balls. So the pros and the students can watch the carnage.

    And they do watch them. Now and then a teaching pro will see something almost painful, some poor guy who is there every day hitting $12 worth of balls and just getting worse. Sometimes the jpro walks over and offer the guy a free look at himself on video, no conditions, no obligation. And sometimes the guy takes him up on it and sees how awful he looks and how different his swing is from that of a good player. The smart ones realize they have been practicing mistakes-- and either start lessons then and there or go away and think about it. some of them just keep doing it, I suppose expecting a different result (Einstein's definition of insanity!).



    Bottom line: most who try to teach themselves the golf swing ingrain mistakes. "lots of practice" doesn't work because they are practicing poor fundamentals, actually ingraining fatal errors. So even after 40 years, they never improve-- but when they eventually want to get serious and learn a real swing, it is almost impossible, hopeless. Few are persistent enough to do what is necessary.

    But don't believe me, just go to any public driving range and watch them wasting money and time.

    Larry
    This doesn't make any sense. First, how do you know what level of improvement these people will achieve over 40 years. Are you saying that just by looking at some of the beginners on the range that you are convinced they are foolish and just wasting their time?

    There is a big difference between practice and experimentation. Most people that teach themselves are in a constant state of experimentation. They aren't really practicing anything. Their swing is in a constant state of evolution. They are developing hand eye coordination and feel. Their process may be slow and inefficient but in the end they will own their swing and not be reliant on an instructor when something goes wrong.

    There is nothing wrong with formal instruction but there isn't one correct way to get good at golf!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDB1 View Post
    This doesn't make any sense. First, how do you know what level of improvement these people will achieve over 40 years. Are you saying that just by looking at some of the beginners on the range that you are convinced they are foolish and just wasting their time?

    There is a big difference between practice and experimentation. Most people that teach themselves are in a constant state of experimentation. They aren't really practicing anything. Their swing is in a constant state of evolution. They are developing hand eye coordination and feel. Their process may be slow and inefficient but in the end they will own their swing and not be reliant on an instructor when something goes wrong.

    There is nothing wrong with formal instruction but there isn't one correct way to get good at golf!
    I agree that most people who do not take lessons never focus on the fundamentals long enough to ingrain a good swing. They never really "get it" and become confident enough to play with what they have. So every week they find a new miracle and hope again that that is the key, But then that stops working and they shoot 90+ and find themselves in the trees and deep rough over and over again, making emergency swing changes during the round, same old, same old. Johnny Miller talks about this phenomenon, the WOOD, "worked only one day."

    I know guys who have been doing that for YEARS, since they were in their 20s. Instead of becoming a solidly good golfer and just playing like their buddies who are now Club Champ and/or competing in the state amateur championships, 40 years later they are still wildly erratic. They might shoot 75 or 95. So every week they go to the range and experiment again, trying new feelings, the latest thing they read in a golf magazine. Sometimes they take lessons, but a week later they have abandoned what they were taught-- reverting again to the same old, same old.

    Ask any teaching pro, there are thousands of older amateurs like that.

    And all the time the answer was right there in front of them. All they had to do was commit to a series of lessons from a good pro. Tell the pro he will keep coming back until he has a repeating swing and that he will do the drills and/or stop playing until his swing is permanently changed. Once he hears that, the pro will do the rest. He will understand because most of them were once where their students were-- before he committed to finishing what he started.

    The answer is NOT talent, but commitment. The same answer that explains how some become able to just play a few notes and some become able to entertain on guitar or piano. It is commitment, persistence.

    Larry

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    Larry,

    We will be enemies in most other threads, but on this topic...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SDB1 View Post
    This doesn't make any sense. First, how do you know what level of improvement these people will achieve over 40 years. Are you saying that just by looking at some of the beginners on the range that you are convinced they are foolish and just wasting their time?

    There is a big difference between practice and experimentation. Most people that teach themselves are in a constant state of experimentation. They aren't really practicing anything. Their swing is in a constant state of evolution. They are developing hand eye coordination and feel. Their process may be slow and inefficient but in the end they will own their swing and not be reliant on an instructor when something goes wrong.

    There is nothing wrong with formal instruction but there isn't one correct way to get good at golf!
    Paying any attention to what Larry has to say about golf is a mug's game.
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    Disclaimer : I know I'm not supposed to, so infract away, unless you have infractile dysfunction. Flaunt your e-boners and infract me. I don't give a sh!t, I'm making an exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf View Post
    I take lessons on a driving range where 20+ amateurs are hitting balls. So the pros and the students can watch the carnage.
    Big hairy deal. I practice on a range where 20+ students taking lessons will suddenly stop paying attention to their instructor as soon as they see me hitting balls in their vicinity. Especially if I start hitting driver. It's a good thing I'm good friends with the pro or I would have told him to go fukk himself when he politely asked me to move to the other end of the range so as not to distract his paying students. These students who need to work on chipping and putting before they worry about hitting 300+ yard drives like I'm doing. I respect the man, and I respect his customers, so I comply. I did receive free group lessons from the guy when I was a junior, after all. I've known him for 25 years. Also... 3 of my best junior buddies are now certified CPGA teaching professionals as well. If we're still making arguments from authority here.

    And they do watch them. Now and then a teaching pro will see something almost painful, some poor guy who is there every day hitting $12 worth of balls and just getting worse. Sometimes the jpro walks over and offer the guy a free look at himself on video, no conditions, no obligation. And sometimes the guy takes him up on it and sees how awful he looks and how different his swing is from that of a good player. The smart ones realize they have been practicing mistakes-- and either start lessons then and there or go away and think about it. some of them just keep doing it, I suppose expecting a different result (Einstein's definition of insanity!).
    And how exactly do these pros prove that they know what they're talking about? Is it because they're teaching the traits that are common to the best players in the world? Either you didn't read a damn word of my previous post, or you're too thick to understand it. You are such a MARK.

    Bottom line: most who try to teach themselves the golf swing ingrain mistakes. "lots of practice" doesn't work because they are practicing poor fundamentals, actually ingraining fatal errors. So even after 40 years, they never improve-- but when they eventually want to get serious and learn a real swing, it is almost impossible, hopeless. Few are persistent enough to do what is necessary.

    But don't believe me, just go to any public driving range and watch them wasting money and time.

    Larry
    Even teachers have to go to school to learn their trade. Most of the shmucks you describe who try teaching themselves haven't even been to school and that's why they fail. They never learn what to learn, or worse yet - they end up like you and don't even know HOW to learn. No amount of lessons can fix a player who just doesn't know how to learn. that's the #1 reason you still suck at golf Larry. You're wealthy enough to pay for the lessons, have enough free time to practice all the things your instructors try to teach you, but unfortunately... you suck at learning, therefore no matter how much you spend on lessons you'll continue to suck at golf, and will require weekly lessons just to get a sniff at shooting in the 80's.

    It must really eat you up inside that you've encountered a source of status that your money alone can't buy you.

    You just keep believing that good old Liberal mantra of "if you spend enough money on it, eventually it'll work properly".

    Freak's Tip Of The Day - instead of rationalizing, try REASONING. You'll look like less of an idiot among your peers.



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    Quote Originally Posted by FreakOfNature View Post
    Disclaimer : I know I'm not supposed to, so infract away, unless you have infractile dysfunction. Flaunt your e-boners and infract me. I don't give a sh!t, I'm making an exception.



    Big hairy deal. I practice on a range where 20+ students taking lessons will suddenly stop paying attention to their instructor as soon as they see me hitting balls in their vicinity. Especially if I start hitting driver. It's a good thing I'm good friends with the pro or I would have told him to go fukk himself when he politely asked me to move to the other end of the range so as not to distract his paying students. These students who need to work on chipping and putting before they worry about hitting 300+ yard drives like I'm doing. I respect the man, and I respect his customers, so I comply. I did receive free group lessons from the guy when I was a junior, after all. I've known him for 25 years. Also... 3 of my best junior buddies are now certified CPGA teaching professionals as well. If we're still making arguments from authority here.



    And how exactly do these pros prove that they know what they're talking about? Is it because they're teaching the traits that are common to the best players in the world? Either you didn't read a damn word of my previous post, or you're too thick to understand it. You are such a MARK.



    Even teachers have to go to school to learn their trade. Most of the shmucks you describe who try teaching themselves haven't even been to school and that's why they fail. They never learn what to learn, or worse yet - they end up like you and don't even know HOW to learn. No amount of lessons can fix a player who just doesn't know how to learn. that's the #1 reason you still suck at golf Larry. You're wealthy enough to pay for the lessons, have enough free time to practice all the things your instructors try to teach you, but unfortunately... you suck at learning, therefore no matter how much you spend on lessons you'll continue to suck at golf, and will require weekly lessons just to get a sniff at shooting in the 80's.

    It must really eat you up inside that you've encountered a source of status that your money alone can't buy you.

    You just keep believing that good old Liberal mantra of "if you spend enough money on it, eventually it'll work properly".

    Freak's Tip Of The Day - instead of rationalizing, try REASONING. You'll look like less of an idiot among your peers.



    FON
    Of course you could come to the conclusion that larie lacks athletic abilities.

    To use his music analogy, he can learn notes, scales, etc. but can't play a song with meaning or soul to save his life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alangbaker View Post
    Paying any attention to what Larry has to say about golf is a mug's game.
    Hmmm ... really?

    How many years you been pursuing the old fool, responding to his every post, across how many multiple forums?
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf View Post
    I agree that most people who do not take lessons never focus on the fundamentals long enough to ingrain a good swing. They never really "get it" and become confident enough to play with what they have. So every week they find a new miracle and hope again that that is the key, But then that stops working and they shoot 90+ and find themselves in the trees and deep rough over and over again, making emergency swing changes during the round, same old, same old. Johnny Miller talks about this phenomenon, the WOOD, "worked only one day."

    I know guys who have been doing that for YEARS, since they were in their 20s. Instead of becoming a solidly good golfer and just playing like their buddies who are now Club Champ and/or competing in the state amateur championships, 40 years later they are still wildly erratic. They might shoot 75 or 95. So every week they go to the range and experiment again, trying new feelings, the latest thing they read in a golf magazine. Sometimes they take lessons, but a week later they have abandoned what they were taught-- reverting again to the same old, same old.

    Ask any teaching pro, there are thousands of older amateurs like that.

    And all the time the answer was right there in front of them. All they had to do was commit to a series of lessons from a good pro. Tell the pro he will keep coming back until he has a repeating swing and that he will do the drills and/or stop playing until his swing is permanently changed. Once he hears that, the pro will do the rest. He will understand because most of them were once where their students were-- before he committed to finishing what he started.

    The answer is NOT talent, but commitment. The same answer that explains how some become able to just play a few notes and some become able to entertain on guitar or piano. It is commitment, persistence.

    Larry
    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul View Post
    Of course you could come to the conclusion that larie lacks athletic abilities.
    I do tend to frequently state the obvious, but this is too obvious - even for me. It simply does not need to be said.

    Larry plays golf left-handed. I play golf right-handed. I could play left-handed and still beat him straight up. If I played him straight up on my natural side I'd probably have to give him 6 a side just to get the match to 12 holes. And I'm not even any kind of athlete, outside of my hockey background... (I was and still am an unusually strong, fast, and adept skater, it's too bad I stickhandle the puck like it's made of dynamite. #handsofstone)

    To use his music analogy, he can learn notes, scales, etc. but can't play a song with meaning or soul to save his life.
    As a musician, I would liken it more to learning how to play piano whilst trying to play the trombone. He knows what music sounds like, and can perhaps even play an instrument... he just never plays the instrument he's holding, or the song his band is playing, and he's always off-key.

    Still, all joking aside... I don't really buy the argument that athleticism is what holds him back. I know lots of old unathletic guys who can shoot low 80's and even into the mid/low 70's... guys who Larry could for sure kick their asses in a fight, some of them anyways... yet they would royally wax him on the golf course.

    Some people have the smarts to make the most of what they've got, and then there's Larry... who could actually be a decent player for his age, but he's too stuck on trying to gain authority by flapping his gums trying to be a swing guru rather than taking what he learns and putting it into practice.

    There is very little in life you'll encounter which is more ridiculous than a guy who doesn't even take the game seriously, who will spend a small fortune on golf instruction, not to USE IT, but to simply brag about it on the internet, as if spending a sh!tload on lessons is all it takes to become an authority.





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  66. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    There's nothing new in this world, I guess. That's the old Moe Norman "Natural Golf" swing.
    Nifty thats called 'The Impact Zone', Bobby Clampett wrote that book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf View Post
    Well, it is just logical. But then I have experience most here don't. I learned to hit balls straight with a Whippy training club. That took weeks. I learned how to accelerate the clubhead on plane without using leverage on the handle. I learned NOT to bend the shaft with hand pressure in the futile attempt to make the clubhead go faster or guide it through impact. I learned that when I swung it smoothly and centrifugally I could hit 10 good shots in a row-- the essence of consistency.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW2QIrEoU-w

    So applying that experience to the debate about clubshaft flex characteristics or various attributes of the clubheads, I learned that those are meaningless factors in a good golf swing. A good swing hits the ball straight and long with any golf club. The clubs themselves won't make ONE stroke difference in a round of golf. ERGO, "fitting" is a sucker trap. They want sucker amateurs to spend WAY too much for modified equipment that will be worthless on the used market.

    So I play graphite Callaway OS Cavity backs. BUT, I can also hit them straight with an ancient Haig Ultra 3i forged blade on heavy steel shaft. The only difference is that equal distance with the old blade requires MUCH more effort because the weight of the shaft makes my swing inefficient.

    Just my 2 cents. But I would happily stand beside you on the range and hit 10 balls to any distance and compare the resulting pattern. A long iron from a tight lie would be my preference because so few amateurs can hit one consistently.

    Larry
    If I lived near you I'd more than happily take you up on your challenge and I'd win!

    Fitting is important as the correct lie and length of a golf club for instance dictates how far you should stand from the ball, how upright you are and the swing plane that you should swing on with that club.
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I've never understood why human beings always need to compare one thing with another and then conveniently make them similar.

    Music and golf have nothing to do with one another. They are completely different and have nothing in common. The only purpose of comparing one to the other is to try and further an argument one way or the other.
    I'm both a drummer and a golfer and all I have to say is, you are absolutely wrong... but certainly entitled to your opinion.

    My 60 degree pitch shot on the 5th hole of my home course is NO different than a 4th movement cymbal crash of a Mahler symphony in terms of experience, preparation, feel, and execution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPS View Post
    I'm both a drummer and a golfer and all I have to say is, you are absolutely wrong... but certainly entitled to your opinion.

    My 60 degree pitch shot on the 5th hole of my home course is NO different than a 4th movement cymbal crash of a Mahler symphony in terms of experience, preparation, feel, and execution.

    I've played piano since I was in fourth grade. I think it's safe to say that my opinion holds a little more weight than that of a drummer.

    Besides, anyone who needs a 60 degree wedge clearly needs to work on their iron game.

    Carry on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I've played piano since I was in fourth grade.


    Now we know where your conservatism comes from...repressed gayness.
    I keeps it real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post


    Now we know where your conservatism comes from...repressed gayness.
    You must be one of those people who never played a musical instrument and listened to music, instead playing air guitar in your bedroom. Having dates with Rosie Palms.

    I played piano, played QB on my sophmore football team and played baseball.

    I'm the man you wish you could be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I've played piano since I was in fourth grade. I think it's safe to say that my opinion holds a little more weight than that of a drummer.

    Besides, anyone who needs a 60 degree wedge clearly needs to work on their iron game.

    Carry on.
    You are not all that wrong... the second shot has always been the weakest link in my game. I suppose I should switch my i5's for some Eye 2's eh?
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  73. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I disagree about Tiger. After reading Haney's book it appears that Tiger would go off on tangents with his swing and be all over the place. What Tiger needs is an instructor who can somehow keep him from dipping his head down at impact. Foley may be achieving that very thing. Tiger had a bad Masters but that doesn't really mean anything.

    After reading Haney's book, it's pretty clear that Haney kept expecting Tiger to open up with him and be generous with his friendship. He wanted Tiger to be someone that he isn't.

    The irony is that, while Hank complained about Tiger "not letting me in and not letting me get close" he later writes a book going into all kinds of personal details regarding Tiger's life. Gee Hank, do you still wonder why Tiger was hesitant to allow his golf coach to get close to his personal life? Maybe Tiger was concerned that if and when he dumped you, you'd get nasty and write some bad things about him. Amazing how that works.
    Too bad he had his best years with Hank though.............

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    Quote Originally Posted by huskyhater View Post
    Too bad he had his best years with Hank though.............
    He had his best years with Butch Harmon. Everyone knows that. More wins, more majors, etc. Things started going downhill with Haney. Butch was a better mentor and would have kept him out of trouble. That's what a good coach is supposed to do. Stevie should have kept him out of trouble is well. That's why they are both gone--they didn't do their jobs. If anything they owe Tiger an apology.

  75. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post


    Now we know where your conservatism comes from...repressed gayness.
    HAHA buddha, too funny-post of the month!

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    Tiger's constant swing tinkering has everything to do with trying to compensate for injuries.

    He needs to find a swing that doesn't hurt, regardless of what it looks like, and then learn to score with it. He still has the talent to do that.

    The fact that he hasn't figured that out on his own makes me wonder how he got into Stanford.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    Tiger's constant swing tinkering has everything to do with trying to compensate for injuries.

    He needs to find a swing that doesn't hurt, regardless of what it looks like, and then learn to score with it. He still has the talent to do that.

    The fact that he hasn't figured that out on his own makes me wonder how he got into Stanford.
    You're just guessing here. Tiger has always wanted to improve and that's why he's made swing changes. He did make the swing change with Haney to protect the knee but that's the only documented change we are aware of.

    Tiger needs to go back to the swing that won him his first masters. This was before he shortened his backswing and tightened it up with Butch. I have no doubt that Tiger would have 20 majors right now if he had never changed his '97 Masters swing. I don't think he'd have as many tour wins but he'd have more majors. Trust me on this. I know this kind of stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    You're just guessing here. Tiger has always wanted to improve and
    I watch the kid walk and move around. His tendons and ligaments are completely toast. Mine are probably better at age 65.

    Again, if it were I with that kind of talent, I'd find a swing that doesn't hurt and learn to score with it.

    If Tiger went to even the Charles Barkley swing and stuck to it, learning how to score with it, he'd win at least three more majors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    You must be one of those people who never played a musical instrument and listened to music, instead playing air guitar in your bedroom. Having dates with Rosie Palms.

    I played piano, played QB on my sophmore football team and played baseball.

    I'm the man you wish you could be.
    I'm just razzin' ya. I'm sure there were plenty of good towel-snapping times in the football locker room.
    I keeps it real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pottsy View Post
    If I lived near you I'd more than happily take you up on your challenge and I'd win!

    Fitting is important as the correct lie and length of a golf club for instance dictates how far you should stand from the ball, how upright you are and the swing plane that you should swing on with that club.

    I chose the road less traveled.

    Now where the f#ck am I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I disagree about Tiger. After reading Haney's book it appears that Tiger would go off on tangents with his swing and be all over the place. What Tiger needs is an instructor who can somehow keep him from dipping his head down at impact. Foley may be achieving that very thing. Tiger had a bad Masters but that doesn't really mean anything.

    After reading Haney's book, it's pretty clear that Haney kept expecting Tiger to open up with him and be generous with his friendship. He wanted Tiger to be someone that he isn't.

    The irony is that, while Hank complained about Tiger "not letting me in and not letting me get close" he later writes a book going into all kinds of personal details regarding Tiger's life. Gee Hank, do you still wonder why Tiger was hesitant to allow his golf coach to get close to his personal life? Maybe Tiger was concerned that if and when he dumped you, you'd get nasty and write some bad things about him. Amazing how that works.
    Sounds like poor old hank the nerd had heard the poon storirs and was pissed tiger didnt invite him to some freak sessions with the skanks.
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    You're just guessing here. Tiger has always wanted to improve and that's why he's made swing changes. He did make the swing change with Haney to protect the knee but that's the only documented change we are aware of.

    Tiger needs to go back to the swing that won him his first masters. This was before he shortened his backswing and tightened it up with Butch. I have no doubt that Tiger would have 20 majors right now if he had never changed his '97 Masters swing. I don't think he'd have as many tour wins but he'd have more majors. Trust me on this. I know this kind of stuff.
    Spot on. iger's decline began with Butch. In 97 Tiger was playing a different game to the rest of the field. He was so far past the rest with his drives and was mch straighter than he is now. Butch fukt him. Logic would say he would have got better if those teachers were any good, not worse
    The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.

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    Tiger's a near cripple from roiding up, but nobody wants to accept it. He should get his short game back and stop working on any swing.

    He's never going to have a great swing again, but he's good enough to win without one if he'd just find something that doesn't hurt and stick with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    Tiger's a near cripple from roiding up, but nobody wants to accept it. He should get his short game back and stop working on any swing.

    He's never going to have a great swing again, but he's good enough to win without one if he'd just find something that doesn't hurt and stick with it.
    There is no evidence to suggest that Tiger was roiding up other than pure conjecture. How can you prove a negative? Just because someone gets big from lifting weights doesn't mean they take roids. He didn't have any of the signs of roids either, like a huge neck, bulging veins or fatter face. I knew guys in high school that got on that stuff and they immediately gained weight and looked bulky. Their cheeks were swollen. You could easily tell.

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    Yeah, I'm sure the stuff your towel-snapping high school buddies were taking is the same as a billionaire athlete has access to.
    I keeps it real.

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    Starting quarterback on the sophomore team? Thats kind of like taking the prom queen on a date, not getting any, but bragging the you humped her.
    Bridgestone J38 10.5, Srixon 2,3,4 hybrids. Snake Eyes Viper Tour
    Eidolon 52,56 and 60 wedges.
    Bettinardi sb-5+ putter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt1135 View Post
    Starting quarterback on the sophomore team? Thats kind of like taking the prom queen on a date, not getting any, but bragging the you humped her.
    I did take the prom queen out on several dates and, trust me, it was nothing like playing football.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    There is no evidence to suggest that Tiger was roiding up other than pure conjecture. How can you prove a negative? Just because someone gets big from lifting weights doesn't mean they take roids. He didn't have any of the signs of roids either, like a huge neck, bulging veins or fatter face. I knew guys in high school that got on that stuff and they immediately gained weight and looked bulky. Their cheeks were swollen. You could easily tell.
    Yah, that's why they call them dough boys. There are many other options than steroids but a general category of performance enhancing drugs do exists and the list is long.

    I think it was the other way around. Tiger's knee was going so he started taking PED's. We have the proof his knee was failing. He played on a fractured knee and went under the knife after the US open. The better question is how did he play 72 holes on a broken knee and still walk at all. I would argue PED's. Yes, conjecture but it's not like tiger is going to admit to it, not even under oath. Plus we know he's a cheating, lying sack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I did take the prom queen out on several dates and, trust me, it was nothing like playing football.
    What private school did you attend FD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by poe4soul View Post
    What private school did you attend FD?
    I attended the most prestigious of private schools for elementary and junior high but went public in high school so I could utilize my superior athletic prowess.

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    This level of almost uniform hatred can be attributed to what? Guilt for failure? Duh.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf View Post
    This level of almost uniform hatred can be attributed to what? Guilt for failure? Duh.

    Larry
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    It's not my fault God made me this beautiful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I attended the most prestigious of private schools for elementary and junior high but went public in high school so I could utilize my superior athletic prowess.
    Oh my God I can't wait to hear this-you played QB on your SOPHOMORE team and you moved public to utilize your superior athletic prowess? What-did you play on the girls volleyball team, were you the best cheerleader in your junior/senior seasons-please elaborate!

  94. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    My only aspiration in playing golf is to beat my opponent and shoot as low a score is possible. That's the way the game was meant to be played. Low score is what matters. Anyone who would rather practice and talk about it all day long is a poser and clearly not someone who can break 85. You can tell when someone is talking about a subject where they have no experience. You can tell they've never played any matches or in any organized events. Wannabees.

    It's not dissimilar to Obama talking business.
    Practice what you preach, 'QB'...........................

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    My 2 bucks, and a bottle of sake

    I agree with you Larry that "Swing Like A Pro" is a good base... Many moons ago this book lead me to make some simple changes in my game which have lead to a solid base and a successful amateur career, and I am of the school of thought that there are only a few things that ABSOLUTELY must be done by the golfer without fail... the rest is seasoning, I also believe people make this way more complicated than it needs to be, which is why I'm also a HUGE fan of the Penick books... I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that players generally choose failure, they compromise their skill for enjoyment, or other obligations, theyre willing to spend whatever on lessons or clubs but almost every mid-high handicap player, and an awful lot of single digit players just choose to not be as good. It takes a lot of work, not necessarily all range beating and practice green time, but a lot of study, and honesty, and humility, and the unrelenting desire to understand the physics of the thing, and the psychology of the other thing... The Full swing is simple, or should be anyway, the shortgame is a few basic mechanics and touch/experience , putting is the same... A digi cam is invaluable, an experienced set of eyes whether a pro, or a good amateur is irreplaceable... but improvement comes from you understanding and trying, failing, trying again, simplifying, finding "IT" then realizing "IT" wasn't really "IT" at all, just a trigger that got you feeling what your supposed to that maybe leads to a beneficial change, or maybe not, then it starts over... and it's hard to do this when you have 30 different "Guru's" who are all trying to make a buck and build they're fame all preaching different ways to hit a ball with a stick while making you second guess the path your on....

    By the way Greg Normans book was very good for me too, I think it was called "Advanced Golf"...

    Anyway, I guess my point is, if there is any point here at all, that what I'm trying to convey, albeit in a Sake induced stupor, is that no coach, or book, or training aid will make you better, ultimately it's up to you to understand and make the changes, and do the work necessary, most people don't even make it past the point of figuring out how to begin to figure it out... If you can, it gets way easier...

    -J

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    I confess that while I enjoy having a good round as much as anybody else, competition itself is the least relevant aspect of golf to me at this stage of my life.

    I like the social aspect of the game, I like fresh air, and I like hitting or trying to hit the various shots.

    I fully admit that at one time, a good money and/or grudge game could get my blood flowing; but age has reduced those things to nonsense now, albeit only as they apply to my own playing.

    And yet, I don't enjoy golf any less. I have no doubt that this perspective impacts my attitude toward continuing instruction as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huskyhater View Post
    Oh my God I can't wait to hear this-you played QB on your SOPHOMORE team and you moved public to utilize your superior athletic prowess? What-did you play on the girls volleyball team, were you the best cheerleader in your junior/senior seasons-please elaborate!
    My junior and senior year's were overbooked with hot dates, studies and golf. I didn't have the time to devote to football so I'd only attend a few practices. I still started at free safety and went on to sectionals.

    If I haven't mentioned it already I was also very good at Trivial Pursuit.

    Hey, starting QB in any grade in HS is pretty impressive. That's when people started calling me "Fame".

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    I peaked after high school.

    Enjoying the company of a Vegas or Manhattan cocktail waitress usually trumps a chearleader by a good margin. But hey, that's me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    My junior and senior year's were overbooked with hot dates, studies and golf. I didn't have the time to devote to football so I'd only attend a few practices. I still started at free safety and went on to sectionals.

    If I haven't mentioned it already I was also very good at Trivial Pursuit.

    Hey, starting QB in any grade in HS is pretty impressive. That's when people started calling me "Fame".
    Still trying to figure out if this is bad schtick or just bad period...
    I keeps it real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    Still trying to figure out if this is bad schtick or just bad period...
    While you're trying to figure it out consider the fact that I'm probably the best ball striker on this forum. I'm providing everyone with a time line to give them a little insight into the world of a child prodigy.

    I'm not revealing any of my past successes in sports to impress you but rather to impress upon you the fact that I've "been there, done that". In general, I'm a humble person who doesn't like talking about himself.

    However, in a golf discussion forum such as this, I find it hard not to share my past achievements in the hope they might encourage someone else to excel in life as I have.

    I'm playing golf tomorrow. I'm hoping I shoot another 70 like I did two weeks ago. The course I'm playing is 6,700 yards from the blues; far too long for the average golfer. I shot 74 the first time I played there. It all comes down to determination, courage and amazing hand/eye coordination. Having excelled in other sports and acted as a leader for the team has helped as well. i guess that goes without saying.

    Anyway, I hope this has helped.

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