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  1. #1
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    Does the average American understand finance?

    I no think so
    Last edited by famousdavis; 08-08-2012 at 03:15 PM.
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    I read your post before it was gutted. The average American and most of us buy the big ticket items based on the monthlies. But its not just cars. Houses are the worst. The typical question buyers ask their Realtor when they get to the point of being interested enough in a property to consider making an offer is "What are the monthlies?" So when the Realtor puts the buyers with a mortgage broker and the monthly payment is ascertained, the cash needed to close is calculated, and the mortgage broker has some comfort level that the buyers will qualify for the loan, the offer is made, negotiated, signed and then closed. I never sold cars but I sold houses before I learned to appraise them and it never ceased to amaze me that an otherwise intelligent young couple with upwardly mobile potential would do six months' worth of research on which car would be the best purchase with the best reliability and the highest resale value after 10 years and then, after all that stuff was digested and argued and agreed upon, the vehicle was bought. Consumer Reports was usually the dominant source of info since this was pre-internet. Conversely, this same young couple who just ponied up $15,968 for their Honda or Toyota or BMW or whatever so long as it wasn't made in the USA, would be driving their brand new vehicle to put some break-in miles on it on a balmy spring early Sunday afternoon and see an Open House arrow in a nice neighborhood and go into the open house and three hours after the open house closed, they were in their apartment living room with the Realtor writing their purchase offer. No research. No due diligence. Pure impulse purchase based on monthly payments. Go figure.
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  3. #3
    Introductory Finance was right around mid-day.

    I would buy a nice sandwich and large coffee from Atomic Sub, take a seat up in the balcony, and then fire up a fatty while reading the old Record American sports page when I was done.

    Finance was even more boring than economics, if that's humanly possible.

    Still, Doctor Whateverhernamewas had a great rack--a true cougar milf before we knew what that was. Somehow we managed to negotiate a gentleman's C.

    You could always tell the guys who were in school to avoid the draft, even at dear old Harvard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I read your post before it was gutted.
    Why do you do this? I also read it and it must have taken at least 15 minutes to type. I went to respond and *poof*, it's gone.

    To answer your question, our education system doesn't teach basic finance enough. For some reason our kids must know their Roman numerals, but a remedial understanding of budgets and the basics of investing don't make the cut.
    I keeps it real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    Why do you do this? I also read it and it must have taken at least 15 minutes to type. I went to respond and *poof*, it's gone.

    To answer your question, our education system doesn't teach basic finance enough. For some reason our kids must know their Roman numerals, but a remedial understanding of budgets and the basics of investing don't make the cut.
    You need to hit the 'Quote' button then it will be preserved for posterity for all to see regardless of any editing of the original by the author.

    But you can't go teaching it in school. If the basics of finance were taught along with literacy and numeracy a lot of bankers, accountants and financial advisors would lose a fair chunk of business. That would surely be an infringement on their basic human right to rip off hapless, gullible, unsuspecting clients.
    I chose the road less traveled.

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    Why do you do this? I also read it and it must have taken at least 15 minutes to type. I went to respond and *poof*, it's gone.

    To answer your question, our education system doesn't teach basic finance enough. For some reason our kids must know their Roman numerals, but a remedial understanding of budgets and the basics of investing don't make the cut.
    That's a BM to edit a thread you started. WTF FD?

  7. #7
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    I wouldn't call it a BM to delete a thread if you think it's worthless. No, it didn't take 15 minutes to type. I type fairly quickly. I just thought it was a mundane post and couldn't think of anything to replace it.

    My point was that two friends of mine bought cars with the strategy of simply not going over a monthly payment threshold. I guess a better topic is how people will spend very little time deciding on what house to buy and then even less time securing a mortgage.

    With a car, there are so many online resources to find out dealer invoice as well as what the options cost the dealer. I think the key is not to do a trade in. Sell your used car first on your own. Even if you low ball it you'll get way more than the dealer will give you and he'll work the numbers to confuse you when it comes to the trade-in value, price of the car, downpayment and then financing. It's better to rent a car for a few weeks while you can shop around.

    If you think about how long it takes to earn the money to buy a car it stands to reason that you'd take your time to get the best deal.
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    Nope, the avg. person doesn't get it, and I'll take it 1 step farther than you, a financial instrument, any financial instrument whether it be a 1$ bill or a bond, or a loan, or a stock etc. really has 1 purpose... to move value/wealth from the less educated, to the more educated. Barter is probably the purest form of "finance", it keeps hard working honest people fed, healthy, and it passes on practical skills to generations as well as clearly define the most valuable assets and education. What we have is a current system with no basis on real value that is defined by the guys who invented the system and have total control of it, they can manipulate it, siphon money from the uneducated at their fancy... under the current finance system people are born into debt and shepherded into more debt at which point they become slaves that are fearful of losing what they have because if they did they wouldn't be able to sustain a life full of things they have no need for... Meanwhile some of the most valuable assets to our civilization are undermined... lets say we wake up tomorrow to a Mad Max world, who are the most valuable people? Lawyers? Hedge Fund managers? politicians? Bankers/Moneychangers? nope... mechanics, Doctors (old fashioned healers who can do more than just push meds, they are a dying breed), farmers, textile workers, guys with combat training and weapons, etc. regardless of how advanced a society is the basic values shouldn't change right? I mean the goal of life is to continue is it not? In my opinion, at it's core, the finance professional is an opportune parasite.... No offense to any finance guys here, unless they're top level guys, they're just slaves too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    Introductory Finance was right around mid-day.

    I would buy a nice sandwich and large coffee from Atomic Sub, take a seat up in the balcony, and then fire up a fatty while reading the old Record American sports page when I was done.

    Finance was even more boring than economics, if that's humanly possible.

    Still, Doctor Whateverhernamewas had a great rack--a true cougar milf before we knew what that was. Somehow we managed to negotiate a gentleman's C.

    You could always tell the guys who were in school to avoid the draft, even at dear old Harvard.
    I always knew from your writings that you were a coward, poor student, and a druggie.

    I'd kick your ass.

    spank
    It's not my fault God made me this beautiful.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hubijerk View Post
    Nope, the avg. person doesn't get it, and I'll take it 1 step farther than you, a financial instrument, any financial instrument whether it be a 1$ bill or a bond, or a loan, or a stock etc. really has 1 purpose... to move value/wealth from the less educated, to the more educated. Barter is probably the purest form of "finance", it keeps hard working honest people fed, healthy, and it passes on practical skills to generations as well as clearly define the most valuable assets and education. What we have is a current system with no basis on real value that is defined by the guys who invented the system and have total control of it, they can manipulate it, siphon money from the uneducated at their fancy... under the current finance system people are born into debt and shepherded into more debt at which point they become slaves that are fearful of losing what they have because if they did they wouldn't be able to sustain a life full of things they have no need for... Meanwhile some of the most valuable assets to our civilization are undermined... lets say we wake up tomorrow to a Mad Max world, who are the most valuable people? Lawyers? Hedge Fund managers? politicians? Bankers/Moneychangers? nope... mechanics, Doctors (old fashioned healers who can do more than just push meds, they are a dying breed), farmers, textile workers, guys with combat training and weapons, etc. regardless of how advanced a society is the basic values shouldn't change right? I mean the goal of life is to continue is it not? In my opinion, at it's core, the finance professional is an opportune parasite.... No offense to any finance guys here, unless they're top level guys, they're just slaves too...
    I think you are right Hubi. This is the only solution:

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...IMTJjzfo&gl=NZ
    I chose the road less traveled.

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  11. #11
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    I didn't get to see the original post, but I did get an interesting email from the dealership from which we bought our last car. It's a 2011 Honda Pilot with the DVD and AWD. Our family ride that keeps us from the indignity of driving a minivan.
    The guy said Honda had an unmet demand for low mileage used Pilots, and we qualified to get a new model for the same monthly payment. So I call the guy. Turns out that upon delivery, I'd have to pay all the same costs like sales tax and destination, all so I could have a car one year newer, with a loan ending one year later. When I talked to him, I said I'd do it if they paid sales tax, destination and gave my $500. Apparently Honda doesn't need gently used Pilots that badly.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hubijerk View Post
    Nope, the avg. person doesn't get it, and I'll take it 1 step farther than you, a financial instrument, any financial instrument whether it be a 1$ bill or a bond, or a loan, or a stock etc. really has 1 purpose... to move value/wealth from the less educated, to the more educated. Barter is probably the purest form of "finance", it keeps hard working honest people fed, healthy, and it passes on practical skills to generations as well as clearly define the most valuable assets and education. What we have is a current system with no basis on real value that is defined by the guys who invented the system and have total control of it, they can manipulate it, siphon money from the uneducated at their fancy... under the current finance system people are born into debt and shepherded into more debt at which point they become slaves that are fearful of losing what they have because if they did they wouldn't be able to sustain a life full of things they have no need for... Meanwhile some of the most valuable assets to our civilization are undermined... lets say we wake up tomorrow to a Mad Max world, who are the most valuable people? Lawyers? Hedge Fund managers? politicians? Bankers/Moneychangers? nope... mechanics, Doctors (old fashioned healers who can do more than just push meds, they are a dying breed), farmers, textile workers, guys with combat training and weapons, etc. regardless of how advanced a society is the basic values shouldn't change right? I mean the goal of life is to continue is it not? In my opinion, at it's core, the finance professional is an opportune parasite.... No offense to any finance guys here, unless they're top level guys, they're just slaves too...
    I like this little game of "Who can make someone on GR slash their wrists first" that you and Nifty have going. You should have made it more formal so that we could start betting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs View Post
    I didn't get to see the original post, but I did get an interesting email from the dealership from which we bought our last car. It's a 2011 Honda Pilot with the DVD and AWD. Our family ride that keeps us from the indignity of driving a minivan.
    The guy said Honda had an unmet demand for low mileage used Pilots, and we qualified to get a new model for the same monthly payment. So I call the guy. Turns out that upon delivery, I'd have to pay all the same costs like sales tax and destination, all so I could have a car one year newer, with a loan ending one year later. When I talked to him, I said I'd do it if they paid sales tax, destination and gave my $500. Apparently Honda doesn't need gently used Pilots that badly.
    The names manufacturers come up with for personal vehicles never ceases to amaze and entertain me. Especially the SUV's. Honda has its Pilot. Lincoln has both the Navigator and the Aviator. GM has its Hummer which meant, when I was in the military, "blowjob". Frankly, I'd much rather be driving a Stewardess.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by spanqdoggie View Post
    I always knew from your writings that you were a coward, poor student, and a druggie.

    I'd kick your ass.

    spank
    You'd be much more likely to offer me your ass, weirdo, but I'm not interested. Even if I went that way, I'd prefer somebody a lot more intelligent.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs View Post
    I didn't get to see the original post, but I did get an interesting email from the dealership from which we bought our last car. It's a 2011 Honda Pilot with the DVD and AWD. Our family ride that keeps us from the indignity of driving a minivan.
    The guy said Honda had an unmet demand for low mileage used Pilots, and we qualified to get a new model for the same monthly payment. So I call the guy. Turns out that upon delivery, I'd have to pay all the same costs like sales tax and destination, all so I could have a car one year newer, with a loan ending one year later. When I talked to him, I said I'd do it if they paid sales tax, destination and gave my $500. Apparently Honda doesn't need gently used Pilots that badly.
    I like the Honda Pilot and wish that I had purchased one instead of the Honda Accord EX V6 that I currently drive. It got worse gas mileage but would have been great for my home projects and the kids. I looked at an Acura MDX but honestly I preferred the Pilot. Same thing with the Lexus RX series. My father in law has a Lexus ES 300 and honestly I think the top of the line Toyota Camry looks better. It's basically the same thing.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I like the Honda Pilot and wish that I had purchased one instead of the Honda Accord EX V6 that I currently drive. It got worse gas mileage but would have been great for my home projects and the kids. I looked at an Acura MDX but honestly I preferred the Pilot. Same thing with the Lexus RX series. My father in law has a Lexus ES 300 and honestly I think the top of the line Toyota Camry looks better. It's basically the same thing.
    It came down to the Pilot vs. MDX. I have purchased 3 Acuras from the same dealership and felt that they should have tried a bit harder to keep my business. The MDX was much nicer in many ways that I don't really care about, given that this was going to be a family car. I really started questioning whether it was worth $7000 extra dollars for nicer interior appointments and a bigger engine when my wife is basically just going to be driving kids and groceries around town.
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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    I wouldn't call it a BM to delete a thread if you think it's worthless. No, it didn't take 15 minutes to type. I type fairly quickly. I just thought it was a mundane post and couldn't think of anything to replace it.

    My point was that two friends of mine bought cars with the strategy of simply not going over a monthly payment threshold. I guess a better topic is how people will spend very little time deciding on what house to buy and then even less time securing a mortgage.

    With a car, there are so many online resources to find out dealer invoice as well as what the options cost the dealer. I think the key is not to do a trade in. Sell your used car first on your own. Even if you low ball it you'll get way more than the dealer will give you and he'll work the numbers to confuse you when it comes to the trade-in value, price of the car, downpayment and then financing. It's better to rent a car for a few weeks while you can shop around.

    If you think about how long it takes to earn the money to buy a car it stands to reason that you'd take your time to get the best deal.
    Every car I've purchased over the last 12 years has been with cash. I take that back. We did buy one on credit and paid it off with the first payment. The dealership gave us a better deal to finance.

    It's interesting in larger cities where the real estate/home prices are high. Many people have more expendable income to spend on cars than other places because they don't have a mortgage payment. The car becomes that status symbol where it isn't as much of one in more rural parts of the US. It could also be that your income ratio is higher in larger cities so buying a $50K car isn't as big of a deal. But in a place like OK, where many entry level homes go for $130K, it becomes a big deal to own a BMW and still be renting an apartment. But when the entry level home in a larger city is $500K it's easy to justify staying in an apartment and owning a really nice car.

    My wife and I had a go over finances for the first few years living together. I absolutely hate owing people money and she didn't mind owing some money. We went round and round until I won the battle. Now life is pretty easy not owing others. Mortgage is my only exception. Especially with the tax breaks on mortgage interest rates, owning a home just make sense. If the government cuts the mortgage interest deduction it might pencil out differently.

    It's kind of crazy when you think of it. Just drive the clunker for a few years and make payments like it was a new car and pretty soon you can buy the car with cash. It's just not the american way. That said, those 0.9% interest car loans are attractive it you have an itch.

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    I just put everything on layaway. Let's see, if I put $40 down on that Mercedes I'll own that sh!t in about.....300 years!
    There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who donít.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Horseballs View Post
    The MDX was much nicer in many ways that I don't really care about, given that this was going to be a family car. I really started questioning whether it was worth $7000 extra dollars for nicer interior appointments and a bigger engine when my wife is basically just going to be driving kids and groceries around town.
    The family car...bummer.

    Families are great for the right people, and if they're happy, I'm happy for them. Honestly.

    I, however, would have been dead by forty. Some lives just aren't made to be shared with others in perpetuity.

    I have no kids or grandkids to enjoy in my senior years, I'll concede that; but I'm close to my neice and nephew (the real Nifty's kids) and I've NEVER owned a "family car."

    As for company, I still see my dance teacher fairly often. She's fifty, and that's a hot young chick to me.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Player View Post
    I think you are right Hubi. This is the only solution:

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...IMTJjzfo&gl=NZ
    Ha, not exactly what I had in mind, besides last time I checked being Jewish wasn't a pre requisite to a career in finance,... But really, why make things so complex unless your trying to work an angle? The guy who grows food can barely survive because he's overwhelmed by red tape created by guy's who's only real skill is pushing paper from one side of the desk to the other... The financiers and bankers, and gvt.'s for that mater have financed the amazing growth and building of our current developed and advanced world, but at what cost to the rest of the people? Not trying to make anyone slit their wrists, but if you don't understand the angles being played against you how do you hope to avoid them, or play them yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by famousdavis View Post
    Lexus ES 300 and Toyota Camry ... basically the same thing.

    No biggie, but I find this to be a odd statement. The Camry, which one of my relatives has, is much clunkier-looking than the sleek ES300Not that Lexus styling isn't a bit boring too, but it's kind of like saying comparing Winslow Homer to Vermeer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hubijerk View Post
    Ha, not exactly what I had in mind, besides last time I checked being Jewish wasn't a pre requisite to a career in finance,... But really, why make things so complex unless your trying to work an angle? The guy who grows food can barely survive because he's overwhelmed by red tape created by guy's who's only real skill is pushing paper from one side of the desk to the other... The financiers and bankers, and gvt.'s for that mater have financed the amazing growth and building of our current developed and advanced world, but at what cost to the rest of the people? Not trying to make anyone slit their wrists, but if you don't understand the angles being played against you how do you hope to avoid them, or play them yourself?
    There's always going to be cases of fraud and deceit, regardless of what context you're talking about. That's just humanity. We're primitive animals in many ways, and therefore look out for ourselves instead of society. Finance and money aren't inherently evil; they weren't constructed to transfer "wealth from the less educated to the more educated." Do you think you'd live in the house you do right now if you didn't have a banker to loan you the money? Is the banker just trying to rob you of your wealth by lending you the money? Even so, did you not have the ability to not be robbed by not taking out a loan?

    I assume you agree with the way our government was set-up over 200 years ago. You'll probably also agree that its current form is a huge bastardization of the original. Does that mean democracy is inherently bad? Not to me. Instead, it's just run amuck thanks to the greed and power of the men who run it.
    I keeps it real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 24putts View Post
    No biggie, but I find this to be a odd statement. The Camry, which one of my relatives has, is much clunkier-looking than the sleek ES300Not that Lexus styling isn't a bit boring too, but it's kind of like saying comparing Winslow Homer to Vermeer.
    Also, there's a lot more to a car than looks. Cars like Lexus are considered premium vehicles due, in part, to the quality of the ride. Road noise, ergonomics, interior quality, engine power...all better on the Lexus. Now whether that stuff is worth the price premium is up to the individual.

    I originally went to buy an Accord V6. However, once I had it priced with the upgrades I was seeking, I realized the Acura TL was only a few thousand more. I pulled the trigger on the TL as its ride, looks, and quality all trump the Accord in spades and the premium was worth it to me.
    I keeps it real.

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    It's funny how the same people who will spend zero time doing their homework on buying a car are the same idiots who keep everyone waiting in line at the grocery store while they go through all of their coupons at the checkout line. I would guess they are the same people who wait 20 minutes in line at the cheapest gas station in town so that they can save 80 cents. I bet they do bof.
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    You'll probably also agree that its current form is a huge bastardization of the original.

    So you agree that The New Deal was unconstitutional. Welcome to the Right side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    There's always going to be cases of fraud and deceit, regardless of what context you're talking about. That's just humanity. We're primitive animals in many ways, and therefore look out for ourselves instead of society. Finance and money aren't inherently evil; they weren't constructed to transfer "wealth from the less educated to the more educated." Do you think you'd live in the house you do right now if you didn't have a banker to loan you the money? Is the banker just trying to rob you of your wealth by lending you the money? Even so, did you not have the ability to not be robbed by not taking out a loan?

    I assume you agree with the way our government was set-up over 200 years ago. You'll probably also agree that its current form is a huge bastardization of the original. Does that mean democracy is inherently bad? Not to me. Instead, it's just run amuck thanks to the greed and power of the men who run it.
    I'm not talking just about fraud, nor am I saying loans etc. are evil... My point is everything would be cheaper without the middleman banker... if there was no banker to loan me money for my house I would have to work out a deal with a guy who builds houses, he would make deals and arrangements because he needs to get paid to survive too, if I had no healthcare I would have to work out a deal with the doctor who needs to treat patients to survive... instead, prices can be raised because people can get loans.. does it seem logical that most people need to take half a lifetime to pay off a house? Or that 20 minutes in the ER, some X-Rays, and IV, and some pain pills cost 15k? All I'm saying is that as a society we have lost the concept of value, how many jobs actually generate more value than the salaries they command? I'm not looking to demonize anyone, bankers have found a legal way to make money, as have lawyers, businessmen, docs, etc... I'm just saying that the way things are currently lock people into a predictable pattern of behavior, and if you can do that, you can manipulate them. And don't be naive... the current monetary system was founded for the precise purpose of moving wealth... Otherwise every cent would be backed with something of hard value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hubijerk View Post
    I'm not talking just about fraud, nor am I saying loans etc. are evil... My point is everything would be cheaper without the middleman banker... if there was no banker to loan me money for my house I would have to work out a deal with a guy who builds houses, he would make deals and arrangements because he needs to get paid to survive too, if I had no healthcare I would have to work out a deal with the doctor who needs to treat patients to survive... instead, prices can be raised because people can get loans.. does it seem logical that most people need to take half a lifetime to pay off a house? Or that 20 minutes in the ER, some X-Rays, and IV, and some pain pills cost 15k? All I'm saying is that as a society we have lost the concept of value, how many jobs actually generate more value than the salaries they command? I'm not looking to demonize anyone, bankers have found a legal way to make money, as have lawyers, businessmen, docs, etc... I'm just saying that the way things are currently lock people into a predictable pattern of behavior, and if you can do that, you can manipulate them. And don't be naive... the current monetary system was founded for the precise purpose of moving wealth... Otherwise every cent would be backed with something of hard value.
    You can work out a deal with the guy that owns the house. In fact, I'm sure he would much rather you write him a check than wait for your loan approval, which normally takes 30 days.

    You don't need to have health insurance. You can go to the doctor and pay him in cash up front. People do this with dentists all the time.

    However, it wouldn't be prudent for you to stash money under your mattress while you save for a house. It probably makes more sense to deposit it into an institution that is federally insured and has a safe.
    There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who donít.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hubijerk View Post
    I'm not talking just about fraud, nor am I saying loans etc. are evil... My point is everything would be cheaper without the middleman banker... if there was no banker to loan me money for my house I would have to work out a deal with a guy who builds houses, he would make deals and arrangements because he needs to get paid to survive too, if I had no healthcare I would have to work out a deal with the doctor who needs to treat patients to survive... instead, prices can be raised because people can get loans.. does it seem logical that most people need to take half a lifetime to pay off a house? Or that 20 minutes in the ER, some X-Rays, and IV, and some pain pills cost 15k? All I'm saying is that as a society we have lost the concept of value, how many jobs actually generate more value than the salaries they command? I'm not looking to demonize anyone, bankers have found a legal way to make money, as have lawyers, businessmen, docs, etc... I'm just saying that the way things are currently lock people into a predictable pattern of behavior, and if you can do that, you can manipulate them. And don't be naive... the current monetary system was founded for the precise purpose of moving wealth... Otherwise every cent would be backed with something of hard value.
    As FD pointed out, you have every right to barter your goods and services with someone. I doubt it's going to be a very easy lifestyle, but it's an option. As a matter of fact, I see people trying to trade goods and services for things all the time; they're usually broke rednecks on Craigslist with no money, but they're out there.

    Now if you want to argue against the fractional reserve banking system, that's a different topic. However, that's not your earlier point:

    Quote Originally Posted by hubijerk View Post
    a financial instrument, any financial instrument whether it be a 1$ bill or a bond, or a loan, or a stock etc. really has 1 purpose... to move value/wealth from the less educated, to the more educated.
    I keeps it real.

  29. #29
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    One time I was driving down the road and saw a bum carrying a full set of Titleist AP2 woods and a Cameron putter. I offered him a bottle of wild rose for the clubs and he took me up on it. I've made some good trades in my day but that one takes the cake.
    There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who donít.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by buddha33 View Post
    I assume you agree with the way our government was set-up over 200 years ago. You'll probably also agree that its current form is a huge bastardization of the original.
    Our government was intentionally set up to be inefficient. It was always a mess from day one, because it was conceived by people who didn't trust government. They feared 18th century despotic monarchs, and thus, they formed a government designed to pretty much stay in gridlock.

    Since the American experiment, there have been numerous democracies evolve, and they're almost all more succussful than ours as governments go.

    Humanity has evolved since 1776, but America has not. Its unstable people still fear government, and as a result, Western Europe and Scandinavia pretty much make us look like a sh!thole in comparison. We lead the world in virtually nothing worthwhile.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    Our government was intentionally set up to be inefficient. It was always a mess from day one, because it was conceived by people who didn't trust government. They feared 18th century despotic monarchs, and thus, they formed a government designed to pretty much stay in gridlock.

    Since the American experiment, there have been numerous democracies evolve, and they're almost all more succussful than ours as governments go.

    Humanity has evolved since 1776, but America has not. Its unstable people still fear government, and as a result, Western Europe and Scandinavia pretty much make us look like a sh!thole in comparison. We lead the world in virtually nothing worthwhile.
    So why are you still here? If America is such a terrible place, seems you would have moved to the UK, or Germany, or France or another worker's paradise!!!

    Larry

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Larryrsf View Post
    So why are you still here? If America is such a terrible place, seems you would have moved to the UK, or Germany, or France or another worker's paradise!!!

    Larry
    Explain to me everything that you know about European immigration laws, Larry.

    "Love it or leave it." The absolute clincher phrase to identify a complete moron. You can't hide it, can you?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    Explain to me everything that you know about European immigration laws, Larry.

    "Love it or leave it." The absolute clincher phrase to identify a complete moron. You can't hide it, can you?
    Hell, Larry explaining everything he actually knows about... ..anything... ...is unlikely to take long.

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