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Swing Weights: Educate the Uneducated!
Hello everyone.
I've done quite a bit of research on this topic, but I'm running out of recourses through the Internet, so hopefully some of you can help.
I'm trying to understand the determining factors in proper SW fitting characteristics. Everything on the Internet lists some "standard" weights (i.e. D0 for men) and I even found a few calculators that will determine the SW based on clubhead weight, shaft weight, grip weight and assembled clubs center of gravity position. Unfortunately, nothing I've found explains how a person should determine what will work best for them? Many of you are probably saying, "we can't tell you what you should be using", but that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for formulas, a list of determining factors or general knowledge of how SW affects each person and their swing speeds. Also, I understand the concept of SW and how it affects the center of gravity in relation to the clubhead speed.
Can any of you explain or point me to an article that explains SW in detail.
Here is an example for those of you that may be able to help:
(Everything is based on 5 iron specs)
Swing Speed = 85 mph
Person's height = 5' 7"
Person's weight = 160 lbs
Physical strength in relation to height and weight (scale 1-10) = 7
Club length = 37.5"
Club head weight = 254 gr
Shaft weight = 107 gr
Shaft flex = S
Grip weight = 47 gr
Based on that information, can one determine what the proper SW should be? If so, please explain your calculations.
Thanks everyone!
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Swingweight should be D2.3456789.
I think you answered your own question. It is all relative to the individual and what they are comfortable with. Just keep in mind the heavier the overall weight of the club is, the slower the swing speed will be.
there are probably only a couple of golfers that should refer to themselves as the master. I am sure it is not anyone on this board.
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[QUOTE=onetime]Swingweight should be D2.3456789.
QUOTE]
Of course, that's D2.3456789 +/- .000001 It's hard to be accurate beyond the 5th decimal point.
Remember the Murphy's Laws of Precision:
Step #1. Measure with a micrometer
Step #2. Mark with chalk
Step #3. Cut with an axe.
Seldom right, never in doubt......
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Originally Posted by onetime
Swingweight should be D2.3456789.
I think you answered your own question. It is all relative to the individual and what they are comfortable with. Just keep in mind the heavier the overall weight of the club is, the slower the swing speed will be.
Thanks for the response Onetime, but how did you calculate you answer? Did you just imput the weights into SW calculator or did you add any "outside factors" into the equation. I want to understand the answer, not just know what it is.
Thanks
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I've read dozens of discussions of SW and its influences on golf swings written by some very knowledgeable people in the golf industry--equipment gurus and teachers of strong repute. Virtually to a man, they all say that SW is more influential on your mental processing or "feel" of the golf club than on anything else relating to your swing. I've not seen (yet, at least) a single individual relate SW to SS (swing speed). The most I'd be willing to guess in that regard is that if you hated the feel of a club at a certain swingweight, you might swing it very badly--possibly reducing your clubhead speed. Even in such a scenario, however, you might swing a club very fast and incredibly poorly--the reason why swing gurus cringe when golfers put clubhead speed at the top of their priorities.
Do I "believe in" club swingweight as an important factor in the golf swing? As a matter of fact, I do. But it's WAY EASY to over-emphasize swingweight in your mind. Through owning and using a swingweight scale for 20-some years, I've learned some general principles relating to my own success with certain clubs in certain swingweight ranges, but those principles are just a very general guideline: key is to keep an open mind. Example, I built 3 drivers for myself last fall and had excellent success with each of them: all in the SW ranges of D4-D6. One of these drivers previously played to D2 and I didn't hit it as well; when I bumped it up to D5, I was more consistent in my contact and swing plane. But toward the end of November, I reshafted one of these drivers at a longer length and it came out to E1! Sort of frightened me, but I tried it--and found that it worked very, very well. Will I now aim for E1 in all my clubs? Not a ******* chance. I had an E1 sand wedge a while back that I hit miserably, so there are counter-examples, too. The shaft that I use, the length of the finished club, definitely the overall weight, the clubface design, the grip I like--all of these are more important factors (imo) than SW. When these other factors line up, I try the club to see how it goes. If everything else seems right but somehow the club doesn't work to satisfaction, THEN (and only then) might I try to manipulate swingweight.
I will say that many moons ago, sets of iron clubheads might vary so much from club to club (instead of an even progression of weights) that it was good practice to add weight to straighten out the progression. In effect, this probably led to similar swingweights, but the point was not to make a given club more "playable" but to keep it from feeling so radically different from a club above/below it as to be distracting to the golfer. These days, manufacturing is typically to tighter tolerances. Even if not, there are still plenty of other elements in the design and setup of a set of irons more important than swingweight....
[COLOR=SeaGreen]Trust the club.[/COLOR]
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Great post JC. My assumptions lead me to believe that SW was the least of my worries when it came to customizing clubs.
The reason I'm wanting to learn all this is because I really would like to start building my own clubs. I went to Golfsmith and they wanted $20 per club for assembly fees. Sorry, but I think that's ridiculus. That's about 50% of what each club costs for materials...
In the next few days I will assemble the above mentioned 5 Iron and let you all know how it feels.
Also, if any of you know of some good links that explain advanced club building, that would be appreciated.
Thanks
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ok, I was just about to ask about the same question about swing weight. You're about my size 150 lbs 5"7. I have a set of Ping ISI-N with steel shafts and they just feel heavy. My brother's TM Firesole set feels lighter and i get a nice thump at the bottom of my swing when i'm swinging in the air.
His, of course feel lighter. any suggestions?
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Originally Posted by RePeat
Great post JC. My assumptions lead me to believe that SW was the least of my worries when it came to customizing clubs.
The reason I'm wanting to learn all this is because I really would like to start building my own clubs. I went to Golfsmith and they wanted $20 per club for assembly fees. Sorry, but I think that's ridiculus. That's about 50% of what each club costs for materials...
In the next few days I will assemble the above mentioned 5 Iron and let you all know how it feels.
Also, if any of you know of some good links that explain advanced club building, that would be appreciated.
Thanks
A few points about swingweight:
The ideal swingweight is different for each person. It's all about individual prefernce, so demo some clubs and find what feels comfortable, then find out what their stated swingweight is.
The average person can hardly even feel a difference of 1 swingweight point, so don't spaz over it.
Swingweighting is just an inaccurate way of measuring the balance and feel of a club.
Be careful in building your clubs. The weight variences in clubheads will throw off swingweight if you don't allow for them.
Don't spend that kind of $$$ on those components and then butcher them by assembling them yourself with no guidance. You seem like a very analytical person, doing homework, studying-- which is good. But no amount of internrnet research will give all the answers and experience to put a good set of clubs togeather. Either find someone who has experience to guide you through it, or save your $$$. Snakeeyes are too expensive to teach yourself on. Answer this:
Do you know how much epoxy to apply to the head/shaft so that you don't get a big build-up of hardened epoxy inside the shaft, altering flex, weight, balance, and creating a stress point to break a graphite shaft? Do you know how much to add that will give a good, strong bond and not have a head fly off and kill your playing partner? It's kind of a fine line...
Do you know how to add weight to the head to allow for weight tolerances? How to smoothe ferrules to the correct diameter so that they match the hozel? How to cut a graphite shaft without creating splinters that will damage it? How to correctly measure a club so that the length increments are correct (it's harder than it sounds)? How to prevent ferrule creep?
My point is that you are buying the most expensive components out there for what amounts to a test to see if you can do it without screwing up a set. In your previous post, $$$ was your driving factor and, to be honest, you'll pay just as much or more for a set that will not live up to what you think they will be. But, you are dead set on building them, so I wish you luck, bro.
Please, just call me Schemp...
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Originally Posted by bdcrowe
Do you know how much epoxy to apply to the head/shaft so that you don't get a big build-up of hardened epoxy inside the shaft, altering flex, weight, balance, and creating a stress point to break a graphite shaft? Do you know how much to add that will give a good, strong bond and not have a head fly off and kill your playing partner? It's kind of a fine line...
Do you know how to add weight to the head to allow for weight tolerances? How to smoothe ferrules to the correct diameter so that they match the hozel? How to cut a graphite shaft without creating splinters that will damage it? How to correctly measure a club so that the length increments are correct (it's harder than it sounds)? How to prevent ferrule creep?
My point is that you are buying the most expensive components out there for what amounts to a test to see if you can do it without screwing up a set. In your previous post, $$$ was your driving factor and, to be honest, you'll pay just as much or more for a set that will not live up to what you think they will be. But, you are dead set on building them, so I wish you luck, bro.
BD ~ I know it's not something everone can do and I know that it takes experience to perfect this trade. However, I'm a very capable craftsman and for $30-40 in materials I rather learn myself.
To answer some of your questions:
Yes, I have used "slow setting" epoxies many times in all sorts of applications, primarly using epoxy chemicals creating molds and sculptures. I know how fickle this chemical can be and the patience it takes to use. However, it's basically common knowledge (at least for me) when it comes to applications uses. But this aspect I will need to practice on my current clubs.
Yes, I know how to smooth ferrules using a linen belt sander.
Yes, I know how to tapper the inside of the clubhead to prevent "shaft rubbing/cutting"
Yes, I know how to measure a golf club; position the club so that the sole lies parrellel to the ground, then measure from the heal of the hozel to the tip of the grip minus .125". After extensive testing with my current clubs, I have determined that my optimum 5-iron length is 37.25. Once I "dry" assemble the shaft and clubhead I will make the proper measurements and then cut.
Yes, I know how to cut graphite shafts, but I will only be building my irons which will be steel.
Yes, I know how to prevent ferrule creep by applying a small amount of epoxy up inside the ferrule before installation of the head. You also need to groove the inside of the ferrule to create a rough surface which will allow the epoxy to establish a better bond.
I appreciate your concerns and I'm taking everything you say to heart. I guess I'm just the type of guy that would rather do things myself than have someone else do it for me. ;)
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Originally Posted by RePeat
BD ~ I know it's not something everone can do and I know that it takes experience to perfect this trade. However, I'm a very capable craftsman and for $30-40 in materials I rather learn myself.
To answer some of your questions:
Yes, I have used "slow setting" epoxies many times in all sorts of applications, primarly using epoxy chemicals creating molds and sculptures. I know how fickle this chemical can be and the patience it takes to use. However, it's basically common knowledge (at least for me) when it comes to applications uses. But this aspect I will need to practice on my current clubs.
Yes, I know how to smooth ferrules using a linen belt sander.
Yes, I know how to tapper the inside of the clubhead to prevent "shaft rubbing/cutting"
Yes, I know how to measure a golf club; position the club so that the sole lies parrellel to the ground, then measure from the heal of the hozel to the tip of the grip minus .125". After extensive testing with my current clubs, I have determined that my optimum 5-iron length is 37.25. Once I "dry" assemble the shaft and clubhead I will make the proper measurements and then cut.
Yes, I know how to cut graphite shafts, but I will only be building my irons which will be steel.
Yes, I know how to prevent ferrule creep by applying a small amount of epoxy up inside the ferrule before installation of the head. You also need to groove the inside of the ferrule to create a rough surface which will allow the epoxy to establish a better bond.
I appreciate your concerns and I'm taking everything you say to heart. I guess I'm just the type of guy that would rather do things myself than have someone else do it for me. ;)
It certainly looks like you've done your research! Excellent.
Now........
For swingweight.......
Ready???
It doesn't matter.
Pretty anticlimactic isn't it?
The reason is, swingweight is a number generated by static factors. Once you have the fitting done, there is nothing to change it. For instance, you know the OAL of your 5 iron will be 37.25" and, based on your above description of your self, that sounds like a really good number. Now, you've chosen your shaft and your grip and you've done your swingweight calculation and it comes out D1 and then you build the club and it comes out D1.5, so everythings cool right? Science at its finest. So what does it mean? Pretty much nothing. It's a number that many people take far too seriously.
The factors that affect swingweight are:
Head weight
Shaft weight
Shaft balance point
Grip weight
Club length
The swingweight is measured using a standard alphanumeric scale that has a fixed fulcrum point of 14 inches from the grip end. It's a loryithmic (not logorythmic) scale.
Now, with that being said, swingweight definitely has its place. However, it needs to be used comparitavely, not absolutely. Swingweight is a MUCH more useful number when tweaking a SET of clubs, not a SINGLE club. The key for someone in your position is to get the club fitting down to where you have, say, your 5 or 7 iron dialed in perfectly. It fits you and you hit a nice shot with it well more often then not. THAT'S when you measure the swing weight (and everything else) and use the number(s) to MATCH it throughout the set (possibly excluding wedges and woods).
What it comes down to is what works for you. There is no "right" swingweight at all. If you're curious, sure, you can calculate a number and see how close to it the club measures when it's done. If anything, you'll know whether or not something might be wrong if the number seems strange. But, all things considered, an absolute swingweight number has no relevance. A comparative swingweight does.
Hope that made sense.
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Originally Posted by Jeff_h
It certainly looks like you've done your research! Excellent.
Now........
For swingweight.......
Ready???
It doesn't matter.
Pretty anticlimactic isn't it?
The reason is, swingweight is a number generated by static factors. Once you have the fitting done, there is nothing to change it. For instance, you know the OAL of your 5 iron will be 37.25" and, based on your above description of your self, that sounds like a really good number. Now, you've chosen your shaft and your grip and you've done your swingweight calculation and it comes out D1 and then you build the club and it comes out D1.5, so everythings cool right? Science at its finest. So what does it mean? Pretty much nothing. It's a number that many people take far too seriously.
The factors that affect swingweight are:
Head weight
Shaft weight
Shaft balance point
Grip weight
Club length
The swingweight is measured using a standard alphanumeric scale that has a fixed fulcrum point of 14 inches from the grip end. It's a loryithmic (not logorythmic) scale.
Now, with that being said, swingweight definitely has its place. However, it needs to be used comparitavely, not absolutely. Swingweight is a MUCH more useful number when tweaking a SET of clubs, not a SINGLE club. The key for someone in your position is to get the club fitting down to where you have, say, your 5 or 7 iron dialed in perfectly. It fits you and you hit a nice shot with it well more often then not. THAT'S when you measure the swing weight (and everything else) and use the number(s) to MATCH it throughout the set (possibly excluding wedges and woods).
What it comes down to is what works for you. There is no "right" swingweight at all. If you're curious, sure, you can calculate a number and see how close to it the club measures when it's done. If anything, you'll know whether or not something might be wrong if the number seems strange. But, all things considered, an absolute swingweight number has no relevance. A comparative swingweight does.
Hope that made sense.
Beautiful. Simply beautiful. That made perfect sense, and it's basically what I was finding out through my research, but I had to present it to this forum for confirmation. I never wanted anyone to tell me what I "should" be using....I just wanted an explanation as to the nature of it's calculations. And you hit the nail on the head. Congratulations, your prize is in the mail ;)
Thanks everyone!
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