Clones v Brands

**jasonholtom@hotmail.com** · 05-13-2005

I have been looking today to improve my game with a new set of clubs. After checking around I ended up looking at the clone type sites because of the cost of the sort of clubs I would like (Taylor Rac OS2, Callaway Fusion, Ping 2 etc)

The most credible seem to be the US homebuilt (at least they claim so), such as Pinemeadow who say that they are not cloning, just sort of copying with the same materials plus their own design and saving on the cost of the pros we love to watch, the advertising and the shop mark up (maybe they should be even cheaper than $300 for $1200 set of irons.

I was expecting Far East rip off copies, but not US handbuilt? clubs.

So what is the reality, are the best of the clones (like pinemeadow?) really as good or almost as good as the real thing.

I am not proud about name brands if I can save monies and clearly the brands spend at least half their costs on image.

Can anybody attest to the quality/performance of these 'clones' and recommend any US homegrown manufacturers.

**buddha33** · 05-13-2005

Jason,

What's your email address? I want to send you a PM.

**jasonholtom@hotmail.com** · 05-13-2005

Originally Posted by buddha33

Jason,

What's your email address? I want to send you a PM.

I think that is obvious, I can't find a way of changing my member name to remove my email address offfline

**Montagle** · 05-13-2005

Jason,

You've got she- male.

**AJW** · 05-13-2005

I Havent hit the Pinemedows so I cant say they're no good but Im put off them by the fact that they blatantly copy the designs of other manufactures, if their willing to bend the law on designee patent are they going to be all that concerned about build quality and customer satisfaction? If your looking for a set of irons from an American company for under $300 look at Tommy Armour 845 silver scott eBay is full of deals on these irons Tommy Armour was once a leading company with tour players winning majors with their 845s but over the years they fell out of favour and now compete with the clone and component manufactures. 845 oversized just read the reviews on this site.

**wwjdwithca** · 05-13-2005

My profession is Engineering. I design, develop and manufacture lighting fixtures. In fact, I'm the Head of my department. We design between 6-12 die-castings a year; zinc, aluminum, and plastic. All of our tools are manufactured in Taiwan.

I tell you this because:

China and Taiwan have a very difficult time making complex dies. They can make them, but they take short-cuts to make them easier, and the parts are not as high quality. Sometimes they store their dies outside, sometimes they don't maintain them at all. I just had an experience where we were asking for a 1/2 degree draft on a zinc part , a common practice in the US. They finally came back and said their tools are not good enough! Now you have understand the Taiwanese, for them to say they can't do something is very difficult.

The costs of their dies are 1/3 that of here in the US. Plus they don't require trim dies cause all of the triming is done by hand. They work very hard and can do some things very well.

But golf clubs? Rocket science, no......ummmm, actually club design and manufacture is very sophisticated.

Summary, the club may look close to a top end club manufacturer, but there is NO WAY their clubs are built as well. You might as well just go to Walmart cause that's the quality you'll get.

**Naz954** · 05-13-2005

There is nothing wrong with "Clone Clubs". Bottom line is you don't pay for the R&D (Reserch & Development) that you would with TM, Ping, Cleveland, etc, inturn cutting the cost of the clubs. Personally, I play Cobra woods and TM irons stated right their on the clubs "made in Japan" and "China". A buddy of mine plays clones and his R7 knock off; the ti 700 is an awesome driver. Many times I put my cobra away just to play his driver; it has a real good feel to it and the distance surpasses my driver. Choose what you will this is just my .02

**SDB1** · 05-13-2005

Who cares what people say the quality is like, if you can't try them out before you buy them what's the point? They may be the best built club on the planet but if they don't work for you then you're just throwing your money away!

**joyful** · 05-15-2005

Ok, now I am tending towards the brands so I went down to the shop and tried some brand clubs of the mat.

Not an easy process when you are buying your first new clubs after playing with old hand me downs for 30 years.

Decided graphite shafts probably best as I am senior and not getting any stronger.

I tried Macgregor M455 (recommended by the man in the shop), Callaway X18, Rac 02, Srixon 302i and 403 irons.

They all felt better than the 12 year old Dunlops I use now, but very difficult to make a final selection.

Same with the drivers, tried new Mactec NVG (againd suggested by the shop), Srixon 403AD and Taylor R5. All felt better than my current clubs.

And still I am thinking about the comment somewhere in this forum that you can order a better graphite (or steel) shafts with a clone (and grips) than you get on the standard off the shelf brands.

All very taxing and it's supposed to be a game, not life and death.

**wwjdwithca** · 05-15-2005

Originally Posted by joyful

Ok, now I am tending towards the brands so I went down to the shop and tried some brand clubs of the mat.

Not an easy process when you are buying your first new clubs after playing with old hand me downs for 30 years.

Decided graphite shafts probably best as I am senior and not getting any stronger.

I tried Macgregor M455 (recommended by the man in the shop), Callaway X18, Rac 02, Srixon 302i and 403 irons.

They all felt better than the 12 year old Dunlops I use now, but very difficult to make a final selection.

Same with the drivers, tried new Mactec NVG (againd suggested by the shop), Srixon 403AD and Taylor R5. All felt better than my current clubs.

And still I am thinking about the comment somewhere in this forum that you can order a better graphite (or steel) shafts with a clone (and grips) than you get on the standard off the shelf brands.

All very taxing and it's supposed to be a game, not life and death.

I am not fan of clones because you don't need to do that in order to pay less. If your concerned about cost than find clubs that are good buys. For example: 2004 Nike Combos can be had for $300. Slightly used SMT 455 Big Bore drivers can be had for $150 or less, and are as good as any Cobra, Ping etc, if not better.

Shafts and setup are important factors, it just takes more patience.

Lastly, clones don't hold their value well at all. Probably have to give them away if you want to get rid of them.

**Tommysels41** · 05-15-2005

You have to go with Brand names. As Callaway says... A better game by design.

**SailRace** · 05-18-2005

For what its worth, and hopefully i won't get blasted too much, i use clone clubs that i purchased from Pinemeadow.

Here's the deal. First off, i'm pretty new to the game (been playing about a year now). So that may affect my judgement, but when i was looking, I had my teacher fit me with some Henry Griffiths, i've had a Ping cart, i've tried Taylormades on a demo day. All of them had pluses and minuses, but I decided that the Ping's ability to help me correct my errors made them the club i needed to start out with. However, with a new family on the way and other reasons, i was not able to shell out $1000 for golf clubs. And i found pinemeadow on the net.

Well, i took the plunge, as i could get a full set for $200, customized to my length and lie, etc. and figured what the heck. Well I can say this, i can hit the Oxygen Type S (Ping G2 clones) every bit as well as the Ping's, and htey are every bit as forgiving. I've done further research and spoken to guys at my local shops who do club fittings, repairs, etc. and even they say that all of these clubs are basically made in the exact same factories. So many f the name-brands are being made in china or taiwan or japan, and in the assembly line next to them, are the clone clubs with the same materials, etc.

Now i may lose out on the re-sale value, but consdering how little i spent anyway, i think i'm still ahead. So for now, until i get a lot better, and someone can convince me that i NEED a brand name club, i will continue to shop at pinemeadow or gigagolf for my clubs. I haven't found any reason not to. And for those that wonder about trying them first, both have a 30 day money back guarantee, and customer service that far outdoes any brick and mortar store i've ever been to. They survive on their customer service, and they go out of their way to help you make hte right decisions and fix anything you'r unhappy with.

If you don't need your clubs to say Callaway or Taylormade, or Ping on them, i say give the clones a shot.

**jordoo** · 05-18-2005

I really don't know because all the clubs they clone aren't the type of clubs I'd play. Plus I beleive all clones are cast. And I am not a fan of cast clubs or offset or any of that game improvement stuff. Bottom line is if u can swing well u will learn to hit anything u get well, however I have found that better quality irons make a huge diff when it comes to ball flight and dist consistancy.

**jc@bg** · 05-18-2005

I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned this option already, but another option is *component* clubs. Components, unlike clones, are original designs built by companies who sell primarily or exclusively to custom club makers. These days, some "component" companies also sell their own designs completely assembled, which technically makes them OEM, or original equipment manufacturers. Component clubs have (or may have) a similar amount of R&D as better-known "brand" names but are less expensive due to (a) pricing strategies and (b) advertising/overhead. Most component golf equipment is U.S.-made, and there's terrific stuff to be had at very significant cost savings over "brand" equipment. Also, because component clubs are by definition custom-assembled, both assembly quality and fit to the individual are likely to be excellent. If you're interested, research companies such as Bang, SMT, Wishon, and LPG. I believe that the component equipment in my bag today is far superior to the "brand" equipment I carried 2 years ago, at a fraction of the cost per club. The recent trend of "brand" companies offering optional shaft upgrades with their high-dollar equipment is a direct response to component companies' offering custom shafts with every clubhead. If you buy a $350-450 "brand name" driver with the stock shaft, you are purchasing X dollars worth of clubhead, X dollars worth of advertising, and maybe a $6 shaft. Or you purchase a top-line component driver clubhead for $100-150, teamed with a top-line $75 shaft. What I've seen in such instances is that the best component clubheads are equal to if not better than the best "brand" clubheads, and a $6 shaft is better for staking your tomato plants than for playing golf. You can spend $600 for a "brand" driver with a "custom" aftermarket shaft, but I wouldn't. If your swing is exactly like Hank Kuehne's, by all means, buy the exact driver setup that Hank has (if you can figure out what it really is)....

**SailRace** · 05-18-2005

From everything i've read lately, the difference between cast and forged clubs is getting smaller and smaller. I read something somewhere where they had a couple of pros try hitting identical irons, except one set was forged the other was cast, and they were not able to tell the difference, often claiming that the cast irons actually had more feel. Now take that for what it's worht, if you prefer forged, so be it, but some of the clone companies are beginning to bring out some blade style clubs (they make a clone of the Ping i3 irons) which i know aren't true blades, but may not be a bad options for a lower handicap golfer.

I just think if you like the brand names that the clones copy, than you really should give the clones a shot.

**jordoo** · 05-18-2005

Originally Posted by jc@bg

I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned this option already, but another option is *component* clubs. Components, unlike clones, are original designs built by companies who sell primarily or exclusively to custom club makers. These days, some "component" companies also sell their own designs completely assembled, which technically makes them OEM, or original equipment manufacturers. Component clubs have (or may have) a similar amount of R&D as better-known "brand" names but are less expensive due to (a) pricing strategies and (b) advertising/overhead. Most component golf equipment is U.S.-made, and there's terrific stuff to be had at very significant cost savings over "brand" equipment. Also, because component clubs are by definition custom-assembled, both assembly quality and fit to the individual are likely to be excellent. If you're interested, research companies such as Bang, SMT, Wishon, and LPG. I believe that the component equipment in my bag today is far superior to the "brand" equipment I carried 2 years ago, at a fraction of the cost per club. The recent trend of "brand" companies offering optional shaft upgrades with their high-dollar equipment is a direct response to component companies' offering custom shafts with every clubhead. If you buy a $350-450 "brand name" driver with the stock shaft, you are purchasing X dollars worth of clubhead, X dollars worth of advertising, and maybe a $6 shaft. Or you purchase a top-line component driver clubhead for $100-150, teamed with a top-line $75 shaft. What I've seen in such instances is that the best component clubheads are equal to if not better than the best "brand" clubheads, and a $6 shaft is better for staking your tomato plants than for playing golf. You can spend $600 for a "brand" driver with a "custom" aftermarket shaft, but I wouldn't. If your swing is exactly like Hank Kuehne's, by all means, buy the exact driver setup that Hank has (if you can figure out what it really is)....

Infinity and Peerles both make great iron heads if u wanted to go this route. Check out my review on the peerless tour's on this sight. I have also hit some infinity blades which are sweet my 52 is an infinity and I love it. Both these comp. also make forged cavity backs that set up and look like blades they are very nice.

**dorkman53** · 05-18-2005

For components, Snake Eyes and Maltby (from Golfworks) offer lots of options.

**dzguitar** · 05-19-2005

I started with some ping eye copies (the early models) from a company called "Par Ace". I had the loft and lie set for my swing as well as the shaft and grip options and they were a swell set of beginner/intermediate player irons. Golfsmith, Maltby and another called Diamond Tour Golf all offer some fine options and in fact their forged muscle back blade offerings look as nice as anything offered by the big companies. I think the old addage that you get what you pay for applies to this situation more and more. I play 2-3 times a week, every week and I can't imagine not playing with my Titleist Tour Model irons.

**golf-addict** · 05-19-2005

Snake eyes/Golfsmith have some great drivers and woods over the years, I am still using the full line of Snake Eyes QUick Strike, the Aermet 300cc driver with Phoenixx Thermo Pro shaft, though non-coforming, get me under 90 in the first year of learning ; The gentle giant irons from Giant Golf (simiilar to Cobra SS irons) helped me thru the first 3 years; The Adams st 3 and 5 wood clones from Diamondtourgolf worked exactly like Adams ST with bimatrix cloned shaft, gave me the same control, trajectory and distance. Putters and LW from K-mart and Wal-mart served me over the years. even my first set' 5 wood with Aldila vx shaft from Knight's golf is still easiest to hit, for my beginner friend.

Things get more expensive, shoot more consistently, but not necessarily drop putts and chips