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  1. #1
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    Is there much difference in potential performance between driver heads / brands?

    I think it's strange that people declare one brand of driver crap, and then proceed to exalt the virtues of another brand, when the problem IMO is rarely (if ever) the driver head itself, but rather the particular shaft installed in the head.

    I have to believe that ANY of the newer driver heads out there (TM R5 / R7; BB 454; Ping G2; Nike Ignite 460; Cleveland Launcher 460; Mizuno MP 001; etc.) could provide MORE than enough performance to satisfy 99% of the golfers out there if the head was mated to the appropriate shaft.

    In other words, I tend to think that guys who say things like "yeah, the Launcher 460 sucks but the R7 just rocks" are fools. It would be far more accurate to say that you like the shaft in the R7 better than the shaft in the Launcher 460, because ALL of the heads are hot nowdays -- more than sufficient for "Joe Golfer."

    Do you honestly think that most golfers can tell the difference between driver heads? I don't. I tend to believe that the mountains of money the manufacturers spend on advertising make people WANT to believe that one brand's head is hotter than another, but in reality the performance differences are negligible. They're ALL more than sufficient for 99% of the players out there.

    Of course, I could be wrong. Thoughts?

    -------

    A couple of caveats here - I DO agree with those who say there is a difference in FEEL between the "Comp" heads and the straight "Ti" heads. Also, I know that there are some truly awful heads in production out there by some smaller manufacturers (e.g. those sold at Kmart and other low end retailers, etc). I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the CURRENT offerings from reputable manufacturers at the forefront of the industry (Adams, Cleveland, Nike, Hogan, Callaway, Ping, TM, Titleist, Mizuno, etc., etc.) I'd throw quality component manufacturers in there as well (KZG, etc.).
    Last edited by BigBaller; 07-11-2005 at 03:59 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBaller
    In other words, I tend to think that guys who say things like "yeah, the Launcher 460 sucks but the R7 just rocks" are fools. It would be far more accurate to say that you like the shaft in the R7 better than the shaft in the Launcher 460, because ALL of the heads are hot nowdays -- more than sufficient for "Joe Golfer."
    That is a wonderful philosophy if only golf did not involve mental aspects. I personally need a clubhead that I enjoy looking at, and provokes confidence, or I may as well use my 9 iron. I personally cannot stand the idea behind the R7 because the thought of dealing with adjustable screws would kill my game. I want a Black Driver head, it makes a difference to me. I do not want a Blue shaft, sound stupid, golf is mental game, A green one works for me. I need metal or grey shafts on my woods, and irons. I went metal. I wanted my Driver to stand out, green did the trick and gave me the characterisistics I wanted.

    I could go on and on, but if you do not view golf as a mental game, where change cosmetic things make a difference, you would only view me a bigger fool.\

    Now if you take the weighted screws out of the TM R5 or R7, I would like the club alot better. Paint a Half Moon on the Launcher and I would be sold. So if you go to the range and hit one 50 yards longer than the other, you can say it is the shaft, but if you put the same shaft on a TM, I will still hit the G2 further. Right now, I probably hit the G2 further than a Launcher, If you paint a Half Moon on the Launcher and put the same shaft on it, I would probably hit them the same.

    There is a huge difference in club heads for most. Again, if you do not view it as a mental game this may not make sense and you may not understand that cosmetic changes make a huge difference, then you may be the fool.

    This doesn't even mention that changing the clubhead will change how a swing feels, I guess if we all have the same exact swing, they would all feel the same.
    Last edited by PA Jayhawk; 07-11-2005 at 03:37 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk
    I personally need a clubhead that I enjoy looking at, and provokes confidence, or I may as well use my 9 iron... I want a Black Driver head, it makes a difference to me... I do not want a Blue shaft - A green one works for me... I could go on and on, but if you do not view golf as a mental game, where change cosmetic things make a difference, you would only view me a bigger fool... (If you) do not understand that cosmetic changes make a huge difference, then you may be the fool...
    I agree with most of what you've said -- naturally a major part of your preference for a particular driver is going to be aesthetic. I don't see anything in my post that argues to the contrary.

    To clarify, I'm simply saying that those who disparage the performance of a particular brand of driver without considering the components involved are being overly simplistic. Further, I'm saying that these days the performance of Driver heads are so close that the SHAFT is the cause of most performance variances. I'm strictly talking about what the club is capable of in the hands of someone who likes it.

    I acknowledge that is is possible to have a particular affinity for a certain color/material/design of driver head/shaft, etc., and I further ackowledge that said affinity can preclude you from effectively using clubs that don't fit your mental picture of what a club should be - but that inability is mental, right? It's not necessarily due to the potential (or lack thereof) of the club.

    I'm just saying that PERFORMANCE-WISE, the driver heads all roughly have the same potential provided they are properly shafted. Whether you can effectively tap into that potential is another (separate) issue.

  4. #4
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    There are such things as robots that test these things, if this was some big scam, don't you think these tests would reveal it?

  5. #5
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    ...and I do agree, getting the correct shaft is a large part. However I also think that certain drivers are designed differently or better. I would provide the obvious example. Why was the ERC banned by the USGA, I tend to believe it had nothing to do with the trampoline effect of the shaft, or their hatred towards Callaway. Granted, you did provide perfect advice, people that say one driver is better than another simply based on the fact that they hit it better, and do not consider any other aspect other than their own personal distance should be shot. This is why I usually always state that it is based on my experience, and more so my own experience on viewing how my playing partners or other people on the range hit the ball. Then again, I have seen certain drivers on the market that no one can hit worth a darn, and are usually sold in golf shows or ebay for $10, then there are others, like the Launcher (which I do not own), where I have never seen one person to date hit the thing poorly. Now I would have to say that either all really good golfers have the same taste in clubs or have the exact swing characteristic that suits the cleveland club makeup, or maybe there is some merit in the fact that certain clubs are just designed a little better.

    It may be clubhead weight, or design weighting, or face characteristics. But I tend to believe they are not all the same. I have personally seen and hit drivers that are similar in size to my own that would make PGA Tour Pro's shiver in fear.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethpage caddy
    There are such things as robots that test these things, if this was some big scam, don't you think these tests would reveal it?
    Rule #1 of marketing = you can make a statistical study say just about anything that you want... e.g. "4 out of 5 dentists surveyed recommend Trident to their patients who chew gum"... do you swallow that one without question too?

    I'm not saying that all of the tests are bunk, but do you really believe that the performance differences are that great? Great enough to matter to 99% of players?

    Again, I said that the performance differences are NEGLIGIBLE - i.e., not enough to really matter. I didn't say there weren't any.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethpage caddy
    There are such things as robots that test these things, if this was some big scam, don't you think these tests would reveal it?
    I thought this exact thing the entire time I was typing, however, I didn't have a link to provide in support. I also tend to believe that the head to head testing should allow the clubmaker to set just the ball position, which I am not certain that they do, but they may. Simply because the Sweet spot is different for each club. If the clubmaker doesn't know where it is, then how would they expect the customer to know.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBaller
    I'm not saying that all of the tests are bunk, but do you really believe that the performance differences are that great? Great enough to matter to 99% of players?
    I think performance differences would be more apparent for 99% of the people, because 99% of the people can't hit the sweet spot every shot. If 1 club a sweet spot the size of a silver dollar, and another has one the size of a dime, the silver dollar is a much better club, assuming you get the same distance if you hit them both on the sweet spot.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk
    I thought this exact thing the entire time I was typing, however, I didn't have a link to provide in support. I also tend to believe that the head to head testing should allow the clubmaker to set just the ball position, which I am not certain that they do, but they may. Simply because the Sweet spot is different for each club. If the clubmaker doesn't know where it is, then how would they expect the customer to know.
    Here is an interesting link to USGA testing info for balls and clubs:

    http://www.usga.org/playing/clubs_an...the_rules.html

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk
    I thought this exact thing the entire time I was typing, however, I didn't have a link to provide in support. I also tend to believe that the head to head testing should allow the clubmaker to set just the ball position, which I am not certain that they do, but they may. Simply because the Sweet spot is different for each club. If the clubmaker doesn't know where it is, then how would they expect the customer to know.
    Ok, so this sort of reinforces my point about the marketing claims above...

    Unless the club manufacturers are subject to / agree to use the same testing conditions and make the same standardized measurements of clubhead performance, then you're comparing apples to oranges. You're relying totally on what they're claiming, and call me pessimistic, but I don't always think you can rely on that...

    I know that the USGA sets general guidelines for clubhead construction and COR limits, etc., and tests for compliance with same, but I seriously doubt that they are party to any sort of standardized testing that would serve to substantiate one manufacturer's claims of superior performance over a competing brand.

  11. #11
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    I agree completely that the shaft is the driving force of the club, and should be the first consideration, but I also agree with the looks argument...if a club is not pleasing to look at it makes me uncomfortable. Also, the weighting makes a major difference in the ball flight with a given club. Apart from asthetics, taking 10 neutral weighted clubs from different manufacturers (quality clubs), and using the same shaft on each should give relatively similar results. You must also considere the feel and sound factors with drivers, but once again a personal preference issue. A very good golfer might notice subtle differences, but average players would probably not notice a hell of a lot of difference. In spite of this, however, I have a preference in drivers. There are others I could probably hit every bit as well, but I am comfortable with mine, so I swing it better...mind you, I will be changing the shaft on it very soon.
    Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!

  12. #12
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    I don't hit Launchers all that well. You'll have to come see for yourself~

    But trust me, it doesn't suit my swing all that well. I make it have a strange rapport at impact too.
    TM Burner 9.5 - Stiff
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    Titleist Pro-V1x, Golfbuddy+, lots of game baby but still a 8.1

  13. #13
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    There are significant differences between drivers.
    Deep faced vs. shallower faced will affect center of gravity and whether one is looking for horizontal or vertical forgiveness. Center of gravity will affect spin and trajectory.
    Even within different sizes and shapes, the center of gravity will be affected by the internal weighting strategy and materials used. A composite head will have more weight lower in the clubhead and thus the center of gravity is lowered. Whether the center of gravity is more anterior or posterior will affect how forgiving (playable) vs. a club that can be more easily worked for controlled fades or draws.
    The shaft is an enormous variable. Most OEM companies have finally realized that they can't slap on a piece of junk shaft on a good head and expect a happy consumer. Most OEM's now offer a variety of possible shafts for the same price or for minimal upgrade cost. Getting the correct flex is important, but getting the optimal kickpoint, torque, and tip stiffness can make the difference between average and far above average performance.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  14. #14
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    Have the luxury to test current drivers side by side with identical brand, length and flex of the shafts at a local range (might be gone by the end of year, what a lost!). I can tell the differences, at least to group them with comparable distances. I think the swing weight, weight distribution of the head, center of the gravity (or design in general) matter most.

    Cleveland 460 comp, light weight no matter which shafts, performs like no other, simply effortless (50-60% of power) with distance and control

    R5 neutral, Adams Redline 460 (optimum weight and weight distribution, feels and performs similar with identical YS-6, NVS or purple ice); aim and smack type (80% power)

    G2, Cobra SZ, Macgregor Eye-O-Matic 420cc with YS-6 or NV 65 somewhere between the above two groups in terms of effort (70%)

    Macgregor NVG, Cleveland launcher 400 (heavy and stiff face), 90% power needed

    Always like the symmetric Snake Eyes or Golfsmith line of driver or woods. Have better control with the first two group plus G2, with optimal shaft for me.

    Differences of weight distributions and forgiveness of various woods/hybrids are more prominant because of the smaller sizes

  15. #15
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    I have been partial to Titleist drivers for the past 6 years or so. Starting w/ the 975D all the way up to the 983K. I've hit other drivers but for the most part nothing else "fit" my eye or had the sound and feel of the Titleist. I never really thought I would change brands but as I stated in the "Driver/Shaft Combo" thread I am now looking for an Ignite w/ a Diamana shaft. The look and feel of the Nike is different than I'm used to but the preformance outweighs makes it hard not to switch. I'm just curious as to why Titleist is lagging behind in clubhead size, while other companies are already at the max.
    ...we'll ride the spiral to the end
    we may just go where noone's been.

  16. #16
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    I view Titlelist as pro-targeted (that's why I can't hit I can hit with head tilted/angled, but normally hit other drivers/woods with leveled approach), the design team might be more conservative and favor traditional design.

  17. #17
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    Any you guys ever hit an SMT 455 Big Bore before? Baby, it is long, and it's a legal.

    Funny, how nobody ever mentions SMT, Alpha, Integra or Bang, yet they are as long as any of the previously mentioned clubs.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwjdwithca
    Any you guys ever hit an SMT 455 Big Bore before? Baby, it is long, and it's a legal.

    Funny, how nobody ever mentions SMT, Alpha, Integra or Bang, yet they are as long as any of the previously mentioned clubs.
    The SMT 455 Deep Bore is an excellent driver. It is quite forgiving, quite long, and is definitely a head turner with that smooth face (no score lines). I've had one, and currently I'm experimenting with an SMT Babylon with a lightweight steel shaft to make a "control driver". SMT makes good products.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  19. #19
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    I think for the most part, shafts are what makes the differences. Lengths, kicks, stiffnesses. Club heads are for the aesthetic purpose, especially since nowadays, every club on the market sits right on the borderline of all the PGA,CPGA, USGA, and everything elses clubs specs. (COR's and the like) Their are things in the heads that change the feel when hitting (Deep face, shallow face and so on) But it still comes down to shafts.
    Sure the R7 adjustable weights are awesome. I personally liked the feel of the R7 when I tried it. I would never trade in my Nike for it. I also find head size to be a big contributing factor to whether or not I like the club. The R7 is huge, felt like a football on the end of a stick, where as my 350CC Nike feels perfect. Feel and shafts. Aesthetics a bit too, but feel and shafts.

    If you swing harder, get used to steel shafts, your gonna need em. I sure did.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorkman53
    The SMT 455 Deep Bore is an excellent driver. It is quite forgiving, quite long, and is definitely a head turner with that smooth face (no score lines). I've had one, and currently I'm experimenting with an SMT Babylon with a lightweight steel shaft to make a "control driver". SMT makes good products.
    Nothing to do with this thread but you must be the Ho of all club Hos!

  21. #21
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    I did try SMT year or two before, mv2 and spectrum, not as forgiving, just don't think I have enough speed to smack it. Couldn't find a place to demo Deep bore or O2, stop there. Solid club though

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