Lies, lies, and upright lie angles

[Dave T]

Do people who get fitted for very upright (or very flat) lie-angle clubs still use more standard lie angles because they're easier to address the ball with?

And, do many people alter the lie angle throughout their set? I have very upright lie angle clubs, and I find the low irons and wedges extremely difficult to hit, esp. if I'm trying to hit a cut or flop shot. As far as I know, most people keep the same lie angle throughout their set, although I know Jim Furyk plays a 3 degree upright 3 iron, and lowers the uprightness from down to a standard lie angle for his wedges.

Thanks!

- Dave

(and if you're interested, here's how I got to this point)
My History:
After a lifetime of playing as a right-hander, three years ago I decided to switch to playing left handed (long story). I made what I now think was a mistake, to immediately get fitted for new clubs. I went from inch-long 2-degree upright Zing 2's to inch-long 5 degree upright Henry Griffits clubs. I'm 6 foot 3, with relatively long arms and shortish legs for my height, and I questioned the extreme upright lie angle on these clubs, especially since, with the same body as a righty, I only played 2 degree upright. (I was a 12 handicap righty.) But, the pro insisted that the 5-degree upright was correct.

So, I tried those clubs for two years before I gave up on them, and went to a set that a friend loaned me, with standard lie angles.

Then, this year, I decided to go for a new set. I got fitted for some Mizuno MX-23's. The pro said he was fitting me at 2.5 degrees upright. But, when I got the clubs, it turns out that they're 4 degrees upright (and 1.25 inch long)! The pro had fitted me on the Titleist fitting system since he didn't have a lefty fitting system for the Mizunos, and said that Mizunos were more upright than Titleists, which is why the 4 degree.

I don't doubt that the lie-angle board showed that the 4 degree upright was right for me. However, I find these clubs very difficult to set up with. Basically, I have to set up with the toe of the club in the air, and then I (supposedly) will come into the ball with the club more upright - I guess because my hands are a little further out from my body, and also due to the flex of the shaft.

[mike 34]

Interesting post. I just got fitted a year ago for Ping i3 plus blades. Silver dot which is 4 degrees upright, 1 inch long and the stiff steel ping shaft +1 stiffness added. I also got the Maroon Si3 driver which is 5 degrees upright with the Ping x-stiff graphite (almost too stiff for me, but I hit the stiff and just whacked the heck out of it with not a lot of control, but a ton of distance, I may try a different shaft, heavier but less stiff).

I pretty much was never able to hit draws with my previous clubs which were only 2 degrees upright, and drivers that were never more than standard for lie angle. I usually hit a medium fade to a serious slice with all my clubs. I simply could not draw the ball no matter how hard I tried. After being fitted properly, I was quickly able to hit a nice draw or a nice fade with all my clubs without tons of effort, and I make nice flush contact. The driver has been fairly reliable with a medium draw pretty typical, but will do some wicked hooks if mishit on the toe or if I over cook it. I would like to work on a power fade with the driver, which I have hit with it, but with such an upright club, not sure how reliable it will be...

I only notice a slight toe up at address with my irons, but I can imagine if you have a major toe up look at address with your irons that can be visually a problem. My "guess" is that you may very well have a major swing problem. With the toe way up, you may take the club back inside, but you may be tending to "cast" the club at the top and possibly coming in very steep, thus probably getting the club "flush" at impact. Kinda like a "reverse" Jim Furyk swing...maybe...just guessing here...

I would recommend that you have some analysis done of your swing, and work with a pro to try and fix what might be going wrong with your swing, then getting re-fit. Switching to all lefty may also be serious problem. For me, it has taken so many years to kinda get comfortable hitting, I can't imagine trying to become a switch hitter in this game

[Bravo35223]

You've asked two questions. The first one - I don't understand. Please clarify.

Question #2 - Yes you are right. Most golfers have a complete set in a uniform lie angle. The fact that the clubs are progressively shorter in length as the lofts increase takes into account the fact that the lie angles are the same. For this reason, most clubfitters are going to recommend that you get fitted for a given lie angle and make an entire set with a uniform lie angle.

I'd watch out about making comparisons with professional golfers. I have no reason to doubt your information about Jim Furyk. But please be aware that their clubs are bent in lie and loft on a club by club basis in a trailer on demand. Obviously their skills is using clubs and the resources they have in evaluating and measuring ball flight characteristics are huge. I'm not saying that under any circumstances you should never consider what Jim Furyk does is for you (or Me). It's just highly unlikely.

To borrow a concept from healthcare - you may want to get a second opinion. Take the clubs to another clubfitter and have them checked. They will put the white tape on the bottom and have you hit each one several times. This will tell them if they are properly fitted.

Seems to me this is the basis of the issue you face. Lemme know on question #1. I am probably missing something....

[Dave T]

Thanks for the replies!

Ok - Mike - to reply to your comments: yes, I have long suspected exactly what you say - that I'm coming over the top. I know my address position is fine. I can at least stand up to the ball like I used to when I was a better-golfer rightie, and the first thing pros comment when they see my swing is that my address looks very good. And yet, the lie angle that fits my swing has the toe way up at address. Hmmmm..

Bravo:
Yes, I'm not very clear, am I. In my first question, I was wondering if I'd be better off hitting flatter lies, just so I didn't have to deal with the awkwardness of addressing the ball toe-up.

- Dave

[Bravo35223]

We are often asked questions on this forum that (unfortunately) we just can't answer because we can't see the golfer and his clubs.

I am not trying to answer here but..if your clubs look "Toe UP" at address, something is wrong:

1) You are seeing things (and sometimes we all do!!)
2) Your clubs have been horribly mis fit for you.
3) Your set up is wrong - you are too far away from the ball.

The TOTALITY of the situation needs to be addressed.

1) How well the clubs are fit
2) your swing
3) The ball flight that results from your current club set up, how you address and how you swing - all together.

Recommend you take the clubs to a new clubfitter, have them put the white tape on bottom and check them. Try to find a clubfitter who can give a look at your swing at the same time (probably tough). Something is very wrong here and we can't fix it without looking at it. I'd do it now, because your situation may screw you up to where it will take awhile to fix once the equipment is right

Good Luck.

[Dave T]

Bravo:

Thanks. Ok, I know I'm not seeing things. It's very obvious when hitting off of a mat. And, I also know my set-up is fine. And, the lie-tape will show that the clubs fit. The issue is that I come into the ball more upright than at address. Some of this is normal, due to the flexing of the club at impact. But, I suspect most of it is due to a flaw in my swing. This is why I wonder why pros base so much of clubfitting on looking at the impact tape, and not so much on just having you set up with a proper address, and taking some measurements.

- Dave

[Bravo35223]

OK, then I'll have to come to the same conclusion that Mike did. If your fit and set up is proper and you come into it more upright at impact then (by process of elimination) you have a swing flaw.

I think pros put so much stock in the impact tape because the impact tape is the end result of:

1) Club set up
2) Golfer set up
3) Swing

All three combined are going to be manifested in the impact tape. And I think that if a professional teacher would look at your ball flight, they would evaluate ALL THREE items listed above. All teachers from your local teaching pro to Flick, Harmon, and Ledbetter will be evaluating all 3 factors, so I would have someone in your area who is qualified to check the dynamic of these three factors together.

I sincerely hope I have helped and that I have understood your issues.

[mike 34]

Maybe your best bet is to really focus on fixing a bad habit of casting and coming over the top. I have suffered from that for years and years. I have worked on several things, and feel that I am finally coming down from the inside. Furyk goes outside but drops it in, the most dramatic example I think I have seen. You may really want to focus on that issue. I can tell you, that when I hit bad and make bad contact it is typically the result of casting or hitting with the hands from the top.

I recently saw Freddie Couples, and he takes it back smoothly on a big arc and slowly drops it down on the inside. Freaking awesome oily beauty. It lead me to think of taking the club back more along the target line and up, but work on dropping it down and coming back inside the "take back line". But you have to avoid using your hands to do it because you will be casting if you use your hands to hit.

I have worked a long time on a drill, that I never really could figure out why it worked so well until I saw Freddie Couples hit last week. Set up nice and parallel to your target line, then you take your right foot (I am a rightie so switch what I say) and step it a couple of feet back away from the target line and also a slightly more narrow stance. Like you are setting up for a HUGE draw with your target line WAY to the right of your target (for you way left with your left foot back from the target line and your right foot up normally). Take some swings by taking the club back on your parallel target line and you should probably make some real nice contact, because your lower body is lined up so that when you come back to strike the ball the club has no choice but to come from the inside. Also, you will need to move the ball up in your stance, closer to your lead foot (for you your right foot) because you are coming in so far from the inside.

I hit the ball a club longer with this drill, with nice flush contact and a nice long draw. But I am trying to figure out how to incorporate it into my regular lined up swing. Still working on that, but this drill has really helped me work on coming from the inside and hitting a long draw, along with making really nice contact. This drill might help you stop coming in so steeply. Also, try to start your downswing by stepping your lead foot down, instead of the instictive "hit" from the top with the hands. This should help drop the club from the inside. I only know, cause I have worked so hard on not hitting with the hands, and coming down from the inside led by a weigth shift with my lead foot on up.

Best of luck fixing your swing. Hope the drill helps if you can figure out my description. Maybe get that fixed first, then get re-fit or simply have your clubs bent a couple of degrees back towards normal. If they happen to be forged clubs, you can bend those from here to next week...

[Dave T]

Thanks for the suggestions, Mike!

I'll try that drill. The problem for me, though, is that if my clubs are ~too~ upright, then they will discourage me from coming more from the inside. If I do, and come in on a flatter plane, then the heel will hit the ground first, and I'll hit a nasty hook. It's not good when your clubs give you negative feedback when you're trying to fix something.

- Dave

[mike 34]

What type of clubs are they, forged vs. cast ?

I know you said you are proper in set up, but do you "reach" for the ball ?

Curious, cuz I have what sounds like about the same build, 6'3" with almost the same club specs, 4 degrees upright with 1 inch longer irons. My clubs sit with a very slight but not noticable toe up. Of course, the fairly rounded sole makes it not so noticeable. Yours sounds like it is drastic, so that leads me to believe that maybe your arms are a lot longer then mine (36 inch sleeve) and your arms hang lower, and the ball is out further so the toe is way up. You swing back inside but come do a figure 8 and come down steep. Or maybe your hands are too close to your body and arms are really long, so you have no choice but to come in steep.

What describes your setup better ? Have you ever dropped the club and let your arms hang loose after you address the ball. If your arms/hands fall (gravity) forwards or backwards then you might be fighting that...

[Bravo35223]

Thanks for the suggestions, Mike!

I'll try that drill. The problem for me, though, is that if my clubs are ~too~ upright, then they will discourage me from coming more from the inside. If I do, and come in on a flatter plane, then the heel will hit the ground first, and I'll hit a nasty hook. It's not good when your clubs give you negative feedback when you're trying to fix something.

- Dave

Dave: If "the heel will hit the ground first" the impact tape will show this. I really think this is your best START. Hit ALL the clubs with impact tape. Check results and then through processs of elimination work through the issues...

You're probably a pretty good hitter already and will be able to solve this fairly quickly. Sound like you understand swing mechanics very well. I'll bet a well qualified teacher with impact tape could figure it out in 15 minutes...

[mike 34]

Dave: If "the heel will hit the ground first" the impact tape will show this. I really think this is your best START. Hit ALL the clubs with impact tape. Check results and then through processs of elimination work through the issues...

You're probably a pretty good hitter already and will be able to solve this fairly quickly. Sound like you understand swing mechanics very well. I'll bet a well qualified teacher with impact tape could figure it out in 15 minutes...

If his swing has a serious flaw, which he says that he does cast and comes in too steep, then I think he needs to fix that first, at least if it is as bad as it sounds, with the toe way up at address but needing 5 degrees upright to be flush at impact, that "sounds" really really odd, so I suggest using the next couple of months to get his swing fixed, then get his clubs bent back a few degrees.

[Bravo35223]

If his swing has a serious flaw, which he says that he does cast and comes in too steep, then I think he needs to fix that first, at least if it is as bad as it sounds, with the toe way up at address but needing 5 degrees upright to be flush at impact, that "sounds" really really odd, so I suggest using the next couple of months to get his swing fixed, then get his clubs bent back a few degrees.

Good point. Let's let the doctor go at it and report back to the gallery over the upcoming weeks....

[mike 34]

These are forged clubs. They bend as easy as butter. I re-read your first post, and you mentioned the short irons and wedges are more of a problem. So, it is possible you can have each of your clubs bent as indicated by the impact tape according to your current swing characteristics. Forged bend real easy, and a local pro should be able to do them real easy and fairly cheaply. I am guessing he may charge you $5-10 a club. Since they are forged and easy to bend, I would call around, and get them customized to your tape indications as Bravo suggested. You should probably call Mizuno and discuss having them modified, they may suggest a limit to bending, or they may do them free of charge if you can supple them the info.

[mike 34]

Good point. Let's let the doctor go at it and report back to the gallery over the upcoming weeks....

I got my Virtual Golf PhD from the Hackers University of Duffdom, its right here on my office wall ;)

[Dave T]

What type of clubs are they, forged vs. cast ?

I know you said you are proper in set up, but do you "reach" for the ball ?

No, I don't reach for the ball - my arms are hanging down. I don't know my sleeve, but I do know my arms are longish for my height, and my legs short. I am somewhat chimpish.

And, regarding the other comments - yes, I agree I should fix my swing and then have the clubs lie angle checked. It's just that it's hard to fix my swing if the clubs are actually too upright - if I should be coming into the ball flatter, then the heel will hit first, and I'll hook it. Not exactly positive feedback. This is why I think clubs should be fitted more to the swing you "should have", and not the one you do have, by relying more on measurements of your hand height from the ground at a proper address position, and not by looking at what the impact tape tells you on a (probably flawed) swing. Ok, I'm repeating myself now...

- Dave

[mike 34]

I guess the good thing is that your clubs are forged and will be very easy to adjust. I can understand your problem with the short irons having the toe up. Most wedges are not usually a full swing (most of the time) and therefore I would have to agree that these do not need to be sooo upright as the rest of the set. Having to chip finesse shots or half wedges with the toe way up must be tricky. Since you have long arms, maybe you could really choke down on the clubs say an inch or more and have the ball closer to your body. This should alleviate about 2-3 degrees of the toe being up, does that help for the wedges to shorter irons ?

Maybe your clubs are too darn long. But certainly getting some quality lessons, and practicing some fundamentals to find flaws in your swing might be a better use of time, that is if you think your swing is what you want to fix, instead of customizing lie angles and length to fit your current swing. That would be frustrating cause you want to play, but fundamental flaws would be better to fix now, in my opinion.

I took a few years off from the game and last year, I got back into it and wanted to get fit for clubs. But I spent a few months getting my swing into shape, and going through my fundamentals, and having pros evaluate my swing, specifically asking them to look for glairing flaws. The report was good, they thought I had a really solid swing and good set up, etc. etc. So, at that point I felt confident that I was swinging within my power/speed range, and getting fit (at that time) made sense, so I would not have fitting problems or questions later. I spent a lot of time researching and hitting clubs, and experimenting with different shafts, before I really wanted to invest. Some pros, I knew the clubs and shafts better than they did. They thought if I hit for 15 minutes, I would be ready to buy, but I hit, and hit, and hit, and experimented and asked questions. I settled on the ping i3 irons and I found a local pro who spent a lot of time evaluating my swing and knew his products well, and had me experiment between the regular and blade versions, and their steel shaft options. The blades were for me. I know my clubs are right for me, and I just need to get better at playing the game.