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  1. #1
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    driving with too much backspin

    so ive known theres something not quite right about my driving distances for a little while because my recent swing speed averages around 104-8 and im making very solid contact but my distance at the range rarely tops 235. i was swinging the r7 quad ht with stock stiff shaft.

    my ball flight is pretty str8, but it was getting up incredibly high. my initial thought was that the kickpoint on the shaft must be too low. or maybe the "ht" part of the r7 was doing too much work. so yesterday i had a driver fitting done.

    went to the golf store and the guy did testing with their vector machine. the result was that with my current driver i was putting ridiculous backspin on the ball. more backspin than he had ever seen someone put on the ball during the test. 6000+ RPM. the swings were my normal ones and as usual, according to the machine i was hitting str8 and rangin between 215 and 230. launch angles were good too.

    so he busts out a bunch of drivers and i swing em all. none of the lofts were lower than 9.5 and most were 10.5. basically within a few yards the distances were the same. i swung the ft-3 and the cobra comp 454 the best and the rpm was down to about 5000 which is still WAY too much back spin. liked how the mitsubishi shaft felt on the cobra so i bought it. took it in 10.5 loft. took it to the range and my distances were definitely up, but not dramatically (still under 250 for sure).

    so im doing my driver backspin research and its fairly clear across the board that lower lofted drivers (7.5 or 8.5) will create less backspin than higher lofted ones. so why is this "expert" not even mentioning that?

    i understand that the lower lofted drivers are harder to control....anyone else have similar situation?

    also, my swing is pretty flat---im kind of muscled and only 5.8...any tips for reducing backspin in the drive?

  2. #2
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    It's likely....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip
    so ive known theres something not quite right about my driving distances for a little while because my recent swing speed averages around 104-8 and im making very solid contact but my distance at the range rarely tops 235. i was swinging the r7 quad ht with stock stiff shaft.

    my ball flight is pretty str8, but it was getting up incredibly high. my initial thought was that the kickpoint on the shaft must be too low. or maybe the "ht" part of the r7 was doing too much work. so yesterday i had a driver fitting done.

    went to the golf store and the guy did testing with their vector machine. the result was that with my current driver i was putting ridiculous backspin on the ball. more backspin than he had ever seen someone put on the ball during the test. 6000+ RPM. the swings were my normal ones and as usual, according to the machine i was hitting str8 and rangin between 215 and 230. launch angles were good too.

    so he busts out a bunch of drivers and i swing em all. none of the lofts were lower than 9.5 and most were 10.5. basically within a few yards the distances were the same. i swung the ft-3 and the cobra comp 454 the best and the rpm was down to about 5000 which is still WAY too much back spin. liked how the mitsubishi shaft felt on the cobra so i bought it. took it in 10.5 loft. took it to the range and my distances were definitely up, but not dramatically (still under 250 for sure).

    so im doing my driver backspin research and its fairly clear across the board that lower lofted drivers (7.5 or 8.5) will create less backspin than higher lofted ones. so why is this "expert" not even mentioning that?

    i understand that the lower lofted drivers are harder to control....anyone else have similar situation?

    also, my swing is pretty flat---im kind of muscled and only 5.8...any tips for reducing backspin in the drive?
    There are so many factors for generating excessive backspin. It could be your swing, the design of the R7 Quad HT head, and/or the shaft.

    If your swing is consistent, you will be better off in changing drivers that generate low spin. The shaft play the most important role in the club so you might want to look into getting a high kick point shaft (that launches the ball low) and probably Stiff or X-Stiff flex. Shaft should be heavier weight than the traditional 60-65 grams. But don't take my suggestions to heart -- you need to find a competent clubfitter, not some salesman, to determine the right shaft and driver head combo for you.

  3. #3
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    my swing is pretty consistent at this point. obviously however im tinkering to try and find a swing that gets those extra yards.

    guess the bottom line is that i need to have someone look at me again.

    ive never swung a club less than 9.5 loft...i have this sneaking suspicion that its going to make a big difference to get that 7.5 or 8.5...but maybe im just being a bit overly optimistic

  4. #4
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    I was like you and never tried a driver with a loft of less than 9.5.

    I bought my current driver with the intention of just trying out a lower lofted club. I really started liking the results and my spin rate decreased dramatically. I quickly sold my 9.5* FT-3 tour.

    I am trying out different shafts now. I was loseing distance with R and S flex shafts and I find myself loading the club better with a lightweight X flex shaft.

    Give the Aldila NV 65X shaft a try. It is an inexpensive shaft that gave me great results.
    Taylor Made R7 Superquad 9.5*
    Nickent 3dx 17* Aldila NV
    Mizuno MX-23 3-PW
    Taylor Made TP 54* & 58*
    Scotty Cameron Red X2 34" 340g

  5. #5
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    Frankly, another possibility is that the machine was out of calibration. It sounds like you may indeed have too much spin on the ball from the way you describe the trajectory and distance vs. swingspeed, but 6000 rpm for a driver really seems quite excessive. That's in the short iron range. I can't way for sure, obviously, but I'd be suspicious of readings like that.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  6. #6
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    The most common causes I know are actually usually related. Teeing the ball to low, which in turn may cause you to strike the ball with a decending blow.

  7. #7
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    Agreed...

    Quote Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk
    The most common causes I know are actually usually related. Teeing the ball to low, which in turn may cause you to strike the ball with a decending blow.
    that a descending blow to the ball is the only way to cause backspin with a club. I'd suggest positioning the ball a bit further forward in your stance, maybe tee it up a bit more and try to hit it just at the start of the upswing.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by fred3
    that a descending blow to the ball is the only way to cause backspin with a club. I'd suggest positioning the ball a bit further forward in your stance, maybe tee it up a bit more and try to hit it just at the start of the upswing.
    Agree. All other clubs are designed to be hit either with a downswing (irons, wedges) or swept at the end of the downswing (long irons/fairway woods). The driver should be hit at the start of the upswing. Ideally, if the driver can be hit with an upswing on about the same angle as the loft on the club, there should be very little backswing placed on the ball. This is how people are able to get the "high launch, low spin" drives that carry and roll so well. If you are hitting down on the ball, it will certainly increase spin, but I'd still be skeptical that a driver is spinning the ball at 6000 rpm.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  9. #9
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    The big push is towards higher lofted drivers now, and people are pushing them like crazy because of the advantages they offer where side-spin is concerned, as well as the help they offer in getting the ball up. Two of the longer clubs I have hit were my old 975 L-FE - 8.5* stiff Graf Lite, and a Ping Si3 - 7.5* stiff Fuji Speeder. I traded in my 975 last summer, and have ultimately decided on my G2, which has 10* of loft, but with which I hit much shorter. Now that my swing has improved, I would not hesitate to go back to the 8.5*, as I know I am losing distance due to a higher flight.

    What the guys have told you so far is dead-on - you need to hit up at the ball with the driver, not down on it, but if you are hitting a straight ball you should at least give a lower loft a try...you might be surprised.
    I can't wait for shore leave so I can get me som fukkin' poon-tang.

  10. #10
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    I'v got a very high trajectory with my irons, cause I've got a steep swing (I'm 6"6) and lofted irons. But with my driver my trajectory is low-mid. Maybe you should try a low lofted driver with high kickpoint. Now I'm using a TM 510 TP 8.5* fujikura 757 speeder stiff. Before that it was the Mizuno 300 SII 9* UST Proforce gold 65 stiff. Both have/had a low-mod trajectory.
    If you hit the driver solid most of the times I would go for the Mizuno. It's not forgiving but is very very long . The TM is more forgiving though.
    "I'll always remember the day I broke ninety. I had a few beers in the clubhouse and was so excited I forgot to play the back nine."

    Driver: Nak NP-1 9.5* Graphite Design Tour AD I-65 stiff
    3-wood: Alpha V5 15* Fujikura Rombax 7W06 stiff
    Irons: Miura Tournament Blades i2-PW TT DG S300
    Wedges: Mizuno MP-R 52* and 56* True Temper S300
    Putter: Scotty Cameron American Classic VII Napa Custom
    Ball: Taylormade TP red LDP

  11. #11
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    well...i suppose there is a chance the machine was miscalibrated---they had to switch it up to lefty---and didnt seem totally sure at first how to do it. that said, what i see out on the range and sometimes on the course is consistnt with the numbers. especially the super hall ball flight.

    as to teeing hig and putting the ball well forward. At the range, for instance, I use the 3 inch tee and im experimenting with all sorts of ball positions---even an inch or two in front of my lead foot.

    on a separate monitor at the range, i was posting up to 109 mph but even those swing were generating a 1.3 to 1.34 ball speed to swing speed ratio. when i slowed my swing down the ratio basically stayed the same. so pretty clearly energy is not being transferred properly from head to ball.

    anyway, they make the 454 comp in as low as 7.5 so hopefully i can try out a few...and the stock stiff shaft on the comp is the mitsubishi sl-45....45 grams with a low kick.

    am i right in thinking that i want to have a high kick point shaft? or should i first see what the deal is when i use a lower loft driver?

  12. #12
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    to my knowledge, changing the kickpoint of a shaft would alter the launch angle moreso than the backspin. You said that your launch angle readings were coming out fine but your backspin was excessively high. I'm gonna say that the launch monitor was broken so go ahead and try a driver with less loft and a higher kickpoint. good luck!!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip
    so ive known theres something not quite right about my driving distances for a little while because my recent swing speed averages around 104-8 and im making very solid contact but my distance at the range rarely tops 235. i was swinging the r7 quad ht with stock stiff shaft.

    my ball flight is pretty str8, but it was getting up incredibly high. my initial thought was that the kickpoint on the shaft must be too low. or maybe the "ht" part of the r7 was doing too much work. so yesterday i had a driver fitting done.

    went to the golf store and the guy did testing with their vector machine. the result was that with my current driver i was putting ridiculous backspin on the ball. more backspin than he had ever seen someone put on the ball during the test. 6000+ RPM. the swings were my normal ones and as usual, according to the machine i was hitting str8 and rangin between 215 and 230. launch angles were good too.

    so he busts out a bunch of drivers and i swing em all. none of the lofts were lower than 9.5 and most were 10.5. basically within a few yards the distances were the same. i swung the ft-3 and the cobra comp 454 the best and the rpm was down to about 5000 which is still WAY too much back spin. liked how the mitsubishi shaft felt on the cobra so i bought it. took it in 10.5 loft. took it to the range and my distances were definitely up, but not dramatically (still under 250 for sure).

    so im doing my driver backspin research and its fairly clear across the board that lower lofted drivers (7.5 or 8.5) will create less backspin than higher lofted ones. so why is this "expert" not even mentioning that?

    i understand that the lower lofted drivers are harder to control....anyone else have similar situation?

    also, my swing is pretty flat---im kind of muscled and only 5.8...any tips for reducing backspin in the drive?
    Have to agree with the folks here....either the launch monitor has a screw loose or the pro does for not checking things out.....are you hitting straight down on the ball??? with that kind of backspin the ball should spin back to you when landing.....hmmmmmm back-up with a driver...??? never seen that one (Not sure I would want to). Try another launch monitor and hit some different sticks to compare...I recently went with the New Nike (sasquatch) its a low spin head design and like what I have found....to each their own...be careful with low lofted drivers..any spin at all and it will go berserk...Good luck.......Paul

  14. #14
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    I dont know how much differance it would make but does the driver you have now have grooves on the sweet spot?

  15. #15
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    Cleveland Launcher backspin

    This is related to the topic but on a sidenote. If you have any experience with the Cleveland Launchers, which one has the least backspin of the three. I played the Launcher 460 9.5 regular flex shaft today and I could not keep the ball down and the ballspin down. I usually have a medium trajectory launch probably around 13 or so degrees and 100 mph (give or take) swing speed. I was getting backspin divot marks from this driver and I have NEVER done that before with any driver. Thanks for the input!

  16. #16
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    I am not the most technically minded golfer.If it goes far I like it.I like a high tee.The range ones are too short unless you put the three inch on top of the mat.Infact I had to build a tee to take to the range to get the height I like.The modern mongaloid drivers need a ball up high or so "they say".I just keep jerking around untill something works.Not the best advice but its what I got.

  17. #17
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    its occurred to me that a lot of my practice time is on mats that sort of force me to narrow my stance and kind of dictate how i stand. im thinking that as many have pointed out, the botom line has to be that my angle of attack is slightly or extremely downward (not taking divots on the course though).

    im thinking that at the range tomorrow im going to put the ball an inch or two in front of my lead foot...no way physically i can make solid contact and creat ebackspin!

    was at copelands today and i swung a 9 degree callaway 454. felt pretty nice actually...and the simulator put me at a couple 250+ drives. still want to try a 7.5 loft driver too, though. titleist 975s go for super cheap these days (under 30 bucks).

  18. #18
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    I would be forced to consider the fact that it is your swing, and possibly also an issue with the shaft. With such high spin, your ball is probably taking off ok, then balooning up to come to a near stop before dropping, then getting no roll.

    You should probably stay with a conventional loft (9.5-10.5), and indeed narrow your stance. Try influencing your stance with a 'draw' stance, and a draw swing that will bring your arms further ahead of you after swinging through the ball ( rather than quickly around you). Also, try to come towards a more vertical swing plane if swinging too flat.

    Got it? Main things, draw style stance and more vertical swing plane - and keep those hands loose to release through impact.

    It may initially feel like you're not swinging as hard, because it feels different and more difficult - and chances are you will initially lose some swing speed, but despite this, you will quickly be longer with a better trajectory, and progressively you will redevelop swing speed to your potential.

  19. #19
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    Major Change

    SO: I go to the range today with four things in mind:

    A. Put the ball WAY up in my stance
    B. Tee the ball up higher
    C. think about having a neutral or upward angle of attack (anything but downward)
    D. Swing much more vertically.

    AND THE RESULT:




    ABSOLUTELY 100 percent the same (with an occasional duck hook thrown in).



    So you know what i did?
    you dont know so I'll tell you.



    Ii teed the ball up low (1 inch off the mat)...but more imprtantly i put the ball back in my stance...way back...into the middle WITH MY DRIVER! so much for conventional wisdom. same swing...except i was super conscious of turning my hands over.


    result: hitting the fence 250 out (not the bottom of the fence either) with at least 3/4 of a bucket of balls.

    so the only question that remains is: how do you explain it? MY problem, according to the suspect vector monitor was backspin...how could my fix be reducing backspin??!!

    im goiing back to the vector place with my new setup to get a real reading too.

    in the meantime, since yesterday i got a sweet deal on two titleist drivers...975d and 975j, in 8.5 and 7.5 lofts, stiff shafts, 30 bucks a piece AFTER SHIPPING!

    whats your thoughts?

  20. #20
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    My thoughts are:
    congradulations sometimes you gotta damn the physics and just hit the thing.Maybe don't even try a tee next time.
    As for feeling odd on range mats,I hear ya.I really hate ranges that are covered because of the stinking polls everywhere.I am a tall guy with a long reach and always cramp up on closed in ranges.I also find some range mats slide or twist when you really start coming around fast.Thank god I have a plethora to choose from (when its not winter sigh)

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip
    SO: I go to the range today with four things in mind:

    A. Put the ball WAY up in my stance
    B. Tee the ball up higher
    C. think about having a neutral or upward angle of attack (anything but downward)
    D. Swing much more vertically.

    AND THE RESULT:




    ABSOLUTELY 100 percent the same (with an occasional duck hook thrown in).



    So you know what i did?
    you dont know so I'll tell you.



    Ii teed the ball up low (1 inch off the mat)...but more imprtantly i put the ball back in my stance...way back...into the middle WITH MY DRIVER! so much for conventional wisdom. same swing...except i was super conscious of turning my hands over.


    result: hitting the fence 250 out (not the bottom of the fence either) with at least 3/4 of a bucket of balls.

    so the only question that remains is: how do you explain it? MY problem, according to the suspect vector monitor was backspin...how could my fix be reducing backspin??!!

    im goiing back to the vector place with my new setup to get a real reading too.

    in the meantime, since yesterday i got a sweet deal on two titleist drivers...975d and 975j, in 8.5 and 7.5 lofts, stiff shafts, 30 bucks a piece AFTER SHIPPING!

    whats your thoughts?
    If it works, and works fairly consistently, more power to you. The problem I've had with some of my self-improvement adjustments is that they are more complex than a "good swing", so they can work perfectly if I'm "in the zone" but are harder to reproduce consistently day after day, particularly when I'm under real world tension on the course. But if you can get it to work for you day after day, do what works for you.
    Seldom right, never in doubt......

  22. #22
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    definitely well aware that a fix on the range may be a disaster on the course. that said, i am swinging pretty consistently---but i wouldnt be surprised if im so excited to hit long on the course that i shank off one or two

  23. #23
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    A possibility: you are so far from the inside
    1. at impact your club face is open, causing the ball to balloon backspin will negate the sidespin.
    2. did you have the occasional push and push/slice?

  24. #24
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    graham, if you are talking to me, i don't push the ball. sometimes i pull it and it will go straight. sometimes i will fade/slice the ball. never both at the same time. i know it is not the club that is causing me to pull the ball or to slice it, but i think it might be the club that is giving me so much backspin and maybe ballooning the ball. ive never done that with any other club besides the cleveland. im really thinking it may be the shaft not being a great fit for me.

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