Drive for show, putt for dough? I think so...

[golfnut86]

Finally, some one who makes sense, thank you PINGELI. It's the 70 year old guy who drives the ball 180-200 with a dart throwing wedge who always shoots low, not me with my bomb. I will admit that stoning your drive 300+ is fun and everyone oohs and aahhs, but they also walk away with my money. Golf is scored from 180 in, that’s where the money is made. For everyone upset that they cannot hit the long ball, shutup. You walk away with our money is that not enough?

I know this is from another thread, but that one had become so diluted that I wanted to start another one discussing this theory.

Joeysdaddy has
"Drive for dough, putt for show" in his sig, and alot of other players on this forum are preaching the course management style of golf of the shorter hitters versus the bomb and gauge style of the longer hitters. I can only assume this is because corey pavin just won, tiger played the british without hitting driver (ok once) and phil flopped due to his long stick.

1) When was the last time Pavin won an event? Also, how perfect did he have to play in order to win? He holed out from 200 yards on the final round and had to putt damn near perfectly in order to win. He still only won by 2 strokes.

2) When was the last time you saw Tiger do what he did? The course was only realistically playing 6500 yards (according to many experts and a few pro players) and he was hitting his 2 iron about 280 (which I know isn't nearly as far as the many long bombers we have on the forum but bare with me)

3) It wasn't the bad drive that cost phil. It was the shot that hit the tree, then in the bunker, then in the rough. He coul have easily pitched out, got up and down and be in a playoff. Who would you have taken in a playoff, Phil or Geoff?

oh and some numbers to back up my point

Total career money (thru 2006) for the top ten putters on the tour in 2005: $113,426,412
Total career money for the top ten drivers (in distance) on the tour in 2005: $137,052,061

Interesting to note that both lists include Tiger (the only player on both lists) and that if you were to take his 55 mil out of both lists you'd be left with a difference of:

Putters: $58,426,412
Drivers:$82,052, 061

Bobby Jones was also famous for saying that if he were to do it all over again he would practice his driver more.

Course management might be the new "in" thing on the tour, but don't let it fool you, almost all of the new players (Geoff, Camillo, Adam Scott, JB Holmes etc...) and stalwart superstar golfers (Tiger, Lefty, Sergio, DLIII, Vijay) hit the ball 300 yards on average (Vijay being the shortest @ 294)

Bombs away!

P.S. the thread title should say "I don't think so"

[Eric in NOVA]

I agree. If you don't have the distance, forget about being a PGA star. Luke Donald's a nice guy and a good artist, but he's not gonna be #1 on the PGA. However, it really is an all around game, as the stats show. The best player is obviously someone who can hit it long and putt well. I mean, how hard is that to figure out.

[Mward2002]

I also agree. Distance is the difference between having an easier short iron into a green or a more difficult mid iron.

Also, distance is important with every club in the bag, not just driver. For instance, I only hit my 5 iron maybe 160-165 yards consistently and "accurately." (I suck with my 5 iron big time, for the record) That's a pro's 8 iron. HUGE difference when it comes to getting a ball to get in the air over an object and getting it to stop quickly.

[Joeysdaddy2004]

What made me write the "Bomb and Gouge Vs. Course Management" thread was simply noticing that most of my golf buddies have switched from the fairways and greens mentality to the hit-it-hard-try-to-find-it-hit-it-hard-again mentality. This used to be my style as well, until I started watching replays of old Majors on the GolfChannel. Watching Seve Ballesteros, Jack Nicklaus and those guys carve the air with a ball was awesome, and I resigned myself to be a golfer, not just a "golfball-whacker-guy". Plus, watching Corey Pavin out golf the other long hitters brought a smile to my face. I still remember him hitting that 4 wood at Shinnecock to win the US Open, and that was before I even liked golf).

As far as the course management/shot shaping/fairways-and-greens approach being a "new" thing just because the last 2 tour winners have been noticeably short off the tee (Tiger by his own choosing), this "style" of play is what has been preached and played for , well, all of golf history. It is only with the advent of the metal driver, graphite shafts and multilayer ball (along with improved player physiology) of the last 25 years, that the emphasis has been switched from shaping the ball and strategy off the tee to hitting the ball far and hacking it out of the rough from a shorter yardage.

Yes, the majority of winners on tour are long hitters (what's the tour average now, 290, 295?). Yes, most courses no longer offer golfing exhibitions, as much as they doe distance competitions. When's the last time the tour stopped at a sub 7000 yard track? The truth is, power sells. Most people would rather watch some gorilla crush the ball 325 yards and hit a 7 iron into a par 5 for a 2 putt birdie than watch Corey Pavin lay up off the tee with a punch 3 wood, then lay up with a 5 iron, then knock a wedge stiff to 6 feet and make his birdie (Sunday, #16, I believe).

I am of the other fabric. I loved watching Corey hitting his second shot 40 yards short of Jerry Kelly, because I knew at best, Kelly might get on in 2 and 2 putt, but Pavin would carve out a birdie. I have decided to keep with the tradition of Corey Pavin and play my fairways/greens style until it fails me. My ego weeps though, since today I only it driver 5 times. Fortunately, I shot a 78, so I told my ego to suck it.

[golfnut86]

What made me write the "Bomb and Gouge Vs. Course Management" thread was simply noticing that most of my golf buddies have switched from the fairways and greens mentality to the hit-it-hard-try-to-find-it-hit-it-hard-again mentality. This used to be my style as well, until I started watching replays of old Majors on the GolfChannel. Watching Seve Ballesteros, Jack Nicklaus and those guys carve the air with a ball was awesome, and I resigned myself to be a golfer, not just a "golfball-whacker-guy". Plus, watching Corey Pavin out golf the other long hitters brought a smile to my face. I still remember him hitting that 4 wood at Shinnecock to win the US Open, and that was before I even liked golf).

As far as the course management/shot shaping/fairways-and-greens approach being a "new" thing just because the last 2 tour winners have been noticeably short off the tee (Tiger by his own choosing), this "style" of play is what has been preached and played for , well, all of golf history. It is only with the advent of the metal driver, graphite shafts and multilayer ball (along with improved player physiology) of the last 25 years, that the emphasis has been switched from shaping the ball and strategy off the tee to hitting the ball far and hacking it out of the rough from a shorter yardage.

Yes, the majority of winners on tour are long hitters (what's the tour average now, 290, 295?). Yes, most courses no longer offer golfing exhibitions, as much as they doe distance competitions. When's the last time the tour stopped at a sub 7000 yard track? The truth is, power sells. Most people would rather watch some gorilla crush the ball 325 yards and hit a 7 iron into a par 5 for a 2 putt birdie than watch Corey Pavin lay up off the tee with a punch 3 wood, then lay up with a 5 iron, then knock a wedge stiff to 6 feet and make his birdie (Sunday, #16, I believe).

I am of the other fabric. I loved watching Corey hitting his second shot 40 yards short of Jerry Kelly, because I knew at best, Kelly might get on in 2 and 2 putt, but Pavin would carve out a birdie. I have decided to keep with the tradition of Corey Pavin and play my fairways/greens style until it fails me. My ego weeps though, since today I only it driver 5 times. Fortunately, I shot a 78, so I told my ego to suck it.

There are a few caveats to my argument, and a few caveats I've found in your points.

Bomb & Gauge only works if you can bomb it. Very few people, except for every one on this board, can hit a golf ball about 280 yards (what I consider the begining of the bomb range) and few can hit it 300 (unless of course you play with a hi-bore greased up with flaxseed oil, which should be banned, but I digress).

That being said I'd take the 300 yard bomb slightly off of the fairway and a 7 iron leaving me either putting (in 2) or chipping onto the green from very close.

Otherwise, I'd have to hit a good drive right down the middle (even if its "only", and I say that with a grain of salt, 250) which I still consider to be a difficult task, then hit a 3 wood off of the ground, hope that I don't roll into some bunkers (lets not pretend even the pros can control 3 wood roll) and then pitch it close from 30-50 out so I've got a fair shot at a birdie.

I have to hit 3 solid shots to get me where 2 not so great shots can get me. Hell, I can miss the fairway on a bomb but if I hit a good approach shot i'm putting for eagle. You need 3 perfect shots to be putting for birdie.

I will admit that its not a new technique, but it's new as in the wearing bell bottoms and tight shirts retro new, it's just "in" due to a few circumstances and will quickly fade again.

While alot of stops on the tour aren't under 7000 yards, quite a few play that way, whether it be heat, altitude, course conditions. Hitting it 300 can make a short course shorter, especially if the fairways are generous (which can happen if the course is supposed to play long). The USGA can't get every course to challenge players.

Regarding Pavin, he is a short player, but by choice. His average for last weekend was 267yards, right along his annual average. But his second round average was 280, and his longest drive of the year is 353 yards (pgatour.com). Not too short. His ball striking is amazing, yes, but could you imagine that kind of ball striking with 300 yards off of the tee? He's called sergio. Throw some putting and a killer edge and viola, Tiger Woods ya'll.

Finally, do you always want to shoot a 78? Would you be willing to play a few rounds in the mid 80s, so that eventually you could shoot even par or even below? I'd be willing to bet that if you mastered your driver and learned to use it as a scoring club, you'd get there alot quicker.

[collegegolfer]

Hitting LW, SW, or PW into greens means closer putts...for any person PGA Pro or local duffer. Closer putts mean more putts made. Then it just comes down to realizing which holes having that LW, SW, or PW is better than taking a chance on losing a stroke with an O.B. or water hazard off the tee. There's still decision making and thinking with bomb and gouge. If there isn't the scores will reflect it. I think people who don't hit it long came up with "bomb and gouge" to make it sound like people don't have skill today and just rip it. Trust me, if you don't have a swing that'll keep the ball somewhat straight and you bomb it...you ain't gonna be shooting under 80...unless you play a course with no water hazards or O.B. and 100 yard wide fairways with 0.5 inch rough. I am a young person with a "bomb and gouge" type game...over the last few years I have begun to use my head more (thinking of where to miss, angles into holes) and really THINKING and managaing courses (I even hit more 3 woods and 3 irons than I used to). I don't have the super low rounds I used to (bomb and gouge on a lucky day) but my scoring AVERAGE is much lower and I shoot much more consistently (average of 75.2 right now). I believe there's bomb and gouge on steroids (what I used to play like) and conservative bomb and gouge. But a long drive and a short iron means many more birdies than short drive and long iron...guranteed...and birdies are what win tournaments.

[Reyes463]

I'd be willing to bet that if you mastered your driver and learned to use it as a scoring club, you'd get there alot quicker.

This statement pretty much sums it up. The drive off the tee box IS one of the most important shots in the game because it will set you up for success. On any 450-470 yard par 4, if your not hitting it at least 250 you pretty much have no chance at birdie and low chance of par.

Hitting LW, SW, or PW into greens means closer putts...for any person PGA Pro or local duffer.

Another great point.

The idea is to think about the worst case scenario if you hit a bad drive. If there's no water and no OB, why not hit it as long as you can. even if your going to be hitting out of the rough from 100 yards out as opposed to the fairway from 160 yards out. I think every pro will tell you your better off hitting the 100 yard shot.

I think if you can develop a "go to" shot with the driver (for me it would be a power fade), you can line yourself up accordingly to play that type of shot (play the percentages), even if you miss, you shouldn't be that far off.

[fred3]

Most of what you say appears true, but what you leave out is the fact that 99 percent of "us" will never hit the ball with anywhere near the accuracy of a pro and would be better off lowering our scores using course management as opposed to bombing it.

[fred3]

I also agree. Distance is the difference between having an easier short iron into a green or a more difficult mid iron.

Also, distance is important with every club in the bag, not just driver. For instance, I only hit my 5 iron maybe 160-165 yards consistently and "accurately." (I suck with my 5 iron big time, for the record) That's a pro's 8 iron. HUGE difference when it comes to getting a ball to get in the air over an object and getting it to stop quickly.

you are not a pro! Therefore all comparisons are moot. If a pro tried to bomb it at my course he'd have some pretty poor locations for second shots as our course goes from fairway, to a bit of rough to thick deep woods. Nothing like you see on tv. Sure they'd win if they could bomb it straight, but many professional courses are set up for bombing and birdies (few trees, thin rough) because that's what the audience/advertisers want to see. The courses are set up for bombers....bottom line. If the courses were set up for the average length hitting tour pro with real penalties for hitting it in the woods/rough you'd once again see the shot makers winning most of the time instead of the bomber.

[Reyes463]

Most of what you say appears true, but what you leave out is the fact that 99 percent of "us" will never hit the ball with anywhere near the accuracy of a pro and would be better off lowering our scores using course management as opposed to bombing it.

The way I look at it, if a person doesn't put themselves in a position to make birdie or par from the rough or any other difficult situation then that person won't get any better. I think learning how to hit the tough shots is the best way to lower your scores. You can play course managment when obstacles are appearent.

How many people go to the range and practice hitting low fades, low draws, high fades, high draws, or hit balls out of the rough? Having a variety of shots in your arsenal will help if you bomb one into the trees and you have to play that tricky low cut and roll it to the green.

[LyleG]

How many people go to the range and practice hitting low fades, low draws, high fades, high draws, or hit balls out of the rough?

I do. Nearly every time I go hit balls. I usually hit two large buckets. One strictly for trying to hit targets with a variety of shots.

[Reyes463]

I do. Nearly every time I go hit balls. I usually hit two large buckets. One strictly for trying to hit targets with a variety of shots.

And as much as it pains me to say this, that's why your a low handicapper.

[Mward2002]

you are not a pro! Therefore all comparisons are moot. If a pro tried to bomb it at my course he'd have some pretty poor locations for second shots as our course goes from fairway, to a bit of rough to thick deep woods. Nothing like you see on tv. Sure they'd win if they could bomb it straight, but many professional courses are set up for bombing and birdies (few trees, thin rough) because that's what the audience/advertisers want to see. The courses are set up for bombers....bottom line. If the courses were set up for the average length hitting tour pro with real penalties for hitting it in the woods/rough you'd once again see the shot makers winning most of the time instead of the bomber.

Very true. I think a better wording on my part should have been, "I can't hit any club as far as a longer hitter can" therefore, my 160-165 yard 5 iron is much more difficult to stop than a longer hitter's 8 iron.

[SeldomInTheSlot]

many professional courses are set up for bombing and birdies (few trees, thin rough) because that's what the audience/advertisers want to see. The courses are set up for bombers....bottom line. If the courses were set up for the average length hitting tour pro with real penalties for hitting it in the woods/rough you'd once again see the shot makers winning most of the time instead of the bomber.

While it's true that people want to see big hitters launching 330 yard drives, there's more to why a certain style of course is used than that. PGA courses also have to be able to accommodate 100,000 or so on-course spectators. That's not going to work out too well on heavily forested courses. Sparse trees lining the fairways means more spectators. Enough trees to make the course look nice, add a little bit of strategy, provide some shade for the fans, but still allow freedom of movement around the course is what they're looking for in a PGA tour stop.

[Dan the Man]

How many people go to the range and practice hitting low fades, low draws, high fades, high draws, or hit balls out of the rough?

I also do this every time I go the the range. It makes me comfortable when I'm on the course and I need to hit a certain shot, mostly knock-downs and half wedges but it also helps me when I know I don't want to hit a certain shot. For example, knowing how to hit a draw on purpose helps me when I'm on the tee of a dog leg right and I don't want to draw the ball.


As for the title of this thread I think that players who have length have more potential but it is also worth noting that last years longest hitter on Tour, Scot hend lost his card and isn't doing all that great on the nationwide tour. Dlay isn't having such a hot year either. Risk, reward. You live by the big ball and you can also die by it from time to time.

[golfnut86]

Do you think Bob Heintz, (4th in putting), Brenden Pappas (13th), Charlie Wi (17th) kept their cards even though being in the top 20 in 2005 in putting?

And if Daly couldn't hit it as far as he does, he would even be on the tour right now, with his shot making and putting as bad as its been.

To others: a final note for sergio. #1 in GIR in 2005, 196th! in putting. How unbelievable is that stat?

[xender]

Drive for show, putt for dough? nahhhhhhhhh... You really need both to shoot well. Drive for setup and putt for dough yes!!!!