Not sure I understand the hybrid "debate"

[lorenzoinoc]

the hybrid will do as much as the three iron will, except maybe the same swing will get a higher ball with a hybrid...

Does your voice get higher, too?

[daveperk]

That's why it's called a "cut shot".

Edit-- this is in response to my comment about higher ball flight with a gay hybrid, and Lorenzo's response question --

"Does your voice get higher, too?"

Now that you have the context and can see the castration humor inherent in my choice of remark, please return to your homes. THere's nothing to see here. Move along.

[daveperk]

Awesome dave, great shot man. I hope to one day learn to slice my hybrids like that.

You should learn to hit EVERY shot the way I do, bj. and I'm glad to see you understand that. :-)

[Kiwi Player]

I am about to have a serious moment here, in spite of whether this was a post intended to start more flamng or not.

I too, can honestly say I prefer hybrids to long irons. If I am standing on a shortish par 4 and absolutely HAVE to hit the fairway, I would be much more confident with a 3 iron in my hand than a hybrid. I know they are supposed to go straight, but every hybrid I've ever seen sits with a closed clubface and seems to have a draw bias. The times I have hit other peoples hybrids I have invariably had trouble keeping it from going left. Long irons go plenty far enough for me, and can be worked enough to be used strategically on short holes to keep the trouble completely out of play. Having to aim straight down the middle whilst having to worry about a big pull left is not what I would call strategic golf. Also, as I've previously said I have found a 5 wood to be much more versatile for long approaches into greens. 5 woods are workable, cut through rough better, and get a much higher and softer landing shots IMO.

These two things are the real reasons I would never use a hybrid.

But I also agree with everything Omen and BJ say about the gayness of hybrids too.

Hacker, I know you said you were being serious so I am assuming this is a typo:

I too, can honestly say I prefer hybrids to long irons.

Concerned
Kiwi

[Kiwi Player]

Sorry Kiwi, I thought it might have been too complicated for you. I will try to keep things more simple from now on.

Ok Hacker I’ll try to put it in simple terms that a ‘Real Man’ can understand.

Let’s say a 'real man' wants to play something a little more forgiving than blades in the long to mid irons. We’ll use your beloved grain flow forged Mizuno for this example. He wouldn’t consider a hybrid but he might consider a deep cavity, wide soled game improvement iron for the 3-4 irons. Something that will help him get the ball in the air and hit it straight, like say the MX-20. He will then want a small workable players cavity for the 5-7 irons. Something like say, the MP-60. Then for his scoring clubs he might go with a blade for maximum playability, Let’s say the MP-32.

So his bag would look pretty sweet, something like this:

Driver
3 wood
5 wood (or 2 iron)
3-4 MX-20 (shovels)
5-7 MP-60 (players cavity)
8-PW MP-32 (blade)
Wedges
Putter

Now just because he is using a forgiving oversized cavity backed shovel for extra forgiveness in the long irons (3-4) doesn’t mean he would want to give up all that playability and workability in his mid irons (5-7) and he wouldn’t need it in the short irons (8-PW) because they are much easier to hit anyway. Are you starting to get my drift?

I mean honestly would Omen2 or BJ Drivers want to swap the MX-20 8 iron shovel for the MP-32 8 iron?

No I didn't think so either.

Only a complete novice, a woman or a hacker would want forgiving oversized cavity back shovels like the MX-20’s throughout the entire set - right?

The same goes for hybrids. The real players on this board might use a hybrid to replace their 2-3 or 4 irons but wouldn’t want to replace their 5 iron-PW.

So there you go I can’t be any clearer than that.

Now do you get it?

[dorkman53]

What seems to get lost in all of the noise about long irons vs. hybrids is the simple issue of comparability. Many hybrids have either closed faces, heel weighted heads, or relatively lightweight and/or soft shafts. All of these factors will favor a left/pulled/hooked shot. However, if one takes the trouble to do a bit of research (difficult task in this era) to find square faced, neutrally weighted heads, and preferably a steel shaft or a "control" heavier, less tip flexible shaft, hybrids can still provide the extra forgiveness of their inherently higher MOI design without the leftward bias so many people dislike. My guess is that the vast majority of better players will use steel shafts in their irons, but a large majority of people who play hybrids use a lighter weight graphite shaft. The scales are automatically biased toward control with long irons, and longer distances and higher trajectory with long irons. Using steel shafts or a heavier and/or firmer shaft in hybrids will make the comparison more equitable.

This said, long iron shafts are usually slightly shorter than shafts for a comparably lofted hybrid, so that is a plus for the long irons in terms of control, for some people.

I really don't care what people choose to play, but I do grow weary of the boringly predictable, ceaseless drumbeat of ignorant ranting about a subject that some people clearly don't understand. On one hand, they say, "Oh, I'm just trolling and flaming," but the body language and passion clearly indicates that they truly believe what they are saying. Thus, the misguided evangelical zeal for promoting clubs that most people can't hit very well. The mentality seems to be, "I have learned to hit these difficult clubs, so I am going to harass everyone else that doesn't conform to my opinion of what should be done." Or perhaps the attitude is, "Hey everybody, look at me. Look what I have in my bag. Look what I can do. Nyah, nyah..."

I really don't buy into the idea that they are simply trolling and flaming. I think there is actually a strong element of the "true believer" involved, but they can't support their position of "long irons for everybody" with logic, so they resort to name calling and other immature behavior.

Think about it. If someone says, "I play long irons because I hit them better than hybrids," how is that different from somebody saying, "I hit hybrids because I hit them better than long irons?" People will gravitate toward what gives them better results. I have a friend who is a high single digit indexer and a member of a pretty exclusive private club some distance from where I live. We get together once or twice a year to play. A year ago, he told me that he preferred his long irons to hybrids because he felt his results were better. Fine. No argument from me. When I played with him again several weeks ago, he was playing hybrids. I never brought up the subject. It was just obvious that he had made a choice that for now he'll go a different route. Perhaps he'll go back to his long irons, perhaps not. It is really no big deal at all; just personal preference.

Oh well, all of this banter has brought this obscure little board a bit more activity than was seen before all of this "I play this and you must also play what I play or you're gay and a pu$$y" nonsense got started, if that is any consolation to anybody except Francis.

[Not a hacker]

Hacker, I know you said you were being serious so I am assuming this is a typo:



Concerned
Kiwi

Definitely a typo. As the rest of the post explained, the long iron is the way to go for me.

[Not a hacker]

Ok Hacker I’ll try to put it in simple terms that a ‘Real Man’ can understand.

Let’s say a 'real man' wants to play something a little more forgiving than blades in the long to mid irons. We’ll use your beloved grain flow forged Mizuno for this example. He wouldn’t consider a hybrid but he might consider a deep cavity, wide soled game improvement iron for the 3-4 irons. Something that will help him get the ball in the air and hit it straight, like say the MX-20. He will then want a small workable players cavity for the 5-7 irons. Something like say, the MP-60. Then for his scoring clubs he might go with a blade for maximum playability, Let’s say the MP-32.

So his bag would look pretty sweet, something like this:

Driver
3 wood
5 wood (or 2 iron)
3-4 MX-20 (shovels)
5-7 MP-60 (players cavity)
8-PW MP-32 (blade)
Wedges
Putter

Now just because he is using a forgiving oversized cavity backed shovel for extra forgiveness in the long irons (3-4) doesn’t mean he would want to give up all that playability and workability in his mid irons (5-7) and he wouldn’t need it in the short irons (8-PW) because they are much easier to hit anyway. Are you starting to get my drift?

I mean honestly would Omen2 or BJ Drivers want to swap the MX-20 8 iron shovel for the MP-32 8 iron?

No I didn't think so either.

Only a complete novice, a woman or a hacker would want forgiving oversized cavity back shovels like the MX-20’s throughout the entire set - right?

The same goes for hybrids. The real players on this board might use a hybrid to replace their 2-3 or 4 irons but wouldn’t want to replace their 5 iron-PW.

So there you go I can’t be any clearer than that.

Now do you get it?

It's all relative Kiwi. MX20's may be more GI than MP series or titleist blades, but that doesn't make them shovels. The fact that you fail to grasp is that Mizuno grain flow forged are so far ahead of the rest of the hackers brands out there that their mid range models like MX20's are still more of a players club than than the top of the range clubs from crap brands like Ping, Callaway and TM. The MX20 are superior in playability and feel to other brands 'tour' models (Ping I10, Callie X20 Tour, R7TP, Slingshot Tour) which are all cast POS CB shovels with zero feel or playability. Your argument is bit like trying to say that a mid priced ferrari handles like bucket of ****.

So flame away Kiwi, I would keep my MX20's ahead of anything except a forged blade from a quality brand (Mizuno, Titleist, Bridgestone etc).

BTW, what do you play again?

[DavidC41]

I've never seen a problem with rookies using hybrids to mask some of their errors and/or helping them get the hang of the golf swing

[pingman360]

It's all relative Kiwi. MX20's may be more GI than MP series or titleist blades, but that doesn't make them shovels. The fact that you fail to grasp is that Mizuno grain flow forged are so far ahead of the rest of the hackers brands out there that their mid range models like MX20's are still more of a players club than than the top of the range clubs from crap brands like Ping, Callaway and TM. The MX20 are superior in playability and feel to other brands 'tour' models (Ping I10, Callie X20 Tour, R7TP, Slingshot Tour) which are all cast POS CB shovels with zero feel or playability. Your argument is bit like trying to say that a mid priced ferrari handles like bucket of ****.

So flame away Kiwi, I would keep my MX20's ahead of anything except a forged blade from a quality brand (Mizuno, Titleist, Bridgestone etc).

BTW, what do you play again?

bottom line if you hit it in the middle there is no difference in feel...

[dorkman53]

I've never seen a problem with rookies using hybrids to mask some of their errors and/or helping them get the hang of the golf swing

No, certainly not without lessons. I can't say I've seen ANYBODY get the hang of a golf swing without some form of instruction, whether formal lessons or other means of teaching. It's just not that intuitive of a skill.

[Omen2]

masking a swing fault helps to ingrain it... dont mask you dont want anything positive ever associated with a poor swing...

dorkmans cant seem to grasp that concept....

look if you want forgiveness go to church.

Omen

[Horseballs]

No, certainly not without lessons. I can't say I've seen ANYBODY get the hang of a golf swing without some form of instruction, whether formal lessons or other means of teaching. It's just not that intuitive of a skill.

This is blatantly incorrect. Lessons didn't exist 60 years ago. Half the players on the Champions Tour don't receive instruction.

[poe4soul]

Jack Nicklaus took lessons. He began taking lessons from Jack Grout at age 10? That would be 1950 or about 60 years ago. Maybe you ought to rethink your approach. The two best golfers in the world took lessons.

Most pro's of yesteryear were son's of head pro's, sons of touring pro's, sons of greens keepers, or golf club brats. There were some exceptions like Player but I would guess most got lessons they just didn't have to pay for it...

My father is a good golfer and qualifies for that era. He did not take lessons growing up but he caddied all the time and got informal lessons from the the better players he caddied for. Is that a lesson?

[daveperk]

This is blatantly incorrect. Lessons didn't exist 60 years ago. Half the players on the Champions Tour don't receive instruction.

I'm with you, Horseballs... I never had a lesson, never had a good player advise me on elements of swing, never even listened in on a lesson for somebody ELSE.

I did read "Golf My Way" by Jack, "Five Lessons" by Hogan, etc. But almost everything I learned about golf I learned by swinging a club.

Got myself down to a 3 handicap at one point in life, playing lots of different courses rather than a 'home course' that I know every inch of...

Took up the game at 15 out of boredom.. dad kept going to a driving range and I went with him and picked up a club... fell in love with it.. I'm a lefty but I play right handed cuz those were the only clubs around. Dad wasn't good enough to teach it, and I wouldn't have listened to him anyways. :-)

Perhaps David C can't see anyone getting the hang of golf without lessons because he's from this younger generation. But I'm almost 50, and that's the way we did it back then.

At 18 I walked onto a junior college team and made it... it was the same JC that Chad Campbell came from in west Texas... but back when I was on it, the team was considerably easier to get onto! :-)

Golf is not intuitive like swinging a baseball bat, but once you get the hang of how it works, it BECOMES intuitive.. you can tell yourself slow down, swing higher or lower, wider or narrower, transfer weight, etc. and see the results.

And if you can watch Allen Doyle or Chi Chi or any number of truly wierd golf swings and say they're modeled on anyone or any tips or teaching... you're a couple of wedges short of a full sack :-)

Self taught was once the norm. There's a reason all the young folks swing almost exactly the same... they're all being taught the same stuff by the same guys, and by disciples of those guys...

[Horseballs]

Jack Nicklaus took lessons. He began taking lessons from Jack Grout at age 10? That would be 1950 or about 60 years ago. Maybe you ought to rethink your approach. The two best golfers in the world took lessons.

Most pro's of yesteryear were son's of head pro's, sons of touring pro's, sons of greens keepers, or golf club brats. There were some exceptions like Player but I would guess most got lessons they just didn't have to pay for it...

My father is a good golfer and qualifies for that era. He did not take lessons growing up but he caddied all the time and got informal lessons from the the better players he caddied for. Is that a lesson?

Poe, I'm disputing dorkman's claim of "I can't say I've seen ANYBODY get the hang of a golf swing without some form of instruction, whether formal lessons or other means of teaching. It's just not that intuitive of a skill." I have seen SEVERAL people getting the hang of a golf swing without instruction, me included. Trial and error is a viable way to learn golf. Golf becomes intuitive once you've learned the fundamentals (either by a teacher, or beating them out of the dirt).
I play golf to have fun, and I have no aspirations of making a living at it (besides, I'm way too old with too many responsibilities). I take a great deal of pride knowing that my game is my own. If I ever reach the point where I think I cannot improve on my own, or somehow fall into an extra 10 hours per week of spare time (impossible), I'd consider lessons. Until then, I'll continue to get the hang of golf using my own intuition.

[poe4soul]

That's fine and I applaud you for your accomplishments.

I was responding to your claim that no one took lessons 60 years ago. This is not correct. Maybe Jack would still have been the great success he was if figured his swing out on his own. Maybe, Maybe not.

There are many things in life you can learn without lessons but lessons will give you an advantage especially at the beginning. This is why we go to school and have on the job training, etc.

Honestly, money aside, time aside, do you think lessons would have benefited you when you started the game? I'm not saying take away your self study or your own approach but having someone to watch your swing and give you good quality feedback on fundamentals like grip, stance, etc.

[Horseballs]

That's fine and I applaud you for your accomplishments.

I was responding to your claim that no one took lessons 60 years ago. This is not correct. Maybe Jack would still have been the great success he was if figured his swing out on his own. Maybe, Maybe not.

There are many things in life you can learn without lessons but lessons will give you an advantage especially at the beginning. This is why we go to school and have on the job training, etc.

Honestly, money aside, time aside, do you think lessons would have benefited you when you started the game? I'm not saying take away your self study or your own approach but having someone to watch your swing and give you good quality feedback on fundamentals like grip, stance, etc.

I don't feel like arguing the whole lesson/non-lesson thing again. Lessons are fine and dandy, but not the only way to get something done. That is my only point of contention. I find it to be poor form to tell every Tom, Dick and Harry to take a lesson every time his swing is out of form. That's not what you're advocating, but there are uncountable examples where this is the case.

[dorkman53]

Even if someone doesn't take formal lessons, they certainly observe quality players and their swings, and can read books and listen to tips from experienced players. Obviously, some of the great golfers of yesteryear were able to groove a mechanically questionable swing simply because they had exceptional athletic skills and were good observers of cause and effect when they tinkered with their swing. If you practice a bad swing long enough, it can become consistent and reproduceable, but not as dependable as a mechanically good swing.
Perhaps I overstated the case, but with qualification would restate the premise: FEW people will develop a good swing without some form of instruction from an experienced person, professional instructor or not. It's not impossible to learn the game without instruction, but it makes it more difficult.
Personally, I never had any instruction until several years ago. I developed a sort of "Natural Golf" type grip and swing, and ground it in to my brain through endless practice. However, since I've had lessons, my swing is simpler, holds up much better under pressure, and my scoring average has dropped about 5-6 strokes/round. I mis-taught myself many "skills" that had to be unlearned when I learned a simpler, more dependable swing.
I am an enthusiastic believer in getting instruction early in the course of playing the game, as a result of my own experience.

It obviously can't be proved or disproved, but I suspect that some of the older guys with the funky swings would probably have been even greater if they had learned a better swing early in their development. Just my opinion, for what it is or isn't worth....

[poe4soul]

So do you think you could have been better if you had access to good quality instruction?

Why is golf in your minds different than other sports like baseball, football, etc? Each of these sports have coaches. Most at the high school level are accomplished athletes who competed at the collegiate level. Most now use video and other tools like golf instructors as a training aid. I don't understand the difference in the approach for golf.

I wrestled and played soccer through high school. Each had intensive training. Many hours of instruction and practice to perfect . The instruction included skills, technique, strategy, endurance, etc. I also played golf. Golf lacked this approach. I know my skill level would have been higher if the same approach was given to golf.

I personally gave up the sport for 17 years and started back a few years ago. I also was self taught. I was given some lessons and have taken a modest amount over the past three years of about 5 lessons a year. My skill and understanding of the golf swing has improved dramatically because of the lessons. I can't even imagine where I would be if I hadn't be given the lessons.

[dorkman53]

On the matter of hybrids hiding swing flaws, I can recall from my own experience playing the Taylormade Rescue Mids (not the TP version) reasonably "well" before I began taking lessons. After I learned a more mechanically sound grip, setup, and swing, all of a sudden I went left, left, and more left with the TM's. Yes, the TM's were hiding a swing flaw. I then switched to the Hogan CFT hybrids which are neutrally weighted and square faced, and could hit hybrids straight again, since the swing flaw wasn't being hidden.

Omen, FYI, Ifor the past couple of years I've been playing the MIZUNO MP UX-2 hybrids; NOT the MX type. I'm sure you would object to the term, but they would qualify as "player's hybrids," more typical of what better players and/or professionals would use, should they sink to the depths of playing these cheating/gay/pu$$y clubs. They are also neutrally weighted, square faced, and minimal offset. They certainly don't hide any swing flaws.

[Omen2]

players hybrid.... ROFLMMFAO.... what a paradox...

can any of you believe how many responses this thread has drummed up... impressive.

Omen

[dorkman53]

players hybrid.... ROFLMMFAO.... what a paradox...

can any of you believe how many responses this thread has drummed up... impressive.

Omen

Yeah, something like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence." I'd use the term "oxymoron" but I don't want you to think I was calling you an unflattering name......

[neverman]

Even with my TP version from Taylor Made the best I can do with the included weights is get it to nuetral bias. It has the ability to be weighted for draw bias but no "fade" option... I wish it did because there are times when I jump on it I get a pull result. No hooks really but certainly an over the top pull. Yes, it's my fault not the clubs. It has a nice shaft in it (Diamana), nice appearance and is pretty easy to hit from a variety of lies. It's a great club really.

I still take a ribbing from my normal foursome. So what? It's about results for me, I don't practice much if at all and I play to win. Always and in everything. It's hard to win consistently without dedicated practice... luckily the guys I play with don't practice much either or I'd have to step it up.

If I'm having an off-day I'll choke down on my Hybrid and noot pull my 3i or 4i. if I'm on and my form is good I'll pull my irons out and use the Hybrid like a 5wood. It really gives me far more options than ot having the club in my bag or going with yet another wedge. When I carried a 5wood I almost always used the 3wood instead. It was dead weight in my bag so i made a decision. It helps that I picked it up before a golf trip coming off my winter slumber. It really saved me that 1st trip.

Yeah, I'm a softie.

[lorenzoinoc]

I don't practice much if at all and I play to win.

Hey, HB, sounds kind of like the approach the Bengals use. Except, of course, the part about playing to win.

[Omen2]

what kind of unmyelinated moron did you call me? an oxy one? huh?

i cant be flattered if i cant define the word.

it does sound unequivocally like the highest paid compliment i may well ever recieve...

is this the case?

Omen


... player's hybrid... that's so amusing...

[daveperk]

So do you think you could have been better if you had access to good quality instruction? .

Me? Heck no.

:-)

I don't have the MIND for golf. I"m a premiere self doubter, a coward, a man of shaky hands with a fear that everyone is looking at me and seeing LOSER on my forehead.

If I get a one stroke lead, even on the first hole, I follow it with three doubles.

And heaven help me if I'm looking at the lead on the last tee. No hope of finding that drive.

Really, I had a natural talent for this game and I've done all I can do with it. I know how to swing the club. My mind has all along kept me from ever going to scratch, and now I'm getting old and fat and diabetic and will probably never get rid of the shaky hands thing.

I walked onto my junior college team, shot 75 every day in practice, and when it was time for a tournament I would shoot 85.

Mind like jello. the Anti-Tiger. :-)

[Kiwi Player]

I've never seen a problem with rookies using hybrids to mask some of their errors and/or helping them get the hang of the golf swing

Yeah but most players on the PGA Tour now carry one. Do you think those guys are still getting the hang of the golf swing?

P.S. I'll pre-empt the inevitable response from BJ, Hacker and Omen:

"But Tiger the number 1 player in the world doesn't use one!"

[Kiwi Player]

BTW, what do you play again?

Maxfli forged blades.

[frankdmann]

Yeah, something like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence." I'd use the term "oxymoron" but I don't want you to think I was calling you an unflattering name......

HEY NOW!

I'm in the military and I have to say.....

that I completely agree with your statement.

[Not a hacker]

Maxfli forged blades.

Real mans clubs, but how old are they. Maxfli hasn't made forged blades for years.

[Kiwi Player]

Real mans clubs, but how old are they. Maxfli hasn't made forged blades for years.

Well Hacker, I have to give you credit. You, Omen and BJ have convinced me to ditch my 3 month old R7 TP's and go back to my 20 year old Maxfli blades.

I'll send a photo for BJ!

P.s. I'm also ditching my hybrid and titanium driver and going back to my Slazenger steel shafted persimmon 2 wood.

[dorkman53]

Well Hacker, I have to give you credit. You, Omen and BJ have convinced me to ditch my 3 month old R7 TP's and go back to my 20 year old Maxfli blades.

I'll send a photo for BJ!

P.s. I'm also ditching my hybrid and titanium driver and going back to my Slazenger steel shafted persimmon 2 wood.

I'm going back to my Wilson Cary Middlecoff set of persimmon woods and blade type irons I got from my parents when I was in 5th grade back when dinosaurs roamed the earth......Now THOSE are real MAN'S clubs!!!!!

[Omen2]

I'm going back to my Wilson Cary Middlecoff set of persimmon woods and blade type irons I got from my parents when I was in 5th grade back when dinosaurs roamed the earth......Now THOSE are real MAN'S clubs!!!!!

what happened you stumble upon a 14 year old girl hitting blades past you and she called you a BIT.CH.... lol... that'll learn ya....

kiwi i am glad to see that your mangina has inverted itself and there is a shred of masculinity in you. now get those maxfli's back into action...

everyone knows that there hasn't been "REAL" changes in iron technology that all the considerably measureable difference is in the golf ball itself.... Irons are irons... they sold you on the idea that you are a sad pathetic POS and that you should play sad pathetic POS stuff... and you bought it... its part of the commodity fetish that is American.... so for once have a spine and a brain: vote republican play real golf clubs.... all will be made whole.

O

[dorkman53]

what happened you stumble upon a 14 year old girl hitting blades past you and she called you a BIT.CH.... lol... that'll learn ya....

kiwi i am glad to see that your mangina has inverted itself and there is a shred of masculinity in you. now get those maxfli's back into action...

everyone knows that there hasn't been "REAL" changes in iron technology that all the considerably measureable difference is in the golf ball itself.... Irons are irons... they sold you on the idea that you are a sad pathetic POS and that you should play sad pathetic POS stuff... and you bought it... its part of the commodity fetish that is American.... so for once have a spine and a brain: vote republican play real golf clubs.... all will be made whole.

O

I'm not sure quite what you mean, but if you had the impression that Cary Middlecoff was a girl, you are mistaken. He was a relatively big name guy in the late 1940's through the mid 1950's. He was already a has been by the time my folks got me those clubs for my birthday in the early/mid 1960's. (Note; he had won the Masters and US Open before Tiger or Phil were born. They actually played golf back then....)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary_Middlecoff