Torque as related to shafts...

[Lord Helmet]

What would be the difference & similarities in these driver shafts:

1. low torque - high kick

2. mid torque - high kick

Club is a Callaway X460tour driver.

What are the similarities and differences? Would they feel different? Play different?

Thanks in advance.

[daveperk]

Lyle would probably know best, but seems to me from reading stuff that stiffer, higher kick and lower torque are all characteristics of shafts that need to be swung fast to be of maximum use.

One that twists more would be like one whose tip is more active... it would require a certain speed to deliver max impact, and swinging faster than that would cause it to be less under control.

But of course, if you get one that has too much resistance to twisting, you could be robbing yourself of extra power at your particular swing speed.

So torque is similar to stiffness and the location of the kickpoint in that they all should be chosen to fit your swing speed and preferred ball flight.

The words of a pure amateur who reads a lot. :-)

[LyleG]

Torque in modern shaft design is nothing more than a feel parameter. A shaft with 3* of torque will play no differently than a shaft with 5* of torque all other things being equal. The shaft with 5* will feel slightly softer, that is all.

Kick points/bend points is simply the middle of the shafts apex when it is placed under load. A high kick point shaft will bend higher up (towards the grip end) than a mid bend or low bend point shaft. Again the difference in these is minimal and will account for no more than 1*-2* of effective loft at impact.

Overall flex profile (the shafts relative stiffness) and weight are far more important thing to worry about from a fitting perspective.

[daveperk]

Torque in modern shaft design is nothing more than a feel parameter. A shaft with 3* of torque will play no differently than a shaft with 5* of torque all other things being equal. The shaft with 5* will feel slightly softer, that is all.

Kick points/bend points is simply the middle of the shafts apex when it is placed under load. A high kick point shaft will bend higher up (towards the grip end) than a mid bend or low bend point shaft. Again the difference in these is minimal and will account for no more than 1*-2* of effective loft at impact.

Overall flex profile (the shafts relative stiffness) and weight are far more important thing to worry about from a fitting perspective.

yeah but... :-)

Twisting deflection happens because the clubhead isn't attached to the shaft at its center of gravity and mass, right? so if it deflects more easily in the twist parameter, it should return to square for a slower speed, and if it has a higher resistance to twisting, it should return to square with a faster swing speed.. right?

Torque and flex combine to be the full 3 dimensional shaft deflection under the full load of the swing. I would have thought both parameters had some influence on the result.

I'm just sayin'.... :-)

[LyleG]

Dave,

This was true when graphite shafts were first introduced to the market and had torque values in the neighborhood of 12 to 20*.
Modern graphite shafts with torque values under 5* will have next to no twist at all in them when swung by a player. You simply cant swing them hard enough to cause enough twist to even begin to affect face position at impact. Torque is more about advertising now to shaft manufacturers than anything else, it was the shaft "buzz word" a few years back and is imo the most misunderstood term in shaft discussion. It really could be eliminated from shaft specs and everyone would be better off.

[daveperk]

NOW I understand.

It's been eliminated, for practical purposes, as a variable, by better construction.

Gawd I hate marketing.

[The Purist]

Lyle, I may be wrong, but weren't you the one creaming your pants over the Creation 80 a few months ago? Something in the design that allowed it to launch high with low spin. What shaft trait creates that kind of launch?

You raved about the distance and accuracy of the Creation. I noticed you're not playing it now. What is your opinion on the shaft now that its been out a while?

[LyleG]

I still love the Creation shaft, just a little too stiff for me on days I am not swinging well.

[golfaholic]

I still love the Creation shaft, just a little too stiff for me on days I am not swinging well.

What you mean like..everyday?

You're a **** for money.

[Not a hacker]

Lyle,

Why is it that I find shafts with low torque are more stable through impact. Is it because the lower torque shafts (grafalloy Blue in particular) tend to be stiffer and have stiffer tips and higher kick points?

I'm interested because if that's the case I will ignore torque from now on and just look for flex, tip stiffness and bend point.

[LyleG]

Lyle,

Why is it that I find shafts with low torque are more stable through impact. Is it because the lower torque shafts (grafalloy Blue in particular) tend to be stiffer and have stiffer tips and higher kick points?

We have a winner.

[bjdrivers]

Same for me. On most regular flex shafts I have a more penetrating fade trajactory off the driver. I have a tendency to balloon my drives, so I've been using a lower loft. After experimenting with the 905S at the range (more shallow head and deep faced) with a variety of shafts, the proforce V2 in stiff gave me the best trajectory. The regular was a hook machine maybe due to the lower torque and higher kickpoint? dunno, but this combo worked out great with a 9.5 loft.

[pingman360]

Same for me. On most regular flex shafts I have a more penetrating fade trajactory off the driver. I have a tendency to balloon my drives, so I've been using a lower loft. After experimenting with the 905S at the range (more shallow head and deep faced) with a variety of shafts, the proforce V2 in stiff gave me the best trajectory. The regular was a hook machine maybe due to the lower torque and higher kickpoint? dunno, but this combo worked out great with a 9.5 loft.

how do you have a more penetrating flight with a R flex than with a stiff??? i could understand if you call a snap-hook penetrating... but playing a weaker flex should cause a high and ballooning shot... right???

[bjdrivers]

how do you have a more penetrating flight with a R flex than with a stiff??? i could understand if you call a snap-hook penetrating... but playing a weaker flex should cause a high and ballooning shot... right???

sorry i meant stiff, not reg.

[Not a hacker]

We have a winner.

Thanx Lyle. To save me having to swap out the shaft on every driver I ever get, what other shafts are in the same range as the Graf Blue and the Proforce V2 for stability through impact?

[LyleG]

Thanx Lyle. To save me having to swap out the shaft on every driver I ever get, what other shafts are in the same range as the Graf Blue and the Proforce V2 for stability through impact?

There is the best of them all the Accuflex Evolution. Most stable shaft on the market bar none.

[Not a hacker]

There is the best of them all the Accuflex Evolution. Most stable shaft on the market bar none.

Haven't seen them over here yet but will keep my eye out. In the past I've picked up top shafts cheap after wannabe's without the swing speed get shafts they can't hit and swap them out.

[LyleG]

Where are you?

[The Purist]

Where women glow and men plunder.

[lorenzoinoc]

Where women glow and men plunder.

Wasn't the lyric chunder?

[The Purist]

where beer does flow and men chunder

[lorenzoinoc]

where beer does flow and men chunder

Ah, so different verse. They play it on Sirius every now and then. We could have worked that into the Edgy sand wedge thread.

[The Purist]

Have you ever listened to the Jason Ellis show on the Faction? That's one funny Aussie.

I love Sirius, but they could use a golf channel.

[Not a hacker]

Where are you?

It's a bit of a backwater here when it comes to equipment. All the shops hang on to the old stuff and try to flog it off as being current. Believe it or not the NV 65S is still a popular shaft over here. I don't get out much any more to go to the amatuer tournaments, but at club level I've definitely never heard of or seen any of the shafts you guys talk about.

[lorenzoinoc]

Have you ever listened to the Jason Ellis show on the Faction? That's one funny Aussie.

I love Sirius, but they could use a golf channel.

No, I haven't I'll have to check it out. If the merger with XM goes through, at some point we'll probably be able to get golf.

[Not a hacker]

Ah, so different verse. They play it on Sirius every now and then. We could have worked that into the Edgy sand wedge thread.

Iwas just about to reply that the men chunder when they see a Lovett sand wedge but you were right on the ball.

[lorenzoinoc]

Iwas just about to reply that the men chunder when they see a Lovett sand wedge but you were right on the ball.

We'll file it away for another day.