Is it really all Tiger?

[Not a hacker]

I know this is a bit of a chicken or the egg question but is Tiger so great because the rest of the tour is a bunch of gutless, jellybacked, sissy, faggot, coksukking chokes (especially Garcia and moobs) or is the rest of the tour a bunch of gutless, jellybacked, sissy, faggot, coksukking chokes becasue Tiger is so great?

Personally I think it's a bit of both. Tiger is definitely the real deal, but he gets alot of help from the rest of the field. Sure Tiger is a golfing bully who crushes the spirit of anyone he is grouped with, but would he have been able to do that to guys like Nicklaus, Watson, Player, Trevino or Seve? Will Tigers records of bullying inferior golfers stand up as well as Micklaus record of achievement against bona fide golfing greats? Personally I think it will, but it's a shame for Tiger that he will probably never be put to the test consistently or have to fend off any legitimate challengers to his world number one status. I think Tiger will beat Jacks records, then retire early from boredom due to lack of competition. He must get sick of seeing oppnents roll over on their back on the first tee and wait for him to walk over and cock his leg and piss all over them.

[bjdrivers]

tiger is to the pga tour what that phucking over the hill wanker better known as kenny perry is to the schmucks who barely keep their tour card each year. a bully.

i've said it before & i'll say it again. rory mcilroy is my boy. he's the only stud alive that can challenge tiger, he just needs to get some experience under his belt.

of course john daly & charlie hoffman can both beat tiger at any given moment, but rory is the man that will challenge his #1 ranking in the future.

as for phil & sergio, one will always have to hit a tee ball on #18, & the other will always have to putt, so you can count those 2 chops out.

[Not a hacker]

Another KP threadjack. Nicely done. i was thinking of comparing Tigers bullying of the real tour to KP but assumed you would bring it up soon enough.

On the subject of KP, I note is getting nearer and nearer to the top of the leaderboard in real events. It's only a matter of time before he oversteps the mark and gets grouped with Tiger in the last pairing on Sunday. Hopefully it will be in a major so Kenny's public dismembering will get maximum exposure. But then again he has to actually start playing in majors first.

[lorenzoinoc]

Wouldn't mind seeing Anthony Kim or Ogilvy taking on Tiger in the final round, when they're playing well.

[FreakOfNature]

Whoever steps up - I feel it'll have to be a younger guy who hasn't had the misfortune of being repeatedly bludgeoned tournament after tournament by Tiger. They need to be oblivious enough to the reality of the situation to just play fearless and not give Tiger any respect. That's how someone who has the game to hang with Tiger will beat him. Tiger is a tough nut to crack - but he's human and the right kind of guy could take him off his game.



FON

[Not a hacker]

I think Tiger is an impossible nut to crack consistently and could only be taken off his game by greenskeepers (as has been seen at US and British Opens in the past), but I agree if a fearless youngster comes along and gave it everything, the rub of the green will occassionally go against Tiger and he could be beaten. But as has been pointed out, the usual suspects have been bludgeoned too often and are not capable of putting themselves in a position where the rub of the green would be the deciding factor.

[lorenzoinoc]

Well, we know Sean O'Hair ain't the guy. It would probably take someone with arms thicker than toothpicks. O'Hair would have to do curls for a couple of months to approach the arm diameter of a 9 year old girl.

[Not a hacker]

So arms are a pre requisite huh?

That counts Omen and Joel out too.

[lorenzoinoc]

O'Hair better hope it won't be unseasonably cold at the Masters or he could end up being used as kindling in the Butler Cabin.

[FreakOfNature]

Sean O`Hair makes Tiger look like Lou Ferrigno.



FON

[Not a hacker]

O'Hair sounded like he did a pretty good Sergio impression on 16, splashing it in the water from the middle of the fairway. CHOKE!

[LyleG]

No one is going to step up. When you get $700,000 for finishing second it gets real hard to give a sh*t.

[bjdrivers]

obviously o'hair wasn't custom fit for his shovels by prostatus, or this would have been a different outcome. in fact, o'hair would have been wise to just dump that whole taylormade bag full of pos cast-iron scrap metal into the water right behind his ball. if you're going to get your arse kicked on sunday, at least go out like a man by playing blades, not some mass-produced oversize r7 gardening tools.

it will take a real man who plays blades like john daly, charlie hoffman, or rory mcilroy to take down the world's #1. not some chopping psued that uses training wheels to get around the course.

[bjdrivers]

It's only a matter of time before he oversteps the mark and gets grouped with Tiger in the last pairing on Sunday.

you know as well as i do that's never going to happen. kp constantly monitors the leaderboard on the few times he's actually playing in a decent tournament. if tiger or any other top 10 player is setting themselves up for the final pairing on sunday, you can rest assured kp will "mysteriously" 3-jack the last 3 or 4 greens to get lost back into the mix. he's a chopping pseud, but he's not stupid.

[collegegolfer]

It is partly both. Tiger makes others melt into 4 year olds with a plastic Mickey Mouse set. But, he is so clutch it's tough to get an edge on him. You can see it almost every time he's in the final pairing. If he makes a birdie the others start thinking "oh no" because they know what he CAN do. That's half of why he's great...he can unleash psychological warfare just by being there. The problem isn't that they won't play hard because they get $700,000 for placing second (AIG bonuses are bad???) but because they want first and want to beat Tiger so badly they take themselves, mentally and physically, out of their own game. We need more older players who just enjoy playing and are thankful for being there...not people who want to unseat him. The players we've never heard of will be the ones to beat Tiger, not the players who feel they have something to gain by beating him. He's too intimidating. But look at Rocco last year. He was happy to be there and was more immune to the psychological factor. The media plays into Tiger winning more by holding him on a pedestal, which he should be, but they are helping keep him there because he IS why they actually make money on Tour events now.

[daveperkins]

When Tiger made that bogey on 17, a hard-bitten competitor would have said "he's got a chink in his armor, now's my chance!"

but Sean O'Hair wasn't that guy. Who is that guy? Nobody, I guess.

I wonder what Arnie thinks about Tiger, birdie to win on 18 what is it, three years in a row now?...

[dorkman53]

I always find it both pathetic and amusing that a bunch of rank amateurs on a golf board sit in judgment of professional golfers who demonstrate their human emotions by getting tight on Sunday when the cameras are in their face, the galleries are large, and millions of people are watching.

[daveperkins]

I always find it both pathetic and amusing that a bunch of rank amateurs on a golf board sit in judgment of professional golfers who demonstrate their human emotions by getting tight on Sunday when the cameras are in their face, the galleries are large, and millions of people are watching.

This is America (at least it is where I'm typing) and I cherish my right to judge those superior to me without any knowledge of the pressure they work with or the skills they bring to the game.

AND I cherish my right to be both pathetic AND amusing.

Internationals, speak out. Don't you have these rights in YOUR country? I know Edgey does.

[collegegolfer]

Dorkman...point taken.

I find it funny they go through exactly what all of us do. The difference is they get nervous in a situation most of us would pass out or throw up in. We all have our nervous points...those of us with more experience take more to get nervous though. We always find it humorous when a 10+capper asks to play in our weekend game and is overly tight and worried because he's worse than we are. And, in an attempt to not embarrass himself (although we really don't care) he totally loses his game because he's focused on us. I still melt, until I gain my composure, when I'm in the lead and having someone gain on me and there is a big audience. But, you have to put your mind in the place of apathy and not care. Literally, if you care one bit you'll collapse. You just have to play. And it's funny on the pro stage to us because they melt just like we do...only it takes Tiger and millions of people and dollars to make them do it.

[dorkman53]

Dorkman...point taken.

I find it funny they go through exactly what all of us do. The difference is they get nervous in a situation most of us would pass out or throw up in. We all have our nervous points...those of us with more experience take more to get nervous though. We always find it humorous when a 10+capper asks to play in our weekend game and is overly tight and worried because he's worse than we are. And, in an attempt to not embarrass himself (although we really don't care) he totally loses his game because he's focused on us. I still melt, until I gain my composure, when I'm in the lead and having someone gain on me and there is a big audience. But, you have to put your mind in the place of apathy and not care. Literally, if you care one bit you'll collapse. You just have to play. And it's funny on the pro stage to us because they melt just like we do...only it takes Tiger and millions of people and dollars to make them do it.

This sort of thing happens in all sorts of sporting activities, but golf seems to really bring it out because of the complexity of the psychomotor action, and the fact that such a small deviation or subconscious correction can wreak such havoc on the results. Plus, golf is a deliberately paced activity that it makes itself highly available for analysis.
Wide receivers drop passes in the end zone. Infielders boot routine ground balls. Highly skilled NBA players miss clutch free throws. We're all human, or at least I think most of us are on this prestigious board........

[bigpun1974]

Tiger Woods = Michael Jordon = Walter Payton = Bob Gibson = Jack Nicklaus = Pele.

All of these guys where the best in their sport and could win on their worst days. When challenged, they elevated their games and went "unconscious"and they where untouchable in competition. As to the men competing against them, it has to be disturbing to put it all together, get the most out you can out of your ability, but know that it is only a matter of time before your opponent steps his game up to a level that you can't reach.

[dorkman53]

Tiger Woods = Michael Jordon = Walter Payton = Bob Gibson = Jack Nicklaus = Pele.

All of these guys where the best in their sport and could win on their worst days. When challenged, they elevated their games and went "unconscious"and they where untouchable in competition. As to the men competing against them, it has to be disturbing to put it all together, get the most out you can out of your ability, but know that it is only a matter of time before your opponent steps his game up to a level that you can't reach.

Yes, but on a planet with several billion people, the fact that there are so few examples like this speaks volumes about what the other 99.999999999999999% encounter. "The exception proves the rule".......

By the way, I was at a tournament several years ago where Tiger himself blocked a shot into the 18th green on Sunday. He had to go for a birdie, because Harrington was already on the green and only had to make par to win. I have watched games where Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, or Kobe Bryant missed the clutch shot that would have won the game. Even Tiger, Jordan, Nicklaus, and others in this elite pantheon still made and make tension induced blunders. They just do it far less often than the rest.

[Pky6471]

IMO , Tiger did NOT win, Sean O'Hair lost because Tiger has as better mental toughness and you don't want him to breath on your neck on the back nine on any Sunday, period

[dorkman53]

IMO , Tiger did NOT win, Sean O'Hair lost because Tiger has as better mental toughness and you don't want him to breath on your neck on the back nine on any Sunday, period

Since he really didn't win, I'd suggest he donate his winnings to this board, divided equally among the regular posters.

By the way, there were only a few other 67's yesterday, and only one 66. Tiger didn't exactly sit back and go through the back door. He earned it. Obviously, had O'Hair even shot even par for the day instead of 3 over, he still would have won. It was a combination of O'Hair's tension and
Tiger putting on the pressure; not simply one or the other.

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/lea...DNPVlraB8ogsUF

[JonT]

As many on this board will attest, if you believe beyond any reasonable doubt that you will win because you are the best, you will. Tiger has that, and the skills beyond any pro out there at this moment in [B]time[B] to do that. Time will be his equalizer as is it is with all of us and the newest phenom with the same thought, but fresher physical skills, will pass him, with respect, but still pass none the less.

[The Purist]

Nice work NAH...What a great final round. I was watching Tiger before he tee'd off on number one and you could tell something big was about to happen. He had that look...I guarantee he was 100% sure that he was going to win even before the first shot was hit. There is no greater drama than sinking a birdie putt on the final hole to cap a huge comeback.

Is it really all Tiger?

I am thinking its probably about 90% Tiger. He may have only shot a 67 (which is great), but he applies a far greater pressure to his opponents than can be seen in his scores. I bet O'Hair felt like he was playing someone that shot a 62. Tiger is constantly putting himself in great positions to score, but he is patient. His opponents will often feel the need to play more aggressively than normal and get themselves in poor positions, and rather than trying to get get 2 shots back at once, Tiger will play it safe and take what his opponent gives him. Even when Tiger is missing shots, he mesmorizes his opponents with his uncanny ability to salvage pars.

They put a stat up before the round started (I don't remember the exact numbers) that showed how Tiger has scored vs his final round playing partners in the final group. I think he has only been outscored like 6 times out of 70+ chances. Pretty much all Tiger has to do to win a tournament is to get himself in the final group by Sunday.

[Tee'd Off]

No one is going to step up. When you get $700,000 for finishing second it gets real hard to give a sh*t.

Spot on! When Tiger wins it is good for the PGA Tour. The purses stay nice and fat. The corperate sponsirships roll in with their plump bank accounts. So when Tiger took Bay Hill every PGA Tour Pro, as well as the golfing industry, breathed a collective sigh of relief. The Tour has gone soft. Tiger is the only Tour player to demonstrate a killer instinct. The rest of the Tour is a bore........

[Kiwi Player]

This is America (at least it is where I'm typing) and I cherish my right to judge those superior to me without any knowledge of the pressure they work with or the skills they bring to the game.

AND I cherish my right to be both pathetic AND amusing.

Internationals, speak out. Don't you have these rights in YOUR country? I know Edgey does.

Of course we do. In OZ & NZ we are famous for the tall poppy syndrome i.e. criticizing, belittling and putting down anyone that dares to be any good at anything. We are brutal on our top sports stars when they fail.

However, unlike yours, our version of freedom of speech gets curtailed when we start publishing pamphlets on how to make homemade bombs, or how to poison someone using common household cleaners etc

[Not a hacker]

Of course we do. In OZ & NZ we are famous for the tall poppy syndrome i.e. criticizing, belittling and putting down anyone that dares to be any good at anything. We are brutal on our top sports stars when they fail.

However, unlike yours, our version of freedom of speech gets curtailed when we start publishing pamphlets on how to make homemade bombs, or how to poison someone using common household cleaners etc

In Oz, radio sports talkshow hosts would have no material if it wasn't for Norman. Some dj's have made a career out of discussing his chokes. Belittling the Shark for choking is almost a national pass time. It's a funny situation. orman is the most loved and revered, but at the same time most derided and ridiculed, sportsperson in the country. The fact is in Australia we always barrack for the underdog and get behind loveable losers. Like the Shark.

As for what BigPun said, the only sportsman who I think is on par with Tiger in their respective sport was Jordan. Like Tiger, Jordan would be a solid player for the first three quarters of a game without having particularly outstanding stats. But come crunch time when the game was on the line, he lifted and made the shots he needed to make to win the game. He could singlehandedly lift his team to a win just from being on court. He knew he was going to make the plays, and more importantly his opponents knew that he was going to make them.

[Kiwi Player]

In Oz, radio sports talkshow hosts would have no material if it wasn't for Norman. Some dj's have made a career out of discussing his chokes. Belittling the Shark for choking is almost a national pass time. It's a funny situation. orman is the most loved and revered, but at the same time most derided and ridiculed, sportsperson in the country. The fact is in Australia we always barrack for the underdog and get behind loveable losers. Like the Shark.

As for what BigPun said, the only sportsman who I think is on par with Tiger in their respective sport was Jordan. Like Tiger, Jordan would be a solid player for the first three quarters of a game without having particularly outstanding stats. But come crunch time when the game was on the line, he lifted and made the shots he needed to make to win the game. He could singlehandedly lift his team to a win just from being on court. He knew he was going to make the plays, and more importantly his opponents knew that he was going to make them.

That Olympic Rower that quit halfway through the race back in 04 must have been popular. Weren't your media calling her 'Lay Down Sally'?

[Not a hacker]

That Olympic Rower that quit halfway through the race back in 04 must have been popular. Weren't your media calling her 'Lay Down Sally'?

She's still known as Laydown Sally. If you really want to see how low Aussies can go read the latest stroy about Allenby and his experience with Hecklers at the Australian Open party hole. Apparently they were making references to his mother who at the tme had terminal cancer (has since passed away). I don't claim to know where free speech stops and unjustififed personal attacks start, but those sorts of comments are out of line. Allenby brings aot of it on himself by publicly referring to the party hole crowd as drunken yobbos who have no place on a golf course, and I think a whole gallery cheering his misses and generally giving him a hard time trying to put him off his game is great sport, but I think the heckling should stay tasteful and humourous. What Allenby alleges they said was anything but.

[Omen2]

the problem is that everyone thinks tiger is god. now his reputation as a closer gets him most of his wins... what the hell happened... a choker vs. tiger. 5 strokes ahead... all you have to do is play everyhole for a two putt and who knows maybe you birdie 3 holes minimum. that means tiger would have to shoot 8 under to force a playoff and 9 under to win outright.

how phucking hard is that logic. hitting that ball in the water is inexcusable. he should have played well right and then two putted for his par. gunning for that tight flag with tiger lurking is stupid.

tiger gets a lot of help from the field... not saying he's not damn good but the other chokers are handing it to him...

i hope rory mcilroy does look past the legend of tiger.

Omen, of course it's hard to not be intimidated by a guy playing BLADES

[SoonerBS]

the problem is that everyone thinks tiger is god. now his reputation as a closer gets him most of his wins... what the hell happened... a choker vs. tiger. 5 strokes ahead... all you have to do is play everyhole for a two putt and who knows maybe you birdie 3 holes minimum. that means tiger would have to shoot 8 under to force a playoff and 9 under to win outright.

how phucking hard is that logic. hitting that ball in the water is inexcusable. he should have played well right and then two putted for his par. gunning for that tight flag with tiger lurking is stupid.

tiger gets a lot of help from the field... not saying he's not damn good but the other chokers are handing it to him...

i hope rory mcilroy does look past the legend of tiger.

Omen, of course it's hard to not be intimidated by a guy playing BLADES

Which gets back to what we are discussing -- there a few golfers in history who thrived under pressure, like Tiger, and then there are those who do some of the most stupid **** while bowing to pressure. I'll NEVER forget watching that British Open and seeing the live demise of Jean Van De Velde. That was just absolutely the BIGGEST blowup I have ever seen a golfer commit EVER! Ever since that event, I have come to believe that there are no limits to the size of brain farts a player can make in the name of pressure.

I honestly believe that some day we are going to see a player literally piss down his leg on public TV because of the pressure he is feeling.

[daveperkins]

Of course we do. In OZ & NZ we are famous for the tall poppy syndrome i.e. criticizing, belittling and putting down anyone that dares to be any good at anything. We are brutal on our top sports stars when they fail.

However, unlike yours, our version of freedom of speech gets curtailed when we start publishing pamphlets on how to make homemade bombs, or how to poison someone using common household cleaners etc

Printing pamphlets is so... 20th century. Today, all of our bombmaking and chemical warfare recipes are available on the internet. We know, because the terrorists keep using them. :-)

[collegegolfer]

Van De Velde? How about the guy that hit it off the tent on his last hole? And then hit another stupid shot? And, when putting from 10 feet, you watch thinking, "he could 5 jack this thing...c'mon, c'mon..." I can't remember his name...was it...memory is blanking out.....