How much difference does equipment really make?

**Kiwi Player** · 03-23-2009

There is so much discussion about equipment on this forum that you'd think it was all about what clubs you play. But it begs the question how much difference does equipment really make? Some have suggested in the past that it is as much as 25% but I tend towards the view that it is all about the Indian, not the arrow, and that clubs only account for approx 1-5% of how we play and score. A good player will score well regardless of the clubs in his hands whereas a poor player will hack it up whether he has a $200 set from Walmart or a $3,500 set of Callaways.

Sure I accept that older players or women with slower swing speeds may prefer lighter weight graphite shafts. Maybe a couple of extra fairway woods or hybrids? But in general how much difference do the clubs really make?

After much thought I realised that the only way to find the definitive, conclusive answer to this burning issue would be to conduct a GR Poll.

**edgey** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by Kiwi Player

There is so much discussion about equipment on this forum that you'd think it was all about what clubs you play. But it begs the question how much difference does equipment really make? Some have suggested in the past that it is as much as 25% but I tend towards the view that it is all about the Indian, not the arrow, and that clubs only account for approx 1-5% of how we play and score. A good player will score well regardless of the clubs in his hands whereas a poor player will hack it up whether he has a $200 set from Walmart or a $3,500 set of Callaways.

Sure I accept that older players or women with slower swing speeds may prefer lighter weight graphite shafts. Maybe a couple of extra fairway woods or hybrids? But in general how much difference do the clubs really make?

After much thought I realised that the only way to find the definitive, conclusive answer to this burning issue would be to conduct a GR Poll.

Where is the Poll Kiwi??

Edgey

PS Now added

**oldplayer** · 03-23-2009

Clubs don't make the player, but it would be obvious to state that the correct head and shaft to suit a players skill level will certainly be of benefit.
Of course choosing the correct clubs is largely about practicality, however, I feel the importance of asthetics is underrated. Personally I can not play with what are in my opinion chunky, ugly clubs. Many modern designs, drivers, irons and putters fall into this catagory for me. Most things we use, clothes, cars, furniture etc. we like to work well and be practical, but they must also please the eye. For me golf clubs are no different. This may be slightly off topic but I do thik the choice of clubs is important and does have a big effect on a players game.

**golfaholic** · 03-23-2009

I can shoot 70 with my clubs, and couldn't break 140 with yours.

Then again I'm left handed.

**jamesll9** · 03-23-2009

I was on vacation in Kentucky during the Ryder Cup. The owner of the B&B where I stayed, invited me out to play golf. I used his old set of clubs: Pal Joey Irons, an original Big Bertha driver, no fairway woods, an old Wilson SW and a Titleist Bullseye putter. All were stiff shafts (I ususally play regular). I shot 81 (I am an 11.7 index). I came home and shot 86 in my next round with my own clubs. Go figure.

I made about 5 putts outside of 6 feet with that Bullseye putter. I was so excited I bought one just like it on Ebay when I got home. Never made a thing with it. Go figure, again.

**Horseballs** · 03-23-2009

As long as you use clubs that aren't drastically ill-suited for your game, I believe the equipment effect is minimal. I think set make-up can have a more significant impact than the brands/styles. I know a couple of guys whose 3-5 irons go the exact same distance. So much so that one guy never even bothers with the 3 or 4 iron. Why keep them in the bag if he's not going to fix his swing? If he picked up a couple clubs on the low or high end of the bag he'd have to see somewhat of drop in 'cap.

**bjdrivers** · 03-23-2009

i've broken 80 (my goal when i play) with all makes, models, SGIs, GIs, & blades. it really makes no difference in my scores, so i just use what looks good to my eye and is affordable. it's the indian, not the arrow.

only thing in my bag now that i'm playing noticeably better is my driver. i've finally found the perfect shaft/head combo & i'm a happy bjdrivers.

**dorkman53** · 03-23-2009

Obviously, you stacked the deck by the way you phrased the choices, but I would say that as a 10 index player, playing with my own clubs vs. playing with rentals would probably make 5-8 strokes/round difference. Therefore, I voted for the 5-10% category.

**lorenzoinoc** · 03-23-2009

This thread just isn't getting out the venom, as was intended, so let me see if I can help.

Equipment really makes no difference at all. It doesn't even matter whether it's fitted or not. They may have made bad clubs in the past, but today they're all pretty gosh darn good.

There's some hidden agenda for all of us with our equipment. If you haven't figured out what statement you're trying to make, you might start with the following possibilities:

I'm smart
I'm superior
I'm well-hung
I have money to burn
I'm way good at golf
I'm English
I don't fall for the normal bullsh!t (corollary of I'm smart)

Far from a complete list. Maybe one of Larry's psychiatrist's can add to it.

**ProStatus** · 03-23-2009

Its all about having the correct lie angle and shaft length and flex, also grip size. If you cant hit the middle of the face 8 out of ten times , then who cares what clubs you use, your just a hacker trying to get a par. Now when you start shooting in the 70's then maybe you should consider other options for shafts and certain clubs. IMO if you are a 20-30 handicap why would you go spend 1100 dollars on a set of new clubs instead of 200 dollars on a used set and 900 dollars on some frikin lessons................But then again most people think they can buy a good golf game........SYYYYYYYYKKE

**Omen2** · 03-23-2009

little to no difference... for good players... same for choppers.... the only thing that changes for me is that i have to play for a big draw with edgey's ( i cant square in time a real golf club ) shovels or try to hold on to every shot. but i dont think my score will change much. the only difference would be an ill fitted shaft in the driver. that could cause real problems.

Omen, Edgey, you cant beat me if i give you 5 a side you chopper piece of sheep phucking shi.t. you're lucky your que.er bagged as.s is so far away or i would make it a point to meet you, beat you, and then piss in your bag. with all due respect :-)

**Riverologist** · 03-23-2009

I think just the mental aspect of playing with equipment you think is good and are comfortable with is enough to drop a few strokes off your game. One is quick to blame the equipment for awful play...hence why companies like Callaway and TM can bring out so many new brands every year. People are always buying and changing gear trying to find the fix that just isn't there.

**SoonerBS** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by ProStatus

Its all about having the correct lie angle and shaft length and flex, also grip size. If you cant hit the middle of the face 8 out of ten times , then who cares what clubs you use, your just a hacker trying to get a par. Now when you start shooting in the 70's then maybe you should consider other options for shafts and certain clubs. IMO if you are a 20-30 handicap why would you go spend 1100 dollars on a set of new clubs instead of 200 dollars on a used set and 900 dollars on some frikin lessons................But then again most people think they can buy a good golf game........SYYYYYYYYKKE

If that 1100 dollars is spent on some PING Raptures it is a waste of money. If it spent on some Mizuno GFF MP series irons, it is money well spent. The shovels will never help a 20-30 handicap player to ever learn to hit the ball properly, but the MP series irons will inspire better ball striking and feedback to their game. No need to reply, I know I'm right.

**SoonerBS** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by dorkman53

Obviously, you stacked the deck by the way you phrased the choices, but I would say that as a 10 index player, playing with my own clubs vs. playing with rentals would probably make 5-8 strokes/round difference. Therefore, I voted for the 5-10% category.

I always thought this was mandatory for all GR polls . . . . .

**poe4soul** · 03-23-2009

I just sent back my replaced callaway ft-5. I had it for a season and late last year it got a head rattle. The club was repaired by callaway with exactly the same spec's equipment (so I thought). I couldn't hit the replacement driver to save my life. I was about 15-20 yards shorter and had many more misses than before. I just went through a driver fitting and the pro discovered the shaft in the club was stiffer that 2x-stiff. He speculated that it would just start to load at 125mph swing speed and it was labeled stiff. My scores with this club was about 3 strokes worse. What I found is that since I started missing with the new driver, I started tweaking my swing to make it work. It's a vicious cycle and if I didn't have a clue I would still be trying to make that ill-fitted POS work.

I do believe it is the indian and not the arrow but if the arrow is bent or doesn't have flights on it the indian isn't going to be hitting the targets. A good indian will know the equipment is junk and be looking for a better setup.

**bjdrivers** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by poe4soul

I just sent back my replaced callaway ft-5. I had it for a season and late last year it got a head rattle. The club was repaired by callaway with exactly the same spec's equipment (so I thought). I couldn't hit the replacement driver to save my life. I was about 15-20 yards shorter and had many more misses than before. I just went through a driver fitting and the pro discovered the shaft in the club was stiffer that 2x-stiff. He speculated that it would just start to load at 125mph swing speed and it was labeled stiff. My scores with this club was about 3 strokes worse. What I found is that since I started missing with the new driver, I started tweaking my swing to make it work. It's a vicious cycle and if I didn't have a clue I would still be trying to make that ill-fitted POS work.

I do believe it is the indian and not the arrow but if the arrow is bent or doesn't have flights on it the indian isn't going to be hitting the targets. A good indian will know the equipment is junk and be looking for a better setup.

don't know how true it is, but i read on a golf website that many pros will carry several of the exact same spec'd drivers to a range to find "the one" that plays to exact spec. that just shows you how off OTR clubs can be.

**edgey** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by Omen2

Omen, Edgey, you cant beat me if i give you 5 a side you chopper piece of sheep phucking shi.t. you're lucky your que.er bagged as.s is so far away or i would make it a point to meet you, beat you, and then piss in your bag. with all due respect :-)

None taken Omen, old friend.

Edgey

PS I wouldnt have a problem with you pissing in my bag, i suspect you have some experience in man on man watersports. After me and my chopper bag have whipped your scrawny PSEUDO ass i would make you drink the contents of my bag. Probably not a problem for you as i suspect you have drunk a lot of mens piss in the past. With all due respect ;-)

**edgey** · 03-23-2009

WTF is this thread all about!?

This is GR you f ucking Camp Freddy wimps, we all know that equipment is everything in golf. Where are the blades v cavitys, hybrids v long irons etc debates.

For f ucks sake man up you bunch of girly, flaming, limp wristed, tossers.

Edgey

**Not a hacker** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by bjdrivers

don't know how true it is, but i read on a golf website that many pros will carry several of the exact same spec'd drivers to a range to find "the one" that plays to exact spec. that just shows you how off OTR clubs can be.

I paid full price for a demo last time I bought a driver. I wanted the exact driver that I was getting such good numbers with. I've heard the same thing heaps of time with pros. They will never put a driver in play unless they have hit that exact driver on the range and like it. All their spare drivers will be ones they have either used or at least hit.

Back to topic, I thought it was a well established GR fact that a new set of sticks should drop 4 shots off your cap. If you don't, then you should ditch them and buy another set. Everyone knows the way to improvement is through equipment. Lessons and practice is a waste of time and money, the only way to get a better game is to buy one. I recommend GFF.

**ProStatus** · 03-23-2009

LOL.............I know you aint talkin to me punk. Maybe these other GR pimps. Ill tighten up any of you on the links and give you turds 4 strokes aside . Its too bad most of you live across the pond . Ill even use your shovel, off the rack pieces of junk irons you biotch about all the time. Its not about GFF or titties , its about getting your azz whooped and then stepped on and then handed back to you. So you can go home and look in the mirror and realize that its you that sux and should hang up the sticks for a bit.

**Not a hacker** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by ProStatus

LOL.............I know you aint talkin to me punk. Maybe these other GR pimps. Ill tighten up any of you on the links and give you turds 4 strokes aside . Its too bad most of you live across the pond . Ill even use your shovel, off the rack pieces of junk irons you biotch about all the time. Its not about GFF or titties , its about getting your azz whooped and then stepped on and then handed back to you. So you can go home and look in the mirror and realize that its you that sux and should hang up the sticks for a bit.

It's easy to be a great golfer from the comfort of your computer chair. Truth to tell, you would probably have trouble whooping the golfer in your avatar.

**Kiwi Player** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by poe4soul

I just sent back my replaced callaway ft-5. I had it for a season and late last year it got a head rattle. The club was repaired by callaway with exactly the same spec's equipment (so I thought). I couldn't hit the replacement driver to save my life. I was about 15-20 yards shorter and had many more misses than before. I just went through a driver fitting and the pro discovered the shaft in the club was stiffer that 2x-stiff. He speculated that it would just start to load at 125mph swing speed and it was labeled stiff. My scores with this club was about 3 strokes worse. What I found is that since I started missing with the new driver, I started tweaking my swing to make it work. It's a vicious cycle and if I didn't have a clue I would still be trying to make that ill-fitted POS work.

I do believe it is the indian and not the arrow but if the arrow is bent or doesn't have flights on it the indian isn't going to be hitting the targets. A good indian will know the equipment is junk and be looking for a better setup.

But the shaft flex makes NO difference with a Bobby Jones centrifugal swing. Any good Indian knows that.

You need to get yourself a PivotForPower device rather than wasting money on that new shaft.

**jt1135** · 03-23-2009

According to what the concensus of the posts say, equipment doesn't matter. So then a player hitting 72 will do it with any type of club. BUT will somebody playing about the mid 90's do the same thing using blades or sgi clubs? A lot of people here assume that everybody has the time and the where withall to go out and get lessons at the drop of a hat, but there are a lot of people that just go out to enjoy the game and have a good time with friends. If they know proper etiquette, follow the rule, don't hold anybody up and are no way a nuisance, does that make them less of a golfer than some ******* that has to size up every shot for 5 minutes even though he is a single digit handicap? Rather golf with a bunch of hackers that get thru a round in a decent time then a bunch of prima donnas that back up the whole course.

**lorenzoinoc** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by bjdrivers

don't know how true it is, but i read on a golf website that many pros will carry several of the exact same spec'd drivers to a range to find "the one" that plays to exact spec. that just shows you how off OTR clubs can be.

When my D3 head was ordered, the clubfitter specified that Titleist measure and find a neutral head from their stock even though they're all supposed to be .5 deg. open. Most drivers are manufactured with a 2 deg. tolerance. So without specifying, we could have gotten anything from .5 deg. closed to 1.5 deg. open. If there are variations in a standard spec, imagine what else could be different. So as NAH says, you need to try the exact club you'd buy, or have the right to return it.

As far as OEM shafts go, a couple of friends play the 905 D2, had their OEM shafts measured and found that they were way off in terms of stiffness. One was supposed to be stiff but was 2X. The other was X instead of stiff.

I don't quite know why I'm relaying all this because, as I stated earlier, equipment doesn't matter.

**lorenzoinoc** · 03-23-2009

Niki -- If you could provide visual evidence of you setting yourself on fire, I'll check out your web sites.

Also acceptable would be a video of you shoving a grenade up your ass and pulling the pin.

**oldplayer** · 03-23-2009

Originally Posted by bjdrivers

don't know how true it is, but i read on a golf website that many pros will carry several of the exact same spec'd drivers to a range to find "the one" that plays to exact spec. that just shows you how off OTR clubs can be.

It seems a commonly held belief that equipment contracted pros when trying for example a new driver will ask their club builders to make ten or so drivers to their exact specs, then take them to the range. From that ten they will always find one that fits them better and produces the best shots. It makes the average good golfer who is trying to get the best equipment feel like it is an almost impossible task.

**dancaban** · 03-24-2009

I teach and coach golf in an urban high school. Most of the boys come to me never having swung a golf club before, but after two years of playing golf, usually for three months out of each year, I have them shooting about 50-55 for nine holes.

Most of them have no clubs, so I furnish them with dreadful equipment (which is okay, because some of them would ruin good clubs): old K-Mart MacGregors, Spaldings with greyish clubheads, Ping knockoffs, many of which I find at thrift stores, yard sales, or for the cost of shipping on eBay. For woods, they start on original Big Bertha drivers and fairway clubs.

Here's the thing: Once they have developed a somewhat consistent swing, I graduate the better players to better clubs: Armour or Precept or Top Flite irons, Nike or Callaway or Mizuno drivers with more than 400cc.

I have found that moving the boys up to better irons makes very little difference in their games. Professional lessons and more practice on their short games would make a bigger improvement in their games. However, moving the boys up to better drivers made a dramatic difference. Once I made adjustments in tee height and technique, the boys generally hit the ball farther and kept the balls in the fairway more often. On our home course, the game is much easier when played from the fairway than from the trees or from the rough around the red tees. That's when most of them make the jump from scoring in the 60s to shooting in the 50s.

So, in their case, the difference that equipment makes depends on who you are and what you hit. Most of my boys are basically hackers that benefit from better woods, but not better irons.

Just a word about putting: Putters tend to be individual. Still, OTR putters tend to be too long, so I find myself cutting down the ones I find at thrift stores. Some kids respond better to a shorter putter because their swings become less wristy.

Dan