Having a tough time with the transition

[buddha33]

I'm working on my swing pretty hard lately and am having a difficult time with the transition. My takeaway is solid and I feel like I'm on the right plane at the top, but I can't get the hip push coordinated so that the club drops to the inside on the downswing. My arms want to take over which I know creates a loss of power and over-the-top move.

Any tips or drills you can recommend?

[Not a hacker]

Get yourself an impact bag. I got one recently and Ive already seen improvement in my ball striking. It has helped me get that solid flushed feeling you only get from the hands leading the clubhead and a firm left wrist at impact. I would also suggest getting a heavy club for practice sessions. An old style wooden diver has more weight in the clubhead and allows you to really feel the club dopping down from the top without using the arms. I have noticed that I find it easier with my irons to get it right as modern drivers are designed to be light. I may need some lead weight for my driver.

[Larryrsf]

I'm working on my swing pretty hard lately and am having a difficult time with the transition. My takeaway is solid and I feel like I'm on the right plane at the top, but I can't get the hip push coordinated so that the club drops to the inside on the downswing. My arms want to take over which I know creates a loss of power and over-the-top move.

Any tips or drills you can recommend?

You and 90%+ of amateurs.

The answer is slow motion rehearsals of the right moves in the right sequence. Hit balls only a few yards doing it exactly right. Do that for whole buckets, then go home and your subconscious mind will keep doing it. One day you will go to the range and turn, SHIFT, and swing. It must happen on the subconscious level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-U0WCC2Wf8

Just some of the drills I did. But the real answer is slow motion practice, patience, persistence. When you finally get it, you will be in the 1% of amateurs who make the transition weight shift. Most just turn and swing-- on their back foot. So they learn to make handsy compensations to steer the ball. Never works, the harder they swing, the more erratically they hit it sideways. Nobody can get below about 12 handicap until they learn to make that shift.

Possibly the most valuable thing my pro ever told me was that I would never get it while making full swings. He understood that the subconscious mind can be trained ONLY in slow motion rehearsals, exactly the way we learn to play difficult riffs in piano or guitar. Over and over again. Then quit and go to bed and let your subconscious mind work on it all night. This really works.

Also see the Hogan "arms crossed" drill in which the golf swing footwork is rehearsed. Do that slowly over and over again-- and just before bed..

Larry

[SoonerBS]

Get yourself an impact bag. I got one recently and Ive already seen improvement in my ball striking. It has helped me get that solid flushed feeling you only get from the hands leading the clubhead and a firm left wrist at impact. I would also suggest getting a heavy club for practice sessions. An old style wooden diver has more weight in the clubhead and allows you to really feel the club dopping down from the top without using the arms. I have noticed that I find it easier with my irons to get it right as modern drivers are designed to be light. I may need some lead weight for my driver.

Another reason why I like to play Mizunos. I have had a lot of different guys want to swing my clubs out on the course. No matter what set of Mizunos I am playing that day, they all say, "those feel so heavy." I don't ever notice it, I guess I am use to it, and I like it.

I think the OEMs are trying to condition us into thinking that "lighter is longer." I don't buy it. Hell, just hit the ball on the sweet spot of the club head and it will fly plenty far.

[Not a hacker]

Another reason why I like to play Mizunos. I have had a lot of different guys want to swing my clubs out on the course. No matter what set of Mizunos I am playing that day, they all say, "those feel so heavy." I don't ever notice it, I guess I am use to it, and I like it.

I think the OEMs are trying to condition us into thinking that "lighter is longer." I don't buy it. Hell, just hit the ball on the sweet spot of the club head and it will fly plenty far.

I think the lighter is longer paradigm is bogus. If you are a regular adult male you will swing better with weightier clubs and thus hit it longrr and straighter. Ask a demo guy if he would rather knock a wall down with a 9 pound sledgehammer or an 11. They will tell you that if you know how to swing a hammer the 11 is much better. I like to be able to feel the clubhead throughout the swing and that wont happen with super light clubs.

[famousdavis]

I think the lighter is longer paradigm is bogus. If you are a regular adult male you will swing better with weightier clubs and thus hit it longrr and straighter. Ask a demo guy if he would rather knock a wall down with a 9 pound sledgehammer or an 11. They will tell you that if you know how to swing a hammer the 11 is much better. I like to be able to feel the clubhead throughout the swing and that wont happen with super light clubs.

The heavier heads and shafts also allow the body to catch up with the hands. Since the tendency for almost every amateur is to come into the ball too quickly with the hands and arms, rather than shifting and turning first, they actually help the player to slow things down a bit. I know this is true with the Titleist 990 irons with Dynamic Gold shafts that I'm currently using. I still miss the feel of those Mizuno MP-60s, thuogh.

[mongrel]

I'm working on my swing pretty hard lately and am having a difficult time with the transition. My takeaway is solid and I feel like I'm on the right plane at the top, but I can't get the hip push coordinated so that the club drops to the inside on the downswing. My arms want to take over which I know creates a loss of power and over-the-top move.

Any tips or drills you can recommend?

When that creeps into my swing it will usually happen first thing on the practice range. When it does, I will intentionally start the downswing with a hip bump that precludes the OTT. I;m usually OK without the bump up to about 6 iron but will go back down to PW and bump everything until I;m in synch. Ironically, driver is usually not affected much. I guess it is the club length and the whippy shafts I play.

[Horseballs]

I'm working on my swing pretty hard lately and am having a difficult time with the transition. My takeaway is solid and I feel like I'm on the right plane at the top, but I can't get the hip push coordinated so that the club drops to the inside on the downswing. My arms want to take over which I know creates a loss of power and over-the-top move.

Any tips or drills you can recommend?

Assuming you are right handed. Keep your right elbow glued to your right hip as long as you can in the downswing. Impossible to go over the top, and it naturally delays your arm swing. Just make sure you aren't sliding with lower body. A good additional swing thought to help with the weight shift is to make sure your head is behind the ball when you make contact.

[Larryrsf]

I think the lighter is longer paradigm is bogus. If you are a regular adult male you will swing better with weightier clubs and thus hit it longrr and straighter. Ask a demo guy if he would rather knock a wall down with a 9 pound sledgehammer or an 11. They will tell you that if you know how to swing a hammer the 11 is much better. I like to be able to feel the clubhead throughout the swing and that wont happen with super light clubs.

Just take a graphite shaft club out on the range and hit balls to the same target you hit your Mizuno. You will hit it 10+ yards further with the same swing effort, very loose arm tension, light grip pressure, DUH, it works better and longer as we play 18 holes.

Do you use heavy steel shaft in your driver or 3w? Why not?

Larry

[famousdavis]

I'm working on my swing pretty hard lately and am having a difficult time with the transition. My takeaway is solid and I feel like I'm on the right plane at the top, but I can't get the hip push coordinated so that the club drops to the inside on the downswing. My arms want to take over which I know creates a loss of power and over-the-top move.

Any tips or drills you can recommend?

I'm also struggling recently with coming over the top. Every once in awhile this fault creeps into my swing. Yesterday it was pretty bad and I hit a bunch of high & week fades to the right. I rarely encounter this problem but it's been there for the past two weeks. One thing I've noticed that helps is if I can pause at the top and try to concentrate on turning my hips toward the target first.

[Larryrsf]

I'm also struggling recently with coming over the top. Every once in awhile this fault creeps into my swing. Yesterday it was pretty bad and I hit a bunch of high & week fades to the right. I rarely encounter this problem but it's been there for the past two weeks. One thing I've noticed that helps is if I can pause at the top and try to concentrate on turning my hips toward the target first.

Our game is 90% mental, to quote Jim Flick.

The answer to helplessly swinging in the wrong sequence (OTT is simply swinging shoulders before hips like in baseball), is to focus on a target easily reachable with a smooth correct swing. One thought that works is to focus on something only 150 yards from the tee and try to hit the ball to that.

I like to "play to the crowd" and hear the other 3 in my foursome remark, "nice swing." I only say that when I see a "pretty" smooth swing with a full finish, so I try to swing like that too.

NOBODY says "nice swing" even when an ugly slash hits it 300 yards! It was still an ugly slash and no real golfer wants to swing like that!

Larry

[buddha33]

Just make sure you aren't sliding with lower body.

How do you differentiate between gliding and the hip move towards the target?

[Horseballs]

How do you differentiate between gliding and the hip move towards the target?

Basically, you should feel like your left side hits a wall and you are posted against a firm left leg. Your knees and hips don't slide out over your left foot. I'm doing a terrible job explaining this...

[buddha33]

I'm also struggling recently with coming over the top. Every once in awhile this fault creeps into my swing. Yesterday it was pretty bad and I hit a bunch of high & week fades to the right. I rarely encounter this problem but it's been there for the past two weeks. One thing I've noticed that helps is if I can pause at the top and try to concentrate on turning my hips toward the target first.

Exactly. I also like the weighted club idea...just wish they weren't few and far between on ebay for us lefties.

[buddha33]

Basically, you should feel like your left side hits a wall and you are posted against a firm left leg. Your knees and hips don't slide out over your left foot. I'm doing a terrible job explaining this...

No...that makes sense. It sounds like the hip moves out to a certain point until the front leg is used as the base to swing around.

[alangbaker]

No...that makes sense. It sounds like the hip moves out to a certain point until the front leg is used as the base to swing around.

It's more than that.

The whole point of the movements in the golf swing is the achieve as much clubhead speed as possible with as little effort as possible (because more effort probably means less accuracy).

By starting the lower body forward and around, then stopping the forward motion, you actually transfer momentum up the chain. It's the same principle behind cracking a whip. The entire whip is in motion and then once the length of it passes the handle, progressively more and more of the whip is brought to a standstill, thus transferring the built up momentum to a progressively smaller mass. So what is left moving has to move a lot faster since momentum is mass multiplied by velocity.

It's the same in the golf swing. The whole body starts forward and then the lower body is stopped, so the upper body has greater speed, then it starts to slow and it transfers momentum to the arms, which start to slow and finally transfer momentum to the club. The last part is actually pretty easy to see in a swing vision face-on video. If you watch closely, you'll see that the hands are actually slowing down before impact.

I think that since most of us only very rarely get all the components right in this chain of events, it is success that leads to the feeling of a swing that was effortless but produced so much power.

[Not a hacker]

Assuming you are right handed. Keep your right elbow glued to your right hip as long as you can in the downswing. Impossible to go over the top, and it naturally delays your arm swing. Just make sure you aren't sliding with lower body. A good additional swing thought to help with the weight shift is to make sure your head is behind the ball when you make contact.

Correct. Keeping the right elbow in tight automatically drops the clubhead onto an inside path on the downswing. It also takes the hands and arms out and promotes a body swing. As you said all you need to do is make sure your hips are turning and not sliding. If you get this right you will be compressing the ball like never before and hitting beautiful power fades all day long, especially with the long clubs.

[famousdavis]

I'm working on my swing pretty hard lately and am having a difficult time with the transition. My takeaway is solid and I feel like I'm on the right plane at the top, but I can't get the hip push coordinated so that the club drops to the inside on the downswing. My arms want to take over which I know creates a loss of power and over-the-top move.

Any tips or drills you can recommend?

My most difficult transition of late has been switching from Venti to Grande for my morning trip to Starbucks. I normally go in and get a Venti Pike Place and add a little half & half and order a plain bagel, toasted with cream cheese. Now, I'm going with the grande size because it was too much caffeine before. We'll see what happens but I want you to know this has not been an easy transition. I guess you could say in a sense I'm shifting weight.

[24putts]

I normally ... order a plain bagel, toasted with cream cheese.

Just think how much better you'd play with a real breakfast. As Gary Player advised, "eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a pauper." Oh, and McDonald's coffee is far superior to S'bucks.

[buddha33]

Oh, and McDonald's coffee is far superior to S'bucks.

For those that prefer water over coffee, this is a true statement.

[SoonerBS]

I don't know just exactly what you guys mean by "transition," but I have been hitting better iron shots lately mainly through a "swing thought." I experience what you are experiencing, Buddha, whenever my tempo gets too quick. So, I slow my backswing down to a more controlled motion, then, once I have the club where I want it, I feel like I am bringing everything through -- hips and body -- and I allow my arms and hands to follow my body through the ball. Then, as I feel like I am exploding through the ball, I try to turn my body towards the pin and finish towards the pin. My arms and hands naturally finish around my body.

I think too much emphasis has been placed on finishing with a good follow through which gives everyone the impression of the arms and hands being clear around the left side of the body (right side for you). This is usually how they should end up naturally, but a person should envision or "feel" like their hands are finishing up at the pin. This way you will not have to worry about "over-swinging" and rush through the ball too quick.

Anyway, it is mostly a "swing thought" to me to achieve all this. I have probably explained it about as terrible as Alanbaker did. Just be thankful Pingman hasn't replied yet . . . . . . . . .

[buddha33]

I think that all makes sense. The key for me is making sure to push the hips towards the target first as opposed to turning or firing the hips. For example, if I I'm at the top of my swing and I turn my hips, it pulls my swing plane outside. On the other hand, if I bump or slide my right hip towards the target, the butt end of the club slides down into the slot perfectly. It all seems to work wonderfully in slow motion, but coordinating it all during an actual swing is a whole other beast. I like the ideas of using a weighted club and keeping my elbow tight to my body as I work through this.

Thanks for the feedback.

[rooboy]

For example, if I I'm at the top of my swing and I turn my hips, it pulls my swing plane outside.

When i start doing this, i have to remind myself to feel the separation between my midsection and shoulders as i turn through. Hips turn left, right shoulder moves down toward the ball,not around with the hips.

[poe4soul]

Just think how much better you'd play with a real breakfast. As Gary Player advised, "eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a pauper." Oh, and McDonald's coffee is far superior to S'bucks.

In the NW McD's serves Seattle's Best Coffee. I think they are owned by Starbucks.

[Larryrsf]

I don't know just exactly what you guys mean by "transition," but I have been hitting better iron shots lately mainly through a "swing thought." I experience what you are experiencing, Buddha, whenever my tempo gets too quick. So, I slow my backswing down to a more controlled motion, then, once I have the club where I want it, I feel like I am bringing everything through -- hips and body -- and I allow my arms and hands to follow my body through the ball. Then, as I feel like I am exploding through the ball, I try to turn my body towards the pin and finish towards the pin. My arms and hands naturally finish around my body.

I think too much emphasis has been placed on finishing with a good follow through which gives everyone the impression of the arms and hands being clear around the left side of the body (right side for you). This is usually how they should end up naturally, but a person should envision or "feel" like their hands are finishing up at the pin. This way you will not have to worry about "over-swinging" and rush through the ball too quick.

Anyway, it is mostly a "swing thought" to me to achieve all this. I have probably explained it about as terrible as Alanbaker did. Just be thankful Pingman hasn't replied yet . . . . . . . . .

I agree with several of my teachers who were themselves great golfers about the second half of the swing-- the "follow-through." They all believed that keeping the clubhead accelerating through the ball and all the way to over your lead shoulder was as important as the backswing and downswing.

Certainly "envisioning" that part of the swing does prevent deceleration, which is the most common mistake of all developing golfers.

So whatever it takes to get you to shift your weight and post during the transition between the end of your backswing and the start of your downswing, -- so that you enable yourself to hit down on ground balls and keep the clubhead accelerating toward the target. If you don't shift, you cast and waste most of your clubhead speed before the clubhead reaches the ball.

As Shawn Clement says over and over again, the essence of the golf swing is turn, SHIFT, swing. Skip the shift and you are just another high handicapper playing the treeline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-U0WCC2Wf8

Larry

[BrianMcG]

The best drill I have ever heard of was what my first pro taught me when I was a wee lad.

He called it the baseball drill.

When you make your backswing bring your left foot back against your right, if your are right handed.

Then just before you reach the top of your backswing, you will step your left foot toward the target. Kind of like a baseball player just before he hits. This will build just a little bit more tension in your right leg which then releases into the ball, and it helps with getting the lower body working first and get the club back on plane.

[Larryrsf]

The best drill I have ever heard of was what my first pro taught me when I was a wee lad.

He called it the baseball drill.

When you make your backswing bring your left foot back against your right, if your are right handed.

Then just before you reach the top of your backswing, you will step your left foot toward the target. Kind of like a baseball player just before he hits. This will build just a little bit more tension in your right leg which then releases into the ball, and it helps with getting the lower body working first and get the club back on plane.

Good stuff, but won't cure the root cause, which is the "distance disease." Beginners look out there and want to hit it over the horizon. So, even if they know the correct sequence, even if they have rehearsed "turn, SHIFT, swing" a thousand times, when a ball is down on the course they will turn and SWING, like a baseball batter, arms and shoulders leading hips-- and of course it goes sideways.

There is a very good reason older and experienced golfers can hit it straight. It is the same reason those who learned very young like the crop of new pros coming up can do it correctly. They ingrained the correct sequence immediately--and like Bubba, they never looked back. Bubba can't remember EVER failing to shift before he swung.

But all late beginners turn and SWING, no shift. That is "natural" and only those who will do a LOT of work can ever learn to swing correctly-- at least according to TPI.

And so golf is not a happy experience for them--and they quit--and quit joining country clubs and quit buying expensive golf clubs.

Larry

[buddha33]

So I took you guys up on the weighted club idea by taping a drill bit to the shaft of an old 6 iron I have. I'd come home from work and practice my swing in between random house activities.

I wasn't expecting any change in my game when I went golfing yesterday since I hadn't practiced the technique on the range, but damn was a striking the ball well. A good drive for me is usually about 240-250...but yesterday, I drove through the green on a 280 yard par 4. More importantly, everything was laser straight.

Anyway, props to everyone for the tips. I've got some work to do, but I feel like I'm definitely moving in the right direction.

[NiftyNiblick]

You have to be a certain kind of player to be swing consious. I don't think about my swing at all. I think about hitting shots. The swing for a hitter is different with each shot attempted, and the only important position is the position of the clubhead when it contacts the ball.

What made Tiger so great in his prime is that he had both-- a great swing and nothing short of genius shotmaking abilities. He could be Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen at the same time, and that made him even money against the whole field every time out.

Well, the great swing is no longer physically available to his injury riddled body. He should be a pure shotmaker now, but all he thinks about is finding his swing. That approach is hurting him badly, and if he doesn't change it, he'll never achieve all that is still available to him.

.

[Pottsy]

I'm working on my swing pretty hard lately and am having a difficult time with the transition. My takeaway is solid and I feel like I'm on the right plane at the top, but I can't get the hip push coordinated so that the club drops to the inside on the downswing. My arms want to take over which I know creates a loss of power and over-the-top move.

Any tips or drills you can recommend?

If you get set-up, takeaway, wrist hinge and plane right in the backswing you really cannot fail in the downswing!

[famousdavis]

You have to be a certain kind of player to be swing consious. I don't think about my swing at all. I think about hitting shots. The swing for a hitter is different with each shot attempted, and the only important position is the position of the clubhead when it contacts the ball.

What made Tiger so great in his prime is that he had both-- a great swing and nothing short of genius shotmaking abilities. He could be Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen at the same time, and that made him even money against the whole field every time out.

Well, the great swing is no longer physically available to his injury riddled body. He should be a pure shotmaker now, but all he thinks about is finding his swing. That approach is hurting him badly, and if he doesn't change it, he'll never achieve all that is still available to him.

.

I really hope you and I are not the only ones on this board who realize this. The act of hitting endless balls on the range, taking endless lessons and constantly reviewing your swing on video serves only one purpose--to do just that. If you enjoy all of that stuff by all means keep at it but just realize that it has very little to do with scoring and winning bets on the course.

I know this to be true, because I have played in betting games for the last 20 years with golfers that are all single digit handicaps. The guys who win the most money are the ones who know how to score. I can't explain how they do it but it appears to be a mixture of confidence in their swing, simplicity and NOT thinking of anything other than getting the ball in the hole in the fewest amount of strokes.

Many of these swings are actually quite ugly but most of them look correct in the hitting zone, that is, the area that represents two feet on either side of the ball. I'm not just talking ugly, I'm talking REALLY ugly swings.

This one guy, who looks to be 55, is about 5-10 and 190 pounds. He takes a short, fast swing and hits this low hook that goes about 260 to 270. He hardly ever misses a 4 foot putt.

These guys are not thinking about their swings when they play. They are thinking about where they want the ball to end up and that is the ONLY thing on their mind before the next shot.

Finally, none of these guys take lessons are beat endless cheap balls off of range mats. Why? Because it's counter-productive and meaningless.

The mini tours are full of guys with beautiful swings.

[buddha33]

I'm just trying to get the fundamentals down. I'm not tinkering with an already good game. I also don't want an ugly swing if there's anything I can do about it.

[poe4soul]

I really hope you and I are not the only ones on this board who realize this. The act of hitting endless balls on the range, taking endless lessons and constantly reviewing your swing on video serves only one purpose--to do just that. If you enjoy all of that stuff by all means keep at it but just realize that it has very little to do with scoring and winning bets on the course.

I know this to be true, because I have played in betting games for the last 20 years with golfers that are all single digit handicaps. The guys who win the most money are the ones who know how to score. I can't explain how they do it but it appears to be a mixture of confidence in their swing, simplicity and NOT thinking of anything other than getting the ball in the hole in the fewest amount of strokes.

Many of these swings are actually quite ugly but most of them look correct in the hitting zone, that is, the area that represents two feet on either side of the ball. I'm not just talking ugly, I'm talking REALLY ugly swings.

This one guy, who looks to be 55, is about 5-10 and 190 pounds. He takes a short, fast swing and hits this low hook that goes about 260 to 270. He hardly ever misses a 4 foot putt.

These guys are not thinking about their swings when they play. They are thinking about where they want the ball to end up and that is the ONLY thing on their mind before the next shot.

Finally, none of these guys take lessons are beat endless cheap balls off of range mats. Why? Because it's counter-productive and meaningless.

The mini tours are full of guys with beautiful swings.

I'd love to be one of those guys. I love to play more than practice. But right now I have time to play once, maybe twice a week. To keep some resemblance of a game, I can spend 30 minutes on a small bucket and 30-45 minutes on the chipping-putting green maybe twice a week.

As far as taking lessons and trying to create a swing, each his own. I personally enjoy the journey of building a repeatable swing, somewhat technically correct swing. Also, I think many of those unorthodox swings come with a bigger chance of injury of the lower back, neck, wrist, and/or elbow.

[Not a hacker]

I agree with FD. There have been many champion pros with very unorthodox or ugly swings over the years. Palmer, Trevino and to a degree Seve got it done with home made swings that wouldnt be taught by a modern pro. The great players have only 2 things in common. Great rhythm and tempo. And a repeatable action that produced the same impact position shot after shot. These two things allow a player to have control over where the ball is poing, thus allowing them to score. Modern swings look pretty but watch any pro tourney and note how many pretty swings go left or right from what looks like the same swing. Ugly but effective beats pretty but unreliable any day. Tiger is looking for a perfect swing and he sprays it all over the course with driver. Pros have become so obsessed with the perfect swing they have forgotten how to golf their ball around the course.

I blame the parasites out on the range whispering in pros ears. They make a good sales pitch with the scientific bs, backed by video analysis and launch monitors and the like. Truth is modern coaching has taken what is a natural action and try to make it a technical action. I predict that we will see many champions come through soon with funky home made swings after Bubba's win. The smok and mirrors of modern coaching is being exposed for the fraud that it is. Its a vicious circle. The player gets lessons to get better, but as they get worse their dependancy on lessons increases, until they are basket cases like Seve or Duval or maybe even Tiger. Tiger imho would be a better player if he sacked Butch in 97 and never took another lesson. What could a bum not good enough for the mini tours possibly teach the best player ever about how to hit a golf ball?

[Not a hacker]

I agree with FD. There have been many champion pros with very unorthodox or ugly swings over the years. Palmer, Trevino and to a degree Seve got it done with home made swings that wouldnt be taught by a modern pro. The great players have only 2 things in common. Great rhythm and tempo. And a repeatable action that produced the same impact position shot after shot. These two things allow a player to have control over where the ball is poing, thus allowing them to score. Modern swings look pretty but watch any pro tourney and note how many pretty swings go left or right from what looks like the same swing. Ugly but effective beats pretty but unreliable any day. Tiger is looking for a perfect swing and he sprays it all over the course with driver. Pros have become so obsessed with the perfect swing they have forgotten how to golf their ball around the course.

I blame the parasites out on the range whispering in pros ears. They make a good sales pitch with the scientific bs, backed by video analysis and launch monitors and the like. Truth is modern coaching has taken what is a natural action and try to make it a technical action. I predict that we will see many champions come through soon with funky home made swings after Bubba's win. The smok and mirrors of modern coaching is being exposed for the fraud that it is. Its a vicious circle. The player gets lessons to get better, but as they get worse their dependancy on lessons increases, until they are basket cases like Seve or Duval or maybe even Tiger. Tiger imho would be a better player if he sacked Butch in 97 and never took another lesson. What could a bum not good enough for the mini tours possibly teach the best player ever about how to hit a golf ball?

[Not a hacker]

I'd love to be one of those guys. I love to play more than practice. But right now I have time to play once, maybe twice a week. To keep some resemblance of a game, I can spend 30 minutes on a small bucket and 30-45 minutes on the chipping-putting green maybe twice a week.

As far as taking lessons and trying to create a swing, each his own. I personally enjoy the journey of building a repeatable swing, somewhat technically correct swing. Also, I think many of those unorthodox swings come with a bigger chance of injury of the lower back, neck, wrist, and/or elbow.

Im against lessons but couldnt agree more about practice. Practice is crucial to learning. Sure at the very start you may need lessons to get the fundamentals down, but once they are good you need to practice to get better. Digging a swing out the dirt implies lots of practice and imo is the only road to improvement. Fine motor skills take thousands of repetitions to ingrain, and the golf swing is fundamentally a sequence of fine motor skills. Lessons are worthless without practice, but practice without lessons will still lead to improvement.

[Horseballs]

I don't think you necessarily have to physically practice in order to maintain good form. It's not so much that I cannot practice, but I place other things above it in my priorities. Plus, I just don't enjoy it enough. I will admit that I am not going to get appreciably better without spending more time either playing or practicing, but I know that my current form is good enough.
I have a good understanding of my full swing and have boiled the whole thing down to a couple of swing thoughts. The rest comes naturally.
My setup. Tension free with weigh evenly distributed on both feet. Try to feel like my left shoulder isn't too high (it's still higher than the right, but I have a tendancy to move that shoulder higher which sucks for irons).
My backswing. Keep the same tempo up to the top.
My downswing. Get my weight shifted and keep my head behind the ball. Light grip pressure all throughout.
My follow through. Who gives a sh!t?
I just run through these thoughts when I'm warming up. Remembering these swing thoughts from week to week is just as good as practice for me.

[buddha33]

Lessons are worthless without practice, but practice without lessons will still lead to improvement.

This still doesn't square the argument that no lessons > lessons. Here's how I'd rank them:

1. Lessons + practice
2. No lessons but practice
3. Lessons, no practice
4. No lessons, no practice.

[Fluffy]

This still doesn't square the argument that no lessons > lessons. Here's how I'd rank them:

1. Lessons + practice
2. No lessons but practice
3. Lessons, no practice
4. No lessons, no practice.

I''ll add a #0 ontop of that list:

Practise + knowing what you are doing wrong.

Screw lessons......I cant afford them

[Kiwi Player]

1. New clubs
2. Lessons + practice
3. No lessons but practice
4. Lessons, no practice
5. No lessons, no practice.

You left out the most important key to improvement. Other than that your order was spot on.

[famousdavis]

1. New clubs
2. Lessons + practice
3. No lessons but practice
4. Lessons, no practice
5. No lessons, no practice.

You left out the most important key to improvement. Other than that your order was spot on.

1. Newly purchased used clubs
2. New shoes, shorts and shirt and belt
3. New Rangefinder
4. Subscription to Golf World
5. Playing in money games
6. Lessons from the PGA Tour wannabe.

[lorenzoinoc]

1. New clubs
2. Lessons + practice
3. No lessons but practice
4. Lessons, no practice
5. No lessons, no practice.

You left out the most important key to improvement. Other than that your order was spot on.

1. P.ussy
2. Working out
3. New clubs
4. Lessons + practice
5. No lessons but practice
6. Lessons, no practice
7. No lessons, no practice.
8. Lessons from Kevin.
8. Lessons from Mark Wahlberg after Kevin's fired you.

[Larryrsf]

This still doesn't square the argument that no lessons > lessons. Here's how I'd rank them:

1. Lessons + practice
2. No lessons but practice
3. Lessons, no practice
4. No lessons, no practice.

I suspect most if not all late beginners who aspire to decent golf MUST take lessons. Basically we have no Earthly idea what we are actually doing without that other set of expert eyes. Then we have no idea what the root cause of our swing faults are without that same expertise. Then we have no idea how to fix our faults without that same expertise. So the short cut to decent golf is lessons from a good PGA pro.

There are differences among them, however, just as there are among physicians. So definitely get another opinion periodically. Teaching pros are always learning themselves and of course they can only teach what they understand and feel from their own swing.

I went down to Stadium Golf and took a lesson from Scott Mahlberg yesterday. This is the video from that. There was also a 6-page report from the launch monitor, interesting, but the instruction was the most productive for me. FIRST, as you hear, he said the lesson could really not proceed until I had established the firm foundation for my golf swing by getting my front heel firmly down before my downswing. Until I did that, nothing worked. Shifting weight to the front heel early in the swing is the "transition weight shift" that so many find so difficult. Its not-- especially once you realize there is no hurry to get it done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_7vEO7mqG4

That is primary. Then after I got my front heel down, I learned to create more clubhead speed AT IMPACT and not waste it jprematurely by casting. I learned to DRAG the club handle longitudinally until my hands were over the ball-- WHILE rolling my forearms to close the clubface through impact, a "trapping" move that helps us hit DOWN on the ball and creates a later release.

Shift, drag, roll.

I also learned that several things I thought were vitally important axioms --are not, and may in fact be counter-productive--at least for older golfers. FIRST, it is NOT important to keep the arms straight. They will straighten at impact. Second, it is NOT important to make a full shoulder turn. Stretching and straining to backswing fully with straight lead arm may actually be counterproductive because it adds tension and prevents a free relaxed swing with a late release.

Larry

[alangbaker]

I suspect most if not all late beginners who aspire to decent golf MUST take lessons. Basically we have no Earthly idea what we are actually doing without that other set of expert eyes. Then we have no idea what the root cause of our swing faults are without that same expertise. Then we have no idea how to fix our faults without that same expertise. So the short cut to decent golf is lessons from a good PGA pro.

There are differences among them, however, just as there are among physicians. So definitely get another opinion periodically. Teaching pros are always learning themselves and of course they can only teach what they understand and feel from their own swing.

I went down to Stadium Golf and took a lesson from Scott Mahlberg yesterday.

So I guess Kevin didn't turn out to be a "good PGA pro" after all, huh? But you told us all how good he was, Larry!

This is the video from that. There was also a 6-page report from the launch monitor, interesting, but the instruction was the most productive for me. FIRST, as you hear, he said the lesson could really not proceed until I had established the firm foundation for my golf swing by getting my front heel firmly down before my downswing. Until I did that, nothing worked. Shifting weight to the front heel early in the swing is the "transition weight shift" that so many find so difficult. Its not-- especially once you realize there is no hurry to get it done.

Yet you've told us umpteen times you were already doing it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_7vEO7mqG4

...so why does Scott have to teach you that you weren't?

That is primary. Then after I got my front heel down, I learned to create more clubhead speed AT IMPACT and not waste it jprematurely by casting. I learned to DRAG the club handle longitudinally until my hands were over the ball-- WHILE rolling my forearms to close the clubface through impact, a "trapping" move that helps us hit DOWN on the ball and creates a later release.

What?????

Using your arms? That was verboten just yesterday!

Shift, drag, roll.

Not vertical, flatten, swing.

I also learned that several things I thought were vitally important axioms --are not, and may in fact be counter-productive--at least for older golfers. FIRST, it is NOT important to keep the arms straight. They will straighten at impact. Second, it is NOT important to make a full shoulder turn. Stretching and straining to backswing fully with straight lead arm may actually be counterproductive because it adds tension and prevents a free relaxed swing with a late release.

And you'll come back in a couple of months after Scott's given up on you (as evidently Kevin now has) with another video... ...from another pro...

...and tell us an entirely different set of things are "most important".

[famousdavis]

I suspect most if not all late beginners who aspire to decent golf MUST take lessons. Basically we have no Earthly idea what we are actually doing without that other set of expert eyes. Then we have no idea what the root cause of our swing faults are without that same expertise. Then we have no idea how to fix our faults without that same expertise. So the short cut to decent golf is lessons from a good PGA pro.

There are differences among them, however, just as there are among physicians. So definitely get another opinion periodically. Teaching pros are always learning themselves and of course they can only teach what they understand and feel from their own swing.

I went down to Stadium Golf and took a lesson from Scott Mahlberg yesterday. This is the video from that. There was also a 6-page report from the launch monitor, interesting, but the instruction was the most productive for me. FIRST, as you hear, he said the lesson could really not proceed until I had established the firm foundation for my golf swing by getting my front heel firmly down before my downswing. Until I did that, nothing worked. Shifting weight to the front heel early in the swing is the "transition weight shift" that so many find so difficult. Its not-- especially once you realize there is no hurry to get it done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_7vEO7mqG4

That is primary. Then after I got my front heel down, I learned to create more clubhead speed AT IMPACT and not waste it jprematurely by casting. I learned to DRAG the club handle longitudinally until my hands were over the ball-- WHILE rolling my forearms to close the clubface through impact, a "trapping" move that helps us hit DOWN on the ball and creates a later release.

Shift, drag, roll.

I also learned that several things I thought were vitally important axioms --are not, and may in fact be counter-productive--at least for older golfers. FIRST, it is NOT important to keep the arms straight. They will straighten at impact. Second, it is NOT important to make a full shoulder turn. Stretching and straining to backswing fully with straight lead arm may actually be counterproductive because it adds tension and prevents a free relaxed swing with a late release.

Larry

This is the first time I've actually seen a full swing of yours in a quality video. To my eye, it looks like you need to turn your hips a little bit more on the backswing. That's what the pro means when he's talking about footwork on the backswing. Your legs are too inactive while you are taking the club back and you are not turning your shoulders enough. You'll feel much more power in your swing if you let the right foot lift up a bit on the backswing and turn your hips more. Think Jack Nicklaus. You basically have no pivot at all in your swing.

Second, when you come into the ball you are casting the club, rather than turning your hips, posting on your right leg and then allowing the arms and hands to follow. This results in a loss of power on the downswing.

Finally, the plane of your swing it too upright and you are lifting your body up as you come into the ball. It's difficult to hit from the inside if you do this. The right foot coming off of the ground at impact makes it impossible to be consistent or generate any power. I'm referring to your right foot because you are left handed. It would be the left foot for right-handers.

However, with all of that being said, your swing in a general sense looks pretty good and you have decent fundamentals.

That's what I saw in the video.

[Kiwi Player]

This is the first time I've actually seen a full swing of yours in a quality video. To my eye, it looks like you need to turn your hips a little bit more on the backswing. That's what the pro means when he's talking about footwork on the backswing. Your legs are too inactive while you are taking the club back and you are not turning your shoulders enough. You'll feel much more power in your swing if you let the right foot lift up a bit on the backswing and turn your hips more. Think Jack Nicklaus. You basically have no pivot at all in your swing.

Second, when you come into the ball you are casting the club, rather than turning your hips, posting on your right leg and then allowing the arms and hands to follow. This results in a loss of power on the downswing.

Finally, the plane of your swing it too upright and you are lifting your body up as you come into the ball. It's difficult to hit from the inside if you do this. The right foot coming off of the ground at impact makes it impossible to be consistent or generate any power. I'm referring to your right foot because you are left handed. It would be the left foot for right-handers.

However, with all of that being said, your swing in a general sense looks pretty good and you have decent fundamentals.

That's what I saw in the video.

Hey, if that swing allows Larry to break 80 playing from the tips on championship courses as tells us he regularly does why should any of that matter?

[alangbaker]

Hey, if that swing allows Larry to break 80 playing from the tips on championship courses as tells us he regularly does why should any of that matter?

Gee... ...you don't think that Larry might have been lying...

...do you?

Why would a narcissist do that?

[NiftyNiblick]

A "special" person doesn't have to lie to say inane things.

Transitions can by easy as well.

Transitioning from working person to retiree was a piece of cake. I don't mean just any cake. I mean a delicious cassata from your favorite North End bakery.

[buddha33]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_7vEO7mqG4


Larry

Did Scott suggest to you a 90* angle of your right arm at the top? I think that's a compensation for the lack of hip turn that FD is talking about.

I appreciate that you posted your swing, at least. Not too many here would put themselves out there like that. You're still a right-wing nutjob though.

[NiftyNiblick]

Even the village idiot can fool people at times. Apparently, noone can resist commenting on his switching instructors. What disappoints me is if that particular trolling maneuver hadn't worked, I think he would videotaped stepping in front of a moving train to get attention.

You guys are way too easy.

Noone fronted Herman's Hermits, didn't he?

[lorenzoinoc]

Even the village idiot can fool people at times. Apparently, noone can resist commenting on his switching instructors. What disappoints me is if that particular trolling maneuver hadn't worked, I think he would videotaped stepping in front of a moving train to get attention.

You guys are way too easy.

[Kiwi Player]

So I guess Kevin didn't turn out to be a "good PGA pro" after all, huh? But you told us all how good he was, Larry!



Yet you've told us umpteen times you were already doing it...



...so why does Scott have to teach you that you weren't?



What?????

Using your arms? That was verboten just yesterday!



Not vertical, flatten, swing.





And you'll come back in a couple of months after Scott's given up on you (as evidently Kevin now has) with another video... ...from another pro...

...and tell us an entirely different set of things are "most important".

Alan, Alan, Alan ... please ... don't get back into the line by line, paragraph by paragraph analysis of his posts. I know I haven't been perfect either but you ignoring the old fool has been great.

You remind me of a junkie who has been clean for 5 years but we know that if you touch the stuff you will be immediately hooked again. None of us want to see that. Please try and resist the temptation, strong as it may be.

[alangbaker]

Alan, Alan, Alan ... please ... don't get back into the line by line, paragraph by paragraph analysis of his posts. I know I haven't been perfect either but you ignoring the old fool has been great.

You remind me of a junkie who has been clean for 5 years but we know that if you touch the stuff you will be immediately hooked again. None of us want to see that. Please try and resist the temptation, strong as it may be.

I'm just marking a particular moment in time.

This is the beginning of a new cycle for Larry and I wanted to make sure it didn't pass unnoticed.

[poe4soul]

Can anyone tell me if they can open these links to the youtube video and then play it?

Top one - no - link is invalid.
Bottom one - yes open, yes play.

[SoonerBS]

1. P.ussy
2. Working out
3. New clubs
4. Lessons + practice
5. No lessons but practice
6. Lessons, no practice
7. No lessons, no practice.
8. Lessons from Kevin.
8. Lessons from Mark Wahlberg after Kevin's fired you.

Even the village idiot can fool people at times. Apparently, noone can resist commenting on his switching instructors. What disappoints me is if that particular trolling maneuver hadn't worked, I think he would videotaped stepping in front of a moving train to get attention.

You guys are way too easy.

[Larryrsf]

This is the first time I've actually seen a full swing of yours in a quality video. To my eye, it looks like you need to turn your hips a little bit more on the backswing. That's what the pro means when he's talking about footwork on the backswing. Your legs are too inactive while you are taking the club back and you are not turning your shoulders enough. You'll feel much more power in your swing if you let the right foot lift up a bit on the backswing and turn your hips more. Think Jack Nicklaus. You basically have no pivot at all in your swing.

Second, when you come into the ball you are casting the club, rather than turning your hips, posting on your right leg and then allowing the arms and hands to follow. This results in a loss of power on the downswing.

Finally, the plane of your swing it too upright and you are lifting your body up as you come into the ball. It's difficult to hit from the inside if you do this. The right foot coming off of the ground at impact makes it impossible to be consistent or generate any power. I'm referring to your right foot because you are left handed. It would be the left foot for right-handers.

However, with all of that being said, your swing in a general sense looks pretty good and you have decent fundamentals.

That's what I saw in the video.

Thanks FD. All true of course. And those were my "before" swings. It was fairly easy afterward to go to a driving range and ingrain the new moves. I worked on it again today and really for the first time ever felt the "drag" he was talking about and combined that with the rolling of my forearms to trap the ball and get that late release AFTER the ball position. I could hear the clubhead compressing the ball!

It really didn't take very many swings before I started feeling the new swing. I was flying 6i OVER 160 yards and drivers way over 250 yards with range balls. So it works.

Amazingly, some of the stuff you cited is simply unimportant! The ONLY thing that creates clubhead speed is the late release through the ball with the clubhead correctly oriented. That happens IF (1). Our front heel is down, (2) we avoid casting by "dragging" the club handle toward its butt, and (3) we roll our forearms to close the clubface through impact and beyond. A much flatter downswing is a product of the weight shift-- having the weight on the front heel before the downswing. That creates the "tilt" that brings the club down on plane or even UNDER the plane.

Getting my front heel down early promotes the weight shift and aggressive hip turn through impact-- the hips leading the shoulders for the "x factor" that creates the late release. And it was easy to make the classic leg action with my back knee shifting up to touch my front knee, classic finish, etc. WARNING: NOTHING WORKS WITH A POOR OR INCOMPLETE WEIGHT SHIFT!!!

The DRAGGING or pulling of the handle longitudinally while avoiding pushing it with the lower hand places the club in the correct position to allow gravity to accelerate the clubhead to the ball-- NO CASTING.

The rolling forearms aligns the clubhead toward the target and allows it to accelerate through the ball-- and creates the late release that adds 50 yards to drives!

That's it folks. Other stuff like keeping the lead arm straight and making a full shoulder turn is simply not very important. You can still consistently hit them long and straight without doing that!!! Your swing can be relaxed and casual while you drive it 270ish.

I paid for this expensive lesson-- and will return in a couple of weeks for refreshers as necessary.

I hope some of you benefit. It is really not that complex if you will focus on the first things first-- and that is the front heel down!!!

See you out there.

Larry

[famousdavis]

OK, here is my swing video in front of a large crowd. An exhibition if you will:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6YS6OVdJI

[Larryrsf]

OK, here is my swing video in front of a large crowd. An exhibition if you will:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6YS6OVdJI

Sorry FD, but nobody could discern anything from that swing from that view.

A teaching pro would want to see the clubshaft relative to your body as it comes down. If it appears up over your shoulder, you failed to shift, swung down OTT and likely decelerated, topped the ball or needed to make handsy compensations to steer the ball.

The further it appears below your shoulder the better. Ideal is aligned with your right forearm. That would indicate a correct weight shift (weight on your left heel) and upper body tilt when you kept your head behind the ball through impact.

So thanks! But no thanks, we can't discern much.

I did like your tempo!

Larry

[poe4soul]

Sorry FD, but nobody could discern anything from that swing from that view.

A teaching pro would want to see the clubshaft relative to your body as it comes down. If it appears up over your shoulder, you failed to shift, swung down OTT and likely decelerated, topped the ball or needed to make handsy compensations to steer the ball.

The further it appears below your shoulder the better. Ideal is aligned with your right forearm. That would indicate a correct weight shift (weight on your left heel) and upper body tilt when you kept your head behind the ball through impact.

So thanks! But no thanks, we can't discern much.

I did like your tempo!

Larry

Whatever! Long and short, you'd quit taking lessons if you had a swing like FD'a.

[Larryrsf]

Whatever! Long and short, you'd quit taking lessons if you had a swing like FD'a.

Maybe. But he could have topped it, missed it, or hit it into the trees. There is very little evidence that that was a good golf swing. Maybe he will post a better video.

Larry

[spanqdoggie]

Maybe. But he could have topped it, missed it, or hit it into the trees. There is very little evidence that that was a good golf swing. Maybe he will post a better video.

Larry

[Not a hacker]

Whatever! Long and short, you'd quit taking lessons if you had a swing like FD'a.

Lessons? Hell Id quit taking breaths if I had that girly man swing. Going on would be pointless if I couldnt hit a golf ball like a man.