Shaft too flexible ???

[Lowrider]

When I try to hit my driver hard, the ball just crawls, I have to hit very slow to get it airborn, and then not much more than 10' high, it has 13* loft...

Is it the shaft that is too flexible, it is regular graphite, I trimmed 1.25" to get it a bit harder, but didnt change anything, do I need a stiff shaft...

[PA Jayhawk]

I would probably recommend having your swing checked out prior to tampering with your driver. I would tend to believe you may be doing something in you swing, setup or ball position to get the low ball flight.

[bethpage caddy]

Yes, see a professional about that. A 13* driver is practically an oversized 3-wood. If you're still having the problem, then look into the shaft problem, but I doubt its that.

[Lowrider]

I am sure my swing is far from good, but I did hit further and higher with a 9.5 driver with Graffaloy shaft, maybe hurting my ribs spoiled my never that great swing, I am worst with my irons too...

The only part of my game that is better is approach shots, probably because the clubs are short and I dont try to shoot far...

[golf-addict]

Driver is really the last one to work on. I probably waste most of club hoing on drivers, searching for idea combination, but even the dream one won't last more than 9 month, too much variations, comes and goes.

Try to learn hitting woods off the mat, not tee, then you would have the distance. It would improve your full swing feeling for the driver too.

Work from your short 7-9i with 1/2 and 3/4 swings, it will help you focus on downswing, impact and follow thru and take the variation of back swing out of equation, help to quiet your body, develop compact swing and improve ball striking in the end.

long irons are just as hard as drivers to most of starters.

[Lowrider]

The only club I practice from tee is the driver, all others from mat or grass...

The advantage of using the driver is that the ball always go past the ladies tee, save some money not buying beers to mates, with other clubs, probably because I try to hit too hard, sometimes it doesnt go anywhere, yesterday I went back to only playing irons, trying to improve my swing, and did it 4 times during just one game...

My wife watched me practicing today, and said I am leaning forward too much again, that might be my problem, tomorrow I will go back and try to play a more straight position...

My pro always recommended the 1/2 swing with PW, but he is on vacation and I forgot...

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

The advantage of using the driver is that the ball always go past the ladies tee, save some money not buying beers to mates,

You obviously play with a nicer crowd than I do. If I don't reach the ladies tees, they would just assume buy their own beer, I would be playing the next shot with my pants around my ankles, and that is only if they are feeling nice on that day. They tend to believe humiliation is much more important than saving a few dollars on beer.

As far as hitting low, I went through a real slump when I got my new driver, hitting snap hooks and low shots. I just think the extra size of a 460 cc driver was a big part of the problem. It took me almost a month of persistance and bad shots to get over it. It was a large part mental, practicing too much, thinking to much. Finally I broke out of this in large part to something I otherwise found improper. Alot of it was tempo in the fact that I believe the added weight slowed down my backswing, to fix the issue I slowed it down even more. By increasing my backswing speed, it actually helped the problem (I got a book Tour Tempo which gave me the idea it was way to slow)

The other thing I did, which was certainly not a "fix", and is actually not the best of things to do, nor would I recommend doing it for more than a couple shots in a round, but is a good way to get over the mental side. I would rest the club head on the ground at set up to see the proper angle and loft, I would then just open the clubface up a few degrees. This would result in a high push to the right. After seeing I could get the ball that high in the air, I would ease my way back to the straight shot or draw that I am used to. I think I would actual hood the clubface a little and didn't know.

An instructor may be able to help you out quicker, I tend to believe that doing anymore to a 13* driver to gain loft is a bad move without having someone view your swing. If you short the shaft anymore, you may find you have a unhitable club that needs reshafting. It would probably cost a lot less to see the instructor at a lot less cost. It may in fact be the shaft, but trying to correct the wrong thing my wreck your game.

[Lowrider]

It is embarassing enough not to pass the ladies tee...

My previous driver was also 460cc, a Cleveland Launcher 9.5*, everybody, including my pro coach, kept saying the fault of not hitting it that well was the small loft, that I needed more loft, so I went all the way with 13*...

I see I was right when I said it was me not the club...

Anyway, higher loft wont hurt me, but I read several times that high loft goes better with stiff shaft, so I have to try it one of this days...

[golfsalot27]

Try playing the ball farther ahead in your stance. You may have to plane the club a bit longer but if you hit the ball on the upswing your height on drives should improve greatly.

[Lowrider]

I did try that, but it would draw miserably, still low...

[AJW]

How high are you teeing it up?
You need to see half the ball above the club face, even when your hovering the club, and allow a little more weight to rest on the right foot at set up this will help promote an ascending blow.

[Lowrider]

I use Step Lift Tees long, 3"...

Didnt matter how I hit, only very slow swing would lift the ball, so I took the driver to the store to replace the shaft with Grafalloy Blue, will report next week...

[dorkman53]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

I use Step Lift Tees long, 3"...

Didnt matter how I hit, only very slow swing would lift the ball, so I took the driver to the store to replace the shaft with Grafalloy Blue, will report next week...

Did you get the Blue or the Blue ProLaunch? The Blue tends to hit on a lower trajectory than the ProLaunch.

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

When I try to hit my driver hard, the ball just crawls, I have to hit very slow to get it airborn, and then not much more than 10' high, it has 13* loft...

Is it the shaft that is too flexible, it is regular graphite, I trimmed 1.25" to get it a bit harder, but didnt change anything, do I need a stiff shaft...

There is absolutely no way that your problem has to do with your shaft being too flexible. A stiffer shaft will not solve your problem. Also, trimming the tip will only make your problem worse. Your shaft kickpoint needs to be lower, not higher. If you are reshafting with a Grafalloy Blue, it should be the ProLaunch Blue. The regular Blue has a high kickpoint and is not the right shaft for you. Regardless, your equipment is not the problem, period. You need to improve your swing.

It sounds to me that you are topping the ball, a common result of the dreaded "scooping" problem. There are far too many possible reasons for your problem, but I would guess that the most likely one is that you are uncocking your wrists too early. Resist the urge to help the ball in the air with your wrists. As you swing harder, you're probably uncocking your wrists even earlier, worsening the problem. Read the ball striking thread that's already been posted.

Until you can hit your 3-wood over 200 yards off the tee, you should not even touch a driver. That was the advice given to me when I started playing and any instructor worth their salt will tell you the same thing. I didn't even buy a driver during my first 2 years learning golf...

[Lowrider]

I got the Blue, I had it on my Cleveland Launcher and was getting almost good with it, also my driver is 13*...

Maveric,

Sometimes you are too aggressive with your comments...

One of this days you will understand that what is good for you might not be for everybody else...

I never said my swing was perfect, but I can see where the ball goes with the different options I try, today I was hitting perfect sweet spot, nice ring, strong tee off, but always along the ground, with severe distance reduction, even my friends told me to get rid of that shaft quickly...

As for your 3 wood theory, when I try to hit woods, or long irons, too strong, I screw up, too many lost balls and points, at least it goes straight with a huge driver, it means a much better score, even when I dont shoot far...

If you look at my bag, (signature), you will see I dont even carry "proper" woods anymore...

[College Golf]

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

You obviously play with a nicer crowd than I do....I would be playing the next shot with my pants around my ankles,

Oh, the famed "Elephant Rule".

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Sometimes you are too aggressive with your comments...

One of this days you will understand that what is good for you might not be for everybody else...

As an accomplished golfer with over 12 years of golfing experience, I believe that I have a little more basis for offering advice than a person with only several months of experience. Please quote exactly what I have written that you believe to be improper advice.

How do you even know whether my advise is correct or not? What is your basis?

You have asked for advice, and I took the time to give you my advice, which I believe to be completely sound. I challenge you to find an experienced and accomplished golfer that would disagree with the advice that I have given.

Do you think that I'm just making up my advice out of the blue? According to LPGA hall-of-famer Kathy Whitworth, "Many beginners have trouble getting the ball airborne with a driver, so to instill confidence a pro may suggest that a new player tee off with a shorter, higher-lofted wood, which more easily gets the ball up in the air. I didn't hit a driver when I started out..." I stand by my recommendation that you should swap out your driver for a 15-degree 3-wood. I don't know a single beginning golfer who has not benefitted immensely from this advice.

It appears to me that you are not actually seeking advice. Instead, you are trying to find support for a belief that you have already established. In this case, you believe that a soft shaft is the primary reason for your driving difficulties. You want to play with a stiffer shaft and you are seeking validation to do so. Any advice that you receive saying otherwise, you dismiss.

It seems that you are the one who is making up golf theories out of the blue. You so adamantly believed that a soft shaft was the root of your problems that you tipped it and then when that didn't work, you swapped it out completely for a stiffer shaft with a high kickpoint.

Please, explain your theory that a stiffer shaft with a high kickpoint will increase your distance and trajectory. Inquiring minds want to know. Also, please tell us your carry distance and your swing speed with your current driver.

I also recommend that you email your theory to ask.grafalloy@truetemper.com and let us know their response. It sounds like you can teach them a thing or two about shafts.

[Lowrider]

I appreciate your kindness taking time to give me advice, but I would also appreciate that you read my posts completely before repeating the same advice on and on, I did read your repetitive posts and accept that you recommend what you think works for you again and again...

But you are not the only source of information on this quest of mine to try and learn how to play Golf well enough just to have fun, not to became a PGA pro, if you don't mind...

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

The only club I practice from tee is the driver, all others from mat or grass...

So how do you know that a 15-degree 3-wood or any other fairway wood off the tee doesn't work better for you than driver? Do you hit driver off the deck better than you hit your fairway woods? Since you don't practice hitting fairway woods off the tee, then that's the only logical way to know, correct?

[pcdo]

Ya know lowrider, if you're hitting with the driver and it rolls on the ground immediately, then that ain't the club's fault. I was using a 7.5* for awhile and I could still get that thing into the air with decent trajectory. It didn't go as far as my higher lofted 10.5* driver I now use, but it definitely didn't start rolling on the ground. The real reason why you hit it on the ground when you swing harder is most likely because when you swing harder you're not making good contact with the ball anymore. Believe me, when I first started I could take an easy swing and the ball would go on a nice trajectory, but then I'd try to rip it and it just go bouncing along the ground. It wasn't the flex, it was the fact that when I swung harder I pulled my body up more cause my clubhead to rise and then I'd top the ball, meaning I'd hit the ball with the bottom of my clubhead therefore pushing it into the ground. Unless you're using a senior or ladies flex, it shouldn't be that big a deal. The single biggest reason people don't get distance from their clubs is that they don't hit the ball in the center of the clubface. Using a softer shaft than your swing speed requires might cost you some yards in distance, but it's not going to be the reason you mishit the ball. Believe me, I suck so I hit the same kind of shots that you do, but I know it's not the club because occasionally I do make good contact and the ball just goes gorgeously off the club. I can top the ball to make this little dribbler out of the tee box or hit low line drive hooks, but occasionally I hit it a long piercing straight drive. I'm not swinging slower, I'm just making better contact at the time. I can feel that I'm making solid contact.

The biggest thing I'm working on right now is my timing and tempo. When you swing slower your timing and tempo is a lot better. All your body parts are in sync so that all the power you're using is focused into the moment of impact and the club face is easier to square at impact. When you start to swing harder you can start losing that timing. Suddenly your hips are moving too fast and your arms can't up or wrists can't turnover quickly or something. When this happens the clubhead gets into weird positions and anything can happen from there. You will get good shots by simply hitting the ball on the center of a square clubface. As you improve you can increase your tempo so that you can swing in sync, but faster. That's different than just swinging harder. Concentrate on making good contact with a square clubface. That's the key.

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

...I would also appreciate that you read my posts completely before repeating the same advice on and on, I did read your repetitive posts and accept that you recommend what you think works for you again and again...

I have read your posts completely. Obviously, you don't read mine because you haven't answered any of my questions. I really would like to know your answers to my questions.

Repetitive posts? Please point to the repetitive posts, and I will delete them for you. The advice that I offer is not solely because it works for me, but because they work for many. Do you disagree with Kathy Whitworth's advice? If you don't agree with someone's advice, it's only fair that you explain why you don't agree. I don't believe that you have ever given an adequate explanation.

Please, tell me exactly what I have written that you believe is incorrect and why. I am completely open to learning. Are you?

[SDB1]

Get yourself some impact tape and see exactly where the ball is making contact with club! If you're not hitting it at or right near the center of the clubface then work on your swing it's that simple. First comes proper contact then comes equipment. I was recently having an issue with low ball flight with my driver and used some impact tape to see if I was making solid contact. What I found in the end is that the range where I was hitting balls uses tees that aren't high enough and I had to swing on a more level to decending path in order to get the ball in the air. This problem never showed up on the course because I could tee the ball to the proper height but it was driving me nuts at the range.

[TMAC]

How about forgetting about the mat/range tees for one thing? They will usually always make bad shots look better. Get in the grass, mate...
Also I think you need to work on shifting your weight back to the right side on the backswing. If your wife says you are leaning forward, chances are you are trapping the ball behind you; good for 1/2 wedge shots, but not much else. Besides, we know wives are never wrong. Good luck...

[Lowrider]

I will quote what I posted earlier for those that didnt read it...

The only club I practice from tee is the driver, all others from mat or grass...

After Golf-Adict recomended:

Try to learn hitting woods off the mat, not tee, then you would have the distance. It would improve your full swing feeling for the driver too.

I will add that I use a very short tee with woods and irons to play almost the same way I play from ground, also, since last month we are able to hit from grass on the range, so I hit all but the driver from grass, even though it is lousy grass...

I never said my swing was perfect, but I can see where the ball goes with the different options I try, today I was hitting perfect sweet spot, nice ring, strong tee off, but always along the ground, with severe distance reduction, even my friends told me to get rid of that shaft quickly...

when I try to hit woods, or long irons, too strong, I screw up, too many lost balls and points, at least it goes straight with a huge driver, it means a much better score, even when I dont shoot far...

I am living to the range to try the new shaft, will let you know the results...

[TMAC]

Good luck...I confess to not reading every word of every thread.

[Lowrider]

First, I am playing with a club again, not a whip...

After a dozen shots or so, I was playing with my Cleveland Launcher again, every shot flew more or less high, more or less far...

I still have my problem of drawing, but at least the balls fly again...

Wich goes to prove loft is not important, I do almost the same with 9.5* as with 13* loft, the shaft is, at least for beginners, or at least for me, the most important factor...

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Wich goes to prove loft is not important, I do almost the same with 9.5* as with 13* loft, the shaft is, at least for beginners, or at least for me, the most important factor...

How far is your carry distance with the 9.5 vs. the 13?

[Lowrider]

Hi Maveric,

I am not very consistent, but the distances are similarly variable, I have to confess I eventually did longer drives with the Cleveland, but only played less than 30 balls with the new driver/shaft...

I am still a beginner, regardless of driver, but at least the driver responds to my swing with this shaft...

Dont take my words wrong, I agree with your advice for good or want to be good players, but I am realistic and know my limitations...

By the way, a too pliable shaft will bent and de-loft the driver...

One funny story, today a friend went by and asked about my new driver, I told him it was a 13* loft, he imediately grimmed... then he took a shot... a very high and long shot... he just walked away quitely..

[maveric]

FYI, True Temper, the company that owns the Grafalloy brand, has an online interactive fitting guide at http://www.shaftfit.com.

What shaft do they recommend for you?

[Lowrider]

I tried your link, but I have no idea of my swing speed, it ended up sujesting a strange shaft for woods...

Anyway, I read that most casual golfers will benefit by using high loft drivers, and high loft work better with stiff shafts, unless you swing very slowly...

Believe me, when I swing a bit faster it bends and de-lofts enough to send the ball crawling, not that I am any good, but I am tallish, 6' 2", so there is too much speed for a soft shaft...

The guy at Nevada Bobs said the original shaft was so soft it would only work if I just dropped the club, too soft for any harder swing than that, and he said that after he changed the shaft, not before...

[pcdo]

Well I sitll think you're blaming the shaft too much. I play with a 10.5* regular shafted driver and I can get the ball into the air just fine. When I first started playing I was hitting my drives sky into the air. I was thinking my driver had way too much loft on it. Then I realized I was skying the ball off the top of the club head sending it upwards. When I started hitting it in the center of the face, then it took a normal trajectory. And don't believe you can feel when the ball hits the club face square because it's misleading. I've hit shots that have felt like butter, but when I look up the ball is going far left or right. Was it my club's fault? No, because I know I can hit it straight with good height and distance, so it must've been my swing. It's only when you have a good repeatable swing that you can really start telling the difference between equipment. Until then, you're going to be hitting shots all over the place no matter what club you use. I think the mistake new people make a lot is they switch equipment until they find what works, but usually what works is the equipment that hides they're swing flaws because that's the only club that'll get good results with a bad swing. For example with the lofts you'll only notice a difference if you're actually hitting your driver pure, but if you're topping, skying, hooking or slicing the shot, you'll never be able to tell the difference. When your swing gets better, then you can tell the difference more between clubs. You can hit a 5* driver with a senior flex shaft and if you hit it with a good swing I guarantee it won't be rolling on the ground out of the tee box. It won't give great results, but definitely not disasterous results.

[Lowrider]

Of course if I was a good player I could hit well with whatever club/shaft, but I am only a beginner, and a bad one, so I have to try to minimize my flaws...

At least with this shaft the ball gets airborne, when I dont miss too badly, so I only have to fix the direction...

[SDB1]

I'm a pretty good player and I can't play with any shaft head combination. If the shaft is too weak I'll never be able to get my tempo just perfect in order to hit solid shots consistently. Can a pro even swing a club at 60% of maximum on every shot? Probably not, it's a guessing game! You'll always have a wide dispersion.

On another note if the shaft is lagging, the clubface will be open at impact causing a fade or a slice not a draw or a hook like you describe in your swing. So if you're constantly drawing the ball, the lagging shaft theory doesn't hold any water.

[Lowrider]

I draw with the new stiffer shaft, not with the original lagging one, the problem is my follow-up, usually forget to do it straight, I pull the club to the left, the ball follows...

[dorkman53]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

I draw with the new stiffer shaft, not with the original lagging one, the problem is my follow-up, usually forget to do it straight, I pull the club to the left, the ball follows...

If you are playing with a 13 degree Launcher, it almost certainly has a closed face, which will contribute to a draw spin.

[Lowrider]

Today I opened the face of the club a bit and was extra carefull with follow-up... couldnt believe it was me playing a driver...

There was a very strong wind on my face, so strong my friends didnt go practice, and wedge shots would go up and fall back towards me...

Still my drives where the longest I ever shot, and only one weaker or draw out of five, the ball would go VERY high and pass 150 meters in the air, almost every shot...

[Brent Nadeau]

I don't want to re-open a can of worms, and if the new shaft/head combo is working for you then kudoes, but there is something I am having a great deal of difficulty wrapping my feable brain around. First off, I cannot see how a stiff, high kick shaft is going to help you get the ball airbourne better...a higher kick tends to create a lower flight. The other question is with the lag...my understanding is that a lighter flex shaft will snap through the ball at contact ahead of the kick-point, creating lift and draw spin. Unless I have not read your posts correctly, neither of these options should be a vaible solution to your problem. The other big issue would be your swing speed, as college suggested. If your swing speed is too low, a stiffer flex will cut your distance considerably. I think the one big thing college and a few others were trying to advise you on is not to become too dependant on equipment adjustments at an early stage in the learning curve. It is better to develop a decent swing and then get the equipment that matches it than it is to try changing equipment all the time and match a swing to it. You made a comment about some advice reflecting what works for others....well, I don't want to offend, but you, yourself have admitted that your swing needs work, so please remember that you don't know what works for you yet because your swing is not consistent enough. Your argument for setting up equipment that will promote better shooting has merit, but remember that you can be undermining your efforts if you place too much importance on the clubs themselves.

[Lowrider]

Who am I to contradict the experts...

On the other hand, maybe some of you are so convinced of what you know that you dont even try to understand what I am saying, or what happened with me and my driver, read HAPPENED...

I will try to explain again, first, I didnt invent anything, I only tried what I read from experts elsewhere, and it shouldnt be that difficult to understand that a shaft too soft is as bad as another too stiff if it doesnt match one's swing and the clubs head, even I understood it...

Cant you visualize the club head comming down too fast for the shaft, it will flex back too much and stay behind, so there will be no loft when it hits the ball, thats why only when I did swing VERY slow the ball would fly at all, capisce...

Now, beeing a beginner means I am not consistent, of course, but I still do some good shots, and I can see wich is wich, and dont confuse my bad swings with the club's adequacy or lack of it...

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Cant you visualize the club head comming down too fast for the shaft, it will flex back too much and stay behind, so there will be no loft when it hits the ball, thats why only when I did swing VERY slow the ball would fly at all, capisce...

Really, get your speed tested is the best option to find out if this is an issue, and is free. I think, speaking for myself and maybe some of the others, I tend to believe that because it sounded like you were semi-fitted for a 13 degree driver, that you most likely have a slower swing speed. If you have a fast enough swing speed to equate to a stiffer shaft, then you probably have a driver that is not lofted enough. If this is the case, then you should probably go back to the 9.5*, and would probably hit it much better, and see a noticable difference. This not being the case, I would tend to believe it is something in your swing mechanics.

To provide some examples. My wife has a 65-70 mile per hour swing speed, uses an 11* driver with a womens flex shaft with no issue. When I started, I had a 10.5* driver with a shaft rated to and 80 mph swing speed. Although I went to stiffer shaft driver when my swing speed got up to 105mph, I could still hit the one with the flex shaft. The result were not to terribly bad and did not consist of a low ball flight, it was actually a higher ball flight than I cared for.

Although the shaft could possibly be the problem, I tend to believe it is not because it is too flexible. I just think most of the people may feel like me (not sure though), and that is that you should probably not tinker with altering expensive equipment unless you do it under the recommendation of a professional that can view your swing and test you speed. It can get very costly and I think people may feel, as I do, that this is unnecessary because your money may be better spent on lessons, as your issue is more likely related to your swing and not your equipment. This is probably the main reason I mentioned opening the club face, so you can see if it is maybe a setup or swing issue.

Again this is really similar to the issues I had over the course of the last 6 weeks that I just gone done working through. I was absolutely disgusted with my new driver. I would have been far more disgusted had I spent alot of additional money on equipment changes, only to find I had the same issue. In all actuality, it was so bad, had I spent more money it would have probably delayed the process a few more months. With the troubles I had getting off the tee, I very well may have given up the game for the rest of the year or longer if this had gone on for 2 months more. Just don't get to a point where you find yourself in that position for simply trying to save $30 in lessons. If the driver issue is not related to setup and swing, you and your instructor can work on other things during that time.

Real simply, you have a $300-400 driver, I wouldn't turn it into a driver worth less than $50 simply to save $30 in professional advice.

[Lowrider]

I did take my lessons, but at the moment my coach is on vacation...

I wasnt fitted for my driver, as everybody kept saying 9.5 was too low for me, including my coach, I went and bought 13, not only for that reason, also because nowadays it is commonly recommended to use high loft drivers, unless you have low handicap, I am sure you read this as well...

I have nowhere I can measure my swing speed around here, but everybody could see the head of the driver staying behind on my swing, that shaft was much softer than my friend's regular flex on G2s and R5s...

I am sure if I was a better player I could find ways to play my driver with the standard shaft, but I am what I am...

I interpreted the symptoms, with the help of forums, my friends and the expert at Nevada Bobs, and fixed them, so I can play not perfect and still get good results...

Anyway, re-shafting a driver is very common, not strange or that fancy, is it...

[Brent Nadeau]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Who am I to contradict the experts...

On the other hand, maybe some of you are so convinced of what you know that you dont even try to understand what I am saying, or what happened with me and my driver, read HAPPENED...

I will try to explain again, first, I didnt invent anything, I only tried what I read from experts elsewhere, and it shouldnt be that difficult to understand that a shaft too soft is as bad as another too stiff if it doesnt match one's swing and the clubs head, even I understood it...

Cant you visualize the club head comming down too fast for the shaft, it will flex back too much and stay behind, so there will be no loft when it hits the ball, thats why only when I did swing VERY slow the ball would fly at all, capisce...

Now, beeing a beginner means I am not consistent, of course, but I still do some good shots, and I can see wich is wich, and dont confuse my bad swings with the club's adequacy or lack of it...

It would appear that my intentions, which were not to offend, were not successful...I also must clear up my confusing college and Maverick. If what you have done works for you..more power to you.

What I can visualize is this - when you swing and release the club properly, the shaft flexes from the kick-point down, putting the head of the club ahead of the shaft and grip, lofting the head. If you were swinging properly, the club head should not be lagging behind the swing with a softer flex..it should be way the hell out in front of it, imparting a hook...capisce?

Your swing-speed is the determining factor in shaft-flex selection, not the elevation of your ball flight. I agree that there are idiosyncacies in every swing. I tend to launch high shots. For this reason I tend to go no higher than 8.5* driver loft, and I always take mid to high kick-point shafts. At 115 mph, my swing speed necessitates stiff flex at the least. Go to a golf store and pick up one of those "bigstick" swing speed meters...don't buy it, just swing it like you would your driver...you'll get some idea of your speed. I am amazed that any fitter would change a shaft for you without first establishing a base-line swign speed. A 13* driver in my hands would feel like a long 60* wedge...I have hit 10.5* drivers and hated it, but that is me...I couldn't imagine hitting a 13*. I guess it would create straighter shots, but I would lose way too much distance. As Jayhawk said earlier, it just seems like a bit of a contradiction because a 13* driver is not a distance rig...it would be more like a bigger, more forgiving 3 wood...not as long as a driver, but easier to get into the air with a slower swing speed, and straighter. It is hard to imagine someone who needs a stiffer shaft using a driver with 13* of loft...it just goes against what we use or know...so once again, please don't be offended...just because what you are trying doesn't add up for one of us does not mean it is wrong for you.

[Lowrider]

Dont worry, I am not offended, it is just that I dont seem to be able to make my point...

What I can visualize is this - when you swing and release the club properly, the shaft flexes from the kick-point down, putting the head of the club ahead of the shaft and grip, lofting the head. If you were swinging properly, the club head should not be lagging behind the swing with a softer flex..it should be way the hell out in front of it, imparting a hook...capisce?

You are absolutely right, but you can also visualize, I am sure, if the shaft is too soft for the speed of the swing, the head will be behind the shaft, de-lofting the head. Now, if I swing properly, wich means very slow for that shaft, the head would indeed get in front imparting a very high and short shot... capisce...

That standard shaft has low kick-point and is softer than any regular shaft I have ever tried, maybe they made it for very "weak" players, because the driver has 13 loft... the techician at Nevada Bobs said that shaft was only good to be kind of dropped, not swung...

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

...Believe me, when I swing a bit faster it bends and de-lofts enough to send the ball crawling, not that I am any good, but I am tallish, 6' 2", so there is too much speed for a soft shaft...

Can you please explain exactly what you mean by "crawling"? Thanks.

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by maveric

Can you please explain exactly what you mean by "crawling"? Thanks.

You know what crawling means, imagine the ball has little arms and legs and crawls close to the ground, like we do in the army, a little faster, of course...

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

...I have nowhere I can measure my swing speed around here...

You definitely need to know your swing speed since it is one of the key factors to determine the optimum shaft for you. This Nevada Bobs offers complete club fitting. Virtually all golf stores are able to measure your swing speed for free, just ask. It helps them sell clubs!

[Letitroll98]

Hey Lowrider, I'm glad you got a shaft that works, however you got there. I read through the stuff the experts posted here and they are quite right for the most part, all of them professing the standard advice that a too soft flex would give you a major hook combined with inconsistant ball flight (etc, etc). I know what you were saying about the clubhead lagging behind and delofting, but it's just that we don't see this in practice. Almost never. So given a beginning golfer, one has to assume swing flaw. It's no bust on you, in fact the opposite. You seem to be a great guy and the posters seem to want to find an answer for you. It's just that your problem seems to be a real non-standard one and we are all having a hard time wrapping our minds around it.

But who can argue with results? As you freely admit, there may be other issues with your swing that you are working on, so what. By genius or dumb luck, you fixed one. Personally, I'm happy you are hitting the ball again. It doesn't mean that the above advice is invalid for 99% of new golfers, namely look to the swing before equipment. So keep in mind that fixing this one with new equipment doesn't mean that all problems are fixed that way, very few of them are.

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by Letitroll98

Hey Lowrider, I'm glad you got a shaft that works, however you got there. Personally, I'm happy you are hitting the ball again. It doesn't mean that the above advice is invalid for 99% of new golfers, namely look to the swing before equipment. So keep in mind that fixing this one with new equipment doesn't mean that all problems are fixed that way, very few of them are.

Thanks,

I am the first to acknowledge my shortcommings, after all, I only started playing Golf 7 months ago, already 56 years old, and never did any sport seriously, what I have going for me is that I am fit, (meaning slim and healthy), I can read, and can afford good gear...

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by maveric

You definitely need to know your swing speed since it is one of the key factors to determine the optimum shaft for you. This Nevada Bobs offers complete club fitting. Virtually all golf stores are able to measure your swing speed for free, just ask. It helps them sell clubs!

This is Portugal, "my" Nevada Bobs store had a simulator, but it broke and they didnt bother fixing it, what for, here in Portugal most people buy what is fashionable or what his friends use, non of my friends had any club fitted, they laugh at me when I sujest it...

Of course they still play better than me, but they have been playing for ages... they better beware, I am starting to score not in last place...

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

You are absolutely right, but you can also visualize, I am sure, if the shaft is too soft for the speed of the swing, the head will be behind the shaft, de-lofting the head.

It could actually be somewhat unpredictable, so this could possibly happen. Myself, I would think to fast of a swing that it would be more likely entirely close the face causing a hook because of a hooded clubface or a pull if you are coming over the top because your hands have started to release prior to the clubhead reaching the ball, or the clubface would remain open possibly causing anything from a high push to a slice because the torque would cause a more flexable shaft to open the clubface, if your hands have not begun to release.

I would really only imagine the scenario you menioned if you had a center shafted driver with a true pendulum swing.

This is just on my interpretation of the physics of speed during a golf swing.

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

This is Portugal, "my" Nevada Bobs store had a simulator, but it broke and they didnt bother fixing it, what for, here in Portugal most people buy what is fashionable or what his friends use, non of my friends had any club fitted, they laugh at me when I sujest it...

Of course they still play better than me, but they have been playing for ages... they better beware, I am starting to score not in last place...

Usually any clubmaker that can hold his water would have a portable swing speed tester which is smaller than a VHS tape and goes for about $150 USD, you do not need a simulator for this. As far as my mention of being "semi-fitted", I would think that you were. Unless your coach didn't watch you swing prior to recommending a driver, then I would find a new "coach" if that is the case. I am assuming we are talking about a golf coach, and not a basketball or football coach. I tend to believe if he/she knows anything about golf, enough to be a coach, he probably can tell roughly how fast you were swinging. If he recommend a 13* driver without out watching you swing or gaining general knowledge of how far you hit your clubs, I would tend to be leary of trusting his opinion in the future.

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

I would really only imagine the scenario you menioned if you had a center shafted driver with a true pendulum swing.

Why is that...

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

Unless your coach didn't watch you swing prior to recommending a driver, then I would find a new "coach" if that is the case. I am assuming we are talking about a golf coach, and not a basketball or football coach. I tend to believe if he/she knows anything about golf, enough to be a coach, he probably can tell roughly how fast you were swinging. If he recommend a 13* driver without out watching you swing or gaining general knowledge of how far you hit your clubs, I would tend to be leary of trusting his opinion in the future.

My coach is a good coach, he runs www.golfsurgery.com, all he said was that 9.5 was short for me, I picked the driver on my own...

[Brent Nadeau]

It is because of the torque effect on the shaft. The hosel of the driver is on the extreme left or right edge of the club head, depending on your dexterity. As you accelerate the club in your swing, air resistance and centrifugal forces will force the club head away from direction you are swinging, causing a twisting of the shaft away from the ball. As you release through the ball, the club shaft "unwraps" itself, closing through the impact. This is not such an issue with stiffer shafts, but if you are swinging a lighter flex very quickly it would be very pronounced. If your club were center-hoseled, there would be an equal mass on both sides of the shaft base, eliminating this torque effect.

[Brent Nadeau]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

My coach is a good coach, he runs www.golfsurgery.com, all he said was that 9.5 was short for me, I picked the driver on my own...

Could you explain what he meant by "short"? That you hit that loft too short for your potential?

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by Brent Nadeau

Could you explain what he meant by "short"? That you hit that loft too short for your potential?

He meant I needed more loft because I had trouble lifting the ball... The truth is I got better hitting it, and eventually I was managing to lift the ball about half of the shots, it was more a question of bad swing than the driver, as I can see now...

[maveric]

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

Usually any clubmaker that can hold his water would have a portable swing speed tester which is smaller than a VHS tape and goes for about $150 USD, you do not need a simulator for this..

Agreed. Most golf stores, club repair shops, and instructors have a device such as the Beltronics SwingMate. Ask about it the next time you visit your golf store or instructor.

When you get tested, be sure to swing normally. Many people swing much harder than usual because of ego. This will only lead to inaccurate results and a poor fitting recommendation.

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Why is that...

Originally Posted by Brent Nadeau

It is because of the torque effect on the shaft. The hosel of the driver is on the extreme left or right edge of the club head, depending on your dexterity. As you accelerate the club in your swing, air resistance and centrifugal forces will force the club head away from direction you are swinging, causing a twisting of the shaft away from the ball. As you release through the ball, the club shaft "unwraps" itself, closing through the impact. This is not such an issue with stiffer shafts, but if you are swinging a lighter flex very quickly it would be very pronounced. If your club were center-hoseled, there would be an equal mass on both sides of the shaft base, eliminating this torque effect.

Exactly, what Brent Said.

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by maveric

Agreed. Most golf stores, club repair shops, and instructors have a device such as the Beltronics SwingMate. Ask about it the next time you visit your golf store or instructor.

When you get tested, be sure to swing normally. Many people swing much harder than usual because of ego. This will only lead to inaccurate results and a poor fitting recommendation.

Believe me, I would like to know my swing speed, particularly because I am curious, I dont think I will change my clubs soon, at least I hope so...

I never heard any of my friends mentioning their swing speed, and they have been playing for over 10 years as far as I know, I doubt the store will have the tools, on the other hand there are sometimes brand test days with a fitting truck, maybe they will have it...

Another example, I bought used a Callaway Hawkeye 23* with a regular shaft, but quite soft as well, and a Cleveland Launcher 17* with stiff shaft, I much prefer to hit the later, unfortunatelly I am not yet consistent enough to use either, thats why I bought the hybrids...

[Brent Nadeau]

If you are having the most success with stiff flex, then that is probably what you should be swinging. Even still, your speed would be very important to know because there is no conventions in flex between manufacturers, so a stiff Cleveland will be different than a stiff Callaway...and those are stock models. Another this you might want to consider are the differences between torque and kick-point of the shafts...these may be contributing factors in your preference, and not the flex itself.

The distance you get on a good drive is some indication of your swing speed...not extremely accurate, but a general indication. How far do your good drives go on the course?

You mentioned earlier that you felt you had to swing softly to get any distance from the regular flex. One parting note I will leave with you is that I almost always get more distance and control with smoother tempoed, slower swings than I do when I go at it to hard, and I drive at an average of 290 yards. Ernie Els, himself, said he almost never gets more distance from swinging harder. If you can find that happy medium between the proper flex and a smoothe tempo you will have a ball.

[Finch]

So your not using your launcher anymore?

i'll take it off your hand's if you want

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by Finch

So your not using your launcher anymore?

i'll take it off your hand's if you want

Too late, I sold it to a friend, and I regret it, my son just started playing Golf, and he could use it eventually...

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

...Believe me, when I swing a bit faster it bends and de-lofts enough to send the ball crawling, not that I am any good, but I am tallish, 6' 2", so there is too much speed for a soft shaft...You know what crawling means, imagine the ball has little arms and legs and crawls close to the ground, like we do in the army, a little faster, of course...

I think that I'm a little "lost in translation." Just so that everyone understands exactly what you are trying to say, do you agree with the following statement about your problem:

Your swing speed is so fast that it bends a soft flex, low kickpoint shaft severely. As a result, the clubhead de-lofts and strikes the ball with little or no effective launch angle. The club actually shoots the ball into the ground, sending it "crawling."

Please feel free to correct this statement so that it is crystal clear for everyone to understand. Thanks.

[SDB1]

I see this topic has turned into a hot one so I'd like to post some points and get some response. In my own experience I've found the exact opposite of what everyone is saying to happen in my swing. When I first started playing I bought some regular flex graphite shafted irons and developed a homegrown swing over the course of about a year. I was pretty straight but faded or sliced my long irons and woods. Then I wanted some decent clubs and purchased some stiff steel shafted titleist irons. With this new set I was fairly straight and my slice turned into a nice fade. After about a year I notice my fade had become very pronounced so I went to get some lessons because everyone says "it's not the arrow"!! Well the instructor says I'm not closing the face through impact and I need to try and turn my wrists over from the top of the swing through impact. This is working occasionally but is super uncomfortable and highly inconsistent. My swing now feels like a train wreck and I've lost all confidence on the course. By the way, at this time I'm shooting right in the low 90's all the time.

I couldn't take it anymore, so I go see a clubfitter and he measures my swing speed at the time at 116mph and suggests X-stiff shafts in all my clubs. He tells me " the clubface is lagging at impact and is twisted open upon contact with the ball. The results of which can be obviosly seen through the shots taken with the high speed camera. Sure I say, reshaft em!

The next week I play my first round with new shafts and what do you know? Instant draw! Oh geez, but how can that be? I felt like a total ass for going so long and not looking at equipment. My scores immediately dropped to the high 80's and now a year later I play to a 5 handicap which drops about 1 index point every month.

Anyway, I no longer will tell anyone not to get their equipment checked first, and the phrase "it's not the Arrow, it's the Indian" just makes me laugh. I feel bad for all the people who actually preach this garbage! You can't possibly know other people's situations. Does living by this mantra actually work for you guys or are you in denial!

[Brent Nadeau]

Anyway, I no longer will tell anyone not to get their equipment checked first, and the phrase "it's not the Arrow, it's the Indian" just makes me laugh. I feel bad for all the people who actually preach this garbage! You can't possibly know other people's situations. Does living by this mantra actually work for you guys or are you in denial![/quote]

...no denial here - if you have read any of my posts you would know flat out that I made significant changes in my equipment over the past year, and, IMHO, it has been successful. Before changing to my current irons, I had my older set fitted, and there was an obvious improvement. But the reason I changed my shafts from regular to stiff was because they were promoting too much draw in the swing. If your iron swing is as fast as you sa, then I guess it's possible the head would lag since iron shots aren't released until after the impact.

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by SDB1

I feel bad for all the people who actually preach this garbage! You can't possibly know other people's situations. Does living by this mantra actually work for you guys or are you in denial!

I tend to believe what you are saying is actually is support of what is being said in here for this reason.

Originally Posted by SDB1

I couldn't take it anymore, so I go see a clubfitter and he measures my swing speed...

It has been said probably a half dozen times. You can only make the comment so much, and if the person doesn't follow the information, you can simply provide your idea on the situation and send them on their way. I am a little surprise your instructor didn't catch the problem for you as well. Using a regular flex shaft with a swing speed of 116 mph. The guy must have been teaching with his eyes closed. Heck, he must have had his ears closed as well, you can hear that kind of thing.

Just my opinion, but you seem fairly critical of people who give their opinion. I would just ask if 6-7 people told you to have your speed tested before you finally chose to heed the advice.

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by SDB1

I couldn't take it anymore, so I go see a clubfitter and he measures my swing speed at the time at 116mph and suggests X-stiff shafts in all my clubs. He tells me " the clubface is lagging at impact and is twisted open upon contact with the ball. The results of which can be obviosly seen through the shots taken with the high speed camera. Sure I say, reshaft em!

You mean kind of like what was said in the last part of this?

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

It could actually be somewhat unpredictable, so this could possibly happen. Myself, I would think to fast of a swing that it would be more likely entirely close the face causing a hook because of a hooded clubface or a pull if you are coming over the top because your hands have started to release prior to the clubhead reaching the ball, or the clubface would remain open possibly causing anything from a high push to a slice because the torque would cause a more flexable shaft to open the clubface, if your hands have not begun to release.

I would really only imagine the scenario you menioned if you had a center shafted driver with a true pendulum swing.

This is just on my interpretation of the physics of speed during a golf swing.

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Why is that...

Originally Posted by Brent Nadeau

It is because of the torque effect on the shaft. The hosel of the driver is on the extreme left or right edge of the club head, depending on your dexterity. As you accelerate the club in your swing, air resistance and centrifugal forces will force the club head away from direction you are swinging, causing a twisting of the shaft away from the ball. As you release through the ball, the club shaft "unwraps" itself, closing through the impact. This is not such an issue with stiffer shafts, but if you are swinging a lighter flex very quickly it would be very pronounced. If your club were center-hoseled, there would be an equal mass on both sides of the shaft base, eliminating this torque effect.

I guess if you read enough of the "garbage" you may find some information. Although you would have had to wade through the six or seven mentions of getting you speed tested before reaching that point.

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by SDB1

I no longer will tell anyone not to get their equipment checked first, and the phrase "it's not the Arrow, it's the Indian" just makes me laugh. I feel bad for all the people who actually preach this garbage! You can't possibly know other people's situations. Does living by this mantra actually work for you guys or are you in denial!

Eheheh, good to know I am not the only one to think different...

I still think it is mainly the Indian, but the arrow can help more than some will admit...

Now I am a power hitter with my driver, just kidding, it feels like that because before the ball crawlled instead of flying as it does now, no more shame on the tee, now I play the driver like everyone else...

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by maveric

I think that I'm a little "lost in translation." Just so that everyone understands exactly what you are trying to say, do you agree with the following statement about your problem:

Your swing speed is so fast that it bends a soft flex, low kickpoint shaft severely. As a result, the clubhead de-lofts and strikes the ball with little or no effective launch angle. The club actually shoots the ball into the ground, sending it "crawling."

Please feel free to correct this statement so that it is crystal clear for everyone to understand. Thanks.

If you are trying to make fun of me, please go play somewhere else...

But that is exactly what happens with the Ignite original regular shaft, not with any other regular shaft I tried... Do you understand now...

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by SDB1

Anyway, I no longer will tell anyone not to get their equipment checked first, and the phrase "it's not the Arrow, it's the Indian" just makes me laugh. I feel bad for all the people who actually preach this garbage! You can't possibly know other people's situations. Does living by this mantra actually work for you guys or are you in denial!

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Eheheh, good to know I am not the only one to think different...

I still think it is mainly the Indian, but the arrow can help more than some will admit...

Now I am a power hitter with my driver, just kidding, it feels like that because before the ball crawlled instead of flying as it does now, no more shame on the tee, now I play the driver like everyone else...

If this is the type of answer you were looking for by posing the question, I'm just a little PO'ed that we all wasted our time trying to provide well thought out insight on your issue. It would have been much easier to just say "Shorten the shaft, and if it doesn't work, buy a new one"

I personally will not make the same mistake a second time. I want the last five days of my life back.

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

If this is the type of answer you were looking for by posing the question, I'm just a little PO'ed that we all wasted our time trying to provide well thought out insight on your issue. It would have been much easier to just say "Shorten the shaft, and if it doesn't work, buy a new one"

I personally will not make the same mistake a second time. I want the last five days of my life back.

Dont tell me you didnt have fun with all the atempts to make me look like a fool...

I read all the opinions for and against mine, (unlike some guys on this thread), then I go out and experiment, sometimes it works, others it doesnt, isnt it the same with everybody else...

[Brent Nadeau]

I think one very important aspect of this whole conversation has been lost somewhere in the mud-slinging. The whole issue of the arrows versus the indian is a double-edged sword, because valid arguments can be made on two seperate fronts:

1. a golfer who either a. doesn't want to play with frustrations that can accompany more demanding equipment on their way to developing a solid swing; or b. a golfer who simply wants something that gets more results without demanding improvement would probably not care if they are using the best arrow money can buy, but would be much more interested in an arrow that suits their swing current swing, however flawed it may be...this would place great emphasis on the arrow.
2. some of these arrows, blades in particular, will demand that a golfer become the best indian he can be.

This whole thread was about adjusting equipment to fit someone's swing. Not once did anyone say anything against someone having their equipment fitted...everyone should do that if they want to play with any level of seriousness. The only issue that developed in this thread were from the perceived inconsistancies between the poster's problem and what he felt were the causes of it. I find it odd that the original poster, while agreeing with SDB1 on the arrow but not the indian logic said earlier in the thread that, were he a better golfer, he would be able to play any equipment proficiently. It is this sort of contradiction that has made this thread so difficult to understand, and yet so entertaining at the same time.

You seem satisfied with the results of your adjustment, and that is great. I hope that it will work for you as long as possible, but you will probably find that you will be adjusting a lot as your swing develops...that is, for many, one of the joys of this sport. As this progresses, you will find yourself on here asking about every purchase you make, or even plan to make. Some responses will be favorable, some not so much. Some will be entertaining, some annoying, but the vast majority will be given with the best of intentions. My advice is take all of them as sincere because most people want to help, and will share what works for them, even though it might not necessarily work for you. Don't make the mistake of siding only with those responses that agree with your own. Some very valid questiosn were asked by Maverick that you disregarded because you felt snubbed by his initial agressiveness (no one said you were wrong in this either, but once you're on here for a while you will see that he tends to be curt and to the point). How far you tee the ball ahead and how high you ball is teed are very important. He was asking for clarification because he couldn't see your swing, and wanted as clear a mental picture as possible to help you, not mock you. Your first response to me could be taken as a bit aggressive as well. Your quoting of SDB1's "garbage" comment was not only aggressive, but insulting, as Jayhawk pointed out, because you basically trivialized every ounce of effort we made to help you. No one set out to make you look like a fool...you asked for information and opinions, and got valid answers from people that, given your admitted beginner status, know more about it than you, and by all appearances, the person you call a coach. No one set out to make you look like a fool - you did that all on your own...capisce?

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by Brent Nadeau

I find it odd that the original poster, while agreeing with SDB1 on the arrow but not the indian logic said earlier in the thread that, were he a better golfer, he would be able to play any equipment proficiently. It is this sort of contradiction that has made this thread so difficult to understand, and yet so entertaining at the same time.

Your sentence above is not fair, please read my comment to the arrow but not the indian logic:

I still think it is mainly the Indian, but the arrow can help more than some will admit...

I checked the Golfsmith Clubmaker page sujjested by Maverick on another thread, if they are right, I should be using stiff shafts...

From 150 yards I used my Mizuno 7 iron, graphite shaft, now I use NIKE 6 iron wich is steel, shorter .50"

[dorkman53]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Your sentence above is not fair, please read my comment to the arrow but not the indian logic:



I checked the Golfsmith Clubmaker page sujjested by Maverick on another thread, if they are right, I should be using stiff shafts...

From 150 yards I used my Mizuno 7 iron, graphite shaft, now I use NIKE 6 iron wich is steel, shorter .50"

Unfortunately, basing shaft choice based on swingspeed is an exercise in guesswork at best. Different brands have different degrees of stiffness for a stated flex. Some are more butt stiff; others more tip stiff, or both, or neither. A person with a smooth tempo may benefit from a different flex than someone with the same swingspeed who has a more rapid acceleration or more rapid tempo. It is a gross oversimplification for Golfsmith or anybody else to make recommendations solely on swingspeed. Swingspeed is only a starting point in shaft selection, not an end in itself.

[Lowrider]

Originally Posted by dorkman53

Unfortunately, basing shaft choice based on swingspeed is an exercise in guesswork at best. Different brands have different degrees of stiffness for a stated flex. Some are more butt stiff; others more tip stiff, or both, or neither. A person with a smooth tempo may benefit from a different flex than someone with the same swingspeed who has a more rapid acceleration or more rapid tempo. It is a gross oversimplification for Golfsmith or anybody else to make recommendations solely on swingspeed. Swingspeed is only a starting point in shaft selection, not an end in itself.

I know, I picked my shafts not having any idea of my swing speed...

I checked Goldsmith because some guys here seem to think knowing my swing speed is absolutely undispensable..

[maveric]

Your supposition that your swing speed is fast enough to bend the shaft so that the ball is launched with little or no effective launch angle ignores the fact that the shaft unloads, or kicks forward, during the downswing prior to impact. As a result, the more flexible the shaft, the more that the head will kick forward and add velocity and loft. Therefore, all other things being equal, softer shafts provide more distance and a higher trajectory than their stiffer siblings. I've even heard that golfers with extremely fast swing speeds that use the stiffest shafts available, like Tiger Woods, would also achieve greater distance and a higher trajectory from a regular flex shaft.

[SDB1]

Originally Posted by maveric

Your supposition that your swing speed is fast enough to bend the shaft so that the ball is launched with little or no effective launch angle ignores the fact that the shaft unloads, or kicks forward, during the downswing prior to impact. As a result, the more flexible the shaft, the more that the head will kick forward and add velocity and loft. Therefore, all other things being equal, softer shafts provide more distance and a higher trajectory than their stiffer siblings. I've even heard that golfers with extremely fast swing speeds that use the stiffest shafts available, like Tiger Woods, would also achieve greater distance and a higher trajectory from a regular flex shaft.

Higher trajectory yes, greater distance no. There is a misconception that higher always equals longer and this just isn't true. A higher trajectory only benefits people who have a hard time launching the ball at the proper trajectory. For people who don't have this problem a more lofted clubhead and weaker shaft will just rob you of distance. Plus they'll only be able to hit maybe 1 out of ten drives accurately because the shaft is twisting and bending all over the place.

[Lowrider]

We could argue until our faces turn blue and still not agree...

What happened with me and my driver had an obvious and simple explanation, wich was proven by the results, I am sorry you could not witness it, I dont see what reason I could have to lie, and what reason you have not to believe me...

What happens with Tiger might be simple or not, but it sure is not comparable...

By the way, yesterday I played 18 holes with the same ball, first time ever, it says something about my "new" driving accuracy...

[PA Jayhawk]

O.K. Let me sum this up just to make sure I know where we stand right now

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

The other thing I did, which was certainly not a "fix", and is actually not the best of things to do, nor would I recommend doing it for more than a couple shots in a round, but is a good way to get over the mental side. I would rest the club head on the ground at set up to see the proper angle and loft, I would then just open the clubface up a few degrees. This would result in a high push to the right. After seeing I could get the ball that high in the air, I would ease my way back to the straight shot or draw that I am used to. I think I would actual hood the clubface a little and didn't know.

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Today I opened the face of the club a bit and was extra carefull with follow-up... couldnt believe it was me playing a driver...

Still my drives where the longest I ever shot, and only one weaker or draw out of five, the ball would go VERY high and pass 150 meters in the air, almost every shot...

Originally Posted by SDB1

Anyway, I no longer will tell anyone not to get their equipment checked first, and the phrase "it's not the Arrow, it's the Indian" just makes me laugh. I feel bad for all the people who actually preach this garbage! You can't possibly know other people's situations. Does living by this mantra actually work for you guys or are you in denial!

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Eheheh, good to know I am not the only one to think different...

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

If this is the type of answer you were looking for by posing the question, I'm just a little PO'ed that we all wasted our time trying to provide well thought out insight on your issue. It would have been much easier to just say "Shorten the shaft, and if it doesn't work, buy a new one"

I personally will not make the same mistake a second time. I want the last five days of my life back.

Originally Posted by Lowrider

Dont tell me you didnt have fun with all the atempts to make me look like a fool...

Originally Posted by maveric

Your supposition that your swing speed is fast enough to bend the shaft so that the ball is launched with little or no effective launch angle ignores the fact that the shaft unloads, or kicks forward, during the downswing prior to impact. As a result, the more flexible the shaft, the more that the head will kick forward and add velocity and loft. Therefore, all other things being equal, softer shafts provide more distance and a higher trajectory than their stiffer siblings. I've even heard that golfers with extremely fast swing speeds that use the stiffest shafts available, like Tiger Woods, would also achieve greater distance and a higher trajectory from a regular flex shaft.

Originally Posted by Lowrider

We could argue until our faces turn blue and still not agree...

What happened with me and my driver had an obvious and simple explanation, wich was proven by the results, I am sorry you could not witness it, I dont see what reason I could have to lie, and what reason you have not to believe me...

...Now, from what I understand, Lowrider is still argueing with all the people that tried to help him, that this is an equipment issue and was corrected by an equipment fix. Although, I never saw any mention of an equipment fix, he seems to want to side that he only agrees with the guy who recommended an equipment fix simply because it matched his initial inclination, everyone else was just mocking and making fun of him and he doesn't want to have to stress this point until his is "Blue in the face"

Glad that is all cleared up, next time he post's an issue, I can assure you that I will just agree with what he says and move on with my life.

[PA Jayhawk]

...and just so you do not feel I am mocking you, I will even make an equipment recommendation. The top one on this web site should make for a great driver that will allow you to get the ball in the air, since we know it is the equipment.
Driver Recommendation

[dorkman53]

Originally Posted by PA Jayhawk

...and just so you do not feel I am mocking you, I will even make an equipment recommendation. The top one on this web site should make for a great driver that will allow you to get the ball in the air, since we know it is the equipment.
Driver Recommendation

I'm waiting for the 100 degree wedge. Sometimes I need to hit the ball backwards.........

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by dorkman53

I'm waiting for the 100 degree wedge. Sometimes I need to hit the ball backwards.........

I already have one, my wife is left handed

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

...Still my drives where the longest I ever shot, and only one weaker or draw out of five, the ball would go VERY high and pass 150 meters in the air, almost every shot...

Originally Posted by Lowrider

...From 150 yards I used my Mizuno 7 iron, graphite shaft, now I use NIKE 6 iron wich is steel, shorter .50"

If I am not mistaken, 1 yard = 0.9144 meter. Therefore, 150 meters equals 164.04 yards, correct?

So the difference between your 6-iron and your driver is 14.04 yards, correct?

[Lowrider]

You are so smart, what are you doing waisting your time here...

I recommend you work on your reading skills, or maybe your small brain can only grasp one sentence at a time...

[Letitroll98]

Originally Posted by maveric

If I am not mistaken, 1 yard = 0.9144 meter. Therefore, 150 meters equals 164.04 yards, correct?

So the difference between your 6-iron and your driver is 14.04 yards, correct?

Yes, I was somewhat confused by this as well. Although Lowrider seems to state that he is driving well and in the fairway with this new driver. Around here on several holes the fairway cannot be reached with a 150 yd drive, so maybe something didn't get translated correctly? Anyway, the new equipment works well, be happy for him.

No bust on Lowrider, but because he is new to golf, I don't think we can rely on all of his conclusions. I'm happy to try to help because he seems like an ok guy and he's trying to figure out six gajillion things we all know a new golfer gets thrown at them. Lowrider, just don't get stuck on one thing, this is a process, one that many of us have been at for years. You are very unlikely to figure out "the answer" right off the bat. It's hard, that's what makes it good.

BTW, my signature is not an attack on anyone, it's a mildly humerous statement I heard around a bar room pool table many years ago. It wasn't God speaking at the time so chill. I'm of the school that working on your swing will do much more for your game than buying the latest and greatest every three months, but it doesn't mean that having well made, well fitting equipment is a bad thing. If your pro (NOT the one selling you the clubs) says your equipment is holding you back, hey, go for the change. I'm lucky in that the many fittings I've had over the years all read standard lie, standard length, regular/stiff flex, so I can play just about anything off the rack. Peace out.

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

...What happened with me and my driver had an obvious and simple explanation, wich was proven by the results, I am sorry you could not witness it, I dont see what reason I could have to lie, and what reason you have not to believe me... ...

The problem is that I believe that you have made an incorrect conclusion. If it is "an obvious and simple explanation," then there should be plenty of written documentation available from reliable sources to support your claim that "your swing speed is so fast that it bends a soft flex, low kickpoint shaft severely. As a result, the clubhead de-lofts and strikes the ball with little or no effective launch angle. The club actually shoots the ball into the ground, sending it 'crawling.'"

I believe that I speak for the vast majority of members here (please let me know if I don't) when I ask that you please provide support for your claim from a reliable golf source. A link to an article that supports your claim from Golf Digest Magazine, Golf Magazine, Golf Tips Magazine, or other valid source would suffice. Your claim runs contrary to widely-held golf principles so it's only natural that people question it. If you cannot provide support for your claim, then I suggest that you reconsider your claim. In the future, I recommend that you have adequate support for any claim that you make.

I believe that I can provide support for any claims that I make and I am happy to do so. If I am asked to provide support for any of my claims and I can't, then I will gladly retract any such claim. I hope that others feel the same.

How carefully have you considered that the reason "the ball just crawls" when you hit your driver hard is not an equipment problem at all, but may be entirely a swing problem? Have you ever heard of "topping the ball" or "hitting the ball thin"? We have mentioned it before, but it seems that you have not addressed this possibility. Topping the ball is "hitting the top half of the ball rather than the bottom, resulting in it scuffing along the turf in a very unsatisfactory manner." Also, "topping is a shot in which the ball bounds along the ground without getting airborne." Finally, "Of course, some balls when struck above the equator of the ball with the leading edge of the driver may achieve topspin. And they'll hit the ground just inches from the tee." Does this sound familiar?

Did you follow SDB1's excellent advice to "get yourself some impact tape and see exactly where the ball is making contact with club"? You can also sprinkle talcum powder on the clubface. This is the easiest method to determine whether you are topping the ball. I am certain that all of your "crawling" driver shots made contact with the ball very low on the clubface. I bet that you can't hit a "crawling" driver shot with any shaft as long as you as you strike the ball in the center of the clubface.

It's obvious to me and probably everyone else reading this thread that you are a rather close-minded individual. Many people here, including me, have tried to help you but it is frustrating when you are already set in your ways. Tiger Woods could tell you, "if I had weaker shafts I'd hit the ball farther" and you would still not believe him because it does not agree with your conclusions. I only continue to post in this thread to ensure that others don't suffer from flawed logic and conclusions.

I sincerely hope that you eventually become a proficient golfer some day. If you do, I hope that you will revisit this forum and carefully re-read your comments here. I think that you may feel drastically different about things. Good luck.

[SDB1]

There really isn't any point for this thread to continue on. Nobody knows for sure what this guys problem is or what will help him. All we can do is offer advice so that he may experiment and come to his own conclusion. It is this experimentation, both with swing changes and equipment changes that will lead to the ultimate conclusion and also increase his knowledge of both his swing and his equipment in the process. Let's face it most of us learned the most about our games through good old fashiond trial and error. He may get to the end result faster through an instructor or clubfitter but he wouldn't understand the reasoning behind it so ultimately this is probably the best path for him.

[Lowrider]

You are all right, I know nothing, you know all, bye bye, I will go and play Golf, forget about forums...

[dorkman53]

Originally Posted by Lowrider

You are all right, I know nothing, you know all, bye bye, I will go and play Golf, forget about forums...

Seriously, though, it is difficult for anyone to accurately assess and advise on any particular problem. All people can do is offer possibilities, and it is up to the reader to take each suggestion with as many grains of salt as seems appropriate and take any action based on the assessment of the credibility of the advice. Certainly the board is no substitute for lessons, the input of a skilled clubmaker, or any other expert advice. "You get what you pay for'", and the free advice should be worth every penny!
In my line of work, there are certain problems that I can assess and make recommendations right over the phone, but with most situations, a hands on assessment is what is necessary.
Good luck.

[PA Jayhawk]

Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out

[bethpage caddy]

Oh yeah, keep your head down too, I'm surprised the army hasn't taught you that.

[SDB1]

Don't keep your head down, keep your eyes glued to the ball. You have to move your head!

[maveric]

I'm willing to bet $20 that this guy starts topping the ball again within the next month with his new stiff flex Grafalloy Blue shaft. Any takers?

I wonder if he'll re-shaft with X-flex shafts to fix those pesky worm-burners! Another $20 says he does...

[Brent Nadeau]

Originally Posted by maveric

I'm willing to bet $20 that this guy starts topping the ball again within the next month with his new stiff flex Grafalloy Blue shaft. Any takers?

I wonder if he'll re-shaft with X-flex shafts to fix those pesky worm-burners! Another $20 says he does...

I think he should dump the driver and start using a 1 iron...that'll take care of those burners...

[PA Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Brent Nadeau

I think he should dump the driver and start using a 1 iron...that'll take care of those burners...

Although the 1i may have less loft than his driver, and provide more distance and a lower trajectory for that shaft bending speed, it would infact probably fix his problem. It may tear the poor arms and legs of the ball so it can no longer "Crawl"

[Brent Nadeau]

Yeah...that's what I meant...not....thanks for ruining my sarcasm, Jayhawk...although I would love to see this guy hit a 1i if he can't get a 13* driver in the air...