Shaft too flexible ???

[Horseballs]

If you find my replies very long, uninteresting and tiresome, then by all means, do not read them. They are probably that way for a reason, I like to try and make certain that people understand fully what I am saying. But on the otherhand, maybe you should considering not passing judgement on people for replies that you chose not too read.
Maybe you should stick to reading and responding to replies of people that only carry a single digit handicap, or at least those that you feel in your heart can carry a single digit handicap, if that is you sole basis for judging the validity in their comments.
If this is what you want to base you entire understanding of the thread, for simply being to lazy to read the rest, then by all means do. I usually prefer to have all of the information, and try to understand why a comment was made, prior to making it the entire foundation of my judgement.
edit 1 - and by all means, have the last word, I'm still very interested in knowing how you would have better handled the situation, enlighten me. It would mean so much coming from someone with a handcap index under 10.

A.) I'm not lazy, I actually work and cannot possibly keep up with the dizzying pace of your posts.
B.) I do understand why the majority of your comments are made, without suffering through all the whiney defensive drivel. You feel some need to weigh in on everything. You can't help it.
C.) I personally would have made one or two posts to try to help. Anything more is preaching from a high horse. It's just not my personality (10 hcap, 50 hcap, etc.)
D.) I don't judge someone's merit solely based on handicap. But advice in the expert tone you portray SHOULD come from someone at the top of the game. It's merely false advertising and can get annoying. Kinda like that guy you get paired up with you knows everything about everything but can't hit the ball worth a darn...
E.) That's my 2 post limit on this subject.

[maveric]

Turns out it's just a bunch of people picking on Lowrider. Not very funny though, or helpful...

If you had read this thread from the beginning, you would have realized that this is not the case at all.

Many members wrote thoughtful and valid responses to the OP. However, the OP dismissed about 90% of the responses and began to postulate his own theories about the golf shaft. When asked to provide support for his claims, he was unable to do so. Instead, the OP resorted to personal assaults on fellow members.

If you comment on a thread as a whole, please at least read the whole thread before commenting.

[Horseballs]

If you had read this thread from the beginning, you would have realized that this is not the case at all.

Many members wrote thoughtful and valid responses to the OP. However, the OP dismissed about 90% of the responses and began to postulate his own theories about the golf shaft. When asked to provide support for his claims, he was unable to do so. Instead, the OP resorted to personal assaults on fellow members.

If you comment on a thread as a whole, please at least read the whole thread before commenting.

During my lunch break, I read through this entire 100+ post thread on the advice of Maveric. I've come to a few conclusions about it...

1. Maveric, you made 15 posts to this thread. The very first post had the tone of an schoolmaster dressing down an insolent child. Lowrider is a 56 year old beginning the game. Have a little bit of respect and patience. Lowrider replied (very correctly),

Originally Posted by Lowrider
Sometimes you are too aggressive with your comments...

One of this days you will understand that what is good for you might not be for everybody else...

Your very next post (#17) was so self-aggrandizing and condescending to Lowrider that I laughed when I read it. I figured you were joking, but there were no tell-tale smiley faces.

2. Lowrider is now on the defensive, because he is being harassed and made fun of. I believe he is trying to bow out of the thread on his next post (#18), but Maveric just won't let him out with any dignity. I could go on here, but it's redundant.

3. What ends up happening is, Lowrider buys a new shaft and starts (he believes) hitting the ball in the air because of this. Does this have any technical basis to it? Probably not. The new shaft most likely had a placebo effect (kind of like the whole new putter argument), and he gains confidence in his driver swing. Lowrider is now in good spirits.

4. Until Maveric comes in to contest yet another one of Lowriders statements.

Originally Posted by maveric
I think that I'm a little "lost in translation." Just so that everyone understands exactly what you are trying to say, do you agree with the following statement about your problem:

Your swing speed is so fast that it bends a soft flex, low kickpoint shaft severely. As a result, the clubhead de-lofts and strikes the ball with little or no effective launch angle. The club actually shoots the ball into the ground, sending it "crawling."

Please feel free to correct this statement so that it is crystal clear for everyone to understand. Thanks.

You may be absolutely right about this, Maveric, but Lowrider basically wants nothing to do with you at this point and tells you to go play somewhere else if you are going to continue making fun of him. It's like your trying to catch him in some kind of lie in order to expose a level of golf genious to the grateful internet forum. It's obviously not to help Lowrider out at this point. If you are truly upset and frustrated with his replies and postings, you can stop at any time. No one is paid for their GR forum advice. What exactly was your point here if I'm wrong?

5. The only person he has said anything that could be considered insulting towards is Maveric. He is then promptly slammed by PA Jayhawk.

6. Horseballs sees the new activity in the thread, reads the new stuff and says, "Looks like a lot of people are picking on Lowrider." Now that I have read this entire pointless thread, I still believe I was right. Maveric, you owe me one lunch hour.

7. I'll concede that there was some good advice offered in the beginning of the thread. But people can get downright nasty if their advice is questioned.

HB

[shooter mcgavin]

That was a great post.

[maveric]

...1. Maveric, you made 15 posts to this thread. The very first post had the tone of an schoolmaster dressing down an insolent child....

I reread my first post and I disagree. I simply tried to dispell the unconventional notion that a stiffer shaft will produce a higher trajectory and further distance. Using properly fitted golf shafts is very important and I didn't want other members to receive improper information.

This is not a case of a differnce in opinions. The OP's theories contradicts proven and well-established research about the golf shaft. It's like someone trying to tell people that the world is flat. You need to nip such unsubstantiated theories in the bud. Never once did the OP present reliable support for his theories nor did anyone else concur.

Actually, if you read the past posts that the OP has made (in other threads), you'll find that he has a history of "insolent" behavior. Before you comment on other members' reaction to the OP, I suggest that you read the OP's past comments prior to this thread. I think that you'll feel very differently once you understand the complete picture.

[maveric]

...4. Until Maveric comes in to contest yet another one of Lowriders statements.

Originally Posted by maveric
I think that I'm a little "lost in translation." Just so that everyone understands exactly what you are trying to say, do you agree with the following statement about your problem:

Your swing speed is so fast that it bends a soft flex, low kickpoint shaft severely. As a result, the clubhead de-lofts and strikes the ball with little or no effective launch angle. The club actually shoots the ball into the ground, sending it "crawling."

Please feel free to correct this statement so that it is crystal clear for everyone to understand. Thanks.

You may be absolutely right about this, Maveric, but Lowrider basically wants nothing to do with you at this point and tells you to go play somewhere else if you are going to continue making fun of him. It's like your trying to catch him in some kind of lie in order to expose a level of golf genious to the grateful internet forum. It's obviously not to help Lowrider out at this point. If you are truly upset and frustrated with his replies and postings, you can stop at any time. No one is paid for their GR forum advice. What exactly was your point here if I'm wrong?

How was my question making fun of the OP? The OP is from Portugal and obviously does not have a full command of the English language. I was trying to state his case in clear English so that I and everyone else did not misunderstand. I was not trying to make fun of the OP and I don't understand how my question could have been misconstrued.

As a student of the game, I wanted to fully understand the OP's position. I only wanted to engage in a healthy debate for the benefit of the forum. Unfortunately, when asked to support his argument, the OP resorted to personal attacks and the discussion degenerated.

When it became obvious that the OP was incapable of accepting sound advice, my intention was only to explain the conventional understanding of golf shaft dynamics to the forum as a whole.

[maveric]

If anyone still cares, here's a brief explanation of the effects of shaft flex.

Beware the dangers of making assumptions like Lowrider!

As Butch Harmon frequently says, "what you feel is not always what is real."

[dorkman53]

If anyone still cares, here's a brief explanation of the effects of shaft flex.

Beware the dangers of making assumptions like Lowrider!

As Butch Harmon frequently says, "what you feel is not always what is real."

Agree. Too stiff; short, low and miss right. Too flexible; high hooks. Believe it or not, I've had people jump on me and even call me a "tool" for stating that changing shafts will make a difference!

[ironman]

Agree. Too stiff; short, low and miss right. Too flexible; high hooks. Believe it or not, I've had people jump on me and even call me a "tool" for stating that changing shafts will make a difference!

when I had Titleist 670 DGS300 (126grams) and had slower swing speeds I had shots that tended to go short (witht the long irons), low and miss right. Back then my 5-iron carried about 155~160

now that I've MacGregor 1025C Lite Regulars (95grams) and have faster speed (or better swing) my shot tendancy are high draws or high hooks. Now my 5-iron carries about 175~180 .

My driver is 75 gram Stiff graphite, but here's where that tendancy ends. Some days I'll hit it high draws and other days the dreaded high slice comes back when forgetting to swing to the rght tempo

[Lemonhead]

Well, the clubs my wife bought me came with a mid flex shaft on the driver. As I started playing better and swinging faster I noticed that I started slicing again. I went back and made sure I was doing my Lemonhead 6 correctly. Then I borrowed a driver with a stiff shaft from a friend at the range and was hitting it straight.

I went back to my club and tried a few things. What I learned was that if I really wailed at the ball I would slice it even if I did everything right. When I eased up, the ball went straight. I thought that perhaps the softer shaft was torquing the face open when I swung hard. I closed the face a hair and swung hard and everything lined up and it went straight. With that setup and a soft swing and it hooked (face closed).

My conclusion: that a soft shaft with a fast swing will cause the face to torque to an open position and cause a slice (for me). I'm going to be picking up a stiff shaft driver soon, but I'm good for now. Given that the shaft is attached to the leading edge corner of the driver head, when then shaft flexes it will not make the face point downward, rather it will torque the head around the shaft while the shaft flexes (driver head tries to rotate behind the shaft during the downswing).

Lowrider, I'm betting that you probably drop your leading shoulder when you swing hard and are really hitting down on the ball without realizing it.

Lemonhead

[ironman]

. What I learned was that if I really wailed at the ball I would slice it even if I did everything right. When I eased up, the ball went straight. I thought that perhaps the softer shaft was torquing the face open when I swung hard. I closed the face a hair and swung hard and everything lined up and it went straight. With that setup and a soft swing and it hooked (face closed).

My conclusion: that a soft shaft with a fast swing will cause the face to torque to an open position and cause a slice (for me). ...
Lemonhead

M2! When I eased up, the ball went straight.
My club pro sggests that I use X flex for some graphite wood shafts (or, better, buy a shaft from him that he'd test and fit for me. I trust his knowledge)

UST Proforce 75 Stiff...are these stiffer, with lower torque #s, than Adilla NV 75 stiff?

[dorkman53]

Well, the clubs my wife bought me came with a mid flex shaft on the driver. As I started playing better and swinging faster I noticed that I started slicing again. I went back and made sure I was doing my Lemonhead 6 correctly. Then I borrowed a driver with a stiff shaft from a friend at the range and was hitting it straight.

I went back to my club and tried a few things. What I learned was that if I really wailed at the ball I would slice it even if I did everything right. When I eased up, the ball went straight. I thought that perhaps the softer shaft was torquing the face open when I swung hard. I closed the face a hair and swung hard and everything lined up and it went straight. With that setup and a soft swing and it hooked (face closed).

My conclusion: that a soft shaft with a fast swing will cause the face to torque to an open position and cause a slice (for me). I'm going to be picking up a stiff shaft driver soon, but I'm good for now. Given that the shaft is attached to the leading edge corner of the driver head, when then shaft flexes it will not make the face point downward, rather it will torque the head around the shaft while the shaft flexes (driver head tries to rotate behind the shaft during the downswing).

Lowrider, I'm betting that you probably drop your leading shoulder when you swing hard and are really hitting down on the ball without realizing it.

Lemonhead

Too soft a shaft will often cause a hook because the clubhead is closing ahead of you. This is the more common scenario. However, it is also possible to cause a slice if your swing is faster than the clubhead closing. I'm not sure I understand the physics of this, but I've also seen that with shafts that are too flexible. The results are simply erratic; usually hooks, but sometimes slices, too. Too flexible can also lead to some monumentally long shots, too, which can give false encouragement to the naive. Too stiff is much more predictable in my hands; the low, short fade.

[Lemonhead]

I think about the driver head like a flag on a stick (albeit a very stiff flag). When you wave a flag, the material drags behind the flagstick and lines up along the path of the flagstick movement. The driver head attempts to do the same thing since the shaft is flexible both laterally and rotationally. Therefore, during the downswing, the head will attempt to rotate behind the shaft which will automatically be in the open position. If the shaft were stiff like a hockey stick, then there would be no displacement due to torque because the shaft would not allow for torque. Golf shafts are not that stiff.

Lemonhead

[Lemonhead]

Too soft a shaft will often cause a hook because the clubhead is closing ahead of you. This is the more common scenario. However, it is also possible to cause a slice if your swing is faster than the clubhead closing. I'm not sure I understand the physics of this, but I've also seen that with shafts that are too flexible. The results are simply erratic; usually hooks, but sometimes slices, too. Too flexible can also lead to some monumentally long shots, too, which can give false encouragement to the naive. Too stiff is much more predictable in my hands; the low, short fade.

I do suffer from the occasional hook. Typically, this happens when I ease up on my swing. I think I might end up releasing too soon in this situation.

I find that I do better when I learn the cause and effects and then adjust. Like I said, I know what is happening with the current club and how to use it to my advantage. To me, it's similar to learning how to adjust to hit a fade or a draw. I simply had to learn how to adjust to hit this particular club harder while keeping it straight.

One downside to having to make this adjustment at the tee is that I haven't been able to hit a consistent draw while hitting hard. I can when I ease up and align the club normally. I really would like to be able to hit the draw while still hitting it hard, but I'll wait until I pick up a stiff shaft driver and no longer have to make the adjustments on the tee. Until then, I'll just have to back off my swing when I want to draw it.

Lemonhead

[dorkman53]

I think I have the correct flex on my shafts now.

Currently, when I hook, it is almost always because I do a pull-hook due to rushing my swing. This most frequently happens when I try to hit the ball too hard, such as letting my subconscious try to overcome a significant headwind. Sometimes I do this shot on the first hole, out of a bit of anxiety.

Now, when I fade, it is usually a blocked shot, caused by trying to "aim" the ball instead of just doing a free, relaxed swing. This usually happens when I am trying to avoid a fairway bunker or some other obstacle. I rarely do this on a wide open driving hole.

So my mistakes right and left now are more the result of bad swings, rather than incorrect shaft flex issues. Therefore, they are much easier to diagnose and remedy.

[poe4soul]

I agree with dorkman. Usually a stiff shaft will be open at impact and a weak shaft will be closed. This is because the shaft is loaded at the beginnig of the swing. When the shaft is weak it will unload early giving you a closed face. If it is too strong it will never fully load and will be open at impact.

I had a defective TM driver and TM replaced it. The first driver I was hitting well. The replacement driver I was hitting mostly fades and push fades. I got fustrated and went shopping at a local club fitter. He tested the shaft on the replaced TM and it was almost an x-stiff. I replaced the shaft and I am hitting straight or high draws.

I would suggest you take your club to a local club fitter and have your swing and club checked. It is better than trial and error and it might save you some money in the long run.

Curious, the driver you tried is it the same brand of driver?

[Horseballs]

Ahhh... A trip down memory lane with this dusty thread. I believe this was my first semi-flame war.
Memories of a simpler time.

[dorkman53]

Ahhh... A trip down memory lane with this dusty thread. I believe this was my first semi-flame war.
Memories of a simpler time.

Yes......the corpse has been exhumed, and we've hooked up the electrodes on his neck to the lightning rod.......

[Lemonhead]

Curious, the driver you tried is it the same brand of driver?

No, it wasn't. I understand what you are saying about unloading. Perhaps what is happening is that when I swing harder, I'm releasing late so the face is still open. Now that I play shots back in my head, before I figured out what worked with this club, I would hit a slice and then on my next swing I would hit a hook or a pull. When I hit the slice, I had been figuring that I wasn't releasing the club, so I would make a concious effort to release the club and then hook it - sometimes really bad.

If I slowed down my swing, I'm sure I was releasing correctly.

Hmmmm.......

Lemonhead.

[andrew7]

I draw with the new stiffer shaft, not with the original lagging one, the problem is my follow-up, usually forget to do it straight, I pull the club to the left, the ball follows...

LR the ball only reacts to what you do just before and as you hit it....it doesn't follow your follow through..
If you are following through too much to the left, and the ball is STARTING off to the left then you are swinging out-to-in BEFORE you hit the ball.

On the follow through your club has to travel back inside the target line, with the butt pointing back to the target line.... it (the shaft) cannot stay on your target line...think of a bycicle tyre leaning at an angle against the wall. That is the path of your clubhead during the swing..