Male (4cap) vs. LPGA on 7,000+ track

[The Purist]

In the latest golf digest. Some guy asks Stina Sternberg if its possible for his 4 handicap friend who drives over 300 to beat most LPGA players from the tips of a 7,000+ yard course. She replies that there is no way, but then takes it a step further and says he wouldn't beat any of the ladies on the LPGA. Im sure the longer LPGA hitters and better players would beat a 4 handicapper pretty easily, but the shorter players would struggle.

I think a 4 handicap guy who drives 300 could definitely beat some of the LPGA field on 7300 track like Royal New Kent. The LPGA players had a ton of trouble with the 6700 layout at their open. I think distance would be a major factor. I think they would struggle to hit the green in regulation on 7 or 8 holes with perfectly straight shots, and would really struggle to make birdies, because even the shorter holes would be mid irons for them. I bet at least 20% of the LPGA would struggle to break 80 from the tips of a 7300 course, and the 4 capper with distance would always be a threat to break 80.

[connecticutter]

I think the top teir players will beat most male 4 handicappers on most days, unless the 4 handicapper plays the round of his life or that LPGA golfer just do not have their game. I have seen 18 handicappers beat 1 handicappers because of that. Some LPGA players are very accurate iron and short game players, so that might offset some of the advantage a long 4 handicapper might have. That 4 handi should give the LPGA players ranked in the 100s a good run for the money though. especially if he can get the putter and driver going in the same round.

[jamesll9]

I'm not sure how courses are set up for the women during LPGA events. If the rough was not too penal and the green speeds were reasonable, a true 4 (4 hdcp based on course rating from the tips) might make the cut on a 7300 yard track.

[collegegolfer]

I don't think a 4 would win. Yeah, he might beat a couple if he has the round of his life, but that's not saying much. He could probably beat a couple of PGA players every once in a while too. You see scores in the 80's from the men on occasion and if a 4 played REALLY well he'd probably beat about as many PGA players. You've obviously never watched an LPGA event in person or you wouldn't even be asking this question.

[The Purist]

I don't think a 4 would win. Yeah, he might beat a couple if he has the round of his life, but that's not saying much. He could probably beat a couple of PGA players every once in a while too. You see scores in the 80's from the men on occasion and if a 4 played REALLY well he'd probably beat about as many PGA players. You've obviously never watched an LPGA event in person or you wouldn't even be asking this question.

In my experience a guy who can carry 300 yards doesn't usually lose many strokes to holes that are guarded by length and is more likely to make most of his mistakes on and around the green. Do you think most LPGA players can carry the ball 230 yards? How are they going to do playing par 3's that are 191, 197, 221, and 245 and playing par 4s that are 452, 427, 476, 418, 418, and 417. Short hitting LPGA players may be great at putting, chipping, and accuracy, but they are susceptible to holes guarded with distance.

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

I read that article too. The lady sounded downright offended by the question. I think it's possible. In 2002 I had the pleasure of playing a round with the defending Women's Florida State Amateur Champ. She was the mother of a friend I worked with and we all went out and played. She played from the white tees (about 6100 yards) and I played the blue tees (about 6600 yards). I shot 76 and she shot 80. Whooped her. Women just don't play the same game.

[gepetohong]

I read that article as well, and while I don't share her disdain for the question I think she's probably right. Granted that any scratch golfer can beat some PGA players on a given day if he played a game of his life and the PGA player had an awful day, I think the stats would bear some of this out pretty well.

A 4-handicap would mean he averages 76 on a 72 rating, 100 slope course. LPGA.com stats indicate that the worst average on tour is currently 78.3, and best is 70.1. Moreover, only 3 players average worse than 76.0. These averages are based on tournaments, which probably average in the 73-74 ratings and 130-150 slopes. So that 78.3 average is probably like a 73-74 on the 72/100 scale, or 1-2 handicap. And all but 3 are at worst scratch golfers. So based on that, I would think on a typical day the 4-handicap dude would come out on the short end against any LPGA player.

[lorenzoinoc]

TP, I can't think of anyone I'd consider to have less credibility than Stina Sternber. So I can't opine on something like this.

I will say that the average LPGA player eats more than a male that drives the ball 300 yards.

[oldplayer]

A male 4 cap may not beat the better lpga players but could certainly take on the average ones.

[Not a hacker]

I have my doubts that the average 4 cap would beat the average LPGA player as 4 is not a really low cap. It's a good standard for sure, but it's really only the entry point for true players. I've played with alot of 4 cappers over the years and I couldn't see them shooting the under par scores needed to beat a front bum. Having said that, there is a huge difference when you get players off 3 or less, and I would put it all on a genuine 2 marker to whoop an average LPGA player any day of the week. And a male scratch marker on a long course would whoop the best of the LPGA by 2 a side, and be superior in every aspect of the game. 5 a side if the course was tricked up.

[The Purist]

I have my doubts that the average 4 cap would beat the average LPGA player as 4 is not a really low cap. It's a good standard for sure, but it's really only the entry point for true players. I've played with alot of 4 cappers over the years and I couldn't see them shooting the under par scores needed to beat a front bum. Having said that, there is a huge difference when you get players off 3 or less, and I would put it all on a genuine 2 marker to whoop an average LPGA player any day of the week. And a male scratch marker on a long course would whoop the best of the LPGA by 2 a side, and be superior in every aspect of the game. 5 a side if the course was tricked up.

we aren't talking about a 4 handicap who hits it 260...we are talking about one that hits it 300+

and on a 7000+ track...big diference

even if two male 4 handicaps played a 6700 course and one hit 280 the other 300+ there would probably be little difference in scores.....but put the same guys on a 7200 course and the longer hitter will have a much easier time.

[Not a hacker]

we aren't talking about a 4 handicap who hits it 260...we are talking about one that hits it 300+

and on a 7000+ track...big diference

even if two male 4 handicaps played a 6700 course and one hit 280 the other 300+ there would probably be little difference in scores.....but put the same guys on a 7200 course and the longer hitter will have a much easier time.

I get your point, LPGA torunaments are played from forward tees so you may be right that an average LPGA player would indeed have difficulty shooting anywhere near par from the tips on a long course. I would still think that the LPGA player would have it all over a 4 marker short game wise, but I suppose it's just a matter of whether she could get close enough to the greens to take advantage of that. It would be an interesting match up either way.

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

I met a 4 handicapper that shot 60 one time. I kid you not. He was playing Hunt Valley Golf Club in Phoenix, MD. The guy played the blue and white 9's. He shot 27 on the blue (including a double eagle and two eagles) and then shot 33 on the white nine. The funny thing is he 3-putted the last hole for a 60. Could have been a 59. Ripley's Believe it or Not did a piece on it. Should be able to find it somewhere online. In think the guy's name was Joe Record.

[Horseballs]

I think it would be a good match. 7200 yards would be way too much for the ladies, so they would effectively have a realistic par of something like 77-78 if there are 5 or 6 par 3's and 4's that are unreachable. I still think the LPGA player would win, because 7200 yards is still a long course for a guy who crushes the ball and a 4 cap would also struggle to break 80.

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

I think it would be a good match. 7200 yards would be way too much for the ladies, so they would effectively have a realistic par of something like 77-78 if there are 5 or 6 par 3's and 4's that are unreachable. I still think the LPGA player would win, because 7200 yards is still a long course for a guy who crushes the ball and a 4 cap would also struggle to break 80.

Anyone remember what Annika did in the PGA tournament she played in? She missed the cut by a mile. They even gave her one of the shorter courses on tour that rolled like crazy when the ball hit the ground.

[Horseballs]

Anyone remember what Annika did in the PGA tournament she played in? She missed the cut by a mile. They even gave her one of the shorter courses on tour that rolled like crazy when the ball hit the ground.

I don't think she missed by a mile did she? Plus that's really a different argument. Of course an LPGA player can't compete with the best players in the world, regardless of the venue.

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

I don't think she missed by a mile did she? Plus that's really a different argument. Of course an LPGA player can't compete with the best players in the world, regardless of the venue.

Annika shot 71-74 to finish at 5 over. Not sure where the cut line was but considering Kenny Perry won with a score of 19 under...I'm guessing the line was below par. So she missed the cut by about 7 or so shots. That's a mile in my book.

A better comparison might be...Bethpage Black. Take your average LPGA Player and put her out on the US Open course right before the pros play it. Just like they did with Ben Roethlisberger, Michael Jordan, and Justin Timberlake. Do you see any that woman beating Ben Roethlisberger's score of 81?

[Horseballs]

Annika shot 71-74 to finish at 5 over. Not sure where the cut line was but considering Kenny Perry won with a score of 19 under...I'm guessing the line was below par. So she missed the cut by about 7 or so shots. That's a mile in my book.

A better comparison might be...Bethpage Black. Take your average LPGA Player and put her out on the US Open course right before the pros play it. Just like they did with Ben Roethlisberger, Michael Jordan, and Justin Timberlake. Do you see any that woman beating Ben Roethlisberger's score of 81?

I also don't see a 4 cap coming within 10 - 15 shots of that cut either at Colonial.
No chance of any woman coming close to Ben's 81. I also don't think Ben would shoot 81 everytime he teed it up under those conditions either.

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

I also don't see a 4 cap coming within 10 - 15 shots of that cut either at Colonial.
No chance of any woman coming close to Ben's 81. I also don't think Ben would shoot 81 everytime he teed it up under those conditions either.

I'm not really arguing that a 4 handicapper would beat a woman regularly...I'm saying they have a decent shot at beating her. In regards to the Annika comparison, I was using the the best female golfer of all-time playing at the peak of her career as a comparison to show that even the greatest woman of all-time at the height of her talent could not come close to competing with also rans on the PGA Tour. Therefore a lesser player on that tour, say someone who misses a lot of cuts on the LPGA Tour but keeps a card...they could definitely lose to a 4 handicapper if the conditions were right.

[Horseballs]

I'm not really arguing that a 4 handicapper would beat a woman regularly...I'm saying they have a decent shot at beating her. In regards to the Annika comparison, I was using the the best female golfer of all-time playing at the peak of her career as a comparison to show that even the greatest woman of all-time at the height of her talent could not come close to competing with also rans on the PGA Tour. Therefore a lesser player on that tour, say someone who misses a lot of cuts on the LPGA Tour but keeps a card...they could definitely lose to a 4 handicapper if the conditions were right.

I agree. I do think that most times the 4 cap would be losing. I was at 4 for most of last year and my scoring average for all my rounds was just over a 79, probably around 78 if you throw out March and April. The chick I played with in the Duramed pro am would have owned me pretty good last year, regardless of the yardage. I think I could have given her a run on a few of my rounds, maybe 3 out of 20.

[poe4soul]

When I was growing up my old man used to play rounds in the off and shoulder season with a LPGA touring pro. I would guess he was about a 2 at the time. The both played from the blue tees. My dad could drive his old wood driver about 260-280 and was quite long for the time. As I recall he could beat her 1 out of 3 times. Like any good player she would be down a stroke with both on or near the green and she would make longer putts and chip in more often. They played match play but I would bet she beat him on strokes every round. She would be on or near the fairway and had a great short game. I'm not sure wear she was ranked but she wasn't on the leader board.

[dorkman53]

When I was growing up my old man used to play rounds in the off and shoulder season with a LPGA touring pro. I would guess he was about a 2 at the time. The both played from the blue tees. My dad could drive his old wood driver about 260-280 and was quite long for the time. As I recall he could beat her 1 out of 3 times. Like any good player she would be down a stroke with both on or near the green and she would make longer putts and chip in more often. They played match play but I would bet she beat him on strokes every round. She would be on or near the fairway and had a great short game. I'm not sure wear she was ranked but she wasn't on the leader board.

What you are doing with this post is totally antithetical to the very fabric of GR. You are introducing fact and real world experience instead of speculation and fantasy.

Moderators, can we please ban this guy?!

[Pky6471]

I follow McDonald LPGA tourney at Bulle Rock MD in the past 4 years, there is NO way a 4 handicap man can beat them in 3 rounds, NO WAY... their accuracy is incredible, distance won't make great players, accuracy is... Lơok at Tom Watson, he was in the playoff because of his accuracy, not his distance (not to take credit from Steward Cink who played very well in playoff against Tom) hats off to both of them

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

I follow McDonald LPGA tourney at Bulle Rock MD in the past 4 years, there is NO way a 4 handicap man can beat them in 3 rounds, NO WAY... their accuracy is incredible, distance won't make great players, accuracy is... Lơok at Tom Watson, he was in the playoff because of his accuracy, not his distance (not to take credit from Steward Cink who played very well in playoff against Tom) hats off to both of them

What yardage did those ladies play Bulle Rock from?

[Kiwi Player]

A better comparison might be...Bethpage Black. Take your average LPGA Player and put her out on the US Open course right before the pros play it.

Are you kidding??? You can't let a women on that bada$$ course!!! Don't they have a sign warning against this?

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

Are you kidding??? You can't let a women on that bada$$ course!!! Don't they have a sign warning against this?

You're right. I wasn't thinking. A course with a warning sign should be taken very seriously.

[Pky6471]

What yardage did those ladies play Bulle Rock from?

I believe around 6500... Bulle Rock is a 5-star public golf course in Maryland

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

I believe around 6500... Bulle Rock is a 5-star public golf course in Maryland

I've played that place from different tees on numerous occasions...including the tips. That course is a completely different animal from nearly 7400 yards. The teaching pros that work there think the tips are crazy too. It's also one of the few courses where they ask you to drive your cart in the fairway so you don't tear up the rough. Miss the fairway and you're not advancing it too far. I'd like to see those chicks playing #5 the 480 yard (sharply uphill) par 4. #18 the 485 yard par 4 which usually plays into the wind and has water all down the left would be fun to watch too.

[Pky6471]

Yes... # 18 is the great finishing hole... most >95% LPGA can get on this green , putting for a birdie is almost impossible unless you are within 6 ft

[Not a hacker]

Yes... # 18 is the great finishing hole... most >95% LPGA can get on this green , putting for a birdie is almost impossible unless you are within 6 ft

You're not paying attention. Wiggle is trying to say how much the women would struggle from 485yards and you give a meaningless stat of how many hit the green from their sissy forward tees. There is absolutely no way in the world even 5% of front bums could hit a green on an into the wind 485 yard hole in two. Please try to keep up with the flow of the thread.

[dorkman53]

You're not paying attention. Wiggle is trying to say how much the women would struggle from 485yards and you give a meaningless stat of how many hit the green from their sissy forward tees. There is absolutely no way in the world even 5% of front bums could hit a green on an into the wind 485 yard hole in two. Please try to keep up with the flow of the thread.

No, but an LPGA pro would likely have enough savvy to make par with an up and down. And how many on this board would likely make par on a 485 yard uphill par 4 with wind in the face by going for the green in 2? Silly question......we're asking anonymous internet flamer/troller/liars.......

[Not a hacker]

No, but an LPGA pro would likely have enough savvy to make par with an up and down. And how many on this board would likely make par on a 485 yard uphill par 4 with wind in the face by going for the green in 2? Silly question......we're asking anonymous internet flamer/troller/liars.......

I will conceed that the average LPGA player should be in a position to have a par putt most of the time on a hole like that, but I think if you look at their 'up and down' stats they would make more bogeys than pars. 485 yards would be an average length par 5 in an LPGA event.

P.S. I would probably smooth a 3 iron for safety off the tee to take the greenside bunkers out of play, then chip on and leave a tap in birdie if I miss the chip.

[Pky6471]

No, but an LPGA pro would likely have enough savvy to make par with an up and down. And how many on this board would likely make par on a 485 yard uphill par 4 with wind in the face by going for the green in 2? Silly question......we're asking anonymous internet flamer/troller/liars.......

Opinion from Aussie won't count... *_*

[edgey]

No, but an LPGA pro would likely have enough savvy to make par with an up and down. And how many on this board would likely make par on a 485 yard uphill par 4 with wind in the face by going for the green in 2? Silly question......we're asking anonymous internet flamer/troller/liars.......

I couldnt make the green in 2!

I would hit a hybrid off the tee about 200, another hybrid about 200 and hit a wedge in. If i made 4 great, if not 5 is a good score.

Most LPGA pros would muller any male 4 handicap golfer on almost any course.

EDGEY

[Mr 3 Wiggle]

I couldnt make the green in 2!

I would hit a hybrid off the tee about 200, another hybrid about 200 and hit a wedge in. If i made 4 great, if not 5 is a good score.

Most LPGA pros would muller any male 4 handicap golfer on almost any course.

EDGEY

The hole actually sets up nicely for me since I play a hard draw a lot of times. I aim out over the right side and wail on hard low hook. Then I usually have a 7 wood into the green. One time I dropped it on the other time I missed right. I play the same hard hook with the 7 wood. Still have never made a par on it.

[edgey]

The hole actually sets up nicely for me since I play a hard draw a lot of times. I aim out over the right side and wail on hard low hook. Then I usually have a 7 wood into the green. One time I dropped it on the other time I missed right. I play the same hard hook with the 7 wood. Still have never made a par on it.

Any 485yd uphill par 4 is a par 5 to me.

I therefore play it as a 5 and if i make 4 i view it as a birdie (and i will only ever make a 4 via a chip and a putt)

Rarely make 6 or 7 though

Edgey