you cant hit it high or accurate with S&T take a look at these...
NAH asked to see videos of driver, and others said they would believe it if they saw straight shots... so i had been thinking of how to show the trajectory i have with stack and tilt... i was hitting the other night and i saw how much better you could see my traj at night due to the lights...
so here is the driver taken at at the same time (same swing) from 2 different angles... and the other is an iron...
i think it looks better now... but again just my opinion, what do i know... also i think it looks punchier cause of the speed breaking, as far as my tempo goes its always been on the quicker side in terms of my transition.... but this isnt really about my swing... more or less NAH said it didnt work with the driver, and i just thought this was a good way to show that if done properly you will hit the ball high and accurate.... same with the irons....
i think it looks better now... but again just my opinion, what do i know... also i think it looks punchier cause of the speed breaking, as far as my tempo goes its always been on the quicker side in terms of my transition.... but this isnt really about my swing... more or less NAH said it didnt work with the driver, and i just thought this was a good way to show that if done properly you will hit the ball high and accurate.... same with the irons....
When you say speed breaking, what is breaking? The shoulders, the arms, or both?
The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.
Pingman isn't going to be happy until everyone on this forum tells him he's got an awesome swing and that S&T is the best method.
I'll get the ball rolling...
Pingman, your swing is a thing of beauty. Stack and Tilt is the best. I've wasted years of my life trying to swing normally. Forgive me.
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I just went back and looked at all your old videos, and I think your lack of flex in the right knee is holding you back a little bit. The amount of rear knee flex effects hip rotation, balance, spine angle, and how smooth you can transition from back swing to downswing.
The reason you have always had to have such a short backswing is the lack of flex in the right knee throughout the swing. If you tried to take the club back any further, you would lose you spine angle due to lack of hip motion and a straight knee...you would basically have to "stand up" and then try to get back down before impact. Plus, a straight back leg, makes it very difficult to start unwinding from the top smoothly.
I can see why you would like the S&T method, because the pivot seems to revolve around the left hip. I think that works fine for shorter clubs, but longer clubs require more width for balance...by that I mean wider stance (probably hard to make a S&T pivot from a wide stance). Plus a longer backswing allows you to achieve more width in the swing arc...it gives you time to let gravity start the club back down (FON) and find a more natural tempo. You can still apply a lot of power at the end of the downswing, but it will be more effortless. Its a lot easier to accelerate a car from 40mph to 80mph than it is to go from 0 to 60mph.
Maintaining flex in the rear knee will probably make you feel like you are squatting down through the backswing. To a certain extent you are, and you will feel a lot more friction between both your feet and the ground. I guarantee you will see a big difference in power, tempo, and smoothness if you keep that knee flexed.
Last edited by The Purist; 10-07-2009 at 08:28 AM.
The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.
Pingman isn't going to be happy until everyone on this forum tells him he's got an awesome swing and that S&T is the best method.
I'll get the ball rolling...
Pingman, your swing is a thing of beauty. Stack and Tilt is the best. I've wasted years of my life trying to swing normally. Forgive me.
Whatever works for the Pingman... If I have to guess, that king of swing would only take us so far, ie. in the mid 70s, but IMO it would require a smơoth swing to take someone into the 60s... but again, what the hell do I know
I just went back and looked at all your old videos, and I think your lack of flex in the right knee is holding you back a little bit. The amount of rear knee flex effects hip rotation, balance, spine angle, and how smooth you can transition from back swing to downswing.
The reason you have always had to have such a short backswing is the lack of flex in the right knee throughout the swing. If you tried to take the club back any further, you would lose you spine angle due to lack of hip motion and a straight knee...you would basically have to "stand up" and then try to get back down before impact. Plus, a straight back leg, makes it very difficult to start unwinding from the top smoothly.
I can see why you would like the S&T method, because the pivot seems to revolve around the left hip. I think that works fine for shorter clubs, but longer clubs require more width for balance...by that I mean wider stance (probably hard to make a S&T pivot from a wide stance). Plus a longer backswing allows you to achieve more width in the swing arc...it gives you time to let gravity start the club back down (FON) and find a more natural tempo. You can still apply a lot of power at the end of the downswing, but it will be more effortless. Its a lot easier to accelerate a car from 40mph to 80mph than it is to go from 0 to 60mph.
Maintaining flex in the rear knee will probably make you feel like you are squatting down through the backswing. To a certain extent you are, and you will feel a lot more friction between both your feet and the ground. I guarantee you will see a big difference in power, tempo, and smoothness if you keep that knee flexed.
in Stack and Tilt the left knee bends toward the toes, and the right knee straightens... so hip turn isnt the problem... 45* is what is prescribed and i have that... shoulder turn is supposed to be 90* at min... and mine according to TaylormadePreformanceLabs is over that... look at the top of the swing for charlie wi compared to mine... (we both use S&T) hands go to shoulder height... thats all...
i'm not trying to hit the ball farther 315yds is tot distance for me now... plus making my arms swing farther doesnt create more power...
btw keeping the right knee flexed is the biggest BS thing any teacher will ever say that LIMITS the amount of hip turn and creates balance issues...
in Stack and Tilt the left knee bends toward the toes, and the right knee straightens... so hip turn isnt the problem... 45* is what is prescribed and i have that... shoulder turn is supposed to be 90* at min... and mine according to TaylormadePreformanceLabs is over that... look at the top of the swing for charlie wi compared to mine... (we both use S&T) hands go to shoulder height... thats all...
i'm not trying to hit the ball farther 315yds is tot distance for me now... plus making my arms swing farther doesnt create more power...
btw keeping the right knee flexed is the biggest BS thing any teacher will ever say that LIMITS the amount of hip turn and creates balance issues...
You have the blinders on again. I get that the S&T allows for a straight right leg. My point was that even during your "normal" swing videos, you had a straight right leg.
btw keeping the right knee flexed is the biggest BS thing any teacher will ever say that LIMITS the amount of hip turn and creates balance issues
What are you trying to say here...Its confusing. You realize when I say flexed knee, I mean a bent knee. You are badly mistaken if you think keeping a bend in your rear knee during the backswing limits hip turn and causes balance issues. Why don't you look at Mac O'Grady's swing and then tell me what he does with his back knee.
[IMG][/IMG]
P.S.>ROFL at 315 yards. That ball didn't look like it would carry 250, but more power to you if you can get 65 yards of roll...
The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.
You have the blinders on again. I get that the S&T allows for a straight right leg. My point was that even during your "normal" swing videos, you had a straight right leg.
What are you trying to say here...Its confusing. You realize when I say flexed knee, I mean a bent knee. You are badly mistaken if you think keeping a bend in your rear knee during the backswing limits hip turn and causes balance issues. Why don't you look at Mac O'Grady's swing and then tell me what he does with his back knee.
[IMG][/IMG]
P.S.>ROFL at 315 yards. That ball didn't look like it would carry 250, but more power to you if you can get 65 yards of roll...
i can get on a LM and show you if you like once again i was fit at the same location sergio, kenny perry, sean o'hair, and most TM staffers go to... the fitter is the same guy for all the TM staffers, he showed me data that said my averages were better than sergio's and kenny perry's... honestly i dont care what people think of my swing or how far i hit it... feel free to stop by anytime and see for yourself i mean that in all seriousness...
also the video is from his '08 swing... S&T is based off his like 70's, and 80's swing...
i'm not putting this stuff up here to brag about myself... i am simply a PGA professional who teaches this material and thought that some of the people on this board may want to hear a bit about stack and tilt...
but here's what i'll do, i'll try to set up our LM in the next week (tourney in NY till sunday so it'll have to be next week sometime) and take some screenshots/pictures of my numbers... also if that is not sufficient i can take a video of me hitting a golf ball and driving out to it with GPS and measuring how far it went... i mean for real why the crap would i make up any of this?? what would it benefit me?? i mean c'mon...
Give it up Purist.
This guy only wants us to validate what he is doing. If S&T is his "thing", leave him to it and don't waste your considerable knowledge of the golf swing on him.
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i can get on a LM and show you if you like once again i was fit at the same location sergio, kenny perry, sean o'hair, and most TM staffers go to... the fitter is the same guy for all the TM staffers, he showed me data that said my averages were better than sergio's and kenny perry's... honestly i dont care what people think of my swing or how far i hit it... feel free to stop by anytime and see for yourself i mean that in all seriousness...
also the video is from his '08 swing... S&T is based off his like 70's, and 80's swing...
i'm not putting this stuff up here to brag about myself... i am simply a PGA professional who teaches this material and thought that some of the people on this board may want to hear a bit about stack and tilt...
but here's what i'll do, i'll try to set up our LM in the next week (tourney in NY till sunday so it'll have to be next week sometime) and take some screenshots/pictures of my numbers... also if that is not sufficient i can take a video of me hitting a golf ball and driving out to it with GPS and measuring how far it went... i mean for real why the crap would i make up any of this?? what would it benefit me?? i mean c'mon...
All Im trying to say is that you probably could have made your conventional swing work with a few minor tweaks. Getting into S&T teaching right now is like being the last guy to get in on pyramid scheme. Every big name player on tour has dropped this approach, and you will too sooner or later. You aren't getting any younger...its time to wake up and get with the program...You don't have time to jump from system to system.
The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.
Pardon the ignorant question, but what is "TFTO.NIUC!!?"
It stands for, "Thanks For The Information. Now I Understand Clearly"
Why the "O" instead of an "I"?? If I had made it make sense, it would have been too easy........
I think PM is referring to a Kinesiology theory that max speed is reach when you try to stop an object. You are basically transmitting/focusing all the power at a specific point and not through the entire swing. Done properly it feels like you are trying to stop or break the swing of the object. Pretty hard concept and it seems counter intuitive. Many martial arts us this theory when swinging swords, staffs, etc.
It stands for, "Thanks For The Information. Now I Understand Clearly"
Why the "O" instead of an "I"?? If I had made it make sense, it would have been too easy........
I knew what you meant . . . . . I guess you have to be American . . . .
Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.
Whatever works for the Pingman... If I have to guess, that king of swing would only take us so far, ie. in the mid 70s, but IMO it would require a smơoth swing to take someone into the 60s... but again, what the hell do I know
Perhaps so. My mates and I all have relatively long swings (in comparison to Mr.SnT).
look i'm not saying that everyone has to switch... i'm just saying in my short time of teaching it my students have done very well and i have picked up some pretty good minitour players... (one of which qualifier for 3 nationwide tour events and 1 PGA tour event this year)... as for not getting any younger im freakin 19... lol... also yes that is the concept poe...
as for validation i dont really need any validation... i mean im the youngest instructor in my section and have some big name players... so i think that my students, and their results are enough validation for me....
Were you sponsored by PING originally or something?
well when i first started this account i played everything PING... now i play nothing PING.... lol...
actually its gonna be kinda odd im in the process of switching everything to TM cause i got a sponsorship with them... (get to keep my irons, and putter but the rest has to be TM... lol) so i dont really like the r9 FW's so thats no good looking into an older model like the r7 tp 3 wood... and when it comes out i'll also be playing the new raylor... wedges will switch too come Jan 1 2010... and i'll be playing the new TM Penta golf ball...
I don't think think Pingman is trying to validate anything or fish for Kudos, I think he is just sharing information. Having said that, I think if I had Pinger's talent/hand-eye coordination/clubhead speed, I would be trying to groove a more conventional swing with the ability to work the ball more. I think the S&T is a legit method for hackers, it can provide consistency and repeatability. At Pingman's level, however, the ability to move the ball becomes more important. Being one dimensional hurts pros (Rocco/Kenny Perry) whereas hitting everything straight would be a God-send for a hacker like myself. Pinger, what do you do when you have to fade the ball to the green from and uphill lie? Can you pull that off with that swing?
I just went back and looked at all your old videos, and I think your lack of flex in the right knee is holding you back a little bit. The amount of rear knee flex effects hip rotation, balance, spine angle, and how smooth you can transition from back swing to downswing.
The reason you have always had to have such a short backswing is the lack of flex in the right knee throughout the swing. If you tried to take the club back any further, you would lose you spine angle due to lack of hip motion and a straight knee...you would basically have to "stand up" and then try to get back down before impact. Plus, a straight back leg, makes it very difficult to start unwinding from the top smoothly.
I can see why you would like the S&T method, because the pivot seems to revolve around the left hip. I think that works fine for shorter clubs, but longer clubs require more width for balance...by that I mean wider stance (probably hard to make a S&T pivot from a wide stance). Plus a longer backswing allows you to achieve more width in the swing arc...it gives you time to let gravity start the club back down (FON) and find a more natural tempo. You can still apply a lot of power at the end of the downswing, but it will be more effortless. Its a lot easier to accelerate a car from 40mph to 80mph than it is to go from 0 to 60mph.
Maintaining flex in the rear knee will probably make you feel like you are squatting down through the backswing. To a certain extent you are, and you will feel a lot more friction between both your feet and the ground. I guarantee you will see a big difference in power, tempo, and smoothness if you keep that knee flexed.
Its posts like this that will hold your name true for what it is...............The purist ......its post like these that cant get any better said than this
look i'm not saying that everyone has to switch... i'm just saying in my short time of teaching it my students have done very well and i have picked up some pretty good minitour players... (one of which qualifier for 3 nationwide tour events and 1 PGA tour event this year)... as for not getting any younger im freakin 19... lol... also yes that is the concept poe...
as for validation i dont really need any validation... i mean im the youngest instructor in my section and have some big name players... so i think that my students, and their results are enough validation for me....
in Stack and Tilt the left knee bends toward the toes, and the right knee straightens... so hip turn isnt the problem... 45* is what is prescribed and i have that... shoulder turn is supposed to be 90* at min... and mine according to TaylormadePreformanceLabs is over that... look at the top of the swing for charlie wi compared to mine... (we both use S&T) hands go to shoulder height... thats all...
i'm not trying to hit the ball farther 315yds is tot distance for me now... plus making my arms swing farther doesnt create more power...
btw keeping the right knee flexed is the biggest BS thing any teacher will ever say that LIMITS the amount of hip turn and creates balance issues...
I can't see how that kind of swing would produce 315 yds, physically impossible *_*
Pingman - tried s&t at the range the other day and concentrated on raising the spine and getting enough 2nd axis tilt etc...... and guess what! wedges through to 8 iron really good, 7iron through to 5 iron - really bad, hybrids - ok, driver - sucked. Not to worry, thats just me. Your s&t swing looks real good, although it is one of the quickest transitions i have seen with this type of swing. As you have said before - s&t needs a good instructor and they just don't exsist in oz.
So basically S&T is for homos..........I always thought it was. Mike Weir = ho mo. S&T= BM. I am sure your swing is consistent in contact because you barley turn. And a draw doesnt listen , and a fade will. To score in the low 70s consistently requires that you can work the ball both ways from tee to green( there are a few exceptions but very few ). S&T is good for maybe the 8 iron thru wedges. Your swing looks like a broken down caddy swing........ Taylor Made gave you a contract. Hmmmmmm BM on their part.
i'm taklin about from my section... no one you would have heard of... i dont mean like im teaching Vijay or anything just some well known players from my area...
I say do whatever it takes to get the ball in the hole with the less amount of strokes. If that is stack and tilt for you, PM, then sing the song loud and proud.
Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.
So basically S&T is for homos..........I always thought it was. Mike Weir = ho mo. S&T= BM. I am sure your swing is consistent in contact because you barley turn. And a draw doesnt listen , and a fade will. To score in the low 70s consistently requires that you can work the ball both ways from tee to green( there are a few exceptions but very few ). S&T is good for maybe the 8 iron thru wedges. Your swing looks like a broken down caddy swing........ Taylor Made gave you a contract. Hmmmmmm BM on their part.
i havent shot over 78 in a year and a half.... just sayin...
barely turn lol... whatever dont make me get out photos and different camera angles... ok i will say this one more time... my SHOULDER TURN is over 90*, and my arms swing stops when my hands reach my right shoulder... i know you probaly have no idea what i'm talking about but i'll try and dumb it down for you... just because the club isnt parallel at the top doesnt mean i havent turned enough you can turn your shoulders as much as you want and stop your arms short of parallel... also when you shift your spine right you actually decrease your shoulder turn, i could draw lines to show you the measurements, but you wouldnt listen anyways...
i'm taklin about from my section... no one you would have heard of... i dont mean like im teaching Vijay or anything just some well known players from my area...
Sniff sniff....I think I smell something...Anybody else smell that?
I don't want to go all AGB on you, but how did you become a pga professional already? I thought you had to be 18 to start as an apprentice, and be an apprentice for 3 to 4 years. You sure your not just an apprentice. Why would tour guys be getting lessons from an apprentice?
The views expressed by The Purist do not necessarily represent the views of The Purist. Any posts by the Purist should not be relied upon for truth or accuracy, and should be viewed at your own risk.
So basically S&T is for homos..........I always thought it was. Mike Weir = ho mo. S&T= BM. I am sure your swing is consistent in contact because you barley turn. And a draw doesnt listen , and a fade will. To score in the low 70s consistently requires that you can work the ball both ways from tee to green( there are a few exceptions but very few ). S&T is good for maybe the 8 iron thru wedges. Your swing looks like a broken down caddy swing........ Taylor Made gave you a contract. Hmmmmmm BM on their part.
You have a contract with Golf Galaxy or is it Golf Smith. Now that's a BM. I'm just saying.
Sniff sniff....I think I smell something...Anybody else smell that?
I don't want to go all AGB on you, but how did you become a pga professional already? I thought you had to be 18 to start as an apprentice, and be an apprentice for 3 to 4 years. You sure your not just an apprentice. Why would tour guys be getting lessons from an apprentice?
i'm 19... have to be an apprentice for 6mo... did that, and am now certified PGA...
how did i get minitour guys... first off the guy i work for personally endorsed me and told people i was legit... then i went to events, gave lessons for free till i got a reputation for being able to fix people really quick, and it not just being a band aid... then you get a player to win and people start to look at this "kid" as maybe knowing what he's talking about... then you get one of your students to qualify for a PGA tour event then people really start to look at you a bit differently...
look... most people wrote me off right away, but i got 1 or 2 to listen and built off that, i now have my boss the guy who i give a percentage of asking me for advice, and getting me to work on his swing... so i mean ive been very lucky... all this and i'm not even class A, working on that too but it's hard to find time...
i havent shot over 78 in a year and a half.... just sayin...
barely turn lol... whatever dont make me get out photos and different camera angles... ok i will say this one more time... my SHOULDER TURN is over 90*, and my arms swing stops when my hands reach my right shoulder... i know you probaly have no idea what i'm talking about but i'll try and dumb it down for you... just because the club isnt parallel at the top doesnt mean i havent turned enough you can turn your shoulders as much as you want and stop your arms short of parallel... also when you shift your spine right you actually decrease your shoulder turn, i could draw lines to show you the measurements, but you wouldnt listen anyways...
Your shoulder turn is not over 90*, or is it just the video. Please do draw lines to show us.
You have a contract with Golf Galaxy or is it Golf Smith. Now that's a BM. I'm just saying.
LOL................Im just sayin. Have you ever heard of TMAG connection, or even friends who build clubs on tour vans, better yet even just knowing the right people can bring great discounts on the stuff the average public cant find or purchase at such prices, often one of kind merchandise.
Give it up Purist.
This guy only wants us to validate what he is doing. If S&T is his "thing", leave him to it and don't waste your considerable knowledge of the golf swing on him.
Or simply point out his reverse head movement (pen to the center of the head in the vid will show it).
Contrary to most in here, I don't like to comment on some things unless I have some experience with it. I have ordered the "Stack and Tilt" videos and will be trying to implement the swing myself while I have some time this Winter, to see if it will better my game or not. THEN I will comment.
Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.
I've tried S&T again recently at the range and I do get some good results, but it just doesn't feel right. I suspect that my biggest problem is trying to learn a totally new swing from reading stuff on a page. There are no S&T teachers in Oz, so I have never had a lesson from anyone who can tell me if I'm even doing it right. I think if I had some quality tuition, this swing could work.
But having said that, lessons are for chops so I'll just stick to diggin it out of the dirt like a real golfer.
One question PM, is it possible to take some of the things from S&T and incorporate it into what Ialready do, or do you have to go 100% S&T or not at all?
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
I've tried S&T again recently at the range and I do get some good results, but it just doesn't feel right. I suspect that my biggest problem is trying to learn a totally new swing from reading stuff on a page. There are no S&T teachers in Oz, so I have never had a lesson from anyone who can tell me if I'm even doing it right. I think if I had some quality tuition, this swing could work.
But having said that, lessons are for chops so I'll just stick to diggin it out of the dirt like a real golfer.
One question PM, is it possible to take some of the things from S&T and incorporate it into what Ialready do, or do you have to go 100% S&T or not at all?
I think you can, NAH. For instance, I know that one of the things that S&T teaches is to keep the head directly over the ball. I practiced today on just that one detail and nailed the irons pretty good today. I also read another article where it actually said to only work on one or two of the details at a time until you get them all implemented into your swing. I expect to know more after my videos arrive . . . . . .
Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.
I've tried S&T again recently at the range and I do get some good results, but it just doesn't feel right. I suspect that my biggest problem is trying to learn a totally new swing from reading stuff on a page. There are no S&T teachers in Oz, so I have never had a lesson from anyone who can tell me if I'm even doing it right. I think if I had some quality tuition, this swing could work.
But having said that, lessons are for chops so I'll just stick to diggin it out of the dirt like a real golfer.
One question PM, is it possible to take some of the things from S&T and incorporate it into what Ialready do, or do you have to go 100% S&T or not at all?
one of the biggest miconceptions about Stack and tilt is that it is a method swing... a one size fits all deal... but really it's not, sure there are aspects in stack and tilt that will be across the board but really not everyone will do things all the same, i would in fact go as far as to say that no two stack and tilt swings are the same...
so to answer your question, of course you can only implement certain aspects of stack and tilt, and some will be left out... do you know how andy and mike came up with this pattern?? they went to some of mac o'grady's schools because they realized he was on to something took what they learned there and then came up with their inline release model (much like mac has a cp release model, and before that mac used a cf release model)... but what andy and mike did is they looked at all the swings of successful ball-strikers past and present, took aspects from all of them which would would work with their inline release model (according to TGM) and threw out the aspects that wouldn't... look at Nicklaus he had a distinct "tilt" most wont agree but i can show you the photo's that say otherwise, look at tim clark same thing... look at hogans legwork (ei straightening of the right knee)... look at faldo in the early years how he released his spine in the finish, as well as jonny miller.... the list goes on and on...
the unfortunate thing happened when golf digest made the article and asked them to come up with a name for this swing... they didn't want to but because they were told to they came up with stack and tilt through a series of events... so now everyone thinks it's a method swing like natural golf or something when really it's nothing like that at all... look at TA III's swing then Charlie Wi, then Tom Scherrer , then Anna Rawson... some aspects some have some they dont all are SnT though...
it's legit people give it a chance... ive been very lucky to have been taught what i know by andy and mike and they are very classy indivuals... i look forward to contining working with them and learning more...
One question PM, is it possible to take some of the things from S&T and incorporate it into what Ialready do, or do you have to go 100% S&T or not at all?
N.A.H - i have the videos and have had some success with s&t and there are definately elements in the swing that will work with a more traditional swing. The arm and hand movements in s&t at impact and follow through are very close to tgm.
referring to flying wedges, arc of the hands (back,up,in on the backswing - down,out,through etc) - not actively rolling the right hand over the left - more of a swivel instead. Probably just the thoughts that go through my head PM , as N.A.H said dont know of anybody teaching s&t in OZ so its only what i have picked up on the videos as my own interpretation.
I'll stick with some of the S&T stuff that feels good for me. As I said a while ago in an old thread, about 5 or 6 years ago I was absolutely striping it at a range, but was told by a pro that I was dipping the left shoulder on the backswing and that doing that was wrong as I couldn't get consistent contact with that move (even though he had seen me absolutely killing shot after shot long, high and straight. 3 iron a geunine 220 plus yards.). Like an idiot I listened to him and changed my swing, and have never quite recaptured that sort of bal striking again. I wish to hell that pro had been open to S&T and had left me alone.
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
referring to flying wedges, arc of the hands (back,up,in on the backswing - down,out,through etc) - not actively rolling the right hand over the left - more of a swivel instead. Probably just the thoughts that go through my head PM , as N.A.H said dont know of anybody teaching s&t in OZ so its only what i have picked up on the videos as my own interpretation.
hmm... i see i was just a bit confused by what you are saying.... TGM is a catalog of every imaginable golf swing available.... TGM has multiple different pivots, some resembling stack and tilt others not so much... what you are talking about is called angled hinging and is covered in TGM so you are correct... most players use hoizontal hinging (and a few verticle hinging)...
you are correct just clarifying it in your own mind maybe...
I'll stick with some of the S&T stuff that feels good for me. As I said a while ago in an old thread, about 5 or 6 years ago I was absolutely striping it at a range, but was told by a pro that I was dipping the left shoulder on the backswing and that doing that was wrong as I couldn't get consistent contact with that move (even though he had seen me absolutely killing shot after shot long, high and straight. 3 iron a geunine 220 plus yards.). Like an idiot I listened to him and changed my swing, and have never quite recaptured that sort of bal striking again. I wish to hell that pro had been open to S&T and had left me alone.
doesn't surpirse me... and here's why
we play golf on a tilted axis... right?
we can draw this axis at multiple different locations depending on what kind of plane we intend to use... this plane transcribed on the ground is called the path... and this path travels in somewhat of a circle
so since we can agree that the club does not travel in a line straight back and straight through it has to travel on a plane (tilted axis)...
now what does modern instruction tell you? it tells you just what the pro over there said... it say "your left shoulder is too low and that will make your swing too steep"... then they go on to say "you need to keep your head from passing the ball, keep in behind the ball so you can attack it from the inside"... meanwhile you try all this and it leads to poor ballstriking, sure you can get away with it on the driver, but even there you have no accuracy...
so what happens is when you try to get your shoulders more level (or left shoulder less down), and when you keep your head back and retain the spine angle away from the target you do get your shoulders more level, just look at adam scott.... what happens is that you are then actually fighting that inclined plane... you waste motion, and energy and you can't hit it solidly anyways...
so what about coming from the inside, and what about beeing too steep... well i would argue it's easier to hit out at the ball from a weight left, spine left posistion... you have weight left already and this facilitates an inside angle of attack, and you slide the hips even farther left on the DS so no problem there...
what about being too steep... well you hold the flying wedge throughout the swing so there's no real chance of hitting the ground first... and then becaus you slide the hips left on the DS you actually shallow out the AOA so there is again no real problem... also the shoulders being turned at an angle like that does not create the steepness in the swing, but rather just keeps the club traveling on a consistant cicle...
even the "best" instructors tell you that the shoulders need to be perpendiculare to the spine at the top... unfotunatly because of the spin location they want for you the shoulders then have to turn level... just not a good way to do things, and thats not opinion....
i havent shot over 78 in a year and a half.... just sayin...
barely turn lol... whatever dont make me get out photos and different camera angles... ok i will say this one more time... my SHOULDER TURN is over 90*, and my arms swing stops when my hands reach my right shoulder... i know you probaly have no idea what i'm talking about but i'll try and dumb it down for you... just because the club isnt parallel at the top doesnt mean i havent turned enough you can turn your shoulders as much as you want and stop your arms short of parallel... also when you shift your spine right you actually decrease your shoulder turn, i could draw lines to show you the measurements, but you wouldnt listen anyways...
I'd school you on the course. Stack and tilt....Sounds like pancackes and a pinball machine.
we play golf on a tilted axis... right?
we can draw this axis at multiple different locations depending on what kind of plane we intend to use... this plane transcribed on the ground is called the path... and this path travels in somewhat of a circle
so since we can agree that the club does not travel in a line straight back and straight through it has to travel on a plane (tilted axis)...
now what does modern instruction tell you? it tells you just what the pro over there said... it say "your left shoulder is too low and that will make your swing too steep"... then they go on to say "you need to keep your head from passing the ball, keep in behind the ball so you can attack it from the inside"... meanwhile you try all this and it leads to poor ballstriking, sure you can get away with it on the driver, but even there you have no accuracy...
so what happens is when you try to get your shoulders more level (or left shoulder less down), and when you keep your head back and retain the spine angle away from the target you do get your shoulders more level, just look at adam scott.... what happens is that you are then actually fighting that inclined plane... you waste motion, and energy and you can't hit it solidly anyways...
so what about coming from the inside, and what about beeing too steep... well i would argue it's easier to hit out at the ball from a weight left, spine left posistion... you have weight left already and this facilitates an inside angle of attack, and you slide the hips even farther left on the DS so no problem there...
what about being too steep... well you hold the flying wedge throughout the swing so there's no real chance of hitting the ground first... and then becaus you slide the hips left on the DS you actually shallow out the AOA so there is again no real problem... also the shoulders being turned at an angle like that does not create the steepness in the swing, but rather just keeps the club traveling on a consistant cicle...
even the "best" instructors tell you that the shoulders need to be perpendiculare to the spine at the top... unfotunatly because of the spin location they want for you the shoulders then have to turn level... just not a good way to do things, and thats not opinion....
Thanks PM, this makes alot of sense. I'm not saying I'm gonna go S&T, but I will definitely try to get back to my natural feeling swing, which had alotof S&T principles in it.
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
Thanks PM, this makes alot of sense. I'm not saying I'm gonna go S&T, but I will definitely try to get back to my natural feeling swing, which had alotof S&T principles in it.
tim clark is a good example to look at... doesnt work with and andy mike but a really really amazing swing, very good ball-striker he shows many of the principles i was talking about...
I'd school you on the course. Stack and tilt....Sounds like pancackes and a pinball machine.
lots of practice?...genes from your parents?...just blind luck? whats your secret at being a douche?....
Reviewed by: famousdavis , Scratch Golfer
Model Reviewed:
Callaway X-22 Tour
Summary: It's fitting that I'm the first reviewer because there is really no need to read any other reviews. I'm sure I'm the best ballstriker on this board. I work the ball better than anyone I know.
lots of practice?...genes from your parents?...just blind luck? whats your secret at being a douche?....
Reviewed by: famousdavis , Scratch Golfer
Model Reviewed:
Callaway X-22 Tour
Summary: It's fitting that I'm the first reviewer because there is really no need to read any other reviews. I'm sure I'm the best ballstriker on this board. I work the ball better than anyone I know.
I guess it goes without saying that you play the X-22 tour. Don't worry, the other testicle will drop eventually.
Had a game at a championship course two days ago with the thoughts I picked up from this thread and had one of my best ball striking days in ages. I hit 8 of 11 fairways (all down the pipe, shortest drive about 230 metres/ longest 271 metres), and hit 8 GIR with another 4 just off the green on the fringe (most pin high or longer). I concentrated on keeping my head over the ball on the backswing, and getting my body leading the arms and hands through the downswing which was made easier when not letting my head move back off the ball in the backswing. I hit nearly every mid and short iron pure off the middle of the sweetspot. I struggled a little score wise as the pins were extremely tough and the greens were slick, but managed to shoot a respectable 84. S&T may ot be for everyone, but there are defiitely some things about it that work well for me.
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
Had a game at a championship course two days ago with the thoughts I picked up from this thread and had one of my best ball striking days in ages. I hit 8 of 11 fairways (all down the pipe, shortest drive about 230 metres/ longest 271 metres), and hit 8 GIR with another 4 just off the green on the fringe (most pin high or longer). I concentrated on keeping my head over the ball on the backswing, and getting my body leading the arms and hands through the downswing which was made easier when not letting my head move back off the ball in the backswing. I hit nearly every mid and short iron pure off the middle of the sweetspot. I struggled a little score wise as the pins were extremely tough and the greens were slick, but managed to shoot a respectable 84. S&T may ot be for everyone, but there are defiitely some things about it that work well for me.
I've been concentrating on these parts of the swing as well and have also been getting some good results. One thing I have learned though is that you have to concentrate on doing it on every shot. Any lapse in concentration, or trying to think about too many things in your swing, can lead to disastrous results.
Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.
went back and read the entire thread again, and i think i missed of what some people said...
I'm am not fishing for kudos, and i don't want compliments... i am simply sharing information... stack and tilt is not as radical as it is made out to be, and even if you don't take it on full bore, there are still a lot of valid points it makes... thats all...
also i just saw that i deleted my swings, i need to put some more back up here in high speed...
and to NAH, as well as Sooner: glad to hear that it's helped out some... yall should post some videos when ya get some time, just to show the others that even if you don't go full out it can still help...
I did the two tee drill you suggested in another post. I must say I like this drill. Similar to gloves under the pit but improved. I found this on YouTube showing the drill. http://www.youtube.com/user/nclearwa.../9/9u56Y6o456w Curious what you think of this guys videos?
I've been concentrating on these parts of the swing as well and have also been getting some good results. One thing I have learned though is that you have to concentrate on doing it on every shot. Any lapse in concentration, or trying to think about too many things in your swing, can lead to disastrous results.
Agree with this. For me, the couple of times I got too preoccupied with too many swing thoughts, I forgot to get my lower body moving first and hit an awful cold top. But overall I was very happy with my ballstriking.
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
I did the two tee drill you suggested in another post. I must say I like this drill. Similar to gloves under the pit but improved. I found this on YouTube showing the drill. http://www.youtube.com/user/nclearwa.../9/9u56Y6o456w Curious what you think of this guys videos?
I've actually worked with nick (his name is nick clearwater)... he's an awesome instructor and knows his stuff... he actually sets up the schools for andy and mike (andy and mike do like seminar type schools and he's the coordinator for the east coast) so i would say he definatly knows his stuff... him and mike were the first ones i got the drill from actually...
obviously andy and mike are the first choice to go to, but there are a couple other guys who are right behind them imo (all of which have learned under andy and mike)...
he has another flying wedge/mike bennett drill video which is also excellent as well...
also if youre interested i can get you his information if you want to attend one pf the S&T schools i'm not sure about the price but i think that the 2 day school is right around $2k...
I did the two tee drill you suggested in another post. I must say I like this drill. Similar to gloves under the pit but improved. I found this on YouTube showing the drill. http://www.youtube.com/user/nclearwa.../9/9u56Y6o456w Curious what you think of this guys videos?
Very good vid. I couldn't see that this guy was S&T, but he did mention the S&T gurus so he obviously was (I make this comment to point out that S&T actually looks alot less complicated in full swing than it does in still shots of it's component parts). I did see that he didn't move his head off the ball during the backswing, and got his body moving nicely through the hitting area. I really think that moving your head to the right during the backswing adds a massive variable to the swing that is hard to time perfectly without lot's of practice. By keeping your head over the ball during the entire swing, you are guaranteed to have your head and spine in the correct position at impact without relying on timing.
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
Very good vid. I couldn't tell if that guy was S&T or not, but he did mention the S&T gurus so I'm assuming he was. I noticed that he didn't move his head off the ball during the backswing, and got his body moving nicely through the hitting area. I really think that moving your head to the right duirng the backswing adds a massive variable to the swing that is hard to time perfectly without lot's of practice. By keeping your head over the ball during the entire swing, you are guaranteed to have your head and spine in the correct position at impact without relying on timing.
oh, he's def stack and tilt.... lol...
he's big on the flying wedge and an inward hand path, which imo are good points and some of the most essential to the method...
he's big on the flying wedge and an inward hand path, which imo are good points and some of the most essential to the method...
I actrually didn't get across what I was trying to say properly. I have edited my post to better define my point that S&T looks very natural and technically sound when viewed in full motion. You really have to know what to look for to pick it, as it just looks like a very sound, fluid swing to me.
The views expressed by Not a Hacker are not meant to be understood by you primitive screw heads. Don't take it personally, just sit back and enjoy the writings of your better.
I actrually didn't get across what I was trying to say properly. I have edited my post to better define my point that S&T looks very natural and technically sound when viewed in full motion. You really have to know what to look for to pick it, as it just looks like a very sound, fluid swing to me.
thats an excellent point, look at sean o'hair... he has a lot of stack and tilt elements (since sean folley is basically teaching him that method) and all the announcers love his swing...
yet troy matteson who is taught by mr plummer and bennett (and thus under the stack and tilt umbrella) has a swing that is flawed and too easy to fall apart (according to the announcers)... it's all about perception really...
Contrary to most in here, I don't like to comment on some things unless I have some experience with it. I have ordered the "Stack and Tilt" videos and will be trying to implement the swing myself while I have some time this Winter, to see if it will better my game or not. THEN I will comment.
What do you think about the SnT videos Sooner? I was thinking about getting them as well since I'm feeling comfortable with my swing lately. It must be time to change things!
They're cheap too aren't they? $25.00
team obnoxious
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WITB: Hybrids. The ones that took FamousDavis down......
What do you think about the SnT videos Sooner? I was thinking about getting them as well since I'm feeling comfortable with my swing lately. It must be time to change things!
They're cheap too aren't they? $25.00
i know this was directed at sooner... but if you don't mind i'll chime in....
i watched the videos about a year and a half prior to actually going to andy and mike... and while i somewhat thought i understood the priciples, when i got to the school i realized i was way off on most things... the videos are nice, theyre great really but imo it's best to lear from the est... if you can afford the $2k to attend the 2-day school i recommend that... if your looking for basic principles on the method or even about the golf swing imo the book was MUCH better... they wrote a book which just cam out in november (maybe oct idr) and it's pretty good... your not going to get the detail, but unless you ask the right questions your not going to get overloaded with detail at the schools either...
for just the average golfer your not going to be teaching anyone really, and if your helping them out the basics are just fine to give them so i think that as long as you know someone who knows the pattern and can monitor your swing and tell you when it's wrong and when it's right... the books and DVD would be ok...
i know this was directed at sooner... but if you don't mind i'll chime in....
i watched the videos about a year and a half prior to actually going to andy and mike... and while i somewhat thought i understood the priciples, when i got to the school i realized i was way off on most things... the videos are nice, theyre great really but imo it's best to lear from the est... if you can afford the $2k to attend the 2-day school i recommend that... if your looking for basic principles on the method or even about the golf swing imo the book was MUCH better... they wrote a book which just cam out in november (maybe oct idr) and it's pretty good... your not going to get the detail, but unless you ask the right questions your not going to get overloaded with detail at the schools either...
for just the average golfer your not going to be teaching anyone really, and if your helping them out the basics are just fine to give them so i think that as long as you know someone who knows the pattern and can monitor your swing and tell you when it's wrong and when it's right... the books and DVD would be ok...
again just my opinion...
2k?? HA! Now that's funny! Now I may have spent 2k in equipment but another 2k to Learn how to use it? That sir, would be unAmerican!
team obnoxious
===============================================
WITB: Hybrids. The ones that took FamousDavis down......
What do you think about the SnT videos Sooner? I was thinking about getting them as well since I'm feeling comfortable with my swing lately. It must be time to change things!
They're cheap too aren't they? $25.00
Currently, the videos are sitting on my mantle. I haven't had time to look at them with all the Holiday shite going on. BUT, I will do so soon . . . .
Mizuno irons -- made by Hattori Hanzo, forged in the fires of Mt. Fujiyama.
2k?? HA! Now that's funny! Now I may have spent 2k in equipment but another 2k to Learn how to use it? That sir, would be unAmerican!
I think we are on the verge of a "Why 2K?" fiasco......
It could represent the threat of the destruction of the human race....... or quite possibly even worse.....
Advice appreciated! I just can't afford 2k for lessons. That's all. Hell right now I can't afford the $100 for the videos! (I went back and read the whole deal)
Thanks though!
team obnoxious
===============================================
WITB: Hybrids. The ones that took FamousDavis down......
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Originally Posted by Home-slicer
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