Ott Help

[noshuz]

At the risk of sounding like Larry I wanted to share a little practice drill I tried yesterday. After totally screwing up my swing with video and bad practice I started coming OTT the last 6 months and lost my my draw that I've always had. Laying down 2 clubs, One on the target line and the other to represent swing path, was enough to get me going ITO. I hit 100 balls laying down 10 at a time hitting 7i, 20*hybrid then driver. It worked! Anyway, if yer having the OTT blues, give it a try.

[edgey]

At the risk of sounding like Larry I wanted to share a little practice drill I tried yesterday. After totally screwing up my swing with video and bad practice I started coming OTT the last 6 months and lost my my draw that I've always had. Laying down 2 clubs, One on the target line and the other to represent swing path, was enough to get me going ITO. I hit 100 balls laying down 10 at a time hitting 7i, 20*hybrid then driver. It worked! Anyway, if yer having the OTT blues, give it a try.

Wrong practice drill you numpty

Hit 1000 balls a day for 1 year with a heavy, stiff shafted blade 1 iron. At the end of that year you wont be able to break 100.

Hope that helps

Edgey

[noshuz]

Wrong practice drill you numpty

Hit 1000 balls a day for 1 year with a heavy, stiff shafted blade 1 iron. At the end of that year you wont be able to break 100.

Hope that helps

Edgey

That would be in slow motion while focusing my chi as well right?

[edgey]

That would be in slow motion while focusing my chi as well right?

Post the video ASAP

Edgey

[connecticutter]

Don't forget hitting blindfolded, 6 degree 200 cc steel headed drivers while barefoot and off the deck.

[Larryrsf]

At the risk of sounding like Larry I wanted to share a little practice drill I tried yesterday. After totally screwing up my swing with video and bad practice I started coming OTT the last 6 months and lost my my draw that I've always had. Laying down 2 clubs, One on the target line and the other to represent swing path, was enough to get me going ITO. I hit 100 balls laying down 10 at a time hitting 7i, 20*hybrid then driver. It worked! Anyway, if yer having the OTT blues, give it a try.

OTT is simply allowing our shoulders to pass our hips. Instead of "turn, plant, swing" you are swinging before you plant your front foot. You lag back. So your back hip blocks your arms from bringing the clubhead from the inside-- so it comes in from the outside, swipes across the ball outside-to-in and imparts slice spin.

There are many ways to reduce or eliminate that fault and replace it with the correct sequence. Among them is what Jim Flick teaches, to rehearse your swing like you are hitting a ball teed as waist height. Exaggerate the step toward the pitcher before you swing. Your hips will lead your shoulders: " Turn, plant, swing." Get that feeling, then quickly hit the golf ball before you lose it.

Another way is to swing with feet together or MUCH closer than you normally would. Keep weight on your front foot throughout your backswing like Hogan did. Sure makes it easier to get forward before impact. You won't lose any distance and you WILL hit draws because you will bring the clubhead from the inside.

Later

[Not a hacker]

OTT is simply allowing our shoulders to pass our hips. Instead of "turn, plant, swing" you are swinging before you plant your front foot. You lag back. So your back hip blocks your arms from bringing the clubhead from the inside-- so it comes in from the outside, swipes across the ball outside-to-in and imparts slice spin.

There are many ways to reduce or eliminate that fault and replace it with the correct sequence. Among them is what Jim Flick teaches, to rehearse your swing like you are hitting a ball teed as waist height. Exaggerate the step toward the pitcher before you swing. Your hips will lead your shoulders: " Turn, plant, swing." Get that feeling, then quickly hit the golf ball before you lose it. I'm too young to care about what a bum like Hogan did, but I'd still be very surprised if he kept his weight on the front foot during the backswing as you purport.

Another way is to swing with feet together or MUCH closer than you normally would. Keep weight on your front foot throughout your backswing like Hogan did. Sure makes it easier to get forward before impact. You won't lose any distance and you WILL hit draws because you will bring the clubhead from the inside.

Later

Wrong. As someone who has had recent trouble with ball striking (includding OTT swings), the simple solution for me was to focus on moving my weight onto the right foot to start the backswing. From this position you start the downswing from a position where you can easily transfer your weight onto a firm left side, and the clubhead automatically slots into an inside path. Keeping your weight on your front foot during the swing means there is basically no weight shift to start the downsing, as your weight is already there. This makes it difficult to get get your lower body moving first and leading the arms and hands, which is paramount to getting a pure strike.

The only possible exception to this is maybe S&T, which seems to promote keeping your weight on the left side throughout the backswing (PM can confirm or rebuke this).

[Larryrsf]

Wrong. As someone who has had recent trouble with ball striking (includding OTT swings), the simple solution for me was to focus on moving my weight onto the right foot to start the backswing. From this position you start the downswing from a position where you can easily transfer your weight onto a firm left side, and the clubhead automatically slots into an inside path. Keeping your weight on your front foot during the swing means there is basically no weight shift to start the downsing, as your weight is already there. This makes it difficult to get get your lower body moving first and leading the arms and hands, which is paramount to getting a pure strike.

The only possible exception to this is maybe S&T, which seems to promote keeping your weight on the left side throughout the backswing (PM can confirm or rebuke this).

And Hogan, ha. Look at his swing. He kept significant weight forward and had the best transition weight shift of any golfer EVER, according to McClane, Leadbetter, and others. Hogan found a way to accelerate through the ball with every club. Amazing because he did it from a wide stance. The golfer Hogan most admired at the time was Jimmy Demeret, who played with feet nearly together--

Larry

[Not a hacker]

And Hogan, ha. Look at his swing. He kept significant weight forward and had the best transition weight shift of any golfer EVER, according to McClane, Leadbetter, and others. Hogan found a way to accelerate through the ball with every club. Amazing because he did it from a wide stance. The golfer Hogan most admired at the time was Jimmy Demeret, who played with feet nearly together--

Larry

I'm too young to know what that overrated bum Hogan did, but I'd be very surprised if he kept his weight on his front foot during the backswing as you purport

[golfaholic]

I'm too youg

I stopped reading right here, as I refuse to read more ******** than I have to.

And I think you meant "young"?

[Not a hacker]

I stopped reading right here, as I refuse to read more ******** than I have to.

And I think you meant "young"?

Thanks for pointing that out, you barely literate Canadian hillbilly. There is a thing caled typos.

[Globalhelpdesk]

Gee Whizz Golfaholic your startin to sound like dorkman. you spelling nazi butch.
G H D

[SoonerBS]

Hey, GA, do they really shut the courses down in Canada over the winter? I know that often they likely become snowpacked, but Winter has come a little later this year hasn't it?

[Globalhelpdesk]

Hey, GA, do they really shut the courses down in Canada over the winter? I know that often they likely become snowpacked, but Winter has come a little later this year hasn't it?

Sooner

I believe the courses in the winter become fudgepack in Canada.



G H D

[noshuz]

Oh my! Look what I've done! I've pulled all kinds of people out of the woodwork and I really wasn't intentionally trolling.....kinda. Almost brings a tear to my eye.
ALAN!!! Where are you?!! Ollie Ollie Umsumfreeeeeee!!!
Lary, Say hello to FamousDavis. He's our latest resident DB. He knows alot about making the perfect golf swing too!

[Horseballs]

OTT is simply allowing our shoulders to pass our hips. Instead of "turn, plant, swing" you are swinging before you plant your front foot. You lag back. So your back hip blocks your arms from bringing the clubhead from the inside-- so it comes in from the outside, swipes across the ball outside-to-in and imparts slice spin.

There are many ways to reduce or eliminate that fault and replace it with the correct sequence. Among them is what Jim Flick teaches, to rehearse your swing like you are hitting a ball teed as waist height. Exaggerate the step toward the pitcher before you swing. Your hips will lead your shoulders: " Turn, plant, swing." Get that feeling, then quickly hit the golf ball before you lose it.

Another way is to swing with feet together or MUCH closer than you normally would. Keep weight on your front foot throughout your backswing like Hogan did. Sure makes it easier to get forward before impact. You won't lose any distance and you WILL hit draws because you will bring the clubhead from the inside.

Later

OTT doesn't always impart slice spin. For me, it's a pull-hook every time.
I actually do follow Larry's method for the most part. For me, if I try to pause at the top with my shoulder/arm swing, everything starts from the ground up and I come into the ball from the inside.

[poe4soul]

I agree on the pull hook comment. Better players will smother the ball and get a low pull or pull-hook.

There are other causes of the OTT move. One would be taking the club too far to the inside and flat in the back swing. From this "stuck" position you have not choice then to come up and over the top looking like a tennis serve. It's the opposite loop of the Furyk move.

I would suggest trying to get your right hand in a stone skipping throw movement. If the palm stays facing up and on plane until you release your hinged left hand it's hard to come over the top and will always be from the inside. Your shoulders should naturally do their job from this position. I personally think weight shift should come naturally and not forced.

Larry, I can hit off my back foot and not come over the top. I think Hogans move where he drops his right arm down removes any possibility of the an over the top move.

[Larryrsf]

OTT doesn't always impart slice spin. For me, it's a pull-hook every time.
I actually do follow Larry's method for the most part. For me, if I try to pause at the top with my shoulder/arm swing, everything starts from the ground up and I come into the ball from the inside.

Video yourself from the back. You will likely see that you lift the club up over your head on top instead of keeping it down over your shoulders on plane. Your lead hand wrist is forced into a big "cup" by your dominant hand.

When you downswing from that position your shoulders will lead your lower body. Your back hip will not clear, which forces your arms outside the target line. Your clubhead will travel to the ball from the outside--and swipe across the back of the ball. The ball will slice--OR pull-hook if you have closed the clubhead--again your dominant hand taking over your golf swing.

Slice and pull-hook are the same fault, the failure to "turn, plant, swing" instead of "turn, swing" as most amateurs do.

See my post above for the answer-- which is to train your lead side to lead! The golf swing is a backhand, the lead arm and hand PULLING the clubhead through impact. ONLY the lead arm and hand can put the club on plane on top. Relax your dominant hand and it will happen automatically. THE reason golfers wear a glove on their lead hand- is because the golf swing is a backhand. The dominant hand should be "only along for the ride" according to dozens of famous experts.

It is probably impossible to correctly perform the transition weight shift, to "POST" before swinging, if your dominant hand has control of the golf club. Your dominant side is "behind" the ball, so your brain knows your weight should be on your back foot. Golf clubs were NOT designed to be PUSHED through the ball. Golfers who cannot "subdue" their dominant hand are doomed to wild erratic golf-- and deceleration before impact. --according to Bobby Jones.

Larry

[noshuz]

THE reason golfers wear a glove on their lead hand- is because the golf swing is a backhand.

Larry

I thought It was that Michael Jackson thing. You know, Just beat it. Beat it. Just tee it up and beat it!
.....And I payed so much more money for the glove with the rhinestones......

[alangbaker]

Video yourself from the back. You will likely see that you lift the club up over your head on top instead of keeping it down over your shoulders on plane. Your lead hand wrist is forced into a big "cup" by your dominant hand.

When you downswing from that position your shoulders will lead your lower body. Your back hip will not clear, which forces your arms outside the target line. Your clubhead will travel to the ball from the outside--and swipe across the back of the ball. The ball will slice--OR pull-hook if you have closed the clubhead--again your dominant hand taking over your golf swing.

Slice and pull-hook are the same fault, the failure to "turn, plant, swing" instead of "turn, swing" as most amateurs do.

See my post above for the answer-- which is to train your lead side to lead! The golf swing is a backhand, the lead arm and hand PULLING the clubhead through impact. ONLY the lead arm and hand can put the club on plane on top. Relax your dominant hand and it will happen automatically. THE reason golfers wear a glove on their lead hand- is because the golf swing is a backhand. The dominant hand should be "only along for the ride" according to dozens of famous experts.

It is probably impossible to correctly perform the transition weight shift, to "POST" before swinging, if your dominant hand has control of the golf club. Your dominant side is "behind" the ball, so your brain knows your weight should be on your back foot. Golf clubs were NOT designed to be PUSHED through the ball. Golfers who cannot "subdue" their dominant hand are doomed to wild erratic golf-- and deceleration before impact. --according to Bobby Jones.

Sorry, Larry, but the only advice you've ever offered that was ever any good was not to take swing advice from high handicappers.

What are you right now? A 17 and going higher.

[poe4soul]

Video yourself from the back. You will likely see that you lift the club up over your head on top instead of keeping it down over your shoulders on plane. Your lead hand wrist is forced into a big "cup" by your dominant hand.

When you downswing from that position your shoulders will lead your lower body. Your back hip will not clear, which forces your arms outside the target line. Your clubhead will travel to the ball from the outside--and swipe across the back of the ball. The ball will slice--OR pull-hook if you have closed the clubhead--again your dominant hand taking over your golf swing.

Slice and pull-hook are the same fault, the failure to "turn, plant, swing" instead of "turn, swing" as most amateurs do.

See my post above for the answer-- which is to train your lead side to lead! The golf swing is a backhand, the lead arm and hand PULLING the clubhead through impact. ONLY the lead arm and hand can put the club on plane on top. Relax your dominant hand and it will happen automatically. THE reason golfers wear a glove on their lead hand- is because the golf swing is a backhand. The dominant hand should be "only along for the ride" according to dozens of famous experts.

It is probably impossible to correctly perform the transition weight shift, to "POST" before swinging, if your dominant hand has control of the golf club. Your dominant side is "behind" the ball, so your brain knows your weight should be on your back foot. Golf clubs were NOT designed to be PUSHED through the ball. Golfers who cannot "subdue" their dominant hand are doomed to wild erratic golf-- and deceleration before impact. --according to Bobby Jones.

Larry

Larry, your OTT swing fault is the overhand move that causes the OTT move not the rotation. The lifting is the OTT move not the rotation. I would guess that you are getting your tennis serve sequence and your golf swing sequence confused. If you get the club behind and below your shoulder and not over the top and above you shoulder then you have no choice but to lead with your body.

I would say most swing faults of a beginner golfer is the release of the hands or the flail of the club. This causes all kinds of problems from casting to flipping of the wrists at impact.

The first biggest fault of a teacher is to assume that their own mistakes/faults are their student's swing faults. Life would be easy if this was the case but it's not.

[Mizuno>Ping]

Aww man, this would really be fun if FDB's here.

He would be the stripper in the bachelor's party - getting things started.

FDB vs. Larry = Pacquiao vs. Mayweather Jr.

[Horseballs]

Video yourself from the back. You will likely see that you lift the club up over your head on top instead of keeping it down over your shoulders on plane. Your lead hand wrist is forced into a big "cup" by your dominant hand.

When you downswing from that position your shoulders will lead your lower body. Your back hip will not clear, which forces your arms outside the target line. Your clubhead will travel to the ball from the outside--and swipe across the back of the ball. The ball will slice--OR pull-hook if you have closed the clubhead--again your dominant hand taking over your golf swing.

Slice and pull-hook are the same fault, the failure to "turn, plant, swing" instead of "turn, swing" as most amateurs do.

See my post above for the answer-- which is to train your lead side to lead! The golf swing is a backhand, the lead arm and hand PULLING the clubhead through impact. ONLY the lead arm and hand can put the club on plane on top. Relax your dominant hand and it will happen automatically. THE reason golfers wear a glove on their lead hand- is because the golf swing is a backhand. The dominant hand should be "only along for the ride" according to dozens of famous experts.

It is probably impossible to correctly perform the transition weight shift, to "POST" before swinging, if your dominant hand has control of the golf club. Your dominant side is "behind" the ball, so your brain knows your weight should be on your back foot. Golf clubs were NOT designed to be PUSHED through the ball. Golfers who cannot "subdue" their dominant hand are doomed to wild erratic golf-- and deceleration before impact. --according to Bobby Jones.

Larry

How do you infer any of this bullsh!t from my post? I don't swing OTT, but when I do it's a pull hook that goes about 3 miles. It's called having a proper release.

[noshuz]

LOL! This like shootin fish in a barrel!! You f.uckers are funneeee!

[Larryrsf]

Larry, your OTT swing fault is the overhand move that causes the OTT move not the rotation. The lifting is the OTT move not the rotation. I would guess that you are getting your tennis serve sequence and your golf swing sequence confused. If you get the club behind and below your shoulder and not over the top and above you shoulder then you have no choice but to lead with your body.

I would say most swing faults of a beginner golfer is the release of the hands or the flail of the club. This causes all kinds of problems from casting to flipping of the wrists at impact.

The first biggest fault of a teacher is to assume that their own mistakes/faults are their student's swing faults. Life would be easy if this was the case but it's not.

Better ask any teaching pro. You are wildly wrong. Hogan was right in that starting with hips or the weight shift to the front foot is "the most important thing in the golf swing." AND, the worst or at least most common mistake is failure to do that-- as Hogan says, you will hit the OUTSIDE of the ball and that means slice. That is OTT.

TPI and other authorities say 90%+ of amateurs fail to start with"lower body." That means that 90% are starting with shoulders and that is OTT to me. 90% cannot "turn, plant, swing." Most just turn and swing, club in their dominant hand. They decelerate and block their own swing with the hip that failed to clear. Most learn to compensate by closing the clubface with hands. Go to any range and watch EVERY amateur addressing with the clubhead closed. Their subconscious knows what is going to happen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

Larry

[alangbaker]

Better ask any teaching pro. You are wildly wrong. Hogan was right in that starting with hips or the weight shift to the front foot is "the most important thing in the golf swing." AND, the worst or at least most common mistake is failure to do that-- as Hogan says, you will hit the OUTSIDE of the ball and that means slice. That is OTT.

I love the way you'll depend on an authority until you personally don't want to emulate that authority. Then the authority is suddenly wrong and you are right.

Examples: You depend on Hogan about the lower body, but now that you're no longer putting your arms in the "giving blood" position, you claim that Hogan's instruction in that area is incorrect.

Similarly, you depend on Shawn Clement for "turn, plant, swing" but then turn around and ignore the fact that he talks explicitly about using the dominant hand:

Left hand or right hand?

TPI and other authorities say 90%+ of amateurs fail to start with"lower body." That means that 90% are starting with shoulders and that is OTT to me. 90% cannot "turn, plant, swing." Most just turn and swing, club in their dominant hand. They decelerate and block their own swing with the hip that failed to clear. Most learn to compensate by closing the clubface with hands. Go to any range and watch EVERY amateur addressing with the clubhead closed. Their subconscious knows what is going to happen.

Let's call this what it is: bull. TPI never said any such thing. You parrot it because instructor after instructor has been unable to fix what is clearly your biggest flaw.

If you care to dispute this, let's see the quotes that support what you say, Larry.

[poe4soul]

Better ask any teaching pro. You are wildly wrong. Hogan was right in that starting with hips or the weight shift to the front foot is "the most important thing in the golf swing." AND, the worst or at least most common mistake is failure to do that-- as Hogan says, you will hit the OUTSIDE of the ball and that means slice. That is OTT.

TPI and other authorities say 90%+ of amateurs fail to start with"lower body." That means that 90% are starting with shoulders and that is OTT to me. 90% cannot "turn, plant, swing." Most just turn and swing, club in their dominant hand. They decelerate and block their own swing with the hip that failed to clear. Most learn to compensate by closing the clubface with hands. Go to any range and watch EVERY amateur addressing with the clubhead closed. Their subconscious knows what is going to happen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

Larry

Your wildly wrong! I said beginner not amateur. Big difference. But I would argue that flat left wrist at impact is the only imperative to making a repeatable swing.

I will give that if you are on plane and then make an aggressive move with the shoulders you'll come over the top. But that is not the only cause of on OTT move. If your hands start above the swing plane in the downswing, and you don't have a move like furyk or sergio where you drop the hands into the slot, you are going to make an OTT move.

I guess you forgot about the swing lesson you posted where the pro used words like making a flatter swing, left arm behind and hit from the inside. He also noted that you footwork, translate weight shift, is symptomatic of your ott move. Not the other way around that you've posted here. If you can get the club behind you and turn from a side arm like your skipping rocks move the OTT move will go away and the body will learn that you can power the swing with the lower body. Here's your own link unless you forgot about it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PNAa...eature=channel

Everyone of you tips on this and other DB's go to one of your faults or a past lesson that you have had. If it's not a past lesson then it's the this hogan video. That doesn't mean everyone with the same faults and needs the same tips as you. A fault can be a chain reaction to another fault like your footwork.

So you can 90% of the time bet that you are wrong if you think other people have the same swing fault or cause of their swing fault that you do.

btw - You do realize that Hogan has a rotary one plane golf swing. You do realize also that you don't and shouldn't since you are not very flexible. So showing a rotary style swing to compare to your two plane swing has to be very confusing.

[TexasJeff]

I try to get the down swing started by turning the hips, making sure my left leg plants w/o swaying......holy hell I am sounding like Larry here time for a beer.

[Larryrsf]

Your wildly wrong! I said beginner not amateur. Big difference. But I would argue that flat left wrist at impact is the only imperative to making a repeatable swing.

I will give that if you are on plane and then make an aggressive move with the shoulders you'll come over the top. But that is not the only cause of on OTT move. If your hands start above the swing plane in the downswing, and you don't have a move like furyk or sergio where you drop the hands into the slot, you are going to make an OTT move.

I guess you forgot about the swing lesson you posted where the pro used words like making a flatter swing, left arm behind and hit from the inside. He also noted that you footwork, translate weight shift, is symptomatic of your ott move. Not the other way around that you've posted here. If you can get the club behind you and turn from a side arm like your skipping rocks move the OTT move will go away and the body will learn that you can power the swing with the lower body. Here's your own link unless you forgot about it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PNAa...eature=channel

Everyone of you tips on this and other DB's go to one of your faults or a past lesson that you have had. If it's not a past lesson then it's the this hogan video. That doesn't mean everyone with the same faults and needs the same tips as you. A fault can be a chain reaction to another fault like your footwork.

So you can 90% of the time bet that you are wrong if you think other people have the same swing fault or cause of their swing fault that you do.

btw - You do realize that Hogan has a rotary one plane golf swing. You do realize also that you don't and shouldn't since you are not very flexible. So showing a rotary style swing to compare to your two plane swing has to be very confusing.

The pro was trying to get me to downswing in the correct sequence. It is a fact that when we push our hands away at setup we will backswing flatter--and more like baseball. The more like that the more a golfer tends to start with lower body instead of shoulders.

What he should have told me was that the lead hand and arm automatically place the club on plane on top-- IF the lead hand is not overriden by the dominant hand-- which always pushes the club up over the correct plane, usually over our head instead of over our shoulders. PGA pros are reluctant to tell students that-- because it can take weeks of hard work for a student to teach his lead side to lead--to develop the strength and control to swing a golf club with his non-dominant hand and arm.

But that is the reality of golf-- And Bobby Jones said it best--that the entrance fee to consistent golf is learning to "subdue" or dominant hand, arm, side. Our lead side must lead--because the golf swing is a backhand.

I have been working on that for several weeks now-- and I can hit a ONE iron consistently straight. Don't try that if you can't stop your dominant hand from ruining every shot.

Larry

[poe4soul]

What he should have told me was that the lead hand and arm automatically place the club on plane on top-- IF the lead hand is not overriden by the dominant hand-- which always pushes the club up over the correct plane, usually over our head instead of over our shoulders. PGA pros are reluctant to tell students that-- because it can take weeks of hard work for a student to teach his lead side to lead--to develop the strength and control to swing a golf club with his non-dominant hand and arm.

But that is the reality of golf-- And Bobby Jones said it best--that the entrance fee to consistent golf is learning to "subdue" or dominant hand, arm, side. Our lead side must lead--because the golf swing is a backhand.

I have been working on that for several weeks now-- and I can hit a ONE iron consistently straight. Don't try that if you can't stop your dominant hand from ruining every shot.

Larry

Here we go with your latest "lead arm mantra".
Larry, don't get me wrong. What you do with your swing is great. But it's your swing. It may not have anything to do anything with another persons swing. You don't know that everyone else has the same problem as you, so don't present as the only solution.

I don't totally agree with your analysis of your lesson. I think the pro is right and you are also right. If you can keep the back shoulder/hands from coming up and over the plane you'll cure your OTT move. Subsequently you'll cure your weight transition problem.

I bet you money the OTT is from your tennis serve motion. It's the same shoulder motion and even your follow through were you drag your back foot around and squared is very tennis looking. I bet you just have a sequencing problem carried over from tennis and the tennis serve is OTT by design.

Curious, did you get a chance to read this paper?

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/power.htm

Here's one he produced on the OTT move. It has some very good tips.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/OTTmove.htm

[FreakOfNature]

The pro was trying to get me to downswing in the correct sequence. It is a fact that when we push our hands away at setup we will backswing flatter--and more like baseball. The more like that the more a golfer tends to start with lower body instead of shoulders.

What he should have told me was that the lead hand and arm automatically place the club on plane on top-- IF the lead hand is not overriden by the dominant hand-- which always pushes the club up over the correct plane, usually over our head instead of over our shoulders. PGA pros are reluctant to tell students that-- because it can take weeks of hard work for a student to teach his lead side to lead--to develop the strength and control to swing a golf club with his non-dominant hand and arm.

But that is the reality of golf-- And Bobby Jones said it best--that the entrance fee to consistent golf is learning to "subdue" or dominant hand, arm, side. Our lead side must lead--because the golf swing is a backhand.

I have been working on that for several weeks now-- and I can hit a ONE iron consistently straight. Don't try that if you can't stop your dominant hand from ruining every shot.

Larry

First off - and someone had to say this sooner or later so allow me... Larry, if you had any clue how to stop coming OTT then you WOULDN'T still be coming over the top.

You say your pro was trying to teach you how to downswing in the correct sequence, correct? How are you supposed to do that if your first move down is always the wrong one?

The CORRECT first move down from the top of backswing position isn't to TURN, it is to DROP THE HANDS straight down (while maintaining the same shaft plane) toward your back hip. This is often done in combination with a slight forward move (or "bump") of the front hip towards the target, which initiates the forward weight transfer. THEN and only then should you initiate your turn. By doing this, you drop your hands under the backswing plane which forces you to reroute the club onto an inside-out path (you'll miss the ball if you don't) once you initiate your pivot with the "turn, plant, swing" move.

That's the correct sequence.

You'll find that by using this sequence you'll get a natural and automatic correct weight transfer, which will eliminate the need for any deliberate manipulation of your feet - such as the move you make now. One last thing - if you do all of the above correctly but get flippy with your hands - welcome to the wonderful world of snap-hooks. Think about keeping a smooth, steady tempo and it'll help prevent a flippy release.

For once, just forget about everything you've read or been told. Everything you need to know to start hitting draws is in this post. Go do it and post your first ever draw swing video. I DARE YOU.

Do it and I will include the line "Larry is a ballstriking genius" in my sig for a month.



FON

[alangbaker]

The pro was trying to get me to downswing in the correct sequence. It is a fact that when we push our hands away at setup we will backswing flatter--and more like baseball. The more like that the more a golfer tends to start with lower body instead of shoulders.

What he should have told me was that the lead hand and arm automatically place the club on plane on top-- IF the lead hand is not overriden by the dominant hand-- which always pushes the club up over the correct plane, usually over our head instead of over our shoulders. PGA pros are reluctant to tell students that-- because it can take weeks of hard work for a student to teach his lead side to lead--to develop the strength and control to swing a golf club with his non-dominant hand and arm.

Ah! The refuge of the narcissist: "I'm getting special knowledge that you peons couldn't get...".

But that is the reality of golf-- And Bobby Jones said it best--that the entrance fee to consistent golf is learning to "subdue" or dominant hand, arm, side. Our lead side must lead--because the golf swing is a backhand.

I have been working on that for several weeks now-- and I can hit a ONE iron consistently straight. Don't try that if you can't stop your dominant hand from ruining every shot.

Riiight. And your handicap is what? 17 and going up!

[groundhogday]

I have decided to break this discussion into easy to digest bits of info.

Has anyone ever split logs or used an axe. If you swing a golf club like your chopping wood you're coming over the top.

Casting, well any good angler knows what casting is.

A golf swing IMHO is akin throwing a baseball. The hips lead followed by the arm(s), followed by the hand(s), followed by the shoulders. Energy is stored up on the right(back) foot and released on the front(left) foot.

But the most important part of the swing IMHO is balance. What ever type of swinger you are any drill that helps with balance is IMO going to help the most with proper sequence. Swing too hard, swing OTT, Cast, if your not balanced it will show up in a slice or pull hook . BTW F uck off horse balls but better players tend to pull hook versus hackers who hit a 75 yard slice, so if you not a lying POS your swing flaw is something us hackers want.

I say balance and tempo and any drill that emphasize this will make you a better golfer.

BTW Lory, Hogan was deathly afraid of a hook, everything he expoused in a golf swing would cause a hacker to hit 75 yard slices all day long. The modern golf swing is patterned off of Byron Nelson. Hogan was good and his wins after his car wreck was noble but he is and was an *******.
GHD

[Globalhelpdesk]

Damn Texas Jeff i fight the sways every time I play. I wish golf was as easy as proving the big bang theory.

G H D

[poe4soul]

The CORRECT first move down from the top of backswing position isn't to TURN, it is to DROP THE HANDS straight down (while maintaining the same shaft plane) toward your back hip. This is often done in combination with a slight forward move (or "bump") of the front hip towards the target, which initiates the forward weight transfer. THEN and only then should you initiate your turn. By doing this, you drop your hands under the backswing plane which forces you to reroute the club onto an inside-out path (you'll miss the ball if you don't) once you initiate your pivot with the "turn, plant, swing" move.

That's basically what I was saying. If you are coming OTT you have to get your club to feel like is behind you. Looking a the infamous hogan video, Hogan's arm is down at the end of his back swing. If he dropped his elbow it would have to be in his front or back pocket. So larry, if you can make your back swing that flat or on plane then with your elbow right at your side then no, you don't have to drop your elbow any. But you are a long way from having your elbow in the same position at Hogan demonstrates. But as I said earlier your swing is a two plane swing and his is a one plane swing. The positions of the two are completely different.

[famousdavis]

OTT is simply allowing our shoulders to pass our hips. Instead of "turn, plant, swing" you are swinging before you plant your front foot. You lag back. So your back hip blocks your arms from bringing the clubhead from the inside-- so it comes in from the outside, swipes across the ball outside-to-in and imparts slice spin.

There are many ways to reduce or eliminate that fault and replace it with the correct sequence. Among them is what Jim Flick teaches, to rehearse your swing like you are hitting a ball teed as waist height. Exaggerate the step toward the pitcher before you swing. Your hips will lead your shoulders: " Turn, plant, swing." Get that feeling, then quickly hit the golf ball before you lose it.

Another way is to swing with feet together or MUCH closer than you normally would. Keep weight on your front foot throughout your backswing like Hogan did. Sure makes it easier to get forward before impact. You won't lose any distance and you WILL hit draws because you will bring the clubhead from the inside.


Later

Hogan hated hitting a draw. He hit a fade.

[mentaloaf]

Holy shi t this is the first time I've opened this thread and it is a gem already! Larry nice of you to drop by and it sure took AlanGBaker a little while to get wind that you were posting, maybe you thought he was gone or something. Check this little thing out, worked really well for me, now I hit the ball straight and with a slight draw when I want to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXjDft0IiEo&feature=fvw

[noshuz]

I have decided to break this discussion into easy to digest bits of info.

Has anyone ever split logs or used an axe. If you swing a golf club like your chopping wood you're coming over the top.

Casting, well any good angler knows what casting is.

A golf swing IMHO is akin throwing a baseball. The hips lead followed by the arm(s), followed by the hand(s), followed by the shoulders. Energy is stored up on the right(back) foot and released on the front(left) foot.

But the most important part of the swing IMHO is balance. What ever type of swinger you are any drill that helps with balance is IMO going to help the most with proper sequence. Swing too hard, swing OTT, Cast, if your not balanced it will show up in a slice or pull hook . BTW F uck off horse balls but better players tend to pull hook versus hackers who hit a 75 yard slice, so if you not a lying POS your swing flaw is something us hackers want.

I say balance and tempo and any drill that emphasize this will make you a better golfer.

BTW Lory, Hogan was deathly afraid of a hook, everything he expoused in a golf swing would cause a hacker to hit 75 yard slices all day long. The modern golf swing is patterned off of Byron Nelson. Hogan was good and his wins after his car wreck was noble but he is and was an *******.
GHD

Has anyone heard of beating a dead horse? I should have highlighted 90% of this thread. Good god you ought to hear you hens cluck! Alan and Larry and everyone else (and you know who you are) need to get off the f.cking soapbox and quit trying to preach their point. Look back at how many times you've all beat this poor horse to oblivion and still haven't walked away from your computer feeling like you've proved your point. Your pathetic......and entertaining.......carry on! LOL!

[FreakOfNature]

Has anyone heard of beating a dead horse? I should have highlighted 90% of this thread. Good god you ought to hear you hens cluck! Alan and Larry and everyone else (and you know who you are) need to get off the f.cking soapbox and quit trying to preach their point. Look back at how many times you've all beat this poor horse to oblivion and still haven't walked away from your computer feeling like you've proved your point. Your pathetic......and entertaining.......carry on! LOL!

Some chopper lurking out there somewhere will cure their slice and hit their first draw tomorrow because of this thread.

Posting some tits as a gesture of goodwill and gratitude in exchange for all of the good advice in this thread would be the least you could do. Otherwise, well... you already know your options, and don't think you're exempt just because you started the thread...



FON

[A V Twiss]

And Hogan, ha. Look at his swing. He kept significant weight forward and had the best transition weight shift of any golfer EVER, according to McClane, Leadbetter, and others. Hogan found a way to accelerate through the ball with every club. Amazing because he did it from a wide stance. The golfer Hogan most admired at the time was Jimmy Demeret, who played with feet nearly together--

Larry

Having watched (many times) slow motion film of Hogan hitting a driver I would suggest that he certainly had one of the most dynamic transitions, and, I suspect, one of the most difficult to keep under control without hours and hours of practice. Given Hogan's work ethic I am not at all surprised he was so consistant. Any regular club golfer who plays more than he(she) practices would have a lot of trouble driving the hips like Hogan did.

[noshuz]

Some chopper lurking out there somewhere will cure their slice and hit their first draw tomorrow because of this thread.

Posting some tits as a gesture of goodwill and gratitude in exchange for all of the good advice in this thread would be the least you could do. Otherwise, well... you already know your options, and don't think you're exempt just because you started the thread... FON

LOL! That last post was post-6 pack pre-bedtime and I woke up thinking, I bet I get torched for that one! HA! Sorry to everyone I flamed for standing on their soapbox.....While standing on my soapbox!
Seriously though, My original post had nothing but good intentions but knowing if Larry was anywhere out there he wouldn't be able to resist posting. Especially with my illustration!
Man, I've created a monster.....

[The Purist]

This is good stuff. Nice work noshuz.

There are many ways to swing a club and get good results, but if you break them down they are all pretty similar. The difficult thing about discussing golf is that 10 guys with nearly identical swings would probably have 10 very unique swing thoughts and feelings on what they were doing. Ex. A guy that struggles with coming back too flat may focus on lifting the arms in the backswing, and still not get his hands as high as another player who naturally lifts there arms and tries to concentrate on taking the club back flatter.

The 90% of golfers have an OTT move is simply not true. I have seen many players who have the opposite problem and come too much from the inside. Some of the problems may be from poor self diagnosis....HB, i doubt your pull hooks come from an OTT move. Its just as easy to hit a pull hook while swinging from the inside. The initial direction of the ball flight is 90%+ determined by the direction the clubhead is facing at impact. That means the swingpath has very little (less than 10%) to do with initial direction. Pulls and Pushes are caused by closed or open clubfaces, not the swingpath.

A lot of OTT moves are caused by poor setup. If you want to hit the ball with a square path, than the shoulders should be square at address. You will almost never see someone slice a wedge, because the up and down shaft angle will keep both shoulders square when putting the hands on the club. The driver is usually the most OTT club, because the shaft is longer and sits a flatter angle. This causes people to reach for the club with their right hand, which brings the right shoulder forward, and thus causes the shoulders to be open to the target line at address. Its impossible to swing from the inside with that setup. Some people try to correct the move by putting more weight on their front foot and bringing their left shoulder out more...but this leads to balance problems. The best thing to do is leave the left shoulder square and drop the right shoulder lower until both shoulders are square.