There is ZERO proof of Evolution... the theory.

[spanqdoggie]

So a family member of mine says there is no proof of evolution, and after listening to him, I believe he is right.

He says there would be trillions of fossils filling the voids of all the minute changes over millions of years.

He said that making the leap from non-life to life is something the evolutionists want to avoid.

After I got the facts, this Mother's Day, I comprehend.

I agree now.

Basically, you have to be a retard to believe in evolution.

No one on this forum or any other forum can give 1 fact that helps the evolution cause.

Jackasses,

spank

[Kiwi Player]

The fact that this thing EVOLVED from a wolf is proof enough for me of the theory of evolution.

[mongrel]

The fact that this thing EVOLVED from a wolf is proof enough for me of the theory of evolution.

The very fact that the guys who own dogs like that still survive indicates that it may be time for Society to take its gloves off and remove some restrictions so that Darwin's "Only the stongest will survive." will pertain.

[famousdavis]

So a family member of mine says there is no proof of evolution, and after listening to him, I believe he is right.

He says there would be trillions of fossils filling the voids of all the minute changes over millions of years.

He said that making the leap from non-life to life is something the evolutionists want to avoid.

After I got the facts, this Mother's Day, I comprehend.

I agree now.

Basically, you have to be a retard to believe in evolution.

No one on this forum or any other forum can give 1 fact that helps the evolution cause.

Jackasses,

spank

I agree. When I was in my 20's and 30's I saw myself as a logical and scientific human being and I believed in what I saw and what has been proven by human beings. I used to think that religious people were either weak, easily led by others or less intelligent.

As I matured I began to realize that human beings seem to be wrong more than they are right and that science and ego are always intertwined. Who could possibly be smarter than humans, right? Look at all of the scientific means we have at our disposal to determine the age of a fossil.

I now believe that relying on science and other human beings is actually a less intelligent approach. It seems silly for me to put my faith in the theories of scientists who, over the years, seem to be proven wrong time and time again.

I have not been born again or anything like that at all. I have come to believe that there is a power out there greater than us humans and that it is responsible for what we see around us. I think it's unintelligent to believe that this greater power doesn't exist and that humans are the smartest beings in the universe. It seems illogical to me to believe that we evolved from microorganisms living in the water and that, somehow, we are the end result of evolution and the greatest thing that could ever have been created.

Further, I believe that human beings still do not have a firm grasp of time and how time can differ depending on the size and distance of objects.

In short, I don't believe that humans evolved from creatures living in the water. I think we have evolved over several million years from a more primitive species of human but not from apes.

[lorenzoinoc]

Ok, travel from the UK to France to Germany to Italy and then tell me there isn't proof of evolution. It's totally obvious.

[buddha33]

If this thread was created as an impersonation of Larry, then well played.

[Kiwi Player]

[spanqdoggie]

So you come home from work and there are 10 stones in a perfect line in front of your doorway. Perhaps the wind blew the stones there by chance and you go inside.

The next day there are 100 stones in a straight line in your driveway. You chalk it up to the wind.

The last day there are 600 stones in a perfect circle in your driveway. The wind must have done it by chance...

Ramp that chance up to a hummingbird flapping its wings 55 times a second (3300 times a minute) and flying backwards... yeah, just blind chance.

Retards.

It takes a hell of a lot more faith to believe in evolution than intelligent design.

I am now convinced of intelligent design.

p.s. Not one fact presented yet supporting evolution... Not one. Exactly as I expected.

[wofat]

Spanq - I'll bite on this glorious piece of Trolldom. Here are a few FACTS (which I note, are not equal to proof):

http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles...oofs-evolution

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_absol...y_of_evolution

Spank, the question is... why bring up a topic for which there is no correct answer, only beliefs? Trying to troll, trying to take up the vacant space left by Larry?

[buddha33]

I am now convinced of intelligent design.

The ultimate form of egotism.

[famousdavis]

Spanq - I'll bite on this glorious piece of Trolldom. Here are a few FACTS (which I note, are not equal to proof):

http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles...oofs-evolution

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_absol...y_of_evolution

Spank, the question is... why bring up a topic for which there is no correct answer, only beliefs? Trying to troll, trying to take up the vacant space left by Larry?

I expected a little more from a Ping Eye 2 player. Spank is not trolling.

[spanqdoggie]

Spanq - I'll bite on this glorious piece of Trolldom. Here are a few FACTS (which I note, are not equal to proof):

http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles...oofs-evolution

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_absol...y_of_evolution

Spank, the question is... why bring up a topic for which there is no correct answer, only beliefs? Trying to troll, trying to take up the vacant space left by Larry?

I read both links and they were laughably stupid. Both links were concerned with bacterial changes, although the bacteria stayed the same. Retards.

Yeah right, bacteria turned into a cheetah running 70 miles an hour; seriously, do you retards believe this?

As astronomer Robert Jastrow said: “Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."

--> Jastrow wrote that here: The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe, by Robert Jastrow, 1981, p.*19.

Wofat I love you, but those were some pretty retarded links and one would have to be retarded to think those are facts; those are pretty dumb suppositions...

My point is that no one will post, cut and paste, or show ONE fact that evolution is close to possible...

Not to mention the jump from non life to life. All life eats life. So if life jumped from non life, what did it eat to survive?

Retards.

spank

p.s. Wofat, that second link you provided contained this comment: "There is no proof for the "theory" of evolution, however there is a substantial amount of proof against it."

Check it out...

[famousdavis]

I read both links and they were laughably stupid. Both links were concerned with bacterial changes, although the bacteria stayed the same. Retards.

Yeah right, bacteria turned into a leopard running 70 miles an hour; seriously, do you retards believe this?

As astronomer Robert Jastrow said: “Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."

--> Jastrow wrote that here: The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe, by Robert Jastrow, 1981, p.*19.

Wofat I love you, but those were some pretty retarded links and one would have to be retarded to think those are facts; those are pretty dumb suppositions...

My point is that no one will post, cut and paste, or show ONE fact that evolution is close to possible...

Not to mention the jump from non life to life. All life eats life. So if life jumped from non life, what did it eat to survive?

Retards.

spank

p.s. Wofat, that second link you provided contained this comment: "There is no proof for the "theory" of evolution, however there is a substantial amount of proof against it."

Check it out...

I was watching some show the other day where they had various scientists talking about the big bang theory. Where they all seem to get stuck is the idea that all of this was created from nothing. After listening to these poindexters with their glasses and pens in the front pocket, it becomes blatantly obvious that they are simply theorizing. Most of them admit to gaps or "faults" in their theories and can't begin to explain how the universe could ever be contained. That makes sense because the human mind is clearly not capable of understanding certain concepts.

That's a tough nut for the human ego to swallow; that we are actually incapable of understanding certain concepts and that we are not smart enough to figure out where we came from or what all of this means.

I think it's pretty ignorant to assume that it all means nothing and that it all happened by chance. The idea that our universe was created out of nothing and that humans today are simply the result of millions of years of evolution seems pretty far fetched. If that's what you think, I assume that present day humans simply represent one stage of evolution and that in another million or so years we will have evolved into something else?

Again, this is where ego comes into play. Surely we can't evolve into anything better than this.

[spanqdoggie]

I was watching some show the other day where they had various scientists talking about the big bang theory. Where they all seem to get stuck is the idea that all of this was created from nothing. After listening to these poindexters with their glasses and pens in the front pocket, it becomes blatantly obvious that they are simply theorizing. Most of them admit to gaps or "faults" in their theories and can't begin to explain how the universe could ever be contained. That makes sense because the human mind is clearly not capable of understanding certain concepts.

That's a tough nut for the human ego to swallow; that we are actually incapable of understanding certain concepts and that we are not smart enough to figure out where we came from or what all of this means.

I think it's pretty ignorant to assume that it all means nothing and that it all happened by chance. The idea that our universe was created out of nothing and that humans today are simply the result of millions of years of evolution seems pretty far fetched. If that's what you think, I assume that present day humans simply represent one stage of evolution and that in another million or so years we will have evolved into something else?

Again, this is where ego comes into play. Surely we can't evolve into anything better than this.

Exactly, how can anyone look at the world and think it came about by a big explosion caused by nobody? Retarded. What next? ... a nuclear bomb creating a city of nice houses?

Edward Conklin, a biologist, stated that "The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of an unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop."

How many times do you have to blow up a print shop to get an unabridged dictionary? ... jackasses....

400 years ago or so, everyone on earth thought the earth was flat; people were killed for disagreeing....

Retards, all of you.

spank

p.s. It sure is quite quiet around here, but I expected that.

[buddha33]

p.s. It sure is quite around here, but I expected that.

[spanqdoggie]

Come on people!

Give me something to work with here!!!

[jt1135]

Man, this is like having an arguement between Laurie and 60sdude. All depends on which side of the fence you want to sit.

[CPS]

Let's see...


Went to 460cc and driving accuracy decreased.

Went to mallet putters and putts per round increased.

Went to carts and got fatter.

Gave up alcohol but increased chemical Diet Coke intake.

Finite oil supply but bought a F350.

Who cares about genetic codes and antibiotics if it still tastes like bacon.

Cancer in water supply is fine if it yields more natural gas.

War is fine as long as you aren't personally inconvenienced.

Ditto for landfills, nuclear waste, and other various pollution.

Their country should embrace austerity while ours continues to be fat and happy.

We are so advanced in spite of the billions starving worldwide and millions starving in this country.


The problem with "natural selection" is we obviously haven't made the "selections" to the betterment of our species.

You win... no such thing as evolution.

[spanqdoggie]

Man, this is like having an arguement between Laurie and 60sdude. All depends on which side of the fence you want to sit.

Politics is different than this discussion; anyone can have certain political beliefs...

I want to know how a hummingbird, flying backwards at 55 beats a second, dropped its wings and turned into a kangaroo...

Then the kangaroo evolved into a tulip.

One needs to have a sh!tload of FAITH to believe in that crap.

lol

spank

[NiftyNiblick]

One needs to have a sh!tload of FAITH to believe in that crap.

lol

spank

Not really.

If you breed a pair of wolves in captivity and bring the offspring up domestically like pets, they genetically evole into Canis lupis familiaris, the dometic dog, in only thirty generations.

This is the fastest evolution of a highly advanced animal species known, and it's been actually seen by humans. The DNA literally changes into that of a completely different species.

Not breed. Every breed of domestic dog is the same species. Different species--from wolf (Canis lupis) to dog (Canis lupis familiaris).

Evolution is no longer a theory.

[spanqdoggie]

Not really.

If you breed a pair of wolves in captivity and bring the offspring up domestically like pets, they genetically evole into Canis lupis familiaris, the dometic dog, in only thirty generations.

This is the fastest evolution of a highly advanced animal species known, and it's been actually seen by humans. The DNA literally changes into that of a completely different species.

Not breed. Every breed of domestic dog is the same species. Different species--from wolf (Canis lupis) to dog (Canis lupis familiaris).

Evolution is no longer a theory.

I quoted a few extremely prominent scientists above that state that they have NO FACTS on the evolution theory.

You also provided nothing but a wolf and dog? Are you serious? They are the same family; the Bible says they are created "according to their kinds" ... at least I got that in an email. dolphin sperm won't mate with a leopard...

So how does a dog turn into a rose or a hummingbird or a dolphin swimming at 50 miles an hour?

I have a friend that has a wolf. Wolves and dogs are part of the same family created by someone. Just like a house cat and lion and tiger are of the same family.... So how does a wolf turn into the hummingbird or polar bear? A wolf turns into a whale, then pigeon? You evolutionists believe in fairy tales, lol!!!

Show me how a wolf evolved into a hummingbird and then a cheetah running his ass at 70 miles an hour, then turned into a rattlesnake, then turned into a raccoon, then into a Peregrine falcon diving in the sky at over 230 miles an hour... and then the Peregrine falcon evolved into a human...

I cannot believe you kids fall for this crap; you are the same people screaming the earth was flat 400 years ago...

... lol!!!! A wolf and dog are different much?

I want to hear about your theory about life from NON LIFE.

That is where this evolution thing has to start, lol.

How did life come from non life?

rofl.

Retards,

spank

[dorkman53]

I've watched this thread with some interest, and one fact I can attest to is this: you can cross a wolf and a domestic dog to get a hybrid. They are not distinct species; more like subspecies. I have repaired eyelid lacerations on a child whose wolf hybrid dog attacked him.

[spanqdoggie]

I've watched this thread with some interest, and one fact I can attest to is this: you can cross a wolf and a domestic dog to get a hybrid. They are not distinct species; more like subspecies. I have repaired eyelid lacerations on a child whose wolf hybrid dog attacked him.

I am glad you are in good health Brian.

And you are absolutely correct.

[Kiwi Player]

I've watched this thread with some interest, and one fact I can attest to is this: you can cross a wolf and a domestic dog to get a hybrid. They are not distinct species; more like subspecies. I have repaired eyelid lacerations on a child whose wolf hybrid dog attacked him.

Good to hear from you Dorkman. Thanks for chiming in.

How's the golf game?

[oldplayer]

Good to hear from you Dorkman. Thanks for chiming in.

How's the golf game?

Likewise. Nice to hear from you Dorky.
And I learned something about you from just one post.
Are you a medico/surgeon?

[jmtbkr]

Spank....
C'mon man, this is the stupidist thread ever. Of course there is no evidence on either side. That doesn't make one side or the other a 'retard'.

I want my 15 minutes back since I read this thread!!! You owe me, bra...

[mongrel]

Man, this is like having an arguement between Laurie and 60sdude. All depends on which side of the fence you want to sit.

I am on the side of Devolution. "Devo" for short. You can whip it. Whip it good.

[Kiwi Player]

They didn't (shock, horror) EVOLVE did they?

The flightless birds of New Zealand are a principal feature of the 'edge ecology' of the country.* In an island environment isolated from the rest of the world for more than 80 million years, and free of mammal predators, a number of birds developed flightlessness and eccentric habits.* Each of them filled different ecological functions; moa and kakapo as forest browsers, takahe as grass eaters, and kiwi and wrens as ground insect eaters - roles taken by mammals in other ecosystems. Many of the birds are unafraid of humans, a common characteristic resulting from the absence of predators, which became deadly when human hunters arrived.

[mongrel]

They didn't (shock, horror) EVOLVE did they?

The flightless birds of New Zealand are a principal feature of the 'edge ecology' of the country.* In an island environment isolated from the rest of the world for more than 80 million years, and free of mammal predators, a number of birds developed flightlessness and eccentric habits.* Each of them filled different ecological functions; moa and kakapo as forest browsers, takahe as grass eaters, and kiwi and wrens as ground insect eaters - roles taken by mammals in other ecosystems. Many of the birds are unafraid of humans, a common characteristic resulting from the absence of predators, which became deadly when human hunters arrived.

The most important scientific and philosophical question regarding those birds is: "Do they taste just like chicken?"

[lorenzoinoc]

They didn't (shock, horror) EVOLVE did they?

The flightless birds of New Zealand are a principal feature of the 'edge ecology' of the country.* In an island environment isolated from the rest of the world for more than 80 million years, and free of mammal predators, a number of birds developed flightlessness and eccentric habits.* Each of them filled different ecological functions; moa and kakapo as forest browsers, takahe as grass eaters, and kiwi and wrens as ground insect eaters - roles taken by mammals in other ecosystems. Many of the birds are unafraid of humans, a common characteristic resulting from the absence of predators, which became deadly when human hunters arrived.

It sounds as though Our Lord must have used New Zealand for some early product testing.

[Kiwi Player]

It sounds as though Our Lord must have used New Zealand for some early product testing.

NZ is often referred to as Godzone. Clearly Our Lord doesn't like mammals much even though he created them all by perfect design.

[Kiwi Player]

The most important scientific and philosophical question regarding those birds is: "Do they taste just like chicken?"

I've always argued that setting up a worldwide chain of KFK restaurants would be the best way to save an endangered species.

[buddha33]

That's a tough nut for the human ego to swallow; that we are actually incapable of understanding certain concepts and that we are not smart enough to figure out where we came from or what all of this means.

Agreed. Yet it's far more egotistical to assume we were hand designed by some greater power. We exist on a planet in a solar system that's just one of an estimated 200 billion stars in our galaxy that's one of an estimated 150 billion galaxies in the known universe. There are more solar systems in the universe than there are grains of sand on our entire planet. Do you really think we're that special that some god guy took the time to hand-craft each and every thing that we see?

Speaking of cosmology, life on earth was created and destroyed several times over. The dinosaurs are evidence of one such episode. Also, I have an immense amount of back hair. That's evidence enough for me.

[buddha33]

It sounds as though Our Lord must have used New Zealand for some early product testing.

He's a crafty guy. He can't solve the world's hunger issues, but he did an amazing job with J-lo's ass.

[famousdavis]

Agreed. Yet it's far more egotistical to assume we were hand designed by some greater power. We exist on a planet in a solar system that's just one of an estimated 200 billion stars in our galaxy that's one of an estimated 150 billion galaxies in the known universe. There are more solar systems in the universe than there are grains of sand on our entire planet. Do you really think we're that special that some god guy took the time to hand-craft each and every thing that we see?

Speaking of cosmology, life on earth was created and destroyed several times over. The dinosaurs are evidence of one such episode. Also, I have an immense amount of back hair. That's evidence enough for me.

You are thinking of God as some guy up in a throne who is watching our every move. That's not what I'm saying at all. All I said is that I think there is a higher intelligence out there that is responsible for our galaxy. I don't believe it's a coincidence that the Earth just happens to be the right distance from the sun to allow life, nor do I believe we evolved to this point for that reason only.

[Kiwi Player]

You are thinking of God as some guy up in a throne who is watching our every move. That's not what I'm saying at all. All I said is that I think there is a higher intelligence out there that is responsible for our galaxy. I don't believe it's a coincidence that the Earth just happens to be the right distance from the sun to allow life, nor do I believe we evolved to this point for that reason only.

I think we are the subject of a fifth grade science experiment. That's why everything is setup so perfect.

[dorkman53]

In response to two questions:
1. My game is going reasonably well. I'm usually in the 80's, but a week ago had a round of 77, which isn't bad for somebody who is only getting out there 3 or 4 times per month.
2. Yes, I am an ophthalmologist.

I'm doing fine overall. Going to NYC this coming week for some sightseeing and to visit a family member.

[buddha33]

All I said is that I think there is a higher intelligence out there that is responsible for our galaxy.

That's fair, but it implies that something purposely took the time to cook all this up. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but the idea of a higher intelligence and of evolution aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that the Earth just happens to be the right distance from the sun to allow life, nor do I believe we evolved to this point for that reason only.

It's statistically impossible that there aren't other planets in the universe just like earth. There is life somewhere else. Physics and biology explain the rest.

[lorenzoinoc]

He's a crafty guy. He can't solve the world's hunger issues, but he did an amazing job with J-lo's ass.

He also created the scene at my gym. Recently a steady supply of young things been arriving. The scenery is great and some of them seem willing to have a fit older guy to play with. These young ones are in shape and have much to learn.

Thank you, Lord. You are indeed holy.

[Kiwi Player]

He also created the scene at my gym. Recently a steady supply of young things been arriving. The scenery is great and some of them seem willing to have a fit older guy to play with. These young ones are in shape and have much to learn.

Thank you, Lord. You are indeed holy.

Being a braggart is not a character trait approved by Our Lord.

[lorenzoinoc]

Being a braggart is not a character trait approved by Our Lord.

If that were true I wouldn't be this way. He is all-powerful.

Actually, I threw that post in as a welcome back to D-Man.

[Horseballs]

That's fair, but it implies that something purposely took the time to cook all this up. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but the idea of a higher intelligence and of evolution aren't mutually exclusive.




It's statistically impossible that there aren't other planets in the universe just like earth. There is life somewhere else. Physics and biology explain the rest.

I can prove the existence of God quite simply.

A) The fact that good people can be duped into paying $600 for a wedge proves the existence of Satan
B) Satan cannot exist without God
C) God must exist

[famousdavis]

That's fair, but it implies that something purposely took the time to cook all this up. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but the idea of a higher intelligence and of evolution aren't mutually exclusive.

Agreed


It's statistically impossible that there aren't other planets in the universe just like earth. There is life somewhere else. Physics and biology explain the rest.

I never said there wasn't life somewhere else. We could simply be an experiment on one of many planets just like ours. The problem with human beings is that we can only comprehend time, size, physics, etc. relative to our own size, time and physics. We base theory on what we think we know and think to have proved when we could be as far off right now as when we thought the earth was flat.

Every generation thinks it's the smartest. 100 years from now the new generation will look back at us and question how we could be so naive and stupid. Couldn't we have seen the obvious?

[oldplayer]

In response to two questions:
1. My game is going reasonably well. I'm usually in the 80's, but a week ago had a round of 77, which isn't bad for somebody who is only getting out there 3 or 4 times per month.
2. Yes, I am an ophthalmologist.

I'm doing fine overall. Going to NYC this coming week for some sightseeing and to visit a family member.

Thanks for the reply Dorkman. Enjoy your time away.

[buddha33]

Every generation thinks it's the smartest. 100 years from now the new generation will look back at us and question how we could be so naive and stupid. Couldn't we have seen the obvious?

Correct. In 100 years evolution will probably not be a theory but proven fact. This is the same process radio waves and atoms were theorized about before they were proven to exist. Just because scientists haven't captured enough evidence to prove their theory doesn't mean their hypothesis is false.

I agree with your sentiment that we're probably not intelligent enough to grasp how we arrived here. However, that doesn't nullify evolution.

[famousdavis]

Correct. In 100 years evolution will probably not be a theory but proven fact. This is the same process radio waves and atoms were theorized about before they were proven to exist. Just because scientists haven't captured enough evidence to prove their theory doesn't mean their hypothesis is false.

I agree with your sentiment that we're probably not intelligent enough to grasp how we arrived here. However, that doesn't nullify evolution.

It's pretty arrogant for you to assume that your way of thinking will be proven in 100 years. A humble man would admit that he's simply a man and has no idea what will happen in 100 years.

Let me ask you this - does there exist any type of phenomenon of which humans have no explanation? Isn't it true that scientists will always develop a theory for every type of phenomenon and then claim to have proven that theory? Doesn't that make you stop and question the motivation and ego involved in a human beings need to explain what goes on around him and whether or not a scientist's theory is based on fact rather than necessity?

[buddha33]

I'm arrogant for taking the stance that I believe evolution will probably be proven in 100 years? You can accuse me of being arrogant for a multitude of things, but I think this would be stretching it.

As your blasting these guys for their work to figure out the unknown, think of all the technology you enjoy today because of others like them.

[famousdavis]

I'm arrogant for taking the stance that I believe evolution will probably be proven in 100 years? You can accuse me of being arrogant for a multitude of things, but I think this would be stretching it.

As your blasting these guys for their work to figure out the unknown, think of all the technology you enjoy today because of others like them.

Blasting is a pretty silly term to use considering the fact that I was speaking of scientists who's goal is to prove a hypothesis rather than determine if it has enough data and evidence to support it.

I said nothing of scientists, programmers, etc. who have discovered things like electricity, computers, etc. Notice I use the word "discover" and not "invent".

Personally, I think computers, cell phones, the internet and facebook have made our lives worse.

There is no need for any of that technology. We only need it because someone else has it and we don't.

[NiftyNiblick]

I often wonder what other nonsense religious people would believe

on the very same quality of evidence

that they have available to them for defending the existence of their respective gods.

That a person can profess to be a "believer" and still be elected to a responsible public office is very disheartening to me,

but also very revealing as to why we're such a mess as a country.

.

[buddha33]

Blasting is a pretty silly term to use considering the fact that I was speaking of scientists who's goal is to prove a hypothesis rather than determine if it has enough data and evidence to support it.

I said nothing of scientists, programmers, etc. who have discovered things like electricity, computers, etc. Notice I use the word "discover" and not "invent".

Personally, I think computers, cell phones, the internet and facebook have made our lives worse.

There is no need for any of that technology. We only need it because someone else has it and we don't.

Well, I can't really argue the intent of the archaeological and physics communities as it relates to evolution. I would assume their intent is just like any other scientific process: Develop a hypothesis and seek evidence that either supports or rejects it. In my opinion, they've found enough to justify a continued path of discovering new evidence, which they have. Evidence

If you want to cast away that evidence as immaterial, that's your right. However, it's far more difficult to dismiss their evidence than an opinion like yours that's not supported by anything scientific at all:

It seems illogical to me to believe that we evolved from microorganisms living in the water and that, somehow, we are the end result of evolution and the greatest thing that could ever have been created.

[famousdavis]

Well, I can't really argue the intent of the archaeological and physics communities as it relates to evolution. I would assume their intent is just like any other scientific process: Develop a hypothesis and seek evidence that either supports or rejects it. In my opinion, they've found enough to justify a continued path of discovering new evidence, which they have. Evidence

If you want to cast away that evidence as immaterial, that's your right. However, it's far more difficult to dismiss their evidence than an opinion like yours that's not supported by anything scientific at all:

That's not true. All of my life I have been right 95% of the time. That's a better standard deviation than any of your so-called scientists.

Another thing we can't overlook is my golfing ability. I only play once or twice a week, never take lessons and never practice. Yet, I still shoot low 70's on a regular basis. The only way to explain that is devine intervention. Either that or I'm just extremely lucky and gifted. Maybe it's a bit of both.

[wofat]

So, if we're going to talk faith, lets talk about just how much faith you must have.

Spanq, you keep trollollloolling on and on about how god created this and that, and that you cannot get life from non-life. Well, what proof do you have that there was EVER no life?

FD, you speak of the earth being the perfect distance from the sun. Wow... must be god!! Oh wait, we have no proof that there IS any end to the universe and for all we know it is both limitless and infinite. Perhaps time is the same. Yet surely, no planet could be the perfect distance from it's sun?

Good grief. I need to start a religion and become one of the thousands so I can talk people into giving my organization 10% based on 'faith'.

[buddha33]

Another thing we can't overlook is my golfing ability. I only play once or twice a week, never take lessons and never practice. Yet, I still shoot low 70's on a regular basis. The only way to explain that is devine intervention. Either that or I'm just extremely lucky and gifted. Maybe it's a bit of both.

Now we're getting to something we can agree on.

[rooboy]

So, if we're going to talk faith, lets talk about just how much faith you must have.
Good grief. I need to start a religion and become one of the thousands so I can talk people into giving my organization 10% based on 'faith'.

I'm in. When all said and done, either HE created us or WE created Him ... I think it was the last.

[spanqdoggie]

2. Yes, I am an ophthalmologist.

[SoonerBS]

The whole idea behind a "higher intelligence" is that his ways, creations and actions are beyond your limited understanding or intellect. Science cannot prove evolution and its attempts have been weak and laughable. Still, it has become one of the major fallacies of mankind throughout history that he simply cannot accept the humility of a higher being. Man believes he has all the answers and that everything contrary to his limited intellect is foolishness. And yet, it has been man's intelligence that has caused all the problems on the earth.

It's hard, or nearly impossible for some to believe in a higher being because the idea is too far fetched for them. I get it. Fact is, there is no way to "prove" either side of this argument . . . . . . . . . . . in this life.

[NiftyNiblick]

Man believes he has all the answers and that everything contrary to his limited intellect is foolishness.

I don't have an inflated opinion of man's intellect. Absolutely not.

I believe that we're just intelligent enough to keep going when a higher life form should have already replaced our sorry asses.

We're just smart enough to stymie evolution a little bit.

But as for believers, I would ask them two questions.

Is the deity/creator all-powerful but not all-loving?

Is the deity/creator all-loving but not all-powerful?

Because one would have to be seriously lacking in both intellect and sanity to observe the universe and still believe that both could be true.

Consequently, I believe that the deity/creator is all imaginary.

I have no difficulty with those who choose to believe otherwise until they endeavor to integrate their religious beliefs with the laws of the land. That's what most bible-belt conservatives do, unfortunately.

[SoonerBS]

I don't have an inflated opinion of man's intellect. Absolutely not.

I believe that we're just intelligent enough to keep going when a higher life form should have already replaced our sorry asses.

We're just smart enough to stymie evolution a little bit.

But as for believers, I would ask them two questions.

Is the deity/creator all-powerful but not all-loving?

Is the deity/creator all-loving but not all-powerful?

Because one would have to be seriously lacking in both intellect and sanity to observe the universe and still believe that both could be true.

Consequently, I believe that the deity/creator is all imaginary.

I have no difficulty with those who choose to believe otherwise until they endeavor to integrate their religious beliefs with the laws of the land. That's what most bible-belt conservatives do, unfortunately.

Once again, you are trying to judge a higher being based upon your own limited intellect, but let me take this another way:

IF it is as Christians believe that God sent his son to grant salvation, AND that salvation is for those who obey him in this life, AND that same "salvation" is in the form of living with him in a place called Heaven that is promised to his believers to be far better than anything they have experienced on this earth, WHY would he want to solve all the problems man has caused on this earth and make this a "heaven on earth?" Would anyone want to listen to him in order to be saved if everything was great here? What appeal would Heaven have?

[wofat]

Still, it has become one of the major fallacies of mankind throughout history that he simply cannot accept the humility of a higher being. Man believes he has all the answers and that everything contrary to his limited intellect is foolishness. And yet, it has been man's intelligence that has caused all the problems on the earth.

So what you're saying is that it's much easier for you to believe in something that you cannot hear, see, smell, taste, touch, or have ANY shred of evidence exists, rather than something that is tangible but still has unknowns. It's not that i believe humans are supreme beings... it's that I require SOMETHING. Stories are easy to make up... that's why the world has over 20 major religions (with hundreds of separate sects/divisions), many of which completely disagree about the nature of god.

Does this mean there is no god/higher power? Absolutely not! However, there is physical evidence that points to the possibility of evolution. Note that the two are not mutually exclusive either.

I take this stance. If there is a god, he/she/ACDC gave me a brain, free thought, and free will, and expected me to use it.

[wofat]

IF it is as Christians believe that God sent his son to grant salvation, AND that salvation is for those who obey him in this life, AND that same "salvation" is in the form of living with him in a place called Heaven that is promised to his believers to be far better than anything they have experienced on this earth, WHY would he want to solve all the problems man has caused on this earth and make this a "heaven on earth?" Would anyone want to listen to him in order to be saved if everything was great here? What appeal would Heaven have?

Ooooh Me!! I love questions too!!

So, if this is the case, why would a loving god create humans in the first place, who's sole purpose it is to praise and obey so they can get this mystical treat upon death? Is god that lacking in self-confidence, or friends? Is it all a game... like some sort of heavenly reality tv?

Oh, wait... I know. It's "beyond our understanding". Well, that is quite a convenient idea. I think I'll start using it when explaining the decisions I make at work.

[lorenzoinoc]

Sooner's convinced me religion was invented by ancestors of the guys that live out of shopping carts.

I believe in something like a god, but it's more an association of Ziploc bags that are able to communicate with one another if placed properly in kitchen drawers. You can tell if they're placed properly by whether they talk.

Alright, before you start the doubting Thomas thing, I'm not just suggesting any Ziploc bag, it's generally the thicker ones because their brains need to go somewhere, right? Yes, their brains are transparent, humans aren't smart enough to have transparent brains.

Anyways, these Ziploc bags communicate perfectly without having to talk, even though they can and often do. It's a supernatural thing, if you have faith you don't question this.

In closing, nothing's more perfect than a Ziploc bag.

By the way, if anything seems out of whack with this and you have questions, ask away. I have convenient answers to all of them.

[SoonerBS]

Sooner's convinced me religion was invented by ancestors of the guys that live out of shopping carts.

I believe in something like a god, but it's more an association of Ziploc bags that are able to communicate with one another if placed properly in kitchen drawers. You can tell if they're placed properly by whether they talk.

Alright, before you start the doubting Thomas thing, I'm not just suggesting any Ziploc bag, it's generally the thicker ones because their brains need to go somewhere, right? Yes, their brains are transparent, humans aren't smart enough to have transparent brains.

Anyways, these Ziploc bags communicate perfectly without having to talk, even though they can and often do. It's a supernatural thing, if you have faith you don't question this.

In closing, nothing's more perfect than a Ziploc bag.

By the way, if anything seems out of whack with this and you have questions, ask away. I have convenient answers to all of them.

It's OK, I understand. Your background ancestors believed in a plethora of gods instead of just ONE intelligent being. After examining your ancestral history, I can understand your belief in the Ziploc bag.

Carry on.

[buddha33]

I really don't understand this disdain for scientists who are trying to explain the coming of our existence. Yes, they're going to be wrong. Yes, sometimes their case isn't iron clad. But that's how the scientific process works. Should we all just throw our hands up and say, "we're too dumb to ever comprehend it!". If that's the policy, then we wouldn't have the vast amount of knowledge we do including revolutionary progress in medical technology.

"Man believes he has all the answers and that everything contrary to his limited intellect is foolishness."

Sooner, you'll have to explain how scientists who developed a hypothesis and are gathering evidence of their theory believe they have all the answers. They're simply trying to find answers. They may come up short, but shouldn't they at least make an attempt.

Again, I think the real ego here is that we must feel that this all has a purpose and that we were put here for some reason or experiment. That theory doesn't line up to me at all, especially when it's rolled into some story developed by men, about men, and from only the human perspective.

[SoonerBS]

Ooooh Me!! I love questions too!!

So, if this is the case, why would a loving god create humans in the first place, who's sole purpose it is to praise and obey so they can get this mystical treat upon death? Is god that lacking in self-confidence, or friends? Is it all a game... like some sort of heavenly reality tv?

Oh, wait... I know. It's "beyond our understanding". Well, that is quite a convenient idea. I think I'll start using it when explaining the decisions I make at work.

Wofat, as I have posted on this forum before, my wife is a devout Christian. Therefore, I have studied the Bible many times over so I can have the knowledge I need to argue with her and all the other "so called" Christian believers.

With this fact in place, let me ask you a question -- which god are you talking about in this post? Christians claim to follow the God of their Bible. That god, who is believed to have created everything we know and see on this earth and in the universe, NEVER forced anyone to worship him, or obey him. He gave his creation freedom of choice to do what they want to do. However, he also set the rules on how someone can join him in Heaven for the rest of eternity. So, those who want to go to heaven can obey him. Those who do not, can live life as they please.

If people don't want to believe in an intelligent designer, that is their prerogative. If they don't want to be a Christian, that is their prerogative, too. To each his own. Personally, I think a lot of animosity towards the Christian views comes from an underlying guilt of most men because they believe there is a possibility that the Christian may be right. The diversion to this is just to break life down to the simplicity of a Ziploc bag.

[NiftyNiblick]

Once again, you are trying to judge a higher being based upon your own limited intellect.......

........"salvation" is in the form of living with him in a place called Heaven that is promised to his believers to be far better than anything they have experienced on this earth,

Well, here's the thing, Sooner. Only WE know if we're being loved by ANYBODY or not. Even another human who wants to love us the way he or she chooses to love us doesn't really love us at all. And the same would apply to an omnipotent deity.

Also, "everlasting life" with anyone anywhere sounds like a horrific nightmare to me.

All this being said, I have no problem with people believing in their gods.


But I also know for certain that none of them have any valid evidence to justify imposing their faith on me through provisions in the law of the land.

The Taliban and Sharia law do this in Islamic nations. Conservative Christians try to do it right here as well. I don't believe that any effort to oppose this is too extreme. That's one belief that I have.

[SoonerBS]

I really don't understand this disdain for scientists who are trying to explain the coming of our existence. Yes, they're going to be wrong. Yes, sometimes their case isn't iron clad. But that's how the scientific process works. Should we all just throw our hands up and say, "we're too dumb to ever comprehend it!". If that's the policy, then we wouldn't have the vast amount of knowledge we do including revolutionary progress in medical technology.

"Man believes he has all the answers and that everything contrary to his limited intellect is foolishness."

Sooner, you'll have to explain how scientists who developed a hypothesis and are gathering evidence of their theory believe they have all the answers. They're simply trying to find answers. They may come up short, but shouldn't they at least make an attempt.

Again, I think the real ego here is that we must feel that this all has a purpose and that we were put here for some reason or experiment. That theory doesn't line up to me at all, especially when it's rolled into some story developed by men, about men, and from only the human perspective.

I am not under the onus of having to explain anything against my desire. After all, I am the only one who is REAL in this life and you guys are just the figments of my deranged mind who have come to keep me entertained.

[SoonerBS]

Personally, I think we are all part of a computer program that keeps us thinking that we are living a real life on a place called earth while as a fact our bodies are being used by machines as living batteries.

Hey, that sounds like a great story, I think I'll write up a movie script and call it, "Living In A Computer Program!"

[buddha33]

Personally, I think a lot of animosity towards the Christian views comes from an underlying guilt of most men because they believe there is a possibility that the Christian may be right.

<<<BUZZER>>>> Nope. It's because Christians must make everyone believe what they believe. There's no alternative point of view allowed. And if you have one, then you've shunned the offering of god and will spend eternal damnation in hell.

So let's see here. The known universe is estimated to be 14.5 billion years old. And my life on earth is less than a millionth of that time. But if I make the wrong choice about this Jesus Christ guy, then I get to spend an eternity in hell. Sorry, you left logic at the door if you buy that one.

[Horseballs]

<<<BUZZER>>>> Nope. It's because Christians must make everyone believe what they believe. There's no alternative point of view allowed. And if you have one, then you've shunned the offering of god and will spend eternal damnation in hell.

So let's see here. The known universe is estimated to be 14.5 billion years old. And my life on earth is less than a millionth of that time. But if I make the wrong choice about this Jesus Christ guy, then I get to spend an eternity in hell. Sorry, you left logic at the door if you buy that one.

The world is only 5,000 years old. Fossils of dinosaurs are tests of faith.

[wofat]

<<<BUZZER>>>> Nope. It's because Christians must make everyone believe what they believe. There's no alternative point of view allowed. And if you have one, then you've shunned the offering of god and will spend eternal damnation in hell.

Exactly. What's worse is that it's crept into our politics. Isn't the lack of religious freedom one of the key reasons the pilgrims left England? They wanted to live in a society where they could practice whichever religion they wanted (or none at all), and not be forced into the religion of the monarchy. But today, we now have lots of folks who seem to believe that we have a "Christian country" that should abide by Christianity and it's beliefs.

Buddhists, Hindi's, and most other religions don't bother me at all. They're not telling me how to live my life or trying to force me into their belief system.

[lorenzoinoc]

It's OK, I understand. Your background ancestors believed in a plethora of gods instead of just ONE intelligent being. After examining your ancestral history, I can understand your belief in the Ziploc bag.

Carry on.

I'm actually switching from Ziploc bags to paper clips. You know how they say God is everywhere? Well that's certainly true for paper clips.

Ziplocs aren't hard to find but to say they're everywhere requires a whole lot of thinly constructed sidestep arguments I'd have a staff create if my religion had a collection plate but it doesn't.

With paper clips you just open any desk drawer and you can see God.

[Horseballs]

I'm actually switching from Ziploc bags to paper clips. You know how they say God is everywhere? Well that's certainly true for paper clips.

Ziplocs aren't hard to find but to say they're everywhere requires a whole lot of thinly constructed sidestep arguments I'd have a staff create if my religion had a collection plate but it doesn't.

With paper clips you just open any desk drawer and you can see God.

I'd go with cigarette butts. Those things are everywhere.

[Kiwi Player]

The world is only 5,000 years old. Fossils of dinosaurs are tests of faith.

What???

The world is only 2012 years old isn't it?

[lorenzoinoc]

The supreme irony in all of this is humans have been selected to harbor religious superstition. Having faith in an afterlife and supreme being must make one more fit to survive.

[famousdavis]

What???

The world is only 2012 years old isn't it?

I believe there is a higher power (higher intelligence, God, supreme being). My wife is Catholic and is bringing my daughters up Catholic and I just went to my daughter's first communion. Do I think that her going to CCD classes and becoming Catholic well help her and make her a better person? Absolutely. Not so much because of that particular religion's beliefs but simply because she is part of something that teaches her solid values and makes her feel good about herself. That's why I think most people belong to one religion or another.

To me, that's a different discussion than evolution/ big bang theory vs. a higher intelligence creating all of this.

I guess you can't really call the example I'm about to give "proof" because one could argue that the belief in itself is what caused the change in mental health.

Many people who struggle with addiction, depression, anger issues and sociopathic behavior have found that when they align their beliefs with God and align their behaviors with His will, rather than their own, their lives immediately begin to get better. Many report that their lives are completely turned around and better than ever imagined. They often describe it as a miracle. Many of these people do not belong to any formal religion and instead have simply become spiritual and have tried to develop a relationship with a higher power of their choosing.

Many of these people were atheists or agnostics to begin with and first resorted to therapy, exercise, reading self help books, etc. All of those things helped short term but eventually things got bad again. It wasn't until they developed a relationship with a higher being that they started noticing a change.

Some people will laugh at this but I would call that proof of some kind of higher power. The argument against that would be that these people simply started acting like good people and that's why their lives became better. The problem with that is that one human's idea of what is good can vary greatly with another's idea of what is good.
A muslim thinks it's good to keep his wife illiterate and covered from head to toe ( not a bad idea, actually)

I believe that there are certain natural laws, not created by man, that rule the universe. They are not scientific laws but rather laws of right and wrong. If you align your actions with these laws you tend to make the right choices in life and you live a life of happiness with lots of friends, good relationships, etc. If you do not then the opposite happens. This has nothing to do with chance accidents, disease, etc. It's more in a general sense.

Where do these natural laws come from? Did humans invent them? I think not. Humans are barbaric by nature and left without something to guide us toward a more spiritual side we'd spend all day trying to kill one another.

The "id" is our natural urge to do whatever we want, whenever we want. It's fun in the short run.

The "ego" is what we think we should do and what our brain tells us is the logical thing to do. This in itself is not enough to fight off the "id".

The "superego" is our morality and inner guide to what is right and wrong, i.e-it is our conscience. I think the superego is God's will rather than something we try to get to through logical means.

That's why so many people want some kind of spirituality in their lives because without it they behave poorly, are not aligned with the natural order of things and become suicidal, incarcerated, diseased or dead.

Just my two cents.

[mongrel]

I believe there is a higher power (higher intelligence, God, supreme being). My wife is Catholic and is bringing my daughters up Catholic and I just went to my daughter's first communion. Do I think that her going to CCD classes and becoming Catholic well help her and make her a better person? Absolutely. Not so much because of that particular religion's beliefs but simply because she is part of something that teaches her solid values and makes her feel good about herself. That's why I think most people belong to one religion or another.

To me, that's a different discussion than evolution/ big bang theory vs. a higher intelligence creating all of this.

I guess you can't really call the example I'm about to give "proof" because one could argue that the belief in itself is what caused the change in mental health.

Many people who struggle with addiction, depression, anger issues and sociopathic behavior have found that when they align their beliefs with God and align their behaviors with His will, rather than their own, their lives immediately begin to get better. Many report that their lives are completely turned around and better than ever imagined. They often describe it as a miracle. Many of these people do not belong to any formal religion and instead have simply become spiritual and have tried to develop a relationship with a higher power of their choosing.

Many of these people were atheists or agnostics to begin with and first resorted to therapy, exercise, reading self help books, etc. All of those things helped short term but eventually things got bad again. It wasn't until they developed a relationship with a higher being that they started noticing a change.

Some people will laugh at this but I would call that proof of some kind of higher power. The argument against that would be that these people simply started acting like good people and that's why their lives became better. The problem with that is that one human's idea of what is good can vary greatly with another's idea of what is good.
A muslim thinks it's good to keep his wife illiterate and covered from head to toe ( not a bad idea, actually)

I believe that there are certain natural laws, not created by man, that rule the universe. They are not scientific laws but rather laws of right and wrong. If you align your actions with these laws you tend to make the right choices in life and you live a life of happiness with lots of friends, good relationships, etc. If you do not then the opposite happens. This has nothing to do with chance accidents, disease, etc. It's more in a general sense.

Where do these natural laws come from? Did humans invent them? I think not. Humans are barbaric by nature and left without something to guide us toward a more spiritual side we'd spend all day trying to kill one another.

The "id" is our natural urge to do whatever we want, whenever we want. It's fun in the short run.

The "ego" is what we think we should do and what our brain tells us is the logical thing to do. This in itself is not enough to fight off the "id".

The "superego" is our morality and inner guide to what is right and wrong, i.e-it is our conscience. I think the superego is God's will rather than something we try to get to through logical means.

That's why so many people want some kind of spirituality in their lives because without it they behave poorly, are not aligned with the natural order of things and become suicidal, incarcerated, diseased or dead.

Just my two cents.

The truly beautiful thing about all this is that we will not know until we have died and then we will certainly find out or there will be nothing. So if you believe in Nothing Everafter and do not believe in God or don't know or don't care, then you lives your life and takes your chances. Me, I would ask the classical question: "Do you feel lucky today, punk?"

[CPS]

Humans are barbaric by nature and left without something to guide us toward a more spiritual side we'd spend all day trying to kill one another.

You need to take a few anthropology courses. Most primitive cultures we've been able to study (such as aborigines, indians, pygmies) achieve a perfect equilibrium with their environment and rarely, if ever, war with each other over natural resources.

The big warlike societies of the ancients were usually spurred on by their respective organized religions. George Carlin said it best "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason."

I'm fine with believing in a great architect of the universe... as long as it doesn't involve collection plates, tax exempt status, political influence, or killing the person whose God doesn't look like your God.

[buddha33]

You need to take a few anthropology courses. Most primitive cultures we've been able to study (such as aborigines, indians, pygmies) achieve a perfect equilibrium with their environment and rarely, if ever, war with each other over natural resources.

The big warlike societies of the ancients were usually spurred on by their respective organized religions. George Carlin said it best "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason."

I'm fine with believing in a great architect of the universe... as long as it doesn't involve collection plates, tax exempt status, political influence, or killing the person whose God doesn't look like your God.

Well said, sir.

[famousdavis]

Well said, sir.

Not well said at all. Wars are always fought over land and money. Religion is often used as the scapegoat and is never the primary reason for war. People will refer to a "holy war" but in reality it's one society's interest infringing upon another society's interest.

Once again, it doesn't appear that anyone on this forum is capable of comprehending the idea that you can believe in God and not belong to any organized religion.

[buddha33]

FD, I've never met someone with a more binary way of looking at the world.

BTW, this is not what Spank was fishing for. We're being way too cordial.

[SoonerBS]

Exactly. What's worse is that it's crept into our politics. Isn't the lack of religious freedom one of the key reasons the pilgrims left England? They wanted to live in a society where they could practice whichever religion they wanted (or none at all), and not be forced into the religion of the monarchy. But today, we now have lots of folks who seem to believe that we have a "Christian country" that should abide by Christianity and it's beliefs.

Buddhists, Hindi's, and most other religions don't bother me at all. They're not telling me how to live my life or trying to force me into their belief system.

You name me one Pilgrim, and give me proof, that came over here because they didn't want to be around religion and I'll kiss your black ass.

Guys, if your going to use history to prove your points, first KNOW your history, and second, quit pasting your views on what people in the past believed, this is a gross error.

[SoonerBS]

You need to take a few anthropology courses. Most primitive cultures we've been able to study (such as aborigines, indians, pygmies) achieve a perfect equilibrium with their environment and rarely, if ever, war with each other over natural resources.

The big warlike societies of the ancients were usually spurred on by their respective organized religions. George Carlin said it best "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason."

I'm fine with believing in a great architect of the universe... as long as it doesn't involve collection plates, tax exempt status, political influence, or killing the person whose God doesn't look like your God.

Yeah, there's an objective source towards the discussion of evolution. By the way, I've taken three . . . . .

[famousdavis]

You need to take a few anthropology courses. Most primitive cultures we've been able to study (such as aborigines, indians, pygmies) achieve a perfect equilibrium with their environment and rarely, if ever, war with each other over natural resources.

The big warlike societies of the ancients were usually spurred on by their respective organized religions. George Carlin said it best "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason."

I'm fine with believing in a great architect of the universe... as long as it doesn't involve collection plates, tax exempt status, political influence, or killing the person whose God doesn't look like your God.

I have taken anthropology in college as well as several other classes in sociology. College is not exactly the kind of place where you learn much about believing in a higher power. If anything most of the classes I took were directly opposed to anything that challenged evolution.

Indians fought over land with other tribes all the time. They certainly weren't fighting over religion. Pygmies? You want to use pygmies as a basis for your argument? They still live in grass huts like a bunch of savages. Damn shorties.

George Carlin is not funny.

[CPS]

Not well said at all. Wars are always fought over land and money. Religion is often used as the scapegoat and is never the primary reason for war. People will refer to a "holy war" but in reality it's one society's interest infringing upon another society's interest.

Whoa... hold on... I may agree here.... but a few threads ago we are reminded that this country was founded by those seeking religious freedom... so if religion was a scapegoat, as you suggest, for the economics of the New World... then why should religion be any part of this country now?

[buddha33]

Can someone summarize the argument in this thread against evolution? I think I missed it. We got sidetracked on a more existential topic of whether or not there's a god which isn't really the same discussion.

[famousdavis]

Whoa... hold on... I may agree here.... but a few threads ago we are reminded that this country was founded by those seeking religious freedom... so if religion was a scapegoat, as you suggest, for the economics of the New World... then why should religion be any part of this country now?

My only argument here is evolution vs. a higher power creating what we see today. I'm not here to debate religion, although I honestly don't believe war is over religiion.

Freedom from religion was not the primary reason people came to America. The primary reason was to have freedom from England and for the opportunity to own their own land.

I never said religion should be a part of our government. Of course it's part of this country because a lot of people are religious. I believe in separation of church and state. I hate the idea of someone telling me what I should believe in.

[CPS]

My only argument here is evolution vs. a higher power creating what we see today. I'm not here to debate religion, although I honestly don't believe war is over religiion.

Freedom from religion was not the primary reason people came to America. The primary reason was to have freedom from England and for the opportunity to own their own land.

I never said religion should be a part of our government. Of course it's part of this country because a lot of people are religious. I believe in separation of church and state. I hate the idea of someone telling me what I should believe in.

Gotcha... I'm coming off as horribly Northeast Liberal here which I assure you I am not. Some of my best buds are New Hampshire libertarians yet we hang out together just fine. I'm sure most of us on GR would have some kick ass rounds of golf.

If anything I am Federalist believing that with 50 truly autonomous states, one finds the state that annoys you the least and you move there. That's the beauty...

It's a system even the Republicans believed in until they started legislating things like Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind.

[buddha33]

My only argument here is evolution vs. a higher power creating what we see today.

Yet you haven't explained why you feel these are mutually exclusive. To say, "it's not logical" makes it all about your opinion and nothing about facts. It's not logical that I can talk to my wife in the middle of a desert on a cell phone. Yet it works...and scientists figured out why. Did god make it all possible? Maybe. But that doesn't mean the radio waves don't exist.

[famousdavis]

Yet you haven't explained why you feel these are mutually exclusive. To say, "it's not logical" makes it all about your opinion and nothing about facts. It's not logical that I can talk to my wife in the middle of a desert on a cell phone. Yet it works...and scientists figured out why. Did god make it all possible? Maybe. But that doesn't mean the radio waves don't exist.

I think evolution is absolutely a possibility although it makes you wonder if what evolved was predestined by a higher power. Is it the natural order of things that when you have a planet composed of certain elements, close enough to a star, that humans will eventually come into existence through evolution? Then, once certain discoveries are made, technological advances suddenly move at a rapid pace and ensure extinction in a relatively short period of time? It's hard for me to grasp the idea that we came from nothing and that there is no purpose to any of it.

[alangbaker]

I think evolution is absolutely a possibility although it makes you wonder if what evolved was predestined by a higher power. Is it the natural order of things that when you have a planet composed of certain elements, close enough to a star, that humans will eventually come into existence through evolution? Then, once certain discoveries are made, technological advances suddenly move at a rapid pace and ensure extinction in a relatively short period of time? It's hard for me to grasp the idea that we came from nothing and that there is no purpose to any of it.

That's the thing that really scares people, isn't it?

If there isn't someone—a creator—to give our lives meaning, then how can it mean anything?

Well I say: you make your own meaning.

[spanqdoggie]

Can someone summarize the argument in this thread against evolution? I think I missed it. We got sidetracked on a more existential topic of whether or not there's a god which isn't really the same discussion.

Agreed.

Let's get back to how sand and saltwater from a big uncontrolled explosion caused life.... That life 'created' would then have to eat life, to exist, as all life eats life, but there is no life to eat...

Impossible; if you disagree, post proof here....

NON LIFE TO LIFE!!!

Come on kids, give me something to work with... we have to start at kindergarten before moving on to the first grade; let's start at life coming from non life....

How did life come from non life?

How did I come from NOTHING; non life?

Wofat provided some ridiculous link that said we had a tail before.

A spider monkey climbed up on me in the dark, when I was in Manous (Brasil) and his tail was fabulous and useful; like a fifth hand...

A leopard needs its tail, also, to guide it, when chasing its prey...

lol. So humans sat for millions of years on an 8 inch tail, then 7 inch tail, then 6 inch tail, then 5 inch tail, then 4 inch tail, then 3 inch tail...

Every animal that exists needs their tail. Why would a leopard or spider monkey need to lose its tail?


Retards,

All of you,

spank

[rooboy]

That's the thing that really scares people, isn't it?

If there isn't someone—a creator—to give our lives meaning, then how can it mean anything?

Well I say: you make your own meaning.

Alan, when the sun disappears(and everything else with it),everyone will then realise there is no meaning. People should take comfort in the fact we all end up the same.......dust and bones.

[wofat]

Agreed.
NON LIFE TO LIFE!!!

Come on kids, give me something to work with... we have to start at kindergarten before moving on to the first grade; let's start at life coming from non life....

How did life come from non life?

How did I come from NOTHING; non life?

In order for this to make any sense as an argument, you must first prove the basis of your argument, that there ever was NON-LIFE. How do you know that the cosmos and life is not infinite and never ending?

[buddha33]

NON LIFE TO LIFE!!!

Microbes

Insane in the membrane.

[famousdavis]

That's the thing that really scares people, isn't it?

If there isn't someone—a creator—to give our lives meaning, then how can it mean anything?

Well I say: you make your own meaning.

It doesn't scare me at all. If I die and then go into the earth and become fertilizer for future plants I really don't care. If not...bonus.

I'm not talking about a creator giving our individual lives meaning. I'm talking about the meaning behind everything that has happened since the earth came into existence.

I think of us as more of an experiment than the children of a higher being. I don't believe the higher power necessarily cares what we do. He's basically said "here are my natural laws. follow them and you will lead a happy and productive life. Stray from them and you will be miserable.". For the most part that is true and proven. I don't believe we can make our own moral laws. I think they need to come from the creator. It's kind of like an iPod trying to figure out what's wrong with itself when it breaks down. It needs the inventor to fix it, or to at least have a secondary recovery program that will provide it with a path toward salvation.

Now that I've explained everything...

[wofat]

It doesn't scare me at all. If I die and then go into the earth and become fertilizer for future plants I really don't care. If not...bonus.

I'm not talking about a creator giving our individual lives meaning. I'm talking about the meaning behind everything that has happened since the earth came into existence.

I think of us as more of an experiment than the children of a higher being. I don't believe the higher power necessarily cares what we do. He's basically said "here are my natural laws. follow them and you will lead a happy and productive life. Stray from them and you will be miserable.". For the most part that is true and proven. I don't believe we can make our own moral laws. I think they need to come from the creator. It's kind of like an iPod trying to figure out what's wrong with itself when it breaks down. It needs the inventor to fix it, or to at least have a secondary recovery program that will provide it with a path toward salvation.

Now that I've explained everything...

Are you saying that Steve Jobs is/was God?! Hmm, I may now have to re-evaluate.

[buddha33]

He's basically said "here are my natural laws. follow them and you will lead a happy and productive life. Stray from them and you will be miserable.". For the most part that is true and proven.

This might seem logical to a healthy, upper middle class male born and raised in the richest country on the planet. How does that logic work out for a 6 year old girl in Taiwan whose life has meant nothing but sexual abuse in a child prostitution ring? Or the kids that starve to death daily in Somalia. Or even children in this country born with chronic illness. Your theories on god are based solely from your perspective. Isn't that the same reason you ridiculed scientists for trying to prove evolution?

[famousdavis]

This might seem logical to a healthy, upper middle class male born and raised in the richest country on the planet. How does that logic work out for a 6 year old girl in Taiwan whose life has meant nothing but sexual abuse in a child prostitution ring? Or the kids that starve to death daily in Somalia. Or even children in this country born with chronic illness. Your theories on god are based solely from your perspective. Isn't that the same reason you ridiculed scientists for trying to prove evolution?

Let's not deviate from the conversation by focusing on the exceptions out there that make up .0001% of the population. You're smarter than that, I hope.

When did I ridicule scientists?

If you want to have an educated discussion I'll be here. However, I won't get invovled in one that uses the worst examples that represent a small minority to make their case. That's just too common.

[NiftyNiblick]

The complete collapse of the American Empire, now proceding with unstoppable momentum, may be directly attributed to our failure to seriously commit to good, public education for all.

If this thread doesn't prove it beyond all sane argument..........I can't even finish the sentence.

This thread clearly does prove it.

On a related subject, the origin of all existence is conveniently made into an argumant for religion by some for one simple reason: the human mind cannot comprehend backwards infinity. We can comprehend more of the same forever, but we can't comprehend what was before the beginning, and then, what was before that. But not being able to understand is hardly a solid argument in favor of a creator who was always around so that's the end of that!

A better argument would be that this mental shortcoming indicates man is NOT the pinnacle of evolution, and that a smarter species is eventually coming along to replace us.

Personally, I think that will be a "blessing" for the rest of the universe.

[buddha33]

Let's not deviate from the conversation by focusing on the exceptions out there that make up .0001% of the population.

The exceptions

When did I ridicule scientists?

I was watching some show the other day where they had various scientists talking about the big bang theory. Where they all seem to get stuck is the idea that all of this was created from nothing. After listening to these poindexters with their glasses and pens in the front pocket, it becomes blatantly obvious that they are simply theorizing. Most of them admit to gaps or "faults" in their theories and can't begin to explain how the universe could ever be contained. That makes sense because the human mind is clearly not capable of understanding certain concepts.

The problem with human beings is that we can only comprehend time, size, physics, etc. relative to our own size, time and physics. We base theory on what we think we know and think to have proved when we could be as far off right now as when we thought the earth was flat.

Isn't it true that scientists will always develop a theory for every type of phenomenon and then claim to have proven that theory? Doesn't that make you stop and question the motivation and ego involved in a human beings need to explain what goes on around him and whether or not a scientist's theory is based on fact rather than necessity?

That's a tough nut for the human ego to swallow; that we are actually incapable of understanding certain concepts and that we are not smart enough to figure out where we came from or what all of this means.

Your last few posts are in direct contradiction with your own quotes.